Are Will-o'-Wisps too hard to kill?

[Jon_Dahl]

They float around invisible 24/7. How to kill them anyway?

[Gildedragon]

Talk nice to them and skip the killing. They prefer not to fight
Sprinkle them with flour
Area effects

[Necroticplague]

They float around invisible 24/7. How to kill them anyway?

See Invisible. Blindsight. Blindsense+Dropping AoEs. Simply sucking up the 50% miss chance and hitting them normally. True Strike. Blind-fight.

[ATHATH]

Corpse Candle is also an option, though you might want to find a way to increase its light radius.

[Jon_Dahl]

See Invisible. Blindsight. Blindsense+Dropping AoEs. Simply sucking up the 50% miss chance and hitting them normally. True Strike. Blind-fight.

I'm the DM and none of the PCs can do any of those things. Their levels are 7, 7, 8 and 11.

[TheNivMizzet]

Sorry to interject, but 7, 7, 8 and 11? Is that ECL, and a couple of deaths? And they haven't got the funds to go and buy charge items of See invisibility?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm the DM and none of the PCs can do any of those things. Their levels are 7, 7, 8 and 11.

A couple of points about a Will-o'-wisp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm):
1: "Will-o’-wisps usually avoid combat." - for the most part, you won't have to kill them if they're being played to their description.
2: They do NOT have flyby attack, so if they attacked you, they either did it last round too, or are now adjacent to you in a known square.
3: Their natural invisibility is "as the spell" and references invisibility, rather than the improved version - which means when they attack, they become visible.
4: No action is listed in their natural invisibility, but it's explicitly something they do, not something that's always on. Ergo, it defaults to the Ex ability description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) which says: "Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted."

So no, they're not too hard. If they're zapping you, you can see them, and you can hit back. If you can't see them, they're not zapping you. They have no fast healing, no ranged attacks, and no flyby attack, so they can't really use hit and run tactics or strafing tactics. OK, yes, they're immune to most direct-offence spells, and have a high AC for CR 6. They are, however, pretty far from impossible as a level-appropriate encounter if they're played as they're statted out.

[Zaq]

Will-o'-wisps are way the hell under-CR'd. Way way way under-CR'd. They're basically unhittable (at-will invisibility, ridiculously high AC and touch AC, immune to most magic), their attack is super accurate (+16 to hit TOUCH attack?!)—it just doesn't add up to CR 6.

Their invisibility is "as the spell," so it does go away when they attack, but there's no action specified for their at-will invisibility, and since it's Ex, it defaults to a free action (Rules Compendium pg. 118). So they're basically constantly invisible (at best you can ready an action to hit them after they attack), you still can't hit the buggers because they've got crazy high AC, they have perfect flight and can basically go anywhere they want, and you can't even use magic on them. (Most AoE spells allow SR, so magic immunity applies, and many of the good SR-ignoring attack spells like Orb of Whatever require touch attacks, which the Wizard ain't gonna make against 29 touch AC.) Even if you do happen to have Magic Missile (which explicitly gets through their magic immunity), you still have to be able to see them in order to use it (which basically requires a readied action), and unless you're a Force Missile Mage who happens to have tweaked out Magic Missile to the limit, a CL 6 caster isn't likely to kill it with MM alone, since it has 9 HD and 40 HP.

Your only real option is Glitterdust. They're still annoying as hell with Glitterdust, but at least they're POSSIBLE to beat at ECL 6 if you land a Glitterdust on them (assuming they don't fly away and wait for it to run out, then come back and kill you). Glitterdust will negate their invisibility, and if they're blinded, they'll lose their DEX to AC, bringing them down to 20 instead of 29. Still annoying to hit, but not bloody impossible.

The problem with will-o-wisps isn't just that they're constantly invisible. The problem is that they're invisible, they're ridiculously accurate (find me one other CR 6 critter with an at-will touch attack at +16 to hit, especially for decent damage), they're incredibly hard to hit even if they're visible, AND they have golem-style infinite SR WITHOUT being mindless. (They're actually pretty damn smart beyond simply not being mindless.)

