World Ruled by Dragons - Which Spells are Banned?

[Nifft]

Given:

A - The world is, or for a long time was, ruled by an organization of very intelligent dragons.

B - These dragons, enjoying their own continued survival, took steps to ensure that magic couldn't be turned directly and specifically against themselves.

Questions:

1 - Which spells would they "ban" (expunge from the Arcane record, render impossible to research somehow)?

2 - What magic items would be forbidden to create? How would they enforce that?

3 - Is there anything else they might have been careful to prohibit?

[ATHATH]

Dragonbane items, dragonbone items, that one item in a Dragon Magazine article that let you turn into a dragon for an hour once per day (and most of the other items from that article), the Orbs of Dragonkind, that spell that lets you hide from Dragons, the Draconic Wildshape feat, Polymorph and its ilk (when used by non-Dragons), Dominate Monster and its Psionic version (when used by non-dragons) the Dragon Ally line of spells, and the elemental domains (they let you turn or rebuke certain kinds of Dragons) come to mind. If prestige classes can also be forbidden, the Dragonslayer and Wearer of Purple prestige classes might also be banned.

[Surpriser]

Shivering Touch and everything else that deals Dex damage :smalltongue:

[kellbyb]

Shivering Touch and everything else that deals Dex damage :smalltongue:

Any dragon smart enough to rule the world would obviously know to protect themselves from touch attacks and/or ability damage.

[inuyasha]

I think they would honestly ban all flight related spells and effects, even going so far as to exterminate flying creatures that aren't dumb animals and birds. If they are the true masters of the sky then this should help them keep their grip on the world.

[Draconium]

Ah, yes, a world of perfection...

Anyways, let's see. Along with what's already been mentioned, spells that cause a creature to lose their fly speed (such as Earthbind) would probably be banned, along with spells that lower a dragon's natural defenses (such as Assay Spell Resistance).

However, if you want to take it a step further, you could just have dragons ban the practice of magic entirely among non-dragons. Exceptions would be those that the dragons specifically pick out of the lesser beings and train to hunt down those that break the ban, most of whom would probably have draconic heritage anyways. Dragons could claim the arcane arts as their divine right, and any other race that usually them without their blood is robbing dragonkind of their power. As for divine magic, the worship of non-dragon gods could also be banned, meaning that all known clerics are either loyal or heretics to be killed. That would go a long way towards ensuring their position. Though they should still ban any spell designed specifically to combat dragons - that is, unless the dragons in control aren't necessarily allied together, a la the Dragons of Tarkir storyline from MtG.

[atemu1234]

I like Draconium's idea, but take it a step further - Dragonblood races are trained by dragons to serve as casters when necessary, but no normal mortals are.

[Ruethgar]

Science would also be banned seeing as how it 'perverts nature to create a mockery of the dragon's divine art.' Or something along those lines, the fact that it can mimic any spell makes it very dangerous. Along with the spell ban would probably be a psionics ban.

[Draconium]

I like Draconium's idea, but take it a step further - Dragonblood races are trained by dragons to serve as casters when necessary, but no normal mortals are.

The thing is, the dragons may very well be attempting to keep their own bloodline pure by limiting or banning breeding with the lesser races, which would mean that Dragonblooded races may not be all that common. And even if they are, not every Kobold, Spellscale, and Dragonborn have the aptitude for magic. Better to allow it in a limited capacity for the lesser races (possibly with healthy applications of Mindrape if necessary) to insure more casting for your side of then limiting your options that much.


Science would also be banned seeing as how it 'perverts nature to create a mockery of the dragon's divine art.' Or something along those lines, the fact that it can mimic any spell makes it very dangerous. Along with the spell ban would probably be a psionics ban.

There are psionic dragons as well, so psionics would probably only be as banned as spells are - completely unless you've proven yourself 100% loyal to your draconic overlords. As for science, I wouldn't necessarily take it that far. After all, dragons can get a lot of use out of scientific advancements. And if they make sure to make some of these advances to improve to quality of life of their subjects, there is much less chance of them one day attempting an annoyance rebellion against them. Plus, science can't mimic every spell, and you can just "fail to discover" the more troublesome advancements.

