[3.5] Hypothetical: No "casters" - who rules the world?

[Thurbane]

OK, so say supposing that for some reason, arcane spells, divine spells and SLAs or infusions that mimic these all stop working. Warlock and DFA SLAs that don't mimic spells (i.e. invocations) also are blocked.

Who becomes the big dog on the block in terms of dominant class(es)?

Binders? Incarnum wielders? Martial Adepts?

Cheers - T

[LTwerewolf]

Well since binders can be t2 and you banned all the other t1 and t2's...

[Ruethgar]

Scientists, because they can cast every spell in the game, even if at a high cost.

[inuyasha]

Barbarians of course! With D12 hit dice, large numbers, and the ability to power attack while wielding a weapon the size of a person, they would cut through swathes of people to make it to the top.
Just as long as they don't have to read anything...

[ShaneMRoth]

I vote for Rogues...

Not on the battlefield, but they will run everything. Every guild, every town, every business interest. In this setting, Thieves' Guilds would likely rule the world. In secret.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Psionicists, duh.

If you exclude them as well, then I'm gonna go with meldshapers. They have a wide variety of powers that they can swap out pretty readily. A binder can't match an incarnate or a totemist in the variety of things they can do outside of binding zceryll which your prohibitions in the OP exclude. The martial adepts don't deserve to be T3 and they certainly can't match the meldshapers in versatility even if they can dole out more damage. Truenamer...... just..... no. Shadowcasters may or may not function at all, given the OP restrictions. All that leaves is the more static non-casters.

So, yeah. Meldshapers FTW.

[avr]

I'd think of it this way: how can they deal with problems which ordinary steel can't handle?

Ordinary healing: meldshapers iffy, binders good from 8th level, crusaders are actually good at this but other martial adepts need to spend feats for the privilege.

Poison & other lasting nastyness: meldshapers iffy, binders have some ability but only from 8th, martial adepts can have some ability to resist but none to heal it until very late on.

Going to and surviving in difficult environments: meldshapers have some ability, binders just no, martial adepts have a very little ability, mostly late.

Incorporeal creatures: some meldshapers can handle, binders mostly can't until very late on, desert wind swordsages can handle them but other martial adepts can't.

You could look at other facets but to me that says that meldshapers will be the kings. Still, even kings need their troops and advisors.

[unseenmage]

Diplomancers. Even without magic hitting static Diplomacy DCs is easy peasy.

[Deophaun]

Ordinary healing: meldshapers iffy, binders good from 8th level, crusaders are actually good at this but other martial adepts need to spend feats for the privilege.
I just got a funny notion of a society where Crusaders are the primary healers.

"Sorry, we'd love to tend to your wounds, but we just executed our last murderer yesterday."

[Necroticplague]

I just got a funny notion of a society where Crusaders are the primary healers.

"Sorry, we'd love to tend to your wounds, but we just executed our last murderer yesterday."

Martial Spirit doesn't have the caveat preventing you from just beating up sections of ground for HP.

[Deophaun]

Martial Spirit doesn't have the caveat preventing you from just beating up sections of ground for HP.
"Help me! I've been shot through with an arrow!"
"Quick! To the mines with him!"

[Eloel]

Masters of Many Forms. Wild Shape is just too much for anyone else to handle.

An interesting question would be what would happen if world was AMF? (and initiates of mystra didn't exist) What if our real life world IS in an AMF?

[Inevitability]

Becoming a binder is apparently quite easy, you can dabble in binding even if you're another class, and the abilities it gives you are versatile and occasionally game-breaking. On top of that, their main adversaries (divine casters) are now all gone.

I can totally imagine a world run by binders where vestiges are worshipped as gods.

[KillingAScarab]

The greatest trick the sorcerer-kings ever pulled was convincing the world magic couldn't work except through them.

Then everyone on Athas (http://www.athas.org/) and their bug-dog developed intense mental discipline. Psionics win the day.