I mean, 2d8 damage per turn isn't going to OHKO any PC at level 6, but it's still 2d8 damage that's really really hard to stop, and they're almost guaranteed to outlast you. You have to change the terms of the battle (either running away or something similar), because you won't win a slugfest.

[ATHATH]

@Jack Smith: Your answer made me think of an evil encounter idea.

What is the fastest (fewest class levels) way for a Will o' Wisp to gain a swift-action, ranged attack? What about a swift-action, ranged Dispel Magic?

Action Routine:
Swift: Attack, or cast Dispel Magic on any of the opponents that look like they can see you.
Standard: Become invisible again.
Move: Move in a random direction.

[Troacctid]

@Jack Smith: Your answer made me think of an evil encounter idea.

What is the fastest (fewest class levels) way for a Will o' Wisp to gain a swift-action, ranged attack? What about a swift-action, ranged Dispel Magic?

Action Routine:
Swift: Attack, or cast Dispel Magic on any of the opponents that look like they can see you.
Standard: Become invisible again.
Move: Move in a random direction.

It would be easier to add the Shadow template, which allows them to remain invisible without spending an action.

[Zaq]

They can become invisible as a free action anyway. It's Ex, and Ex abilities default to free actions unless stated otherwise.

[Deophaun]

What is the fastest (fewest class levels) way for a Will o' Wisp to gain a swift-action, ranged attack? What about a swift-action, ranged Dispel Magic?
Well, it might be doable at ECL 9. Only your Will o' Wisp is actually an Aberration Wild Shaped Druid.

[ATHATH]

Well, it might be doable at ECL 9. Only your Will o' Wisp is actually an Aberration Wild Shaped Druid.
That's cheating. :smalltongue:

So I just need it to pick up a level or two of Warlock? Nice.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'd probably put there CR at 7 or 8 but no higher they DO have some severe vulnerabilities. A Resist energy(electric) can hamper or outright shut down there offensive capabilities and they only have 40hp and a -3 grapple.

6th level group, cast resist energy on the fighter or similar martial character, wait for Will-o-Wisp to shock someone and become visible. Then he grapples it so it can't run away or use its dex bonus against other characters.


At 7th level Black Tentacles becomes available.... and if that's prepared goodbye wisps.

[InvisibleBison]

I'd probably put there CR at 7 or 8 but no higher they DO have some severe vulnerabilities. A Resist energy(electric) can hamper or outright shut down there offensive capabilities and they only have 40hp and a -3 grapple.

6th level group, cast resist energy on the fighter or similar martial character, wait for Will-o-Wisp to shock someone and become visible. Then he grapples it so it can't run away or use its dex bonus against other characters.


At 7th level Black Tentacles becomes available.... and if that's prepared goodbye wisps.

Grappling requires hitting with a melee touch attack to begin, so it's not really feasible, because of the will-o-wisp's insane AC. Black tentacles does work, though, since automatically grapples anyone in the area and thus doesn't need to make an attack.

[Zaq]

I'd probably put there CR at 7 or 8 but no higher they DO have some severe vulnerabilities. A Resist energy(electric) can hamper or outright shut down there offensive capabilities and they only have 40hp and a -3 grapple.

6th level group, cast resist energy on the fighter or similar martial character, wait for Will-o-Wisp to shock someone and become visible. Then he grapples it so it can't run away or use its dex bonus against other characters.


At 7th level Black Tentacles becomes available.... and if that's prepared goodbye wisps.

