Is it just me, or is the Doctor kind of a douche?

[digiman619]

I've recently started getting into Doctor Who, but I can't stop thinking that he's kinda sanctimonious, and a hypocrite. The tenth doctor in particular seems douchy in Journey's End when he demonized his clone for killing off the Daleks. Dur to the fact that, unless they stopped them, the Daleks would destroy ALL OF EXISTENCE! Furthermore, even though it was reconned away, the Doctor has no moral leg to stand on, as, to stop the Time War, HE COMMITTED DOUBLE GENOCIDE! He literally did twice as bad before, yet the story paints him as the monster. Later on, the 11th, and even more in the 12th incarnation, he'd paint anyone who is/was a soldier as true evil, regardless of whether they saw combat or not, even though, and this point is quite important, HE'S ALSO A VETERAN! I get that they're going for the "war is hell" Aesop, but they do it to such an extreme that it stops being "War is Hell" and ends up being "Soldiers are Evil"!

[Lateral]

Yep.

[digiman619]

Yep.

'Yep' as in "Yes, he's kinda a jerk", or 'Yep' as "Yes, you're the only one"?

[jere7my]

I've recently started getting into Doctor Who, but I can't stop thinking that he's kinda sanctimonious, and a hypocrite. The tenth doctor in particular seems douchy in Journey's End when he demonized his clone for killing off the Daleks. Dur to the fact that, unless they stopped them, the Daleks would destroy ALL OF EXISTENCE! Furthermore, even though it was reconned away, the Doctor has no moral leg to stand on, as, to stop the Time War, HE COMMITTED DOUBLE GENOCIDE! He literally did twice as bad before, yet the story paints him as the monster. Later on, the 11th, and even more in the 12th incarnation, he'd paint anyone who is/was a soldier as true evil, regardless of whether they saw combat or not, even though, and this point is quite important, HE'S ALSO A VETERAN! I get that they're going for the "war is hell" Aesop, but they do it to such an extreme that it stops being "War is Hell" and ends up being "Soldiers are Evil"!

Sometimes people get irrationally angry when they see other people doing things they are angry at themselves for having done. It makes him a conflicted character; whether it makes him a douche is up to the individual viewer.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

This is basically the Tenth Doctor's run in a nutshell, IMO. Very emotional, hypocritical, and at times self-righteously smug. He sells it off with a chipper, charming personality, but there's a reason I'm not terribly fond of the direction that RTD took it in during Ten's time.

[BWR]

The Doctor has almost always been kind of smug and superior, but mostly he's been handled better than Ten.

[Professor Gnoll]

With the War Doctor in mind, Ten probably hated his clone because he reminded him of something he would very much like to forget. What was, in his mind, his greatest sin.

[digiman619]

With the War Doctor in mind, Ten probably hated his clone because he reminded him of something he would very much like to forget. What was, in his mind, his greatest sin.

I can accept that his genocide has made him pacifistic. If there was a peaceful alternative and the clone killed them anyway then the show would have a point demonizing him, but he is facing a foe that have repeatedly stated that its goals are THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL SENTIENT LIFE. Even with the Deus ex Machina stuff that he pulls out of nowhere, there was no peaceful alternative; the choices were a) Kill the Daleks, or b) LET THEM DESTROY THE UNIVERSE. There was no third option; no fancy technobabble, no reasoning with the enemy, no secret the Doctor was holding back. There was literally no other choice other then stand by and let them kill countless quintillions of people. Yet the clone is treated as unilaterally evil.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Ten is, by far, the worst incarnation of the character yet. Numbered, I mean. It's really difficult to get a proper grasp on things like The Watcher, The Valeyard or The War Doctor, but I digress. Of the main line of Doctors his entire run is a protracted bomb. I don't blame David Tennant. The man, by rights, is the most talented actor to have stepped into the role. As someone in this thread pointed out the writing during the early days of the reboot was really over the top and heavy handed and it had this really juvenile habit of overstating absolutely everything.

The fallout from this is that we have a Doctor whose only defining trait seems to be the messianic overtones forced upon him arbitrarily. There's some cognitive dissonance between how important the Doctor actually is and how important the show thinks he is. His every word brings with it such sanctimonious hyperbole and it's backed by one of the most dreadfully overdone directing of any sci fi show ever. Dramatic zooms and bombastic strings. It's all really over the top and really desperate to convince you that this guy is important and what he has to say is important.

Now, showrunners aren't stupid. Overzealous direction like this is put in place to guide you towards a conclusion. You can put ridiculous strings under someone reading the recipe to red velvet cupcakes and it would give that some weight and majesty, too. You can either have challenging, provocative and nuanced writing and risk alienating an audience. Or you could just end every episode with characters giving each other meaningful looks while this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2ZX42jK_s8) plays.

But by the same token, viewers aren't stupid either. What happens in a lot of cases, like yours for instance, is you've noticed the disconnect between the actions portrayed on the screen and the way it's depicted. All the cheesy, overdone directing in the world won't distract smart viewers from bad writing. Now if they had intended Ten to come off as sanctimonious and used that to their advantage we might have had something. But graphs showed that viewers don't respond well to moral grey area, and the BBC has to move these Dalek pencil sharpeners somehow. So they slapped a big gaudy patch over the difficult parts and hoped we wouldn't notice.

My advice? Drop the series and listen to the Eighth Doctor audio dramas on Big Finish. It shares a lot of themes and motifs with the Ten era but in a subtle, clever and three dimensional way. The format basically demands you put effort into the characters and dialogue, anyway. Even when it's bad it's always a noble failure for that effort.

[Professor Gnoll]

I can accept that his genocide has made him pacifistic. If there was a peaceful alternative and the clone killed them anyway then the show would have a point demonizing him, but he is facing a foe that have repeatedly stated that its goals are THE DESTRUCTION OF ALL SENTIENT LIFE. Even with the Deus ex Machina stuff that he pulls out of nowhere, there was no peaceful alternative; the choices were a) Kill the Daleks, or b) LET THEM DESTROY THE UNIVERSE. There was no third option; no fancy technobabble, no reasoning with the enemy, no secret the Doctor was holding back. There was literally no other choice other then stand by and let them kill countless quintillions of people. Yet the clone is treated as unilaterally evil.Oh, he was absolutely being a judgemental hypocrite. I'm just saying that the reason he reacted in such a way was because he hated being reminded of his past mistakes.

[Kitten Champion]

Actually why I wasn't particularly fond of the show. Well, that and its bloated continuity and tendency to recycle itself to lesser and lesser effect (which, incidentally, are also my chief issue with the X-Men now that I think about it). A number of times while I was watching it I saw resemblances to first season TNG in his dialogue, but unlike TNG it seemed unsure of itself whether he was someone's Mary Sue-esque ideal or tragically flawed and requiring a Human companion to set him straight. Sometimes the Mary Sue was the companion, and the Doctor's just there to elevate/shill their character.

I guess, I like the premise - and a quarter of the episodes I saw, particularly without the companion - but it quickly lost its charm the more serious it became.

[digiman619]

Oh, he was absolutely being a judgemental hypocrite. I'm just saying that the reason he reacted in such a way was because he hated being reminded of his past mistakes.

You're arguing for Shinji. I don't care that the whole crapsack world he lives in is only supposed to mirror his tragic mental state; the Angels will destroy all of humanity, we don't have time for your angst.

EDIT: Forgive my analogy, I meant that the why is far less important than the what; motivations are important, but actions are what people are judged by.

[Professor Gnoll]

You're arguing for Shinji. I don't care that the whole crapsack world he lives in is only supposed to mirror his tragic mental state; the Angels will destroy all of humanity, we don't have time for your angst.

