Building an Anti-Mage Mage.

[13ones]

Morning you tired bunch of Giants~!

So I'll cut right to the quick of things. I've got a game coming up that will see me at max level rolling around with some serious threats, a lot of which will be casters of some flavour [either custom-built NPC casters or high level creatures with casting thrown on them]. I've been tapped to bring the magical hurt for this particular party and while I know some of the best ways to build an Evoker, Necromancer, or Illusionist I'm rather at a loss for what I'd need to do to shut down something's casting while also being able to support the rest of my party.

I was looking at a Drow Arcanist as my base, as they have naturally occurring SR built into them and Arcanist Exploits look to be the best way to really support and build towards making other magic users cry. Probably taking the Blood Arcanist archetype to grab the Arcane bloodline to pick up all those lovely Bloodline powers and that Arcana that are better than some exploits.

So what do you folks think? Am I going in the right direction?

[Yes, I'm aware that a Superstitious Barbarian, A Tetior Monk, or a high level archery build are all great options to deal with casters. We need Arcane in the party and thats what I intend to bring]

[Florian]

Arcanist is a good base, but Blood doesn´t help here all too much. Consider School Savant for Void, keep Drow, especially Noble, aim for dipping into Arcane Archer to use AMF more aggressively.

[avr]

I'd go for Divination/Foresight, via School Savant. Why? Well, you really need to go first against the enemy caster at high levels, and the free die roll of the Prescience power will help beat SR or win dispel checks. Probably all levels in arcanist so that you get the level 20 effect and win initiative absolutely.

Selective Spell will help wrap your spells around the enemy without hindering your side too much.

Against many enemies, blocking vision will stop their spells. e.g. Scouring Winds; it's not darkness or illusion so true seeing & see in darkness won't stop it working. Or simpler fog spells, quickened.

Also; Empowered Spell Turning.

[Oroul]

Morning you tired bunch of Giants~!

So I'll cut right to the quick of things. I've got a game coming up that will see me at max level rolling around with some serious threats, a lot of which will be casters of some flavour [either custom-built NPC casters or high level creatures with casting thrown on them]. I've been tapped to bring the magical hurt for this particular party and while I know some of the best ways to build an Evoker, Necromancer, or Illusionist I'm rather at a loss for what I'd need to do to shut down something's casting while also being able to support the rest of my party.

I was looking at a Drow Arcanist as my base, as they have naturally occurring SR built into them and Arcanist Exploits look to be the best way to really support and build towards making other magic users cry. Probably taking the Blood Arcanist archetype to grab the Arcane bloodline to pick up all those lovely Bloodline powers and that Arcana that are better than some exploits.

So what do you folks think? Am I going in the right direction?

[Yes, I'm aware that a Superstitious Barbarian, A Tetior Monk, or a high level archery build are all great options to deal with casters. We need Arcane in the party and thats what I intend to bring]

Oooooh... a challenge. Scouring the books and brb.

[DrMartin]

Does it have to be a mage, or are psionics on the table? something quite effective at high levels (15+) is using a psicrystal's channel power ability to use your petrock, conveniently sitting in the barbarians pockets, as the source of a null psionic field (assuming psionic-magic transparency is in place)

[Oroul]

I've got a game coming up that will see me at max level rolling around with some serious threats, a lot of which will be casters of some flavour [either custom-built NPC casters or high level creatures with casting thrown on them].

Race: As for race, I would really hesitate to take one that doesn't have intelligence as a bonus stat. The spell resistance, high-level, can be mimicked easily enough, since at level 20, it'll be 26. A good OLD elf would be of better service. Make him Fleet-Footed (+2 to initiative, free Run fear, not proficient in elven weaponry) and a silent hunter, and surprise should be on your side.

Class: Wizard, divination school. Assuming max level, your first level ability means:
* You can always act in the surprise round.
* You get half level on initiative checks (+10)
* Anytime you roll initiative the result is 20.

If you get Improved Initiative (+4 feat), Warrior of Old (+2 trait), Fleet-Footed (+2 racial), and a dexterity modifier (minimum 2), that means that when the opposing spellcaster rolls initiative, you simply announce "40!". And if he throws in a surprise element, it simply doesn't work.