The Fighter still has to succeed on his touch attack against the will-o-wisp to grapple it. Touch AC 29 (30 if the will-o-wisp is Dodging the Fighter, but let's be generous). How big is the Fighter's attack bonus on the touch attack to start a grapple at level 6? 6 BAB and maybe +4 or +5 STR? That's +11 to hit. He needs an 18 on the die. He only gets one shot on a readied action. And unless he has Improved Grapple, the will-o-wisp can make its AoO on him (and it WILL hit), so unless he does in fact have Resist Energy up, the counterattack is almost guaranteed to spoil the grapple. Once the grapple is established, then yes, the Fighter has the upper hand (assuming Resist Energy), but good luck establishing the grapple in the first place.

Black Tentacles will probably work if the spell skips the touch attack step and moves straight to the opposed grapple check step. It's still not great monster design to have monsters who are nearly unbeatable by normal means, even if they have a couple weaknesses to a couple spells. I'm all in favor of monsters who are more interesting than sacks of meat that trade d20 rolls with the melee characters until someone falls over, but will-o-wisps are still really poorly designed.

[Jon_Dahl]

They can become invisible as a free action anyway. It's Ex, and Ex abilities default to free actions unless stated otherwise.

Would you mind stating a source for that? I've understood that they default to standard actions.

[Deophaun]

Would you mind stating a source for that? I've understood that they default to standard actions.
Source was already given:

Their invisibility is "as the spell," so it does go away when they attack, but there's no action specified for their at-will invisibility, and since it's Ex, it defaults to a free action (Rules Compendium pg. 118).

[Korahir]

Would you mind stating a source for that? I've understood that they default to standard actions.

He did: it is in the rules compendium p. 118.

[Zaq]

Would you mind stating a source for that? I've understood that they default to standard actions.

As I mentioned in my first post, that's from Rules Compendium pg. 118. It's also from the Monster Manual, pg. 315.

[ATHATH]

Ooh, better idea. The Will o' Wisp with a Warlock level remains hidden (and moving), casts Summon Swarm, and concentrates on it. When the swarm dies, the WoW summons another, and keeps doing this until the PC's find it or drop dead. Another WoW with a Warlock level remains hidden in the room that they're guarding. Its invocation is See the Unseen, which it uses to ensure that nothing sneaks past it.

Are there any quick ways to get a Dispel Magic or two?

[Jon_Dahl]

As I mentioned in my first post, that's from Rules Compendium pg. 118. It's also from the Monster Manual, pg. 315.

I'm sorry, my foolishness caused three unnecessary posts, but I just read your shorter message and thought about reading the longer one tomorrow when I can concentrate.

[Florian]

See Invisibility and liberal use of Magic Missile.

[Coidzor]

As I mentioned in my first post, that's from Rules Compendium pg. 118. It's also from the Monster Manual, pg. 315.

I was about to ask about whether that was an RC change or if they were always like that.

[Glimbur]

The Fighter still has to succeed on his touch attack against the will-o-wisp to grapple it. Touch AC 29 (30 if the will-o-wisp is Dodging the Fighter, but let's be generous). How big is the Fighter's attack bonus on the touch attack to start a grapple at level 6? 6 BAB and maybe +4 or +5 STR? That's +11 to hit. He needs an 18 on the die. He only gets one shot on a readied action. And unless he has Improved Grapple, the will-o-wisp can make its AoO on him (and it WILL hit), so unless he does in fact have Resist Energy up, the counterattack is almost guaranteed to spoil the grapple. Once the grapple is established, then yes, the Fighter has the upper hand (assuming Resist Energy), but good luck establishing the grapple in the first place.

Black Tentacles will probably work if the spell skips the touch attack step and moves straight to the opposed grapple check step. It's still not great monster design to have monsters who are nearly unbeatable by normal means, even if they have a couple weaknesses to a couple spells. I'm all in favor of monsters who are more interesting than sacks of meat that trade d20 rolls with the melee characters until someone falls over, but will-o-wisps are still really poorly designed.

Why just have the fighter grapple? As we have established, you need a pretty good roll to touch the thing but its actual grapple check is terrible. Pile the rogue, wizard, and cleric on it to grapple too. Sure there's an AoO but it should work.