EDIT: Forgive my analogy, I meant that the why is far less important than the what; motivations are important, but actions are what people are judged by.I'm in complete agreement. Especially because his reasons are terrible, and boil down to 'I don't like self-reflection. Go die in an alternate universe.'

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Actually why I wasn't particularly fond of the show. Well, that and its bloated continuity and tendency to recycle itself to lesser and lesser effect (which, incidentally, are also my chief issue with the X-Men now that I think about it). A number of times while I was watching it I saw resemblances to first season TNG in his dialogue, but unlike TNG it seemed unsure of itself whether he was someone's Mary Sue-esque ideal or tragically flawed and requiring a Human companion to set him straight. Sometimes the Mary Sue was the companion, and the Doctor's just there to elevate/shill their character.

I guess, I like the premise - and a quarter of the episodes I saw, particularly without the companion - but it quickly lost its charm the more serious it became.

I can't say "Classic Series and audio" enough.

Seriously, the new series is swill. I'm starting to resent how its outrageous and frankly baffling lack of quality is defining the entire 50 year franchise of books, comics, radio plays and television serials.

Honestly. You resent how much the new series takes itself too seriously? Amen, brother. And I am one of the biggest, most pathetic Doctor Who nerds I know. I drove for hours just to see Frazer Hines live at a convention. If you can handle the production values I highly recommend the high concept farce that is 'City of Death' for a watch.

[Drascin]

You're arguing for Shinji. I don't care that the whole crapsack world he lives in is only supposed to mirror his tragic mental state; the Angels will destroy all of humanity, we don't have time for your angst.

EDIT: Forgive my analogy, I meant that the why is far less important than the what; motivations are important, but actions are what people are judged by.

You realize that you're excusing the Doctor here. Shinji was a tremendously heroic character by the "actions count more than explanations" metric. Most teenagers in Shinji's circumstances would have just melted into a puddle of panic by the first fight, Shinji saved the world multiple times until he finally cracked :smalltongue:.

[Kitten Champion]

I can't say "Classic Series and audio" enough.

Seriously, the new series is swill. I'm starting to resent how its outrageous and frankly baffling lack of quality is defining the entire 50 year franchise of books, comics, radio plays and television serials.

Honestly. You resent how much the new series takes itself too seriously? Amen, brother. And I am one of the biggest, most pathetic Doctor Who nerds I know. I drove for hours just to see Frazer Hines live at a convention. If you can handle the production values I highly recommend the high concept farce that is 'City of Death' for a watch.

I agree with you evidently, but my portal to Doctor Who is basically Netflix - which, at least here - is entirely the 2000's stuff.

There were three story arcs available from the classic series which were on there though, and probably picked because they were so well received. The ones about the Space Ark, the Mummy robots, and one set in Paris about aliens using time travel for fun and profit. I sincerely enjoyed them, and if they made more available I'd try them as well.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I agree with you evidently, but my portal to Doctor Who is basically Netflix - which, at least here - is entirely the 2000's stuff.

There were three story arcs available from the classic series which were on there though, and probably picked because they were so well received. The ones about the Space Ark, the Mummy robots, and one set in Paris about aliens using time travel for fun and profit. I sincerely enjoyed them, and if they made more available I'd try them as well.

That third one is actually City of Death. So you beat me to it.

The other two are Fourth Doctor classics (though I argue Pyramids of Mars is a bit overrated). The BBC does make it strangely difficult to get your hands on certain episodes. Almost as if they don't want to invite the comparison. In their defence a lot of them from the First and Second Doctor era are missing. Purged from the archives in the 70s. Frustratingly they all happen to be among the best episodes they ever put out.

As for everything else, I highly recommend you make the effort to track down some serials using whatever means you can. Investing in the DVDs can be costly, I know (I have all of them) but I'm sure they've been digitally distributed in some way. If you'll take my recommendations, here's where I'd start for all of the Doctors.

First Doctor
The Aztecs - Probably the greatest Doctor Who television episode in history. The history and attention to detail gives it a sense of real majesty and scope. The real appeal comes from the carefully considered socratic undertones and the philosophical grey areas the serial tackles. It's a nuanced character drama and a provocative two sided argument all in one.

The Rescue - At two episodes it's a compact little fix of First Doctor realness. Hartnell puts in a stunning performance, too. It's kind of a mystery/thriller so I can give away very little, suffice it to say they make the most of their brisk runtime and whip up something that's as taut and potent as it can be.

Second Doctor
To get the best out of Patrick Troughton you really have to watch the reconstructions. It's regrettable, I know, but there are so few complete serials from him and the ones we get (like The Dominators or The Krotons) are near universally terrible. I can't recommend reconstructions as a jumping on point, though. So I'll just give you the one recommendation.

The Enemy of the World - Recovered serial found in 2013 features Troughton in a rare dual role as both The Doctor and the villain Salamander. While it's not Two's greatest triumph it's still an excellent spy/espionage blockbuster with some stellar performances.

Third Doctor
The Dæmons - The fan consensus puts both this and The Girl in the Fireplace as the reigning all-time greatest TV episodes in the franchise. With the former I can easily see why. The atmosphere is thick enough that it creeps into the room. It's aided by a beautifully paranoid script and some genuinely stellar art direction. The Dæmons is in heavy rotation for me. Doctor Who would never do horror this good again.

The Green Death - Ahead of its time both in its alternative depiction of artificial intelligence and its progressive looks towards labor politics and environmentalism. The threat is very human and there are no proxies to soften the blow of the themes.

Fourth Doctor
Genesis of the Daleks - Famously taking the most boring recurring antagonists in human history and making them compelling, unique and interesting. It's bleak and all shades of grey have been swapped for a pitch black malaise, but it still manages to put forth some serious ethical questions. Character and wit oozes from even the most incidental dialogue here, and it's guided by some truly memorable directing.

The Robots of Death - The sense of mounting claustrophobia is reminiscent of Ridley Scott's alien, but the layered plotting and character depth brings one more in mind of Hitchcock. If you're a fan of either of those things, Robots of Death is a must. Heck, even if you aren't a fan of those things I'd suggest it.

Fifth Doctor
Castrovalva - My second personal favourite after The Aztecs and unquestionably the best regeneration story to date (a genre doomed to mediocrity, sadly.) Castrovalva takes an interesting perspective on the concept of regenerations, using it as an external metaphor for recursion and inevitability. The symbolism in Castrovalva is just stunning, I must have watched it twelve or so times and I'm still finding new details in it that enrich the experience.

Kinda - This one's kind of weird. You'll either adore it or you'll really really hate it. The production values are, admittedly, a bit of a hurdle here. That's in spite of some truly inspired art design. But it's really the script that stays with you. It deals with similar themes to Castrovalva but takes a more spiritual and naturalistic perspective on it. The best part is that it's integrated beautifully. It never feels preachy or overdone, but rather it comes naturally out of the script. It's heavily flawed, but its ambition more than makes up for it.

Sixth Doctor
Vengeance on Varos - Prophetic in its prediction of reality game show mania and celebrity worship. The social commentary is a bit heavy handed but Varos is one of the better realised worlds in Doctor Who's canon. If you're a fan of worldbuilding you're going to adore this one. It's the details they didn't have to include that make this one. For example, a couple at home watches the events on TV from a safe distance and provides commentary at intervals. It adds nothing to the plot but is so informative about this world and the circumstances it's in.

Revelation of the Daleks - Like Kinda this one is sort of a "love it or hate it" kind of deal. That's partially because it's one of the earliest examples of "Doctor Lite", that is to say, an episode that's carried mostly by its supporting cast. It's a refreshing change of pace. But the gore and the commentary can border on the tasteless at times. If you like your horror unflinching, grisly and uncompromising it makes an appropriate bleak, weirdly comical detour into ick.