[Jormengand]

If you only banned SLAs that mimic spells, as well as warlock and DFA ones that don't, then truenamers would be the main source of healing, itemancy, and occasionally shooting people through walls. Plus, because rocket tag is mainly limited to uberchargers (who can't hit the namer without some kind of flight because the namer can fly too) and the namer's DoT game is pretty on point (seriously, dropping 40d6*1.5 damage on people from about level 7 - though annoyingly you probably want to get Seek the Sky on that level, so maybe 8 - is crazy) they're not even that bad in combat, especially because they can greater seek the sky on themselves and reversed seek the sky on the enemy and then fly off into the night. Also the fact that you can spam +15 to any knowledge check (and you also get a load of other random knowledge bonuses) or +5 to any other skill check means that you can substitute for a diviner or a skillmonkey (oh, and one of your recitations buffs all of the rogue skills, and craft, through the roof, which is actually surprisingly neat) in a pinch.

Basically, truenamers would take on the roles of crappy clerics and rogues, mediocre blasters and actually all-right damage dealers. Annoying that you can't get Conjunctive Gate, but Thwart the Traveller is actually a super-neat utterance anyway (it basically dimensionally, physically, and everythingelseically locks a location) and anyway we didn't really care what you were doing at 20th level.

Of course, martial adepts and meldshapers would probably rule the show, but I reckon that some truenamers would come in handy.

[Telonius]

Changeling Warshapers, maybe?

[Waazraath]

I second binder. A high level binder:
- has quite some intel gathering capacity: the scouting bird at will from malphas; knowledge[any including any local] with Dantallion, when not blocked (but not sure because of the OP) all knowledge rolls with a +4 reroll if needed with The Triad (call to mind), otherwise reroll with optional prestige class Scion of Dantallion, and bardic knowledge (the triad); read thoughts (dantallion)
- the ability to craft items, with astaroth (unclear what exactly can be crafted by RAW, but even if it's only a +5 weapon and armor, it's more then most others will have in a world without arcane and divine spells & spellcasters).
- superior mobility: with etherealness at will from chopuclops; can't take move, standard or full round actions, but can take 5 ft steps; pounce with chopuclops; sever vestiges offer dimension door effects (dantallion, savnok, tenebrous)
- a big fat initiative bonus with pact augmentation
- gain any skill with Naberius, craft poisons with astaroth, using them with malphas

I imagine a high level binder sitting in his or her fortress, spending months getting intel on what's going on, crafting items, and making money by healing people, curing poisons and diseases... and when coming out being fully prepared and ready to ubercharge any threat to pieces.

Lets take a lvl 15 sample build, using only binder and binder prestige classes.
Race: human
Classes: binder 8, Scion of Dantallion 2, Knight of the Sacred Seal (chupoclops) 5
Feats: Power attack (1), improved binding (H), weapon focus (3), ignore special requirements (4B) improved bullrush (6) shock trooper (9) leap attack (12), (any) 15
BaB: 12
Soulbinding 15:

Vestiges bound when gathering intel: malphas, triad, dantallion
Vestiges bound when going out: chopuclops, dantallion, [any depending on what's needed]

when combat begins: make full attack, full power attack, leap attack, etc; fat damage with shock trooper / power attack / leap attack / 2handed weapon; swift action awe of dantallion (any creature that sees you is unable to attack or target you with a hostile spell). If a situation is critical, you can always go ethereal, wait 5 rounds to create some distance and recharge Awe of Dantallion. If not, just repeat full attack, or use the abilities vestige no3 offer.

Some flexiblity is left (one vestige is not decided yet) to get what's needed in a specific situation; healing with Buer, specific anti undead abilities with Kas or Acererak, blindsight & displacement at will, an energy immunity.... the free feat can also be used for customization, if nothing else, improved initiative will give a +10 on initiative rolls (together the pact augmentation), without any dex or items (if there are items).



Though the power and utility of a variant wildshape ranger 5 / master of many forms 10 shouldn't be underestimated either: very, very powerful, especially with feats that let you turn in a dragon or abberation. But that goes for other shapechange classes as well, initiate of the draconic mysteries can shapechange into a dragon 1/day, which is a strong ability in a world without full casters, as are lycantropes (but those are not a race). Still, MoMF is more powerful, and flexible, then those.