Caveat: when I saw this done I don't remember the Will o' Wisp being invisible. That makes things... harder. Might need a faerie fire or glitter dust or flour or what have you to be feasible.

[LTwerewolf]

You could always use a level one spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/faerieFire.htm) or maybe a level two spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) in order to pretty much negate their invisibility. If you don't have people that can use either, you probably have someone that can UMD a wand of either or (which a wand of glitterdust is still a useful tool to have). If you have neither spellcasters that can cast things nor anyone with UMD, why are you throwing creatures that require the use of magic to kill on a party that has no magic? Telling us what the pcs are helps answer the question.

[Deophaun]

You could always use a level one spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/faerieFire.htm)
Faerie fire is SR:Yes and not on the list of spells the circumvent a Will o' Wisp's magic immunity.

[LTwerewolf]

Faerie fire is SR:Yes and not on the list of spells the circumvent a Will o' Wisp's magic immunity.

Should have mentioned you combine it with sacks of flour. You attack the space in the center that's not glowing. No group should be without the basics: food, water, flour, marbles, caltrops, glue, wax, firewood, ash (from said firewood), chalk, and of course, soap.

[Thurbane]

Advanced (18HD) Will O Wisp
CR 8
Feats: Air Heritage, Blind Fight, Flyby Attack, Improved Natural Attack (shock), Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Scorpion's Resolve, Weapon Finesse

...although by level 8 a party shouldn't have too much trouble with it.

[Deophaun]

You attack the space in the center that's not glowing.
:smallconfused:

Faerie fire doesn't cause spaces to glow. Just creatures and objects. The invisible, magic-immune ball hovering in the middle will be indistinguishable from the rest of the empty space around it.

[LTwerewolf]

:smallconfused:

Faerie fire doesn't cause spaces to glow. Just creatures and objects. The invisible, magic-immune ball hovering in the middle will be indistinguishable from the rest of the empty space around it.

Read all of it, you combine it with flour. The flour in the air glows, the wisp does not.

[Deophaun]

Read all of it, you combine it with flour. The flour in the air glows, the wisp does not.
But, if you've thrown the flour, then the Wisp is already covered in it, so you don't need the faerie fire.

[LTwerewolf]

But, if you've thrown the flour, then the Wisp is already covered in it, so you don't need the faerie fire.

Arguably, they can reinvis themselves with the flour on them.

[Deophaun]

Arguably, they can reinvis themselves with the flour on them.
Hmm... well now you're at the question of whether the flour counts as the Wisp or not, because it is an area spell and you can't single out an item to distinguish. Although, because of the explanation for how the wisp turns invisible, the flour should be visible regardless (even though the description says "as the spell").

Don't know if it's RAW, but you've convinced me it would fly at my table.

[AnachroNinja]

I was always under the impression that the srd was considered the most current source for rules. Is that a mistake on my part and the rules compendium takes precedence as a source for abilities and monsters?

[LTwerewolf]

It's enough to make sure it works. It either works because you can see the flour on them, or it works because they're the one thing in the area that doesn't glow. Either way you get to pinpoint the position.


I was always under the impression that the srd was considered the most current source for rules. Is that a mistake on my part and the rules compendium takes precedence as a source for abilities and monsters?


Who was suggesting not using the srd wisp? If you're referring to the EX ability thing, rules compendium is not OGL and is not included. Most people I know pretend it was never written anyhow.

[Deophaun]

I was always under the impression that the srd was considered the most current source for rules. Is that a mistake on my part and the rules compendium takes precedence as a source for abilities and monsters?
The SRD is not the most current source, for the simple reason that errata was never included. (d20srd.org does include the errata, but that means the website is effectively misnamed)

[AnachroNinja]

I ask only because it's what I usually use, and d20srd.org as you put it, lists extraordinary abilities as defaulting to standard actions. I was unsure if the precedence involved since I don't have the rules compendium

[Troacctid]

I was always under the impression that the srd was considered the most current source for rules. Is that a mistake on my part and the rules compendium takes precedence as a source for abilities and monsters?