Seventh Doctor
Paradise Towers - Oh, screw all of you! This one kicks ass and I don't care what anyone says. Yeah, as you may have guessed this isn't the most highly regarded of classic serials. It's often clocked for campy overtones and gaudy art direction. Both of these are perfectly within the context of the serial, though, given that it's a Gilbert and Sullivan esque social farce. With more death robots, granted, but still. Paradise Towers is hilarious, clever and deliciously high concept. I love it.

The Curse of Fenric - I can't describe this one without giving something away, so I'll let this one be a bit more of a discovery. Suffice it to say that the new series has been desperately chasing this dream. They haven't come close, mind, but make of that what you will.

[tensai_oni]

You realize that you're excusing the Doctor here. Shinji was a tremendously heroic character by the "actions count more than explanations" metric. Most teenagers in Shinji's circumstances would have just melted into a puddle of panic by the first fight, Shinji saved the world multiple times until he finally cracked :smalltongue:.

Most teenagers? Heck, try most human beings. Shinji is being manipulated by everyone, including and especially his own dad and anyone who tries to be a parent figure to him. He is forced to fight incredibly terrifying monsters and his own robot* is almost equally as terrifying and he feels every single wound it gets. And for all of that, he barely gets any respect, if at all.

He whines and complains, who wouldn't? He even tries to quit. But in the end when the chips are down - Shinji gets in the damn robot*. As long as a single teen's efforts can make a difference, he's going out there to save the world. And even when it's no longer his call, he still managed to save the world in the end. Kinda. It's complicated.

*Not a robot, I know.

[digiman619]

Most teenagers? Heck, try most human beings. Shinji is being manipulated by everyone, including and especially his own dad and anyone who tries to be a parent figure to him. He is forced to fight incredibly terrifying monsters and his own robot* is almost equally as terrifying and he feels every single wound it gets. And for all of that, he barely gets any respect, if at all.

He whines and complains, who wouldn't? He even tries to quit. But in the end when the chips are down - Shinji gets in the damn robot*. As long as a single teen's efforts can make a difference, he's going out there to save the world. And even when it's no longer his call, he still managed to save the world in the end. Kinda. It's complicated.

*Not a robot, I know.

Y'know what? Forget I mentioned Shinji.

[Hopeless]

In regards to Ten yes he is.

Eleven I feel at least tries to get better but Twelve understands he has problems but went the completely wrong way in dealing with it!

Nine at least tries to reconnect, Eight has his audio adventures, I think Four is the most likeable but otherwise yes he is, its just that his companions and humanity most particularly Donna have been making it clear why he shouldn't be like that!

[factotum]

To some extent we can make the excuse that the Doctor, despite looking human, is in fact an alien and has some alien thought processes. A lot of it has to be blamed on the writing, though, as already pointed out. Peter Capaldi is a darned fine actor, for instance, yet his Doctor was so unrelentingly unlikable in his first series that I stopped watching it after 4 episodes--the second series was somewhat better, although still not quite there.

Oh, and I agree with DJ Yung Crunk--there isn't anything in the new Who that's fit to shine the shoes of "City of Death" and other classics from the original series. I guess that just goes to show that Douglas Adams was a far, far better writer than RTD or Moffat, and now I'm depressed that he died far too young. :smallfrown:

[digiman619]

Oh, and I agree with DJ Yung Crunk--there isn't anything in the new Who that's fit to shine the shoes of "City of Death" and other classics from the original series. I guess that just goes to show that Douglas Adams was a far, far better writer than RTD or Moffat, and now I'm depressed that he died far too young. :smallfrown:

Too true. But then again, Adams wrote The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so he's obviously the better writer. :smalltongue:

[Aedilred]

The Tenth Doctor was often quite badly written, and has an alarming tendency to come across as a preachy, sanctimonious hypocrite. This is occasionally addressed directly, as in his very last couple of episodes, but there is still a lot of teeth-grinding to be done over some elements of the RTD era. As mentioned earlier in the thread, most Doctors are handled better. Whether lessons were learned from the missteps of the Tennant stint, the Eleventh Doctor presents himself as more of a classic antihero, despite being fundamentally heroic (e.g. "Good men don't need rules; today is not the day to find out why I have so many"), and for me the Eleventh carries the show a lot better than the Tenth did, even if Moffat's production makes at least as many missteps as RTD's did.

Early Doctors often tended towards the aloof, irascible or weird, which is not to say they weren't capable of warmth. The Fifth Doctor was probably the most unambiguously good-nice, to the extent that a number of his plots almost run to Break the Cutie levels as the writers seek to put him through the wringer; the douchiest of the lot was probably the Sixth Doctor, albeit he wasn't helped by some abysmal writing at times.


The man, by rights, is the most talented actor to have stepped into the role.
While I agree that the problems with the Tenth Doctor's era are, by and large, not Tennant's fault (although some of his mannerisms as an actor irritate me in other roles in a similar way to the way his Doctor did at times), I think this does a disservice to Paul McGann and Peter Capaldi, not to mention John Hurt who it's probably fair to elide. Matt Smith, too, I thought did an excellent job, but he hasn't had enough of a career outside Who to judge his true range, I think.

[Eldan]

The sixth doctor is often quite... not nice. He's a bit better at times in his very good audio range.
The seventh doctor is interesting. I haven't actually seen him on TV, as far as I can remember, but in his audios, which I love, I call him the "Sneaky Doctor". He always has plans that he doesn't share. McCoy is a master in implying a lot with the tone of just one spoken syllable. He can get an entire range of emotions across with just a "yeeees...".

[DJ Yung Crunk]

The Sixth Doctor is incredibly underrated. A lot of people point out that his TV episodes weren't of a terribly good quality. I can't argue that with garbage like The Twin Dilemma, Timelash or The Ultimate Foe. But there are, what, 12 TV serials in Six's run? Three of those are Revelation of the Daleks, Vengeance on Varos and Mindwarp, and those serials are bloody masterpieces. That's a 25 percent rate of great-to-perfect TV episodes that Eight, Nine, Ten, Eleven and Twelve can only dream of.

His character is a lot more layered than people give it credit for. There's a vulnerability and insecurity that his posturing and abrasiveness is a front for. Certainly he's abrasive, but it feels like a response to how much he got the **** kicked out of him as Five. Underneath all the bluster there are moments of insecurity and fear that peek through. They're infrequent but that just makes them more potent when they do appear. No spoilers, but the very end of Mindwarp for anyone who remembers that one. One of the most powerful and emotional moments in show's history. All in three words and an utterly unbelievable performance from Colin Baker.

"You... killed Peri?" (https://youtu.be/e20Wn7Z7uAI?t=160)

But, yes, as Eldan pointed out the qualities of Six are vastly improved in the audio. Mostly for the simple reason that the individual episodes are a lot better. I can talk about Colin Baker's talent or the grand design of The Sixth Doctor all I want but there's no room for either of those to fully emerge in trash like Attack of the Cybermen or Timelash. In audio, though, he's outstanding. General school of though suggests that if Eight's got the best audio stories, Six is nipping at his heels. And then there's Jubilee. I'm not even going to comment on Jubilee. Y'all should just listen to it.


While I agree that the problems with the Tenth Doctor's era are, by and large, not Tennant's fault (although some of his mannerisms as an actor irritate me in other roles in a similar way to the way his Doctor did at times), I think this does a disservice to Paul McGann and Peter Capaldi, not to mention John Hurt who it's probably fair to elide. Matt Smith, too, I thought did an excellent job, but he hasn't had enough of a career outside Who to judge his true range, I think.