A setting like this is also a great boost for the paladin. It still has acces to a special mount (using ACF that can be really strong, or fly), can switch spellcasting for bonus feats, and has turn undead to fuel devotion feats (that can give extra move actions, or the ability to fly, or serious bonusses to AC and/or attack and/or damage). The pally can also heal with Lay on hands, and remove diseases (though that might not work, given the parameters of the OP).

I don't see the meldshapers ruling the world, to be honest. Soulborn is a very weak paladin, that only has a few very specific builds that work combat wise. They aren't flexible and hardly have utility. Totemist is great fun, has some utility in for example flying and pounce-like stuff, but nothing game breaking: mostly it does a lot of damage. And to be honest, the uber damage totemist builds that have 11 or more natural attacks are very iffy by RAW (since most soulmelds explicitly state how many attacks you can make with 'em on a full attack, while in those builds it is assumed they work like normal natural weapons, but specific trumps general and all that). That leaves the incarnate, and though they are masters of skills, and can get some fun abilities and enormous amounts of hp, I don't see them the equals in power or versatility compared with binders or MoMF. But I can be convinced otherwise, I have less experience with them in my games then with binders, MoMF's and paladins, so might miss things.

[Ruethgar]

An interesting question would be what would happen if world was AMF? (and initiates of mystra didn't exist) What if our real life world IS in an AMF?
Chosen of Mystra could still exist and fix that. Also, many rituals are presumed magical but never stated as such and would RAWfully work in AMFs.

But seriously, Scientists can do everything a Wizard or Cleric can do better than everyone else in a land without casters plus their actual class abilities which allow them to pick a field for a small selection of Ex spells.

Lucid Dreamers or PunPun would probably rule, but both of those are ridiculous abuses of game intention and should be discounted in serious discussion.

Athesian Bards would help immensely by being able to perform alchemy, but it is not versetile enough to make them ruler worthy, more of the cheap man's alternative to science as a source of low op healing, blasting, and utility on a mundane. They would be out classed by Binders and Meldshapers, but provide a great societal boon at lower cost than the world altering Scientists.

[atemu1234]

I'm gonna go for Initiators; Crusaders would team up with Paladins and function as churches in place of clerics; Warblades would lead armies of fighters and warriors. Heck, even Swordsages could run thieves' guilds, along with rogues and ninjas.

[Fizban]

Aside from the gaping omission of psionics, one might be able to weasel Shadowcaster in there. It does not cast arcane spells: it casts mysteries, which are sometimes cast as though they are arcane spells, later as spell like and supernatural abilities but always remaining mysteries. Shadowcasters have an extremely limited list, but it's still got some heft to it. But let's assume you meant to axe them and the psionics as well.

Truenamer has a point with some of the most direct abilities remaining. Binders and meldshapers are quite lacking in many ways on their supernatural output. Whoever "rules" will be those who come up with the best combination of the remaining abilities and magic items. Prestige classes can become quite important as a much more common source of arbitrary Sp and Su abilities. Master of Many Forms has been mentioned, and Druids as a whole still retain their full wild shape and animal companion abilities in personal combat.

Of note is that archers just got significantly more important. A well buffed archer is already far more efficient at killing than instantaneous spells, but without longer range magic eclipsing it the superiority of simply having a ranged attack will be all the more obvious. Without battlefield crushing magic, basic tactics return to the fore. A lot of things you'd usually want to kill with magic will need to be kited through archers instead.

[unseenmage]

Remember folks that Psionics are treated as SLAs so they weren't ommitted, just not called out by name.

[A_S]

But seriously, Scientists can do everything a Wizard or Cleric can do better than everyone else in a land without casters plus their actual class abilities which allow them to pick a field for a small selection of Ex spells.
What are you talking about here? Do you mean Artificers? There isn't a 3.5 Scientist class.