[Telonius]

They would probably Fabricate, Locate Object (for use in Rods of Metal and Mineral Detection), some Druid spells to increase harvests. Basically, anything that makes it easier for the mortals to create nice sparkly things to give in tribute.

[Malroth]

Energy immunity, resist Energy, MindBlank, Freedom Of movement, Protection from Evil

[Ruethgar]

There are psionic dragons as well, so psionics would probably only be as banned as spells are - completely unless you've proven yourself 100% loyal to your draconic overlords. As for science, I wouldn't necessarily take it that far. After all, dragons can get a lot of use out of scientific advancements. And if they make sure to make some of these advances to improve to quality of life of their subjects, there is much less chance of them one day attempting an annoyance rebellion against them. Plus, science can't mimic every spell, and you can just "fail to discover" the more troublesome advancements.

Actually, it can mimic every spell. Mimicking spells and magic items is its only function as far as I can see in official material. Create Device for Staves and Wands are particularly potent seeing as how they can recharge fairly quickly if you can make the check to attach an alternator to it, also that they are Ex effects is a nice bonus.

[ATHATH]

Planar Binding, Planar Ally, and Fey Ring are also banned, because they bring creatures that can tell your subjects about non-Dragon-focused systems of government and that Dragons are not all-powerful.

[Lycanthrope13]

They would probably just set themselves up as the only source of magical knowledge. All casters would train under draconic masters who would cap all teaching at 4th or 5th level spells. To go higher would probably require some ritual which would render you incapable of passing on this knowledge.

[Coidzor]

1 - Which spells would they "ban" (expunge from the Arcane record, render impossible to research somehow)?

2 - What magic items would be forbidden to create? How would they enforce that?

3 - Is there anything else they might have been careful to prohibit?

1 - So this means they can't use it either? Or just non-dragons can't? Because if the latter, then all spells not pertaining to their work as agricultural or industrial casters or research assistants. Unless they keep warcasters for games of xorvintaal?

2 - Presumably they'd enforce it the same way they rewrite magic to not have specific spells.

3 - Aboleths, Aboleth mucus. Phaerimm. Ethergaunts. Possibly Druids and clerics of non-draconic deities. Maybe Avangions if that bit of Athasian lore spread to their world. Any advances Jotun civilizations or populations of Titans. They might also address Celestial, Fiendish, Illithid, Planar, deific, or other meddling that would leak forbidden magics into their world.

[bahamut920]

First of all, how evil is this organization of dragons? Is it a tyrannical LE dystopia where the far more numerous "lesser" races suffer under the yoke of their draconic overlords, and thus likely the final boss/likely goal of the campaign? A CG peace-loving hippie land of flowers and happiness, with few laws other than "don't be a ****, man"? Or a "meets-at-TN" council with representatives from all the true dragon races, and there has to be at least a simple majority for a law to pass? And how are you handling dragon alignments? "Color-Coded For Your Convenience" like standard D&D, or a more Eberron-esque perspective on the matter?

At the very least, the murder of a dragon is a crime, and all items made from dragon parts would be highly illegal to own (as would owning stuff made from human parts in most corners of our world). Whether or not the murder of a dragon is more severe than the murder of another sentient being depends upon the alignment of the government and your stance on the vaunted draconic arrogance, but it most likely is, even if the dragons are mostly of good alignments. The "lesser races" don't have much (if any) say in their governance, which means the dragons either took over out of desire to rule the world (if evil or neutral), or the belief that they could do a better job than the "pathetic mortals" who were previously doing the job (if neutral or good). In the former case, dragons are likely first-class citizens, whereas humanoids are second-class, if citizens at all. Even assaulting a dragon might be punishable by instant execution, depending upon how dystopian you're going. In the latter case, attacking a dragon would be kind of like attacking a police officer or public worker; more severe than normal assault or murder, but not grounds for instant execution without trial (assuming the attacker survived the dragon's self-defense). Any spells or items specifically targeting the dragon type or true dragons are likely to be expunged as well, no matter what. If the Orbs of Dragonkind haven't been completely destroyed yet, they're in the highest-security vault the dragons can muster, awaiting their destruction.