Stats: Int / Wis / Dex / Cha / Con / Str. Dont be shy to bolster some of them afterward with a belt of perfection, especially since age can give -6 to all physical stats and +3 to all mental stats. Considering how 15 to 18 (+3) is worth 10 points and 14 to 8 (-6) is worth 7, there's definitely good incentives to make good use of it. You can basically bring all your physical stats back to 8's and 10's with a belt, and age stacks with headbands.

Abilities: Once you've taken the Diviner's path, there's not much choice. I would go with a bonded object as it works as a maximum level Pearl of Power and your hp might be a tad low to risk having a familiar around. Plus, its ability to deliver touch spells requires it to be in contact with you, "scrying" is your middle name, and you are immune to surprise.

Feats:
*Improved Initiative
*Item Creation feats, especially consumables (as it doesn't give a discount on items purchased at creation)
*Silent Spell
*Still Spell
*Quicken Spell
*Skill Focus Spellcraft
*Spell Penetration
*Spell Focus (Abjuration, Divination)
*Greater Spell Focus

Also, keep in mind the average 9th level spell takes a Spellcraft DC 24 to identify, so a 20th level wizard may not need Skill Focus: Spellcraft. Depends on how you spend those skill points. There should be no shortage however. Don't be shy to spend some on Linguistic and peruse every book you know for every available language.

Spells
There's the obvious here: Dispel Magic can be readied to counterspell succeeding roughly half of the time, Greater Dispel Magic works at a +4 bonus, Magic Circles actually prevent summoned creatures from attacking, Nondetection works wonders, Break Enchantment can save you when you're in a pickle, Freedom of Movement makes immune to grapple and many control spell effects that can remain bothers even late game. Be careful with Mage's Disjunction's and Antimagic Field's collateral damage.

With the later, any spell that does a permanent effect or that are specified unaffected becomes gold. If you cast one of them then use a Rod of Quicken, you can trap an enemy caster in a prismatic sphere with you and a melee type and unable to cast anything to get out. Alternatively, Wall of W/E spells are creation spells that will remain with the angry barbarian, the enemy caster and an antimagic sphere.

Otherwise, spells that really get rid of a spellcaster (Feeblemind, Disintegrate), that buys you time (Time Stop, Mirror image, anything that create walls, illusions) are your best friends. So is anything that cuts line-of-sight. Also, look at abjuration spells, like banish.

Items
Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken. At least 1. For 170 000 gp, you can cast ANY spell before you ready an action. Also take lesser versions. Throwing in a fireball once a while while you ready a Greater Dispel Magic will work wonders. You spend 14 000 for 3 fireballs (or scorching ray, or w/e, I don't judge you) per day.

Pearls of Power. Allows you to choose many spell, then cast one or a few of them repeatedly.

Belt of Physical Perfection / Mental Superiority. If there's a Paladin / Bard or other Charisma-heavy character, you can afford not to max out Charisma, save 54 000 gp and pass Charisma. The belt compensate for being so old.

Ioun Stones:
Broken Dusty Prism : Hey, another initiative bonus guys!
Orange Prism: Caster level 21 = better dispel checks.
Clear Spindle: Put in Wayfinder and immune to mind control. It's very cheap, you might buy some for your friends, or followers if you took Leadership.
Lavender and Green Ellipsoid: Absorbs spells.

Rings:
Ring of counterspells might be a little underwhelming. If you end up with a free ring slot on you or a friend, it works wonders. And cost almost nothing.
Ring of Spellstoring is useless. 200 000gp for 10 levels of spell. Pearl of powers recall ANY level 9th spell once per day for 40 500 gp.

Robes of the Archmagi:
I don't like 'em, but they free your shoulders for a cloak other than Of Resistance. The spell Resist is subpar, the AC bonus not relevant but it does help your spell penetration, and +4 to all saves (instead of the ubercloak at +5) is not that bad.

Tomes:
Clear Thought for sure. Manual of Quickness of action should also be contemplated.

Bag of holding:
You are, after all, an old elf. Muleback cords might also be a good idea. Efficient Quiver is stated as able to hold staves and wands.

Staff of Abjuration: No need to prepare Dispel Magic ahead of time, plus having access to Shield might cover one of your weaknesses: A lot of low level casters spread and casting magic missiles.