[Gildedragon]

What are you talking about here? Do you mean Artificers? There isn't a 3.5 Scientist class.
I think there is one; from ravenloft can make devices that replicate spells as EX effects

[Jormengand]

Remember folks that Psionics are treated as SLAs so they weren't ommitted, just not called out by name.

Well for a start...


arcane spells, divine spells and SLAs or infusions that mimic these all stop working. Warlock and DFA SLAs that don't mimic spells (i.e. invocations) also are blocked.

So only a very few, like Psionic Dimension Door, would be blocked out. Second, Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#psionics) and Psionic Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm) are two different things, unhelpfully.

[illyahr]

Aside from the gaping omission of psionics, one might be able to weasel Shadowcaster in there. It does not cast arcane spells: it casts mysteries, which are sometimes cast as though they are arcane spells, later as spell like and supernatural abilities but always remaining mysteries. Shadowcasters have an extremely limited list, but it's still got some heft to it. But let's assume you meant to axe them and the psionics as well.

Unfortunately, shadowcasting actually calls itself out on this point. Sure, they are called mysteries, but they function as spells at low levels, spell-like abilities at medium levels, and supernatural abilities at high levels. You would need to be at least 14th level before you could use even your basic mysteries and even then most of them replicate spells so I don't know if they violate the stipulations the OP put in.


Truenamer has a point with some of the most direct abilities remaining. Binders and meldshapers are quite lacking in many ways on their supernatural output. Whoever "rules" will be those who come up with the best combination of the remaining abilities and magic items. Prestige classes can become quite important as a much more common source of arbitrary Sp and Su abilities. Master of Many Forms has been mentioned, and Druids as a whole still retain their full wild shape and animal companion abilities in personal combat.

Of note is that archers just got significantly more important. A well buffed archer is already far more efficient at killing than instantaneous spells, but without longer range magic eclipsing it the superiority of simply having a ranged attack will be all the more obvious. Without battlefield crushing magic, basic tactics return to the fore. A lot of things you'd usually want to kill with magic will need to be kited through archers instead.

Agree with you on the rest of this. I'm thinking that the game goes to high-level martials with meldshaper or binder support. Even a Binder8/Soulborn12 will wreck most opponents, and the soulborn class is poorly designed.

[johnbragg]

OK, so say supposing that for some reason, arcane spells, divine spells and SLAs or infusions that mimic these all stop working. Warlock and DFA SLAs that don't mimic spells (i.e. invocations) also are blocked.

Who becomes the big dog on the block in terms of dominant class(es)?

Binders? Incarnum wielders? Martial Adepts?

Cheers - T

Ahh, binders and incarnum wielders and blade-wizards and shapeshifters are explicitly allowed.

So my contention that Bard and Expert diplomancers with maxxed out bluff, diplomacy, knowledge (local), and perform (blarney) would rule the world from garishly appointed golden towers is inoperative.

[unseenmage]

Well for a start...



So only a very few, like Psionic Dimension Door, would be blocked out. Second, Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#psionics) and Psionic Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm) are two different things, unhelpfully.

Well you got me there.
In any case I still stand by my earlier answer. Diplomacy rules the world regardless. That's what it's there for.

Heck even in a world where wizards are allowed Diplomacy is the only thing standing between the rulers and layered PAO doom.

[A_S]

I think there is one; from ravenloft can make devices that replicate spells as EX effects
Got a source for it? It's not in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which I believe is the only 3.5 Ravenloft book that's even sorta-kinda first party. A bit of Google-fu turned up a reference to a PrC from Legacy of the Blood, which appears to be a third party 3.0 book. Is that the one?

I was assuming Thurbane was asking about first party content.

[Jormengand]

Well you got me there.
In any case I still stand by my earlier answer. Diplomacy rules the world regardless. That's what it's there for.

Heck even in a world where wizards are allowed Diplomacy is the only thing standing between the rulers and layered PAO doom.