More dystopian draconic societies might restrict access to magic or even certain technologies altogether; either selecting representatives from among the "lesser races" to wield power in their name, or possibly even regarding the use of magic in non-dragons as a hideous perversion of nature or blasphemy. In the former, sorcerers are shipped off to re-education camps when their powers develop, and all wizards would be officially trained and part of the army or secret police. In the latter society, the dragons instill those ideals in the humanoid races' culture, making them likely to "put down" sorcerers and form torch-and-pitchfork witch-hunting mobs when confronted with an established spellcaster.

[Nifft]

Shivering Touch and everything else that deals Dex damage :smalltongue:
Yeah, my list before making this thread was basically:
- Shivering Touch
- Ray of Stupidity
- Ice Assassin

Sadly it's not really improved much since most posts seem kinda off-topic.


Energy immunity, resist Energy, MindBlank, Freedom Of movement, Protection from Evil
Hmm. I suspect stuff like Mind Blank and Protection from Evil would be of use to the dragons themselves.

Energy Immunity might be banned, but then I'm picturing a Red Dragon fighting a Gelugon or a pack of Winter Wolves... wouldn't he really like having that spell as an option?


1 - So this means they can't use it either? Banned = stricken from the Arcane record, impossible for everyone (including dragons) to ever learn or research.


3 - Aboleths, Aboleth mucus. Phaerimm. Ethergaunts. Possibly Druids and clerics of non-draconic deities. Maybe Avangions if that bit of Athasian lore spread to their world. Any advances Jotun civilizations or populations of Titans. They might also address Celestial, Fiendish, Illithid, Planar, deific, or other meddling that would leak forbidden magics into their world. An extra-planar war would have been an interesting end for that civilization, and might be why Tieflings are socially accepted -- "Devils might be evil but at least they freed us from the Dragons."


First of all, how evil is this organization of dragons? The dragons who rule(d) the world were represented by all mainstream dragon types, both chromatic and metallic. It was not particularly evil overall, though obviously some specific dragons were quite evil.

[Coidzor]

Downdraft exists to ground dragons, so that's probably out.

Plane Shift, Shadow Jaunt, and the like, if they want to isolate themselves from the planes. Especially if it blocks coming and going. That'd leave things like the Infinite Staircase, the World Serpent Inn, The Dark Powers of Ravenloft, and Sigil for being able to get in and The Dark Powers of Ravenloft and Sigil for being able to get out. Well. Maybe the World Serpent Inn, too, I can't remember that one very well, sadly. There's a reason why the door to Athas is sealed, though.

They'd presumably do something about many of the more effective poisons, at least to have control of them.

[Sahleb]

Anyone accessing elemental domains are summarily executed by non-dragon agents of the system.

In general, the existance of clerics of Obad-Hai puts a major dampener on any attempts to set up a proper dracocracy.

[Draconium]

Banned = stricken from the Arcane record, impossible for everyone (including dragons) to ever learn or research.

Well, the problem with that is, as you saw yourself, a lot of spells that dragons would want to ban would actually be quite useful to have. Even if it is only for dragon-on-dragon conflict.


Anyone accessing elemental domains are summarily executed by non-dragon agents of the system.

In general, the existance of clerics of Obad-Hai puts a major dampener on any attempts to set up a proper dracocracy.

This is why I suggested banning the worship of non-draconic deities. In most D&D settings, the power a specific deity has is directly proportional to the amount of worshippers they have. This course of action would, over time, weaken the other deities while strengthening the draconic ones. Eventually, the dragon gods will become so powerful that they could fight and kill the other gods, making them impossible to worship and receive spells from.

Of course, there's still the problem of Clerics that can access domains via concepts (and even the ones that can get the elemental domains via dragon gods), but if they are declared heretics and actively hunted down by the Dracocracy (my new favorite word, BTW :smalltongue:), that will discourage others from doing so as well. And of course, any attepts to turn/rebuke dragons is punishable by death.