Technically, the SRD is a source for the d20 system, not for Dungeons & Dragons 3.5. For D&D proper, the books are authoritative, not the SRD.

[Psyren]

As others have mentioned, the invisibility is the least of your worries with them - it's the immunity to anything magic that allows SR (except magic missile), and the astronomical (touch) AC, that are the real problems.

If the invisibility is worrisome, try using the PF version instead, which require a move action to conceal themselves - thus, if they attack and then hide, you know where they are, and can aim your attacks and Su abilities appropriately.

Note also that they are much easier for some classes to fight than others. A class with an Ex or Su area attack, like a DFA or Alchemist, can make short work of them.

[Jack_Simth]

I was always under the impression that the srd was considered the most current source for rules. Is that a mistake on my part and the rules compendium takes precedence as a source for abilities and monsters?
d20srd.org is a handy reference because the people running website include the official published errata.

In the Rules Compendium, the Rules Compendium states that it takes precedence over things that contradict it.
At the top of the errata files, the primary source rule states (copy pasted from one of the errata PDF's - Player's Handbook):
Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over
a table entry. An individual spell description takes
precedence when the short description in the beginning
of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
descriptions. If you find something on one of those
topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
primary source for topics such as magic item
descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

So... yeah. Technically, Rules Compendium is right in this instance even without itself - if you go to the glossary in the Monster Manual, there it lists that Ex abilities are free actions unless otherwise noted... unless, of course, you treat a glossary as supplementary information...

Still, though, after the vanilla Will o Wisp attacks you, it should be in a square immediately adjacent to the one it attacked you from, and you can ready actions to attack when it does. It's not a great situation, but you can kill it.

[Traitoreous]

Pyrotechnics could lower that AC by two. It does limit vision though and you need a source of fire, but anyway.

[Telok]

As I recall the last time my table fought a wisp was with readied actions, bed sheets, and a hammer. You just use a sheet large enough to cover a 5x5 area and only have to hit the square.

The time after that they just talked to the wisp. It wanted them to get rid of some giant bats nearby.

[ericgrau]

I'm the DM and none of the PCs can do any of those things. Their levels are 7, 7, 8 and 11.

Anyone can do the "suck up the 50% miss chance". If it moves silently, then make a DC 19 listen check to get a rough direction or a DC 39 listen to know exactly what square it is in. If it doesn't move, the PCs can guess that it is in the same square.

Since their ability works like invisibility, attacking makes them visible.

The other way is to simply bring them from 40 hp to 0 before they take a single turn and go invisible, which is pretty easy to do at level 7-11. Two PCs could do it, maybe one. It's hard to hurt them with magic but a good attack bonus and some weapon strikes will do just fine. They should have at least a +16 to +17 to hit without much optimization or buffs. Charging, haste, GMW, buffs, items, etc. add more.

Plus wisp damage is pitiful, so at worst you get a draw. That or get lured into a real threat.

[ganondorf50]

two words magic missle if you have a dedicated wizard these bitches will go down like nothing I have never had a party have problems with them

[CharonsHelper]

They're pretty easy to deal with if you just use Feint and then grapple them the following turn. Will o' Wisps are one of the few foes against which Feinting is well worth using a standard action. So long as someone in the group has a decent Bluff - they're pretty easy to beat that way.

Or a sorcerer with magic missile will beat them in a few rounds if he's level 5+. (A wizard probably won't have enough of them prepared.)

Or true strike / grapple. (Even the wizard can probably out-grapple it for a round until the martial has a chance to grab it too.)

Or everyone aid-another to help the touch attack for grappling. (can use Summon Monster to get more buddies for aid-another - make them owls and they'll help to pinpoint its square with +16 Listen)

Or use Summon Monster also works to get some bombardier beetles. (Eat the Fort save!) Or a bison. (trample - still does 1/2 on a passed save) Neither does a ton - but they both have electric resis - so it's not like the will o' wisp is going to be killing them quickly either.