Actually, the answer is "Player characters", who are immune to diplomacy. :smalltongue:

[Gildedragon]

Got a source for it? It's not in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which I believe is the only 3.5 Ravenloft book that's even sorta-kinda first party. A bit of Google-fu turned up a reference to a PrC from Legacy of the Blood, which appears to be a third party 3.0 book. Is that the one?

I was assuming Thurbane was asking about first party content.

Sounds about right. And I was just hazarding a guess as to what was the scientist class mentioned; Ex spells would rule a magicless world.

[unseenmage]

Actually, the answer is "Player characters", who are immune to diplomacy. :smalltongue:

Heh.
I'd agree except I'm not sure I've ever had a group of PCs who were a part of their world. They always somehow wind up above and beyond it somehow.
(Usually via Diplomacy appropriately.)

[Jormengand]

Heh.
I'd agree except I'm not sure I've ever had a group of PCs who were a part of their world. They always somehow wind up above and beyond it somehow.
(Usually via Diplomacy appropriately.)

Well, I have. :smalltongue:

TBH, a bunch of truenamers going around spamming Reversed Singular Mind (or universal aptitude+diplomacy) is not the group of PCs we need or deserve. :smalltongue:

[Ruethgar]

Got a source for it? It's not in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which I believe is the only 3.5 Ravenloft book that's even sorta-kinda first party. A bit of Google-fu turned up a reference to a PrC from Legacy of the Blood, which appears to be a third party 3.0 book. Is that the one?

I was assuming Thurbane was asking about first party content.

Legacy of the Blood is an Officially Licensed WotC product, not third party.

[A_S]

Legacy of the Blood is an Officially Licensed WotC product, not third party.
Really? Amazon says (http://www.amazon.com/Ravenloft-Legacy-Blood-Steve-Miller/dp/1588460894) it was published by Arthaus (unlike EtCR (http://www.amazon.com/Expedition-Ravenloft-Dungeons-Roleplaying-Supplement/dp/078693946X/), which was published by WotC), and it doesn't have the D&D logo on the cover.

[Necromancy]

I second rogues/assassins, they just murder people in their sleep if they're a problem

[Coidzor]

An interesting question would be what would happen if world was AMF? (and initiates of mystra didn't exist) What if our real life world IS in an AMF?

I believe we're more of a null/dead magic zone with a few places where it's just severely restricted, IIRC.


Chosen of Mystra could still exist and fix that. Also, many rituals are presumed magical but never stated as such and would RAWfully work in AMFs.

Which is just kooky in crystal spheres where Mystra isn't a thing.


But seriously, Scientists can do everything a Wizard or Cleric can do better than everyone else in a land without casters plus their actual class abilities which allow them to pick a field for a small selection of Ex spells.

Athesian Bards would help immensely by being able to perform alchemy, but it is not versetile enough to make them ruler worthy, more of the cheap man's alternative to science as a source of low op healing, blasting, and utility on a mundane. They would be out classed by Binders and Meldshapers, but provide a great societal boon at lower cost than the world altering Scientists.

Is Scientist actually a class or grouping of classes in the d20 version of Ravenloft or something? :smallconfused:

What's this about Athesian(Athasian?) alchemy and low op healing?


Well you got me there.
In any case I still stand by my earlier answer. Diplomacy rules the world regardless. That's what it's there for.

Heck even in a world where wizards are allowed Diplomacy is the only thing standing between the rulers and layered PAO doom.

See: Oglaf. Warning: Do not see the rest of Oglaf unless you want extremely NSFW content. (http://oglaf.com/moonshine/)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The casters who can Invoke Magic to cast their spells even when they shouldn't be working. :smalltongue:

[Waazraath]

I second rogues/assassins, they just murder people in their sleep if they're a problem

Why? Assasins lose their spell list, which leaves them with some sub par class features and a little bit of sneak attack. And a rogue, in a world without casters & hardly any items, loses it strongest skill, UMD. I won't get any utility from its class list (no fly, no invisibility, no shape changing, no healing, etc.). An incarnate will have higher skill modifiers, the ability to change those skills, and a lot of utility as well.