John Hurt is, as I discussed, out. Otherwise, yeah, that's a shoe-in.

Paul McGann? Really? I like the guy but his range is pretty limited and even within there he can be pretty wooden at times. Matt Smith is an even more odd choice. To put it bluntly, he's not a good actor. Like, not in the slightest. I'd actually say he's a dead lock for the worst actor to take the role. He overegestures with his body but underemotes with his face. This isn't a Doctor Who thing, either, in everything else I've seen him in he always seems to be self conscious about what he's doing with his body. Peter Capaldi I might have to concede. I've seen about four Twelve episodes and absolutely nothing else he's been in. Maybe he's terrific, I don't know.

[Quild]

I suppose that Ten refers to Tennant rather than Hurt :smallwink:

I was under the impression that along with physical changes, the Doctor could have personality changes when he comes to a new incarnation.
I don't think that he ever uses it as an excuse for his past actions, but it hardly makes him an hypocrite to have change his mind since then.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

I suppose that Ten refers to Tennant rather than Hurt :smallwink:

No. Ten refers to The Tenth Doctor, as played on TV by David Tennant.

Tennant and Hurt are talented actors who, evidently, have a bad taste in managers.

[Psyren]

Man, if you think 10 is a hypocrite/douche, just wait until you meet 12/Capaldi. And I say that as a huge fan of 12 :smallbiggrin:

[Kitten Champion]

Man, if you think 10 is a hypocrite/douche, just wait until you meet 12/Capaldi. And I say that as a huge fan of 12 :smallbiggrin:

Which actually reminds me... there's also Torchwood, which seemed utterly committed to depicting its characters as the most self-centred and hypocritical a-holes in all of SF.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Which actually reminds me... there's also Torchwood, which seemed utterly committed to depicting its characters as the most self-centred and hypocritical a-holes in all of SF.

Nobody actually likes Torchwood, though.

Do they?

[Kitten Champion]

Nobody actually likes Torchwood, though.

Do they?

I assume someone did, at least at some point.

[Spojaz]

Of course the Doctor is a jerk, he is another incarnation of the most interesting character archetype our society has - the Sherlock Holmes.

With their own brand of misunderstanding-causing brusqueness, some interesting past that excuses the excesses, a unique mindset that screws up boring relationships, and a brilliant mind that just gets things done, the Sherlock Holmes archetype is strong enough to create and resolve all the drama your franchise could ever need. This character is both deeply flawed and brilliant, alternating as emotional weight, comic relief and audience stand in. Why create your own character when this one will work even better? Just twist it a little to fit your own setting and you're ready to go!

*Already used in: House MD, Psych, Big Bang Theory, M.A.S.H., The Blacklist, Criminal Minds, Monk, Fringe, Bones, Dr. Who, Daredevil, Batman...

[digiman619]

Which actually reminds me... there's also Torchwood, which seemed utterly committed to depicting its characters as the most self-centred and hypocritical a-holes in all of SF.

I actually saw some Torchwood; I have two problems with it: a) why is everyone one the show bi? I don't have a problem with characters of any preference or orientation, but it seemed that everyone on the show could be seduced by either gender for no real reason. and b) when they had a one of the characters (I don't remember which) stated that finding evidence that other alien species went to war, they found it depressing. I'd find that very reassuring, as so many pieces of fiction point at humanity as flawed and unworthy because we haven't 'evolved past the need for war' or some such nonsense, but that would just mean that those flaws aren't just us, it's an aspect of people.

[BWR]

I thought Torchwood was ok, except for that horrible woman who was intended to be the primary protagonist. It tried a little too hard to be edgy, which almost always ends poorly, but it was entertaining enough. Season 3, Children of Earth, was pretty damn good. Season 4 had some good ideas, writing and scenes but suffered from stupid writing towards the end and the fact that it was either too long or too short.

[Darth Ultron]

I've recently started getting into Doctor Who, but I can't stop thinking that he's kinda sanctimonious, and a hypocrite.

You are correct.

The Doctor has always been too. You can find tons and tons and tons and tons of examples.

The one where the Doctor decides to ''hide and play human'' says it the best ''just as he wanted to hide, there was lots of death, destruction and bad things. Everything/everyone is just a toy or pet to him.''.

It's bad enough that the Doctor knows the history of the universe. So everything is ''the past'' to him. And even if you by the whole ''time is in flux'' you'd still get the 9 out of 10 probability. And yet, while untold billions of people die, the Doctor just has tea.

Oh, sure when he ''um, randomly'' shows up on a farm somewhere he sort of cares and sort of tries to help. Though with his ''help'' lots of people still die, often while the Doctor who has an idea what might be going on just stands around and does something utterly dumb as the bodies pile up.

And the Doctor is often quite bias for humans, and often straight up murders any other race.

[Brother Oni]

Nobody actually likes Torchwood, though.

Do they?

*Holds hand up* I liked Torchwood - not the bits they tried to make edgy, but how the ordinary mortals deal with alien events when their guardian deity isn't around ("Turn Left" of the main series is another good example).

As BWR said, Season 3 Children of the Earth was great with some very hard choices made by the characters and unlike the Doctor, they have to live with the consequences of them (as mentioned by Ashildr/Me in the latest series).

[Anna1996]

Of course he's a douche :D But that actually works for him and the series- the same goes to House MD>- but you'll never say any of these series is boring because really, their douchery is the most entertaining thing out there.

[digiman619]

Of course he's a douche :D But that actually works for him and the series- the same goes to House MD>- but you'll never say any of these series is boring because really, their douchery is the most entertaining thing out there.

But at least House has the decency of admitting that Dr House is an *******; Doctor Who would have us believe its main character to be a perfect paragon of virtue.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

So many people in this thread conflating a 50 year multimedia franchise with just one stretch of bad TV seasons.

[digiman619]

So many people in this thread conflating a 50 year multimedia franchise with just one stretch of bad TV seasons.

Well, Superman used to be more than Space-Jesus, but 90+% of the time that's how he's written these days.

[Darth Ultron]

But at least House has the decency of admitting that Dr House is an *******; Doctor Who would have us believe its main character to be a perfect paragon of virtue.

The show sure does not present the Dcotor as a perfect paragon of virtue. They are more then willing to admit and show that he is not.


So many people in this thread conflating a 50 year multimedia franchise with just one stretch of bad TV seasons.

It's not like the douche Doctor is only NewWho, he has been like this forever....

And even if the new writers are bad, and don't write the character like the old one...they are still trapped by the basic Doctor Who Formula: The Doctor random(but maybe not) goes somewhere(though often England) just minutes before an evil scientist/alien/monster/whatever does an evil fiendish plot. The Doctor acts like an idiot and does at lot of running away. Then saves the day/world in the worst deus ex machina way possible. And with that formula, there is not enough runtime for the Doctor to be a good angel.

[digiman619]

The show sure does not present the Doctor as a perfect paragon of virtue. They are more then willing to admit and show that he is not.


You say that, but 90+% of the time, anyone who in any way contradicts him is treated as either a fool and/or evil.

[Darth Ultron]

You say that, but 90+% of the time, anyone who in any way contradicts him is treated as either a fool and/or evil.

Most companions have pointed this out at one time or another, I don't think that makes them ''evil'' or ''fools''.

If anything, the show runs on the Doctor being ''an idiot with a box'', not a ''paragon of virtue''.

