Wizards, CON or DEX

[TheCrowing1432]

Every time someone in our group rolls up a low level wizard this debate pops up when it comes to stat allocation. Obviously INT is prioritized over all else, but whats the secondary?

On the CON side, you get more health which helps you survive, though the wizards d4 isnt much to work with.

DEX on the other hand provides AC which can help you avoid damage in those crucial low levels.

Obviously this concern doesnt matter once the wizard adds things like invisibility or mirror image to his arsenal, but before that, which does the playground think is more crucial to a novice wizard

[Malroth]

Con definately Con, Even with Max DEX and Mage armor enemy bruisers are going to be hitting you 50+% of the time if you're ever in weapon range so being able to survive a hit or sucessfully pass a Fort save is definately superior to dropping the opponents accuracy from 70% to 60


Or take Fey Mysteries Initiate and Use INT for HP instead then sure go DEX

[Gildedragon]

Dex and get necropolitanized

[darksolitaire]

Dex and get necropolitanized

You can't do this before level three, and it isn't all that good in low levels since it removes the 9 hp filter and sets you back a level. It's still great for mid levels though.

[tropical_punch]

I'm a big fan of Pumping INT, then DEX, dumping CON, and taking faerie mysteries initiate, and then becoming a necropolitan.

This is of course, assuming you bring some sort of body armour to survive all the books your DM will throw at you :P

[Andezzar]

I'm a big fan of Pumping INT, then DEX, dumping CON, and taking faerie mysteries initiate, and then becoming a necropolitan.

This is of course, assuming you bring some sort of body armour to survive all the books your DM will throw at you :PIf that requires you to wear body armor you may want to change your group.

I'd say CON unless you want to focus on ranged touch attacks or plan to become undead anyways.

[Inevitability]

Constitution, but not for HP.

If you have decent BFC, defensive spells, or meat shields, you should be able to avoid getting killed by HP damage. Besides, bumping your constitution by 4 only gives you 2 extra HP per level: an optimized martial can easily smash through that.

However, these four points of constitution will also give you a +2 modifier on your fortitude save. This in turn means you are about 10% more likely to survive any save-or-dies thrown your way. And while melee damage is predictable and easily avoided (50% of all melee builds can be crippled with Grease), there are many ways a failed fortitude save can kill you. Poison, petrification, death effects, and the list goes on).

Dexterity meanwhile gives you more AC (but as said before, if you're under attack something has gone wrong), a better chance to hit with ranged touch attacks (they're touch attacks, for Pelor's sake, hitting with them is trivial) and a higher reflex save (which prevents none of the save-or-die effects and is easier to protect against with spells).

[Crake]

I say con because at later levels when you're polymorphing, your extra dex will do nothing for you, but the extra con will mean more hp (since hp doesn't change when you polymorph)

[Dread_Head]

Dexterity meanwhile gives you more AC (but as said before, if you're under attack something has gone wrong), a better chance to hit with ranged touch attacks (they're touch attacks, for Pelor's sake, hitting with them is trivial) and a higher reflex save (which prevents none of the save-or-die effects and is easier to protect against with spells).

And initiative... which is pretty important for everyone but especially wizards.

I'm of the opinion that they are about equal in value so wouldn't prioritise one to the detriment of the other. Can usually get a 12 or 14 in both without too much bother.

[Beelzebub1111]

It depends if you will be using ranged touch spells. Granted, they're pretty easy to hit with anyway, but nothing sucks worse than wasting your highest level spell slot because you missed.

[Amphetryon]

In 3.5? I would prioritize CON over DEX, as the d4 HD, Concentration Skill* and low Fort save make it more vital to have a 14 CON than, for example, a 12 or 10, and you can get by with a 12 or 10 DEX through careful Spell selection and intelligent play. If I actually had to dump one or the other (say I'd rolled 18 17 9 9 8 8 and had to keep it or something), then I'd dump CON and go Necropolitan, if available.

In Pathfinder? The ability to use Favored Class bonus for an extra HP/Level and d6 HD, combined with PF eliminating the need to put ranks in Concentration, makes me much more likely to favor DEX over CON, assuming neither one is below 10.

*I am aware that Skill Ranks will outstrip CON score in actual yield in relatively short order, but the OP is predicated on playing prior to access to even 2nd level Spells.

[Quertus]

Con. Good incentive to stay alive. Dumping Con for Dex leads to winning init, alpha striking the foes so that they never get to go, and eventual lichdom.

Vote Con. Vote life.

[Andezzar]

Dumping Con for Dex leads to winning init, alpha striking the foes so that they never get to go, and eventual lichdom necropolitanism.

Vote ConCrucimigration. Vote unlife.FTFY :smallwink:

[Aegis013]

It strongly depends on optimization level, I think. You do Con for hp and Fort in low op. You do them roughly equally a little higher. As you go into mid-high op, dex is better for the initiative. After all, he who goes first blows his enemy up with his rocket before the foe can act. Then you get into crazy high op and it goes back to Con for Fort save, since initiative is almost irrelevant as someone is going to lose before any actions get taken; the many many contingencies should do all the work.

Basically there's no absolute right answer. The above largely assumes you're not side-stepping the need for Con by going undead.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For me, it would depend on what ways I'm optimizing, and whether the optimization is low up, mid op, high op, or super high op.

There are ways to mitigate both.

For instance, as has been mentioned, Faerie Mysteries Initiate pairs very well with necropolitan for dumping Constitution, with a few contingencies (not contingencies) for when you have to make Fort saves or defend against those attacking your undead-ness (Human Heritage feat, ray deflection for disintegrate, etc). About the only problem I haven't been able to find an answer for is subbing out for the Concentration skill, though skill optimization is fairly easy, so that shouldn't be terribly problematic. Plus, shape-changing magic replaces your Con score, even though most such effects don't affect your hp total (with metamorphosis being the prime exception).