Note:
my assuption is that, in a world without casters, there will be hardly magic items available. If there are though, UMD and rogue gets a bit stronger.
Assumption 2: psionics is out as well, else there is no contest.

[unseenmage]

...

See: Oglaf. Warning: Do not see the rest of Oglaf unless you want extremely NSFW content. (http://oglaf.com/moonshine/)

Am familiar with oglaf.
Cha checks done right. Bard in an ongoing campaign adds mood music via fiddle to NPC dialogue.
He also occasionally disco es.
Is hilarious.

[Necromancy]

Why? Assasins lose their spell list, which leaves them with some sub par class features and a little bit of sneak attack. And a rogue, in a world without casters & hardly any items, loses it strongest skill, UMD. I won't get any utility from its class list (no fly, no invisibility, no shape changing, no healing, etc.). An incarnate will have higher skill modifiers, the ability to change those skills, and a lot of utility as well.

Note:
my assuption is that, in a world without casters, there will be hardly magic items available. If there are though, UMD and rogue gets a bit stronger.
Assumption 2: psionics is out as well, else there is no contest.

Because in a world without magic, he who has the least scruples will always win. From a RP perspective the rogues guild is only kept in check by the commoner town guard. They don't need to win theoretical duels. They just shadow you and kill you When you're unprepared.

[Waazraath]

Because in a world without magic, he who has the least scruples will always win. From a RP perspective the rogues guild is only kept in check by the commoner town guard. They don't need to win theoretical duels. They just shadow you and kill you When you're unprepared.

I still don't get it. This has little to do with classes, like 'rogue', or 'assassin', but with the fluff around them (unscrupulous). The 'crunch' of that is more in the alignment system, and if I understand you well, the claim is 'evil rules the world'. But if that's the case, why don't rule evil wizards the world in a world with casters? And I think one could claim just as easily that 'good' classes rule the world, cause good people are in the majority (though this would be either a long philosophical discussion, or totally up to the DM); or that the lawful aligned classes would rule, cause law is better organized.

And in this view, aren't 'rogue' and 'assasin' more roles then classes? Any , totemist, swordsage or binder could be an unscrupulous hit man, shadowing and killing unprepared folk, right?

[LTwerewolf]

I still don't get it. This has little to do with classes, like 'rogue', or 'assassin', but with the fluff around them (unscrupulous). The 'crunch' of that is more in the alignment system, and if I understand you well, the claim is 'evil rules the world'. But if that's the case, why don't rule evil wizards the world in a world with casters? And I think one could claim just as easily that 'good' classes rule the world, cause good people are in the majority (though this would be either a long philosophical discussion, or totally up to the DM); or that the lawful aligned classes would rule, cause law is better organized.

And in this view, aren't 'rogue' and 'assasin' more roles then classes? Any , totemist, swordsage or binder could be an unscrupulous hit man, shadowing and killing unprepared folk, right?

I find it common that people are unable to separate mechanics from the fluff they offer. The person you quoted seems to be an example of this.

[Necroticplague]

Facototums could do the deal even better. Some not-horrifically-creative use of lucid dreaming, you can kill people while both of your are asleep without ever having to leave your own bed! Because you'll find the amount of people who prepare for their dreams killing them without magic is very low.

[Inevitability]

Facototums could do the deal even better. Some not-horrifically-creative use of lucid dreaming, you can kill people while both of your are asleep without ever having to leave your own bed! Because you'll find the amount of people who prepare for their dreams killing them without magic is very low.

Wouldn't Human Paragons (or *gasp* experts) be just as good at this?

Of course, I'm assuming anyone ever takes levels in HP, but still...

[Gildedragon]

Wouldn't Human Paragons (or *gasp* experts) be just as good at this?

Of course, I'm assuming anyone ever takes levels in HP, but still...

Level to Skill Check is not an insignificant bonus, probably reserved for the grappling into the Dreamheart (the highest DC check), though it still leaves you with a DC20 check to get out. One could take 20 on it, provided one has a means of preventing the 5 points of every type of damage damage the Dreamheart does every turn