[Godskook]

I've recently started getting into Doctor Who, but I can't stop thinking that he's kinda sanctimonious, and a hypocrite. The tenth doctor in particular seems douchy in Journey's End when he demonized his clone for killing off the Daleks. Dur to the fact that, unless they stopped them, the Daleks would destroy ALL OF EXISTENCE! Furthermore, even though it was reconned away, the Doctor has no moral leg to stand on, as, to stop the Time War, HE COMMITTED DOUBLE GENOCIDE! He literally did twice as bad before, yet the story paints him as the monster. Later on, the 11th, and even more in the 12th incarnation, he'd paint anyone who is/was a soldier as true evil, regardless of whether they saw combat or not, even though, and this point is quite important, HE'S ALSO A VETERAN! I get that they're going for the "war is hell" Aesop, but they do it to such an extreme that it stops being "War is Hell" and ends up being "Soldiers are Evil"!

The single most important thing to understanding Doctor is realizing that the Doctor is fallible. Yes, he has opinions, but his opinions, despite being the flagship opinions of the show, aren't actually supposed to be the show's opinions. Danny Pink is a classic example. From start to finish, the Doctor judges Danny more harshly and irrationally than vice versa. Hell, despite the Doctor's grandstanding, Danny comes off more sympathetic in basically every scene I've seen the two of them in.

Hell, the Doctor will be the first to tell you: He's not a good man.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

And even if the new writers are bad, and don't write the character like the old one...they are still trapped by the basic Doctor Who Formula: The Doctor random(but maybe not) goes somewhere(though often England) just minutes before an evil scientist/alien/monster/whatever does an evil fiendish plot. The Doctor acts like an idiot and does at lot of running away. Then saves the day/world in the worst deus ex machina way possible. And with that formula, there is not enough runtime for the Doctor to be a good angel.

http://i.imgur.com/iaKJYmF.png

Right. Like I said, a lot of people in this thread conflating a few bad TV seasons to an expansive multimedia franchise.

[factotum]

Then saves the day/world in the worst deus ex machina way possible. And with that formula, there is not enough runtime for the Doctor to be a good angel.

Sorry, but that is definitely only looking at NuWho. The classic series would spread a story over as many episodes as it took--"City of Death" was four 25-minute episodes, which is the length of an average movie, and the "Key to Time" arc covered the entire sixteenth series (26 episodes). NuWho may have longer episodes, but it very rarely uses double episodes, so overall the stories are shorter.

[Rodin]

Sorry, but that is definitely only looking at NuWho. The classic series would spread a story over as many episodes as it took--"City of Death" was four 25-minute episodes, which is the length of an average movie, and the "Key to Time" arc covered the entire sixteenth series (26 episodes). NuWho may have longer episodes, but it very rarely uses double episodes, so overall the stories are shorter.

This is probably the biggest weakness of NuWho. I think the Doctor Who format was just better in 30 minute chunks, as it gave the plot time to breathe.

However, I will say that there is definitely a huge nostalgia filter going on with Classic Who. I started with McCoy myself, and going back and watching those...whoo, they were dated. I tried to go back and watch the old Tom Baker episodes, and it was...not good. Maybe the serial I picked was a poor one (one where the Doctor was after an artifact along with several other groups trying to steal it from a room guarded by a monster), and the cheesiness of it was just through the roof. It really made me wonder if that was just Doctor Who back then, or if Blake's Seven would look the same to me now if I tried to go back and re-watch those.

For me, Doctor Who has always been a show of brilliant episodes, rather than being a brilliant show overall. NuWho has fantastic episodes like Silence in the Library, Midnight, Turn Left, etc. McCoy's Who had fantastic serials like the Curse of Fenric and Remembrance of the Daleks.

But in between those episodes is the one where killer dolls come after them, or where people are being eaten by their garbage disposals. And it wouldn't surprise me if both of those plots have happened more than once.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

For me, Doctor Who has always been a show of brilliant episodes, rather than being a brilliant show overall. NuWho has fantastic episodes like Silence in the Library, Midnight, Turn Left, etc.

To each her own, I guess. I think what you've listed here has dated far more badly than 70s Who.

[Aedilred]

The Sixth Doctor is incredibly underrated. A lot of people point out that his TV episodes weren't of a terribly good quality. I can't argue that with garbage like The Twin Dilemma, Timelash or The Ultimate Foe. But there are, what, 12 TV serials in Six's run? Three of those are Revelation of the Daleks, Vengeance on Varos and Mindwarp, and those serials are bloody masterpieces. That's a 25 percent rate of great-to-perfect TV episodes that Eight, Nine, Ten, Eleven and Twelve can only dream of.
I've not listened to the audio stuff, though I've seen most of his TV run. Enough was apparent there to make it clear he was badly served; it certainly doesn't help the way he was established, I think. Is there a steeper drop in quality anywhere in Who than from The Caves of Androzani to The Twin Dilemma? His first actions out of the box are to insult his much more sympathetic predecessor, choose an outfit of eye-melting horribleness and attempt to strangle his companion. It's hard to rebuild a character after that, and a lot of the time it seems they're not even trying.


Paul McGann? Really? I like the guy but his range is pretty limited and even within there he can be pretty wooden at times. Matt Smith is an even more odd choice. To put it bluntly, he's not a good actor. Like, not in the slightest. I'd actually say he's a dead lock for the worst actor to take the role. He overegestures with his body but underemotes with his face. This isn't a Doctor Who thing, either, in everything else I've seen him in he always seems to be self conscious about what he's doing with his body. Peter Capaldi I might have to concede. I've seen about four Twelve episodes and absolutely nothing else he's been in. Maybe he's terrific, I don't know.
As I say I haven't seen enough of Smith outside Who to judge him as an actor. It might be that the reason he came across as such a good Doctor for me is that everything was written around him and thus turned his flaws as an actor into features not bugs. I don't know. I quite rate Paul McGann though. Capaldi has done some good stuff throughout his career but his most notable role is in The Thick of It, a political satire-sitcom which for quite a while was just about the best thing on TV, and he was right at the centre of it. When he became the Doctor there were a lot of jokes made about that. It's also quite shocking to see how much he aged over the course of that show; playing Malcolm Tucker seems to have been almost as stressful as actually being Malcolm Tucker would have been over that period.


I suppose that Ten refers to Tennant rather than Hurt :smallwink:
Chronologically, Hurt was the ninth Doctor (in-universe, although something like the twentieth to play the character IRL, especially if you include the Comic Relief episode). However, because he was introduced so late in the mythology, and because later Doctors preferred IC to forget about him, Ecclestone's Doctor is still numbered as the Ninth. The War Doctor and the Metacrisis Doctor are not generally numbered. Nor is the Valeyard, although that's as much as anything because we haven't got to him yet so we don't know what his number would be. You may know this already, in which case ignore me. But Hurt wasn't, I think, the tenth doctor by any numbering scheme unless the Watcher and the Valeyard are included, which they never are.


I was under the impression that along with physical changes, the Doctor could have personality changes when he comes to a new incarnation.
I don't think that he ever uses it as an excuse for his past actions, but it hardly makes him an hypocrite to have change his mind since then.
I don't think anyone is holding it against the Tenth Doctor that he's preachy about the morality of actions he himself has performend in prior incarnations (or indeed in subsequent ones). It's more that he's preachy about actions he did last week, or goes on to do tomorrow, or is performing at the same time as he's complaining about other people doing them. It comes across as very much as "do as I say, not as I do".


To each her own, I guess. I think what you've listed here has dated far more badly than 70s Who.
This is a problem with the RTD episodes in particular, I think. Of course the budget of classic Who fluctuated enormously: for periods during the McCoy era it seems like it was being made on a budget of about £1.50 and filmed on a toaster. But the thing about crappy production is that, so long as it's not too crappy (hi, Ed Wood!) after a while suspension of disbelief takes over. So the wobbly sets and cheap special effects (which weren't so apparent in the 70s anyway), although you can date the production by it, don't make it look quite so dated as they could, if you see what I mean. Static cinematography is more of an issue, and this is a flaw of a lot of otherwise classic TV shows (see I, Claudius, House of Cards, Tinker Tailor) but that varies by director. I've already mentioned The Caves of Androzani, above, but the camerawork in that hasn't really dated at all despite the thirty-odd-years.