[Quertus]

None. Dragons are the epitome of overconfidence and laziness. Even if they did think the world would be better without that one spell, they'll get to banning it, right after their 100 year nap.

[Sahleb]

Quertus certainly has a point.

Also, Bahamut grants the air domain, so green dragons can suck it.

[animewatcha]

Web. Any variation of tentacle spell.

[Nifft]

Downdraft exists to ground dragons, so that's probably out.
That's a good one.

In the same vein, Earthbind.

Thank you!


Well, the problem with that is, as you saw yourself, a lot of spells that dragons would want to ban would actually be quite useful to have.
Sure? No kidding?

I mean, if there were no problems, and it were easy, then I wouldn't need to ask for help.


None. Dragons are the epitome of overconfidence and laziness.
That's funny, but factually incorrect.

Even if you just look at official WotC settings, it's provably wrong.

[Strigon]

None. Dragons are the epitome of overconfidence and laziness. Even if they did think the world would be better without that one spell, they'll get to banning it, right after their 100 year nap.

A few points:
1) Overconfidence isn't overconfidence when you're the biggest thing on the food chain, which dragons pretty much are. Add on spellcasting and ridiculous intelligence, and the list of things that can threaten a dragon becomes very thin indeed. They might be prideful, which might be mistaken for overconfidence, or they might place undue value on its horde, leading to behaviour which may similarly seem overconfident, but it would be hard for something that is either so wise, experienced, or dangerous to be overconfident - let alone all three.

2) They're not lazy, they're patient. If they want something done, you can bet it'll be done. But they're in no rush; if it looks like it'll be easier or safer to do in a few decades, then they can wait. Their pride and patience may look like laziness, but that's the sort of mistake that gets you killed

3) Even if they are overconfident or lazy, those are/would be relatively minor traits compared to their colossal pride and wrath. Dragons' anger is a fierce force; offend them, and they'll be angry. Combine that with a ridiculous lifespan (so a "short" grudge could last decades), with their tenacity and cunning, and you can guarantee that neither you nor anyone you love will be safe until one of you is dead - or possibly for some time after.
Even assuming they don't ban these spells right off the bat - which I still maintain they would - the second one of them was hit with such a spell, the caster would be killed, his mentor would be killed, his family would be killed, his favourite library would be burned down, the spell would be banned, and they might even burn any farms that grew his favourite vegetable just for good measure.

[Nifft]

I'm wavering on Wraithstrike.

For one thing, it's really good for multi-attackers like dragons.

But on the other side, it's disproportionately good against dragons.

What do you all think?

[kellbyb]

I'm wavering on Wraithstrike.

For one thing, it's really good for multi-attackers like dragons.

But on the other side, it's disproportionately good against dragons.

What do you all think?

Scintillating Scales is a thing. I wouldn't be too worried if I was a dragon.

[ericgrau]

Any dragon smart enough to rule the world would obviously know to protect themselves from touch attacks and/or ability damage.
What are the solutions that can be kept up 24 hours and cast/purchased by a younger dragon?

I keep hearing scintillating scales which means the dragon has to both win initiative, not easy with a low dex, and dramatically reduce his attack power by blowing an entire round on it. Not to mention he must blow that round whether the foe prepares shivering touch or not, unless he has some impressive scrying ability. It seems like a spell that makes all dragons in the world stand still for a round the moment they fight anyone would be the most loathed spell ever made and the very first spell to be banned. Because the cure itself is worse than the disease of "maybe he has shivering touch."


I'm wavering on Wraithstrike.

For one thing, it's really good for multi-attackers like dragons.

But on the other side, it's disproportionately good against dragons.

What do you all think?
Dragons have a high attack bonus, far higher than their CR, and with the multi-attack feat only take a -2 on secondary attacks so they have little trouble hitting. It does help tremendously with power attack damage though, so overall I'd call it a gain to keep the spell. Dragons might even benefit more because they have more BAB to dump into it. Helping all dragons is better than helping some foes.