Or bull-rush it into a cage/net/box etc. while a buddy has a readied action to trap it.

Or trick it with an Image spell. (It has a good will save - just make it so that it doesn't WANT to interact with the illusion.)

Or use Summon Swarm. (The bat swarm's Wounding will eventually kill it though it could take a few minutes - if they fail their Fort save vs the spider swarm their STR drops to 0 - so it'd likely be my choice.)

Or a bard using their fascinate ability to allow their buddies to get close & grapple them.

They're not that hard - you just have to be creative. Their damage is pretty weak - so you have time to work something out.

[Gildedragon]

I'm the DM and none of the PCs can do any of those things. Their levels are 7, 7, 8 and 11.


talking to the orbs is eminently doable

throwing a net into the area

Splash weapons: Vial of water or oil, cast Light on the liquid (now you have a glowstick), use vial as a splash weapon. Light is not dimmed by an invisibility spell.

[CharonsHelper]

Hmm... well now you're at the question of whether the flour counts as the Wisp or not, because it is an area spell and you can't single out an item to distinguish. Although, because of the explanation for how the wisp turns invisible, the flour should be visible regardless (even though the description says "as the spell").

Don't know if it's RAW, but you've convinced me it would fly at my table.

I don't think 3.5 ever made a ruling - but Pathfinder ruled that 'white powder' (flour/chalk etc.) made an invisible creature visible for one round. In this case - I'd say one round or until the will o' wisp's turn and he re-uses his invis - whichever came first.

[Lans]

But, if you've thrown the flour, then the Wisp is already covered in it, so you don't need the faerie fire.

I think you just get invisible flour if its not glowing. That and flour on the ground for its foot prints

[Kelb_Panthera]

I was always under the impression that the srd was considered the most current source for rules. Is that a mistake on my part and the rules compendium takes precedence as a source for abilities and monsters?

An editing error was made somewhere along the way from the rules as the stand to what's presented on the SRD website.

The text on the SRD is copied from the PHB but the MM is the primary source for such abilities. Further, the PHB and SRD entries say that activating an EX ability is 'usually' a standard action while the MM glossary has the much more specific language that indicates that it's a free action unless otherwise specified. There's not even a conflict there linguistically. It's a free action.

[AnachroNinja]

While I'm willing to go along with the source arguments, just to clarify u thought I'd point out that the srd does not use the usually style if wording.

"Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted."

It's actually quite specific, just apparently not valid.

[ATHATH]

two words magic missle if you have a dedicated wizard these bitches will go down like nothing I have never had a party have problems with them
What Wizard in their right mind prepares enough Magic Missle spells to be able to kill a Will o' Wisp?

I mean, I guess a Wizard that divines what will threaten him that day before he prepares his spells would count, but I don't think there are very many Wizards that can consistently do that at low levels (which is when you'd usually encounter a Will o' Wisp).

[Necroticplague]

What Wizard in their right mind prepares enough Magic Missle spells to be able to kill a Will o' Wisp?

I mean, I guess a Wizard that divines what will threaten him that day before he prepares his spells would count, but I don't think there are very many Wizards that can consistently do that at low levels (which is when you'd usually encounter a Will o' Wisp).

At low levels, Magic Missile is handy because, as force damage, it can also pull double-duty against incorporeal creatures, before the cost of a backup ghost touch weapon for the fighter becomes chump change. So quiet a few, in my experience. Not just to will o wisp, but in case of shadows or ghosts, and end up using it on the wisp.

[Deophaun]

What Wizard in their right mind prepares enough Magic Missle spells to be able to kill a Will o' Wisp?
Any spellcaster that has access to SMII and content from the BoED will have enough.

[ATHATH]

Ah. I stand corrected, then.

Couldn't they just get a Wand of Magic Missile instead?