Scrolls: Make them in game. Class ability. Quick to do.

Weapons: IF there's any money left, I would consider +1 Spell Storing daggers. Place buffs in them (Haste, Gaseous Form, Invisibility, Heroism, Nondetection, Reduce Person, Spider Climb, Protection of Evil are all valid choices, faster to cast on a spellstoring weapon than to brew and reusable. Plus it doesn't require a feat), and give them around. Ranger deals itself 1d4 damage, gets hasted. It's not perfect, but you won't always be around, up and running, and works wonders in the fluff of the Diviner.

And you can always just place a Shocking Grasp, or try something with your aberrant save DCs.

You'll know when you'll need it.


What do you think?

[Oroul]

Sooo... Assuming 20 point buy, lvl 20, 880 000 gp.

Venerable Elf Diviner 20

STR: 8 [8 - 6 (age) + 6 (belt)]
DEX: 16 [14 + 2 (elf) - 6 (age) + 6 (belt)]
CON: 8 [10 - 2 (elf) - 6 (age) + 6 (belt)]
INT: 38 [18 + 2 (elf) + 3 (age) + 5 (levels) + 6 (Headband) + 4 (Tome)]
WIS: 21 [12 + 3 (age) + 6 (Headband)]
CHA: 11 [8 + 3 (age)]

Save DCs (Not including School Focus & Greater School Focus)
10 + Spell Level + 14 (25 up to 33, 27 up to 35 if Abj or Div)

Spells per day
4 / 8+1 / 8+1 / 7+1 / 7+1 / 7+1 / 7+1 / 6+1 / 6+1 / 6+1

SpD: Counting Pearls of Power
4 / 13+1 / 12+1 / 10+1 / 9+1 / 8+1 / 8+1 / 7+1 / 7+1 / 7+1

Initiative
Always 40 [20 (Auto Die Roll) + 10 (Class Bonus) + 3 (Dex) + 4 (Feat) + 2 (Trait) + 1 (Prism)]

Saves
Fort: +20 [10 (base) + 6 (class) - 1 (Con Mod) + 5 (cloak)]
Ref: +24 [10 (base) + 6 (class) + 3 (Dex Mod) + 5 (cloak)]
Will: +34 [10 (base) + 12 (class) + 5 (Wis Mod) + 5 (cloak) + 2 (feat)]

AC
Ahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha!

Hp
20d6-20, so about 50.

Divination School
Forewarned: Act in the surprise round. +10 to initiative. Initiative roll is always a 20.
Diviner's Fortune: Touch > +10 to a lot of non-spellcasting rolls for 1 round.
Scrying Adept: Permanent Detect Scrying, Everyone is 1 step more familiar to me for scrying purposes.

Talents
Warrior of Old (+2 Initiative Bonus)
Magical Lineage (Choose one spell, when applying metamagic to that spell, it increases by 1 less spell level)

1st level feat: Improved Initiative
Bonus feat: Scribe Scroll
3rd level feat: Iron Will
5th level feat: Spell Focus (Abj)
Bonus feat 1: Still Spell
7th level feat: Spell Focus (Div)
9th level feat: Spell Penetration
Bonus feat 2: Silent Spell
11th level feat: Greater Iron Will
13th level feat: Greater Spell Focus (Abj)
15th level feat: Greater Spell Focus (Div)
Bonus feat 3: Quicken Spell
17th level feat: Greater Spell Penetration
19th level feat: Widen Spell
20th level feat: Toughness (heh, it's good, gotta cram it up somewhere)

Budget:
+6 Belt of Phys Prowess (144 000 gp)
+6 Headband of Mental Prowess +6 (90 000 gp) Stealth, Disable Device, Sleigh of Hand
Metamagic Rod (Quicken), 1x lesser, 1x normal, 1x greater (140 250 gp)
Tome of Clear Thought +4 (110 000 gp)
2 Rings of Counterspell (8000 gp) Spellcaster services: Destruction. The other should have Feeblemind
Ioun Stone (Orange Prism) (30 000 gp)
Ioun Stone (Lavender and Green Elipsoid) (40 000 gp)
Staff of Abjuration (82 000 gp)
Pearl of Power level 9 