On the other hand, I think it's pretty much universally acknowledged that NuWho, and the RTD era in particular, is over-produced. That's certainly not the only reason it's dated - the RTD episodes are at times almost aggressively Noughties in their sensibilities - but that the production is very IN YOUR FACE and the music is blaring at you to BE EXCITED makes it much harder to ignore than the cardboard-and-recorder business of Classic Who. It's the same kind of principle often applied by second-rate film directors given large budgets, apparently without realising that the more attention you draw to the glitziness of the production, the worse it's going to date.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the NuWho episode widely considered the best is Blink, which is notable for being relatively low-key in terms of production (and also, not featuring the Doctor that much). For that matter, The Eleventh Hour, another high-quality NuWho episode, also plays down the special effects, with only the antagonists really making use of any and their getting relatively little screen time.

I'm not sure the lesson has been learned, though.

[Psyren]

You say that, but 90+% of the time, anyone who in any way contradicts him is treated as either a fool and/or evil.

This is false, his companions have "What The Hell Hero"-ed him routinely. In fact, one of the main themes of the show is that he needs a companion to be that moral center/mortal (wo)man viewpoint, or he'll devolve into a toxic spiral of apathy and/or douchebaggery and hang it all up. Paragon he ain't.

[Darth Ultron]

[SPOILER]

Right. Like I said, a lot of people in this thread conflating a few bad TV seasons to an expansive multimedia franchise.

So by ''multimedia'' are talking about all the horrible radio dramas? The comics? The novels? They are just as bad, if not worse then just the TV show.


Sorry, but that is definitely only looking at NuWho. The classic series would spread a story over as many episodes as it took--"City of Death" was four 25-minute episodes, which is the length of an average movie, and the "Key to Time" arc covered the entire sixteenth series (26 episodes). NuWho may have longer episodes, but it very rarely uses double episodes, so overall the stories are shorter.

It's OldWho too. The formula has not changed. The old ones just dragged more in the start and/or middle. The Doctor would still go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

So by ''multimedia'' are talking about all the horrible radio dramas? The comics? The novels? They are just as bad, if not worse then just the TV show.

Aw, come on. Horrible is as far an adjective as you could possibly use for something like Farewell, Great Macedon, Jubilee, Peri and the Piscon Paradox or Scherzo.


It's OldWho too. The formula has not changed. The old ones just dragged more in the start and/or middle. The Doctor would still go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes.

I genuinely do not observe this in the large majority of episodes. Guess we just agree to disagree?

[dps]

As others have said, it's not just a NuWho thing. Almost all incarnations of the Doctor have been smug, arrogant jerks at times, except Five (who was almost invariably polite and friendly) and, to a lesser extent, Two (who would sometimes verbally savage the villains, but was usually friendly to everyone else).

[Godskook]

This is false, his companions have "What The Hell Hero"-ed him routinely. In fact, one of the main themes of the show is that he needs a companion to be that moral center/mortal (wo)man viewpoint, or he'll devolve into a toxic spiral of apathy and/or douchebaggery and hang it all up. Paragon he ain't.

This was even a central theme of David Tennant's run. From the scribble-monster episode to Water on Mars, his run goes into detail about the fact that the Doctor loses himself when he's left unchecked. In many ways, the Doctor is who his companions allow him to be.

[Aedilred]

This was even a central theme of David Tennant's run. From the scribble-monster episode

God, that episode was awful.

[Androgeus]

God, that episode was awful.

To be fair, the script was a late replacement when the writer for the episode originally in that slot dropped out (Stephen Fry I think). To also be fair, just because it's rushed doesn't mean it can get away with being awful.

[Aedilred]

To be fair, the script was a late replacement when the writer for the episode originally in that slot dropped out (Stephen Fry I think). To also be fair, just because it's rushed doesn't mean it can get away with being awful.

To be fair on my own part, I think the antagonist of the week, the Isolus-girl, has potential and could have been quite compelling (see a not dissimilar concept handled rather better in Night Terrors). The problems mostly come with the way it's crowbarred into the Olympic setting (which also dates it really badly) and an utterly rubbish ending.

[dps]

To be fair on my own part, I think the antagonist of the week, the Isolus-girl, has potential and could have been quite compelling (see a not dissimilar concept handled rather better in Night Terrors). The problems mostly come with the way it's crowbarred into the Olympic setting (which also dates it really badly) and an utterly rubbish ending.

Sometimes it seemed like every other episode of Ten and Eleven's run was resolved by "The Power of Love"(TM). It actually made sense in Night Terrors because the issue there was a child's fear of abandonment--of course the parent showing obvious affection for the child is going to help that problem. Powering up a spaceship through the power of love, though--not so much. Truly a rubbish ending.

[Darth Ultron]

I genuinely do not observe this in the large majority of episodes. Guess we just agree to disagree?

This kinda makes me wonder if you even watch Doctor Who? The '' Doctor would go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes'' is just about every episode.

But, ok, can you name say five episodes where:

A)The Doctor does not go to a place at random
B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot
C)The Doctor has arrived, amazingly, right before the evil plot was to be completed
D)The Doctor does not ''do nothing'' for a good part of the middle of the episode
E)The Doctor does not just ''run away'' from whatever he encounters
F)The Doctor does not Duex Ex Doctor a way to win in the last couple minutes

[dps]

This kinda makes me wonder if you even watch Doctor Who? The '' Doctor would go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes'' is just about every episode.

But, ok, can you name say five episodes where:

A)The Doctor does not go to a place at random
B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot
C)The Doctor has arrived, amazingly, right before the evil plot was to be completed
D)The Doctor does not ''do nothing'' for a good part of the middle of the episode
E)The Doctor does not just ''run away'' from whatever he encounters
F)The Doctor does not Duex Ex Doctor a way to win in the last couple minutes


B is a pretty hard one to NOT have in any kind of show, though. You need conflict to have drama, so you need an antagonist, which will normally be a monster or bad guy of some sort. Still, depending on what you consider a I can think of a few, just sticking to NuWho. Usually, though, there's something that seems like a monster, but turns out not to actually be monstrous or evil.

[Darth Ultron]

B is a pretty hard one to NOT have in any kind of show, though. You need conflict to have drama, so you need an antagonist, which will normally be a monster or bad guy of some sort. Still, depending on what you consider a I can think of a few, just sticking to NuWho. Usually, though, there's something that seems like a monster, but turns out not to actually be monstrous or evil.

The Doctor very regularly runs into Bad Guys that are just Bad as they are Bad. It's why I list it as a common thing the Doctor encounters. And I'm not saying there are not episodes where there is no ''bad guy'', as there are some.....but they are rare and not common. You can sure not say a ''large'' number of episodes have no bad guy.

And Doctor Who is one of the few shows where you will see the complex ''just as something does not look exactly like a human does not mean it's not a person''. Sometimes. The rest of the time the Doctor just straight up murders, obliterates or commits genocide on anything non human.

[dps]

The Doctor very regularly runs into Bad Guys that are just Bad as they are Bad. It's why I list it as a common thing the Doctor encounters. And I'm not saying there are not episodes where there is no ''bad guy'', as there are some.....but they are rare and not common. You can sure not say a ''large'' number of episodes have no bad guy.

I'm not exactly sure what that first sentence there means. At any rate, I never said that there were "large" numbers of episodes with no bad guys, just that I can think of a few even just sticking to NuWho. My larger (and perhaps poorly articulated) point, though, was that having a villain of some sort is pretty much a standard part of story-telling, so it is hardly fair to criticize episodes of Doctor Who for having villains.