For Dexterity, one level of factotum just might be worth it for the +Int to practically everything, especially in gestalt (in which case, three levels, eight levels, or eleven levels are ideal), and shape-changing effects can completely mitigate the need for it later on. AC optimization is really an all-or-nothing deal, and wizards are great at not needing AC as a defense at higher levels (and with no armor usage, their AC is going to tank anyway). Initiative and Reflex saves are really where it's at, here. The former can be boosted in innumerable different ways, and the latter is easily dealt with via a diamond mind ring and Action Before Thought, from ToB, along with taking full cover whenever possible; going Small, buying a Small darkwood tower shield, and casting unseen servant to set it up for you works very well. And then we have the minor creation hamster ball for 100% cover; not as great as the psionic version, but it still works.

[Zaq]

It kinda depends on level, though you can make a decent argument for either at pretty much most levels of play.

At low levels, DEX matters because attack rolls and AC are still on speaking terms, so an extra point or two of AC really might save you from an arrow (or even a melee character who gets up in your grill), and your attack bonus isn't so high that you can't miss with a ray or a different ranged touch attack. You might not have enough spell slots (or spells of the right level) to make yourself immune/nearly immune to mundane weapon-users, so you actually might need to rely on your AC to dodge a blow or two. On the other hand, CON matters at low levels because HP is never swingier than it is at the beginning of the game (every point counts), and it also matters because you might not have enough ranks in Concentration to ace every Concentration roll you ever make. (Yes, Wizards can fail Concentration checks, even if they put in their required ranks. It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen in the early game.)

At high levels, DEX matters because you really need to go first to dictate the terms of the battle. High-level play is rocket tag (especially for a Wizard), and there's only so many bonuses to initiative that don't come from raw stats, so you'll still notice your DEX score when it comes time to roll that first d20 at the start of the show. CON matters at high levels because it should firmly be your primary source of HP (true at low levels, but more true at high levels), and you also really don't want to fail the Fort saves being thrown around by high-level enemies.

Neither of these arguments is limited to high levels or low levels. High level Wizards still make ranged touch attacks and still make Reflex saves and Concentration checks. Low level Wizards still roll initiative and still don't want to fail Fort saves. But my point is that neither should be ignored entirely (unless you have a workaround like Necropolitan). You can make choices that make one or the other less important, of course—a Wizard who never uses rays/orbs, who relies on miss chance/Abrupt Jaunt/"that's not the Wizard" to not get hit, and/or who Polymorphs into lots of things generally doesn't need DEX all that much. A Wizard who goes Necropolitan or who uses Faerie Mysteries Initiate to get INT to HP doesn't need CON as badly as one who doesn't do those things. But most Wizards will find both of them to be valuable.

[Eloel]

Dexterity.
At low levels, that 1 HP won't save you when anything kills you anyway, but a miss could.
At high levels, everything kills everything else in one hit, so you need every point of initiative you can get.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you're wizarding right, they'll never be close enough to hit you. Taking a pot-shot from an enemy caster, monster with SLA, or trap that calls for a fort save, on the other hand, is virtually unavoidable. Likewise, no matter how dodgy you may be, something's going to hit you eventually and with crap hitpoints it's going to -hurt- way more than it will if you're a tad easier to hit.

Bottom line; con scales with level, dex doesn't. How is this even a question?

[Joe dirt]

i think others have answered this as well but i tend to play wizard the most and i played both types

DEX if you play a "stealthy" wizard, like for example a halfling wizard then i would actually max the DEX as much as u can and take the criminal background so u get the stealth skill then use a party member to hide in their shadow... this strategy means you will be using stealth a lot to position yourself early in a fight so the enemy melee fighters dont hit you.

DEX also lets you go first and this is important if you are trying to be a battlefield controller type. bottom line is dont do it for the AC because your AC is never going to be that great, but always choose the shield spell for some added protection when you need a round to position yourself behind the fighter.

i would go with CON if you like not being 1 shot in the early levels as your HP sucks, and it helps later when you are rolling more concentration saves

[Deophaun]

Meh, at level 3 you can get false life if you're so worried about your precious hit points. Which, since I've rarely played in a game where we don't start at 3 or later, means it's a non-issue for me.

Dex. Dex all the way. Con is for breathers.

[Inevitability]

i think others have answered this as well but i tend to play wizard the most and i played both types

DEX if you play a "stealthy" wizard, like for example a halfling wizard then i would actually max the DEX as much as u can and take the criminal background so u get the stealth skill then use a party member to hide in their shadow... this strategy means you will be using stealth a lot to position yourself early in a fight so the enemy melee fighters dont hit you.

DEX also lets you go first and this is important if you are trying to be a battlefield controller type. bottom line is dont do it for the AC because your AC is never going to be that great, but always choose the shield spell for some added protection when you need a round to position yourself behind the fighter.

i would go with CON if you like not being 1 shot in the early levels as your HP sucks, and it helps later when you are rolling more concentration saves

Fairly sure this is the wrong edition.

[Thurbane]

Con is also for maxing out Concentration, and for Fort saves (failing Fort save is generally worse than failing a Ref save).

Personally, I'd go Con every time.

[Lycanthrope13]

CON. Definitely. Personally, I think anyone who routinely channels arcane energy through their body needs to be relatively tough. I don't play casters often, but when I do, I enjoy the "bumbling scholar" trope, so I dump STR and DEX.