Scintillating Scales is a thing. I wouldn't be too worried if I was a dragon.
This however is a joke. I discard round 1 of every fight regardless of whether or not a foe has touch attacks (without extreme recon), is not an answer. It's akin to lighting yourself on fire to avoid being touched. Which I've seen done in silly comic strips, but it takes rather special preparation. Neither is a valid casual two sentence answer, it's a silly joke.

Something to consider in general when banning spells is that offense >>> defense. Unless that defense is an immediate action or up 24/7, it's a million miles from bulletproof. And sometimes even if it is always ready there are other ways around it. That's why protection from evil is a so-so 1st level spell and dominate monster is a good 9th level spell.

[Coidzor]

Assay Spell Resistance?

[Nifft]

What are the solutions that can be kept up 24 hours and cast/purchased by a younger dragon? Mage armor?


I keep hearing scintillating scales which means the dragon has to both win initiative, not easy with a low dex, and dramatically reduce his attack power by blowing an entire round on it. Not to mention he must blow that round whether the foe prepares shivering touch or not, unless he has some impressive scrying ability. It seems like a spell that makes all dragons in the world stand still for a round the moment they fight anyone would be the most loathed spell ever made and the very first spell to be banned. Because the cure itself is worse than the disease of "maybe he has shivering touch."
Yeah scintillating scales is great if you know you're about to land in the middle of some Necromancer's wraith parade (presumably to lay some hurt on the Necromancer in question), but it's not a general solution.


Dragons have a high attack bonus, far higher than their CR, and with the multi-attack feat only take a -2 on secondary attacks so they have little trouble hitting. It does help tremendously with power attack damage though, so overall I'd call it a gain to keep the spell. Dragons might even benefit more because they have more BAB to dump into it. Helping all dragons is better than helping some foes.
Sold. This is a world where the Council of Wyrms would have done battle against outsiders, aberrations, liches, and a variety of Epic threats, some of whom would presumably have a low touch AC.

So the current list of banned spells is:
- Shivering Touch
- Ray of Stupidity
- Ice Assassin
- Earthbind
- Downdraft

... plus some specific anti-Dragon spells which generally suck, so banning them isn't particularly game-changing, but in terms of theme there would be no reason for Dragons to keep these spells available:
- (Greater) Antidragon Aura
- Dragon Blight
- Diminish Breath Weapon
- Hide From Dragons
- (etc.)

[ericgrau]

Mage armor?
Great spell but doesn't help against touch attacks, including shivering touch. Does help against incorporeal touch attacks, but not most spells, not even wraithstrike in spite of the name.

[Zanos]

Another interpretation is that not very much would actually be banned, since the greatest threat to dragons in a world ruled by them is probably other dragons.

Specific anti-dragon spells probably wouldn't be expunged because dragons are going to be using them on each other. Likewise, spells that grant resistance to the abilities of other dragons probably won't be banned. A gold dragon is definitely going to want Energy Immunity if he's going up against a white dragon and vice versa.

This might cause a case of an agreed upon ban due to MAD, but I don't think any spells that a particularly effective against dragons actually matter all that much.

Instead, what I imagine being restricted are effects that grant abilities that dragon naturally possess. A dragon doesn't have much use for spells that grant flight, blindsense/sight, spell resistance, fear auras. non-enhancement natural armor bonuses, size increases, or high physical ability scores(other than dexterity).

[Nifft]

Another interpretation is that not very much would actually be banned, since the greatest threat to dragons in a world ruled by them is probably other dragons. The list is about 5 mainstream spells so yeah, not much seems banned.


Specific anti-dragon spells probably wouldn't be expunged because dragons are going to be using them on each other. Likewise, spells that grant resistance to the abilities of other dragons probably won't be banned. A gold dragon is definitely going to want Energy Immunity if he's going up against a white dragon and vice versa. Yeah the Energy Resist / Immune spells aren't on the ban-list at all. Dragons know they have vulnerabilities.