And Doctor Who is one of the few shows where you will see the complex ''just as something does not look exactly like a human does not mean it's not a person''. Sometimes. The rest of the time the Doctor just straight up murders, obliterates or commits genocide on anything non human.

Occasionally, he'll kill humans, too. Just ask Solomon the Trader--oh, wait, you can't, cause the Doctor blew him up. (At least, I assume he was human--he looked human, and I don't think there was anything in the episode suggesting that he wasn't).

[comicshorse]

This kinda makes me wonder if you even watch Doctor Who? The '' Doctor would go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes'' is just about every episode.

But, ok, can you name say five episodes where:

A)The Doctor does not go to a place at random
B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot
C)The Doctor has arrived, amazingly, right before the evil plot was to be completed
D)The Doctor does not ''do nothing'' for a good part of the middle of the episode
E)The Doctor does not just ''run away'' from whatever he encounters
F)The Doctor does not Duex Ex Doctor a way to win in the last couple minutes

A) The Ribos Operation, The Pirate Planet, The Stones of Blood, The Androids of Tara, The Power of Kroll, The Armageddon Factor otherwise known as Season 17
Also picked because it is the consequence of this season that lead the Doctor to install the randomizer in the Tardis that would send it to places at ...random
It's not a bug it's a feature
( I could also include all the Pertwee episodes where he can't leave earth or the majority of NuWho)

B) As has been pointed out you need conflict to make a drama, you might as well ask for a episode of Starsky and Hutch where they don't encounter a criminal

C) Father's Day, The Empty Child, Blink, The Face of Evil, The Sun Makers, The Masque of Mandagora (off the top of my head)

D) Absolutely only applies to NuWho ( if at all) so just take all the episodes I mentioned so far

E) If they've got guns (or weird powers) and you haven't running away ensures not dying. But : End of the World, Boom Town, The Long Game, Black Orchid, Curse of Peladon

F) This very much depends on your definition of 'Deus Ex'. The Doctor usually gathers information/acts enabling him to come to a conclusion as to what to do at the end. This is not a Deus Ex



And Doctor Who is one of the few shows where you will see the complex ''just as something does not look exactly like a human does not mean it's not a person''. Sometimes. The rest of the time the Doctor just straight up murders, obliterates or commits genocide on anything non human.

While this very occasionally happens to describe it as 'the rest of the time' is a massive exageration

[Cikomyr]

I suppose we could add The Ennemy of the World to C. He shows up while the Evil Plan is well underway, and no critical junction planned.


...i liked Nine. Ecclestone made him have momentum in his energy, where Ten is manic for manic's sake.

When Nine was agitated, it was for goddamn heavy reason. He was judgemental, but he also left room for people to redeem themselves.

...i miss Nine.. :(

[DJ Yung Crunk]

This kinda makes me wonder if you even watch Doctor Who? The '' Doctor would go somewhere, encounter the evil alien or whatever, do nothing and waste tons of time and run away, then save the day in the last couple minutes'' is just about every episode.

But, ok, can you name say five episodes where:

A)The Doctor does not go to a place at random
B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot
C)The Doctor has arrived, amazingly, right before the evil plot was to be completed
D)The Doctor does not ''do nothing'' for a good part of the middle of the episode
E)The Doctor does not just ''run away'' from whatever he encounters
F)The Doctor does not Duex Ex Doctor a way to win in the last couple minutes

Wow, you've got a pretty ****ty attitude. Yes, I've watched Doctor Who. The same could apply to you. It's disappointingly easy to contradict you here.

A) Castrovalva, The Mind Robber, Arc of Infinity, The Ultimate Foe, The Deadly Assassin, Genesis of the Daleks, The Edge of Destruction, all of season 16, Logopolis, The Curse of Fenric, every Third Doctor episode, The Twin Dilemma. Not sure why this is a negative trait. Feels like clocking Star Trek for taking place in space.
B) Really, give me a chance. Yes. I will concede this one. Doctor Who does, indeed, use conflict as the main thrust of it's plot. You have me dead to rights. Now, name a Simpsons episode that doesn't have any jokes.
C) Marco Polo, Castrovalva, Kinda, Snakedance, Edge of Destruction, every Third Doctor serial, all of season 16, all of season 23, The Curse of Fenric, The Aztecs, Enemy of the World, Underworld, Mawdryn Undead, The Invasion of Time, Blink, Listen, Paradise Towers, Planet of Giants, The Ark, Enlightenment, Vengeance on Varos, The Sun Makers, The Happiness Patrol, The Dalek Invasion of Earth, Frontios, The Reign of Terror
D) This is vaguely defined. I can only guess what definition you're running with, but it'd be easier for me to list the ones that actually do have him do nothing for great stretches of episode. For my recollection I can think of Turn Left, Blink and Revelation of the Daleks. In all three cases his absence from the plot is something of a major appeal.
E) Ah yes. The objectionable little storytelling cliche of self preservation. It's so unrealistic, isn't it? Anyway... The Seeds of Death, Pyramids of Mars, Attack of the Cybermen, Invasion of Time, The Caves of Androzani, The Face of Evil, Marco Polo, Kinda, Snakedance, The Mind Robber, Genesis of the Daleks, Meglos, The Time Monster, The Curse of Fenric
F) The Curse of Fenric, Marco Polo, Castrovalva, Enlightenment, Doctor Who and the Silurians, Warriors of the Deep, The Ark In Space, The Talons of Weng Chiang, Black Orchid, The War Games, The Aztecs, Underworld, Genesis of the Daleks, Revelation of the Daleks, Enlightenment.

Just off the top of my head, mind.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore. You're too biased to be properly informed and it does nobody any good to have a conversation with the wilfully uninformed. You're entitled to your opinion, but try not to pass it off as fact in the future, okay?

[Aedilred]

Now, name a Simpsons episode that doesn't have any jokes.

Bart to the Future :smallwink: Although, to be fair, I don't think that was by design.

[Eldan]

Let's see. Mainly going by Audios, as that's mosto f what I know:

A) A lot of seventh Doctor stories seem to have a plot along the lines of:
Companion: Where are we, Doctor?
Doctor: Oh, we'll seeeeee.... *mysterious*
Companion: Oh no, bad things are going down!
Doctor: All according to plan.

Occasionally, the doctor is also invited somewhere. Oh, and the Fifth Doctor would visit historical cricket matches.

B) Not sure if that's your question, but there's some stories that are more about politics than about good and evil. Historicals are good for that. Say, Son of the Dragon, about Vlad Dracul. Or The Council of Nikea, about Emperor Constantine.
Or there's natural disasters to be avoided. Again, no evil. Pompeii. Not in the NuWho story The Fires of Pompeii. The other time they went there. Forgot the title. Also, too many crashing space ships to count.
Or the whole thing is a mistake, where aliens are assumed to be evil, but it's a misunderstanding.

C) Plenty. Well anwered above

D) Define "do nothing". Chatting to people to get to know the situation counts as "something" to me.

E) Seriously? Hm. Okay, just my phone playlist of the last ten things I listened to. Robophobia. The Curse of Davros. The Doomday Quatrain. House of Blue Fire. The Emerald Tiger.

F) I can't really think of much Deus Exing much, really. Deus Ex means a new supernatural (or almost supernatural) thing comes in that was never previously mentioned. THe Doctor usually investigates and then uses a weakness of the bad guy, or builds up to a solution.

[digiman619]

...i liked Nine. Ecclestone made him have momentum in his energy, where Ten is manic for manic's sake.