[Troacctid]

Your Magic Missiles would also have to be backed up by See Invisibility, or they won't be much use.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Because incarnum is awesome; the soulsight feat can be really helpful here. If it's in melee range, you pinpoint it unless it's undead or a construct, which will-o'-wisps aren't.

[CharonsHelper]

Your Magic Missiles would also have to be backed up by See Invisibility, or they won't be much use.

Magic Missile always works even vs. total concealment.

[Troacctid]

Magic Missile always works even vs. total concealment.

No it doesn't.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Magic Missile always works even vs. total concealment.

Reads it again, it ignores -less than- total cover or concealment.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, it's very hard to kill. But it also isn't that dangerous. It practically auto-hits, but only does 2-18 damage once per turn, and to inflict it, has to basically telegraph its location.


Magic Missile always works even vs. total concealment.



Targets: Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment.



Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

[Florian]

What Wizard in their right mind prepares enough Magic Missle spells to be able to kill a Will o' Wisp?

Any Wizard that studies the MM instead of the SC and survives to fith level by not depending on gm fiat?
Sorry, but how did you survive your first Shadow? By hiding behind the fighter?

[CharonsHelper]

Reads it again, it ignores -less than- total cover or concealment.

My bad - I misread it.

Nonetheless - it's not hard to ready their Magic Missile for when the will o' wisp attacks and becomes visible momentarily.

[ganondorf50]

What Wizard in their right mind prepares enough Magic Missle spells to be able to kill a Will o' Wisp?

I mean, I guess a Wizard that divines what will threaten him that day before he prepares his spells would count, but I don't think there are very many Wizards that can consistently do that at low levels (which is when you'd usually encounter a Will o' Wisp).

I would argue any decent blasting wizard

[Strigon]

I would argue any decent blasting wizard

I think you'll find a general consensus on this forum that the terms "decent" and "blasting wizard" don't belong anywhere near each other. Mostly because they aren't horribly broken.

I.E; "Magic missile can't end an encounter all by itself, so why should I prepare it except as a backup?"

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think you'll find a general consensus on this forum that the terms "decent" and "blasting wizard" don't belong anywhere near each other. Mostly because they aren't horribly broken.

I.E; "Magic missile can't end an encounter all by itself, so why should I prepare it except as a backup?"

In fairness, serren bolts or arrows are only 80gp each and most low cr incorporeals are undead and, consequently, vulnerable to holy water and turning.

[nedz]

I had a Wild Soul summon a few against a 15th level party and I was surprised how long they lasted. They weren't much of a threat, but they were hard to kill.



I would argue any decent blasting wizardI think you'll find a general consensus on this forum that the terms "decent" and "blasting wizard" don't belong anywhere near each other. Mostly because they aren't horribly broken.

I.E; "Magic missile can't end an encounter all by itself, so why should I prepare it except as a backup?"

My sorcerers usually take it as their last 1st level spell pick, if at all, because its only 17.5 HP of damage. It is a really poor spell.

[CharonsHelper]

My sorcerers usually take it as their last 1st level spell pick, if at all, because its only 17.5 HP of damage. It is a really poor spell.

It's not a bread & butter spell - but it's something I'd nearly always take it as my 5th level pick. Not only good vs incoporeals & will o' wisps etc. - but in 3.5 (not Pathfinder) it's great for dealing with mirror image.

[Psyren]

Of course you should take it in Pathfinder too - Toppling Spell is a thing that exists, and it's a pretty good use of a 2nd-level slot. I'd wait until later (level 7+) but by then you should have some caster level and ability score increases from your gear too. Even against high-CMD foes, your odds of getting at least one 20 when you're rolling 5 trip attempts is fairly decent.

[CharonsHelper]

Of course you should take it in Pathfinder too -

Oh - I'm with you. I was just pointing out that in Pathfinder it doesn't deal with Mirror Image like it did back in 3.x.

Plus - incorporeal foes seem to be meaner in Pathfinder - so it gets more use there.