When Nine was agitated, it was for goddamn heavy reason. He was judgemental, but he also left room for people to redeem themselves.

...i miss Nine.. :(

I agree. Of NuWho, 9 was my favorite. Matt Smith's 11 was interesting, character wise, but by then the show was going in directions that peeved me off.

[Reddish Mage]

I wonder how many episodes Darth Ultron can cite that actually fulfills his conditions.

[dps]

F) I can't really think of much Deus Exing much, really. Deus Ex means a new supernatural (or almost supernatural) thing comes in that was never previously mentioned. THe Doctor usually investigates and then uses a weakness of the bad guy, or builds up to a solution.

In all fairness, though, while the sonic screwdriver might not technically be a Deus Ex (it certainly gets mentioned a lot), the way it's used to solve the problem of the week often is. The worst example would probably be "The Power of Three", but it's hardly the only one.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm not exactly sure what that first sentence there means. At any rate, I never said that there were "large" numbers of episodes with no bad guys, just that I can think of a few even just sticking to NuWho. My larger (and perhaps poorly articulated) point, though, was that having a villain of some sort is pretty much a standard part of story-telling, so it is hardly fair to criticize episodes of Doctor Who for having villains.

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.

And there are otherways to tell a story without a Bad Guy...



I wonder how many episodes Darth Ultron can cite that actually fulfills his conditions.

Well, other then some of the ones they mentioned....well, every single other episode. And saying ''every single third doctor one'' is a bit silly.

And there is a lot of vagueness of ''doing nothing'' and ''running away'', for example. The Doctor spends a lot of the middle of most episodes doing things like ''having tea'' and not ''trying to save/help people and/or oppose the big bad whatever''. But I guess if people what to be ''that way'', it can be said that ''drinking tea'' is doing something.




F) I can't really think of much Deus Exing much, really. Deus Ex means a new supernatural (or almost supernatural) thing comes in that was never previously mentioned. THe Doctor usually investigates and then uses a weakness of the bad guy, or builds up to a solution.

So how about ''looking into the heart of the TARDIS and becoming god''?

[Aedilred]

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.

...


Well, other then some of the ones they mentioned....well, every single other episode. And saying ''every single third doctor one'' is a bit silly.

I don't have a stake in this discussion one way or another, but this approach to and line of argument is so borderline-insultingly terrible that I'm finding myself disagreeing with you just on general principle.

Your initial assertion was that no more than five episodes met the criteria. Many more than five examples have been given. Meanwhile you have yet to name one, but are dismissing all of those mentioned as somehow irrelevant because "the vast majority" still support your case. I mean, technically, you've backed yourself into a position where even one further counterexample on top of those already mentioned would explode your case completely, but firstly I have no doubt you'd still try to claim it didn't count and secondly I feel enough evidence has already been provided that you should at least be bearing some of the burden from this point onwards.

[rooster707]

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.


B is a pretty hard one to NOT have in any kind of show, though. You need conflict to have drama, so you need an antagonist, which will normally be a monster or bad guy of some sort. Still, depending on what you consider a I can think of a few, just sticking to NuWho. Usually, though, there's something that seems like a monster, but turns out not to actually be monstrous or evil.

:confused:

[comicshorse]

Well, other then some of the ones they mentioned....well, every single other episode.


This is (as others pointed out) still not actually producing any examples. Nor have you any in any way produced any argument as to which of the 'one's mentioned' in any way fit your argument or indeed why any episode fits your argument let alone the majority


So how about ''looking into the heart of the TARDIS and becoming god''?

Congratulations you came up with an example. Of course one out of literally hundreds of episodes hardly matches you're assertion that these occur in the 'vast majority' of the stories

[dps]

So when you said ''a large number of episodes'' you meant ''a few''....ok.


No, when I said "a few" I meant "a few". I never said anything about "a large number of episodes". See rooster707's post in which he quotes me.

[Cikomyr]

So how about ''looking into the heart of the TARDIS and becoming god''?

The Heart of the TARDIS was already established to have godlike powers in a previous episode. So its not "deus ex machina". Doesn't mean you have to like it.

[ChrissP]

Very interesting! Thanks so much

[turkishproverb]

B)The Doctor does not encounter an evil alien/monster/bad guy with an evil plot


B) Really, give me a chance. Yes. I will concede this one. Doctor Who does, indeed, use conflict as the main thrust of it's plot. You have me dead to rights. Now, name a Simpsons episode that doesn't have any jokes.



B) Not sure if that's your question, but there's some stories that are more about politics than about good and evil. Historicals are good for that. Say, Son of the Dragon, about Vlad Dracul. Or The Council of Nikea, about Emperor Constantine.
Or there's natural disasters to be avoided. Again, no evil. Pompeii. Not in the NuWho story The Fires of Pompeii. The other time they went there. Forgot the title. Also, too many crashing space ships to count.
Or the whole thing is a mistake, where aliens are assumed to be evil, but it's a misunderstanding.

Paul Cornell's Autumn meets the bill. No villains, not even really politics. Sure there are more, but I just recently experienced that one again. He and Mike Maddox's Summer probably fits too.

So does The Marian Conspiracy which makes the historical "Bloody Mary" a thought out sympathetic character who doesn't quite fit the evil or even "villain" role well.

Mary's Story by Jonathan Morris doesn't have a big villain, it has a damaged person, but he's depicted more as needing help than a villain.

Urgent Calls (https://soundcloud.com/big-finish/doctor-who-urgent-calls?in=big-finish/sets/complete-free-big-finish) is about people, really, and the only antagonist to appear is more offhanded reference than a prime villain. There is a disease, mind, of a sort. Heck, that one is free.

[Reddish Mage]

The Heart of the TARDIS was already established to have godlike powers in a previous episode. So its not "deus ex machina". Doesn't mean you have to like it.

Eh, it's still Deus Ex if there's no build up to it occurring.


lots of people call everything Deus Ex or anything they don't like or understand. Others think nothing is Deus Ex but it is very clear that Deus Ex refers to a plot device that comes out of left field to resolve the episode. If there's a natural segue, a build up, a hint here and there "how can she make a soufflé without any eggs!" It's not really "out of nowhere."

However a god-device utilized in one episode as a one-off isn't really fair game all the dang time. So I call some of the episodes where the TARDIS comes out of nowhere and saves the day Deus Ex, especially when the tardis suddenly acquires new abilities (remote control anyone? How about mind of its own?) that are curiously absent in later episodes it would be really useful.

So yes. The TARDIS is a pretty darn common Deus Ex and I think it's more blatantly a Deus Ex in that "left field out of nowhere last minute" way than the sonic screwdriver.

[Wardog]

I've recently started getting into Doctor Who, but I can't stop thinking that he's kinda sanctimonious, and a hypocrite. The tenth doctor in particular seems douchy in Journey's End when he demonized his clone for killing off the Daleks. Dur to the fact that, unless they stopped them, the Daleks would destroy ALL OF EXISTENCE! Furthermore, even though it was reconned away, the Doctor has no moral leg to stand on, as, to stop the Time War, HE COMMITTED DOUBLE GENOCIDE!

And on a smaller scale, killing the Racnoss's offspring when the Racnoss herself wouldn't make peace.


I get that they're going for the "war is hell" Aesop, but they do it to such an extreme that it stops being "War is Hell" and ends up being "Soldiers are Evil"!

Ten himself often seems to be implying that, but I think the show itself is much more supporting of soldiering. Consider for example The Poison Sky, when UNIT finally work out how to fight the Soltarans, the Doctor tries to persuade them not to, and they ignore him, and it is glorious. (See this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5byddvkl_4), then this one from 1:40 (https://youtu.be/WneyWA-1HPY?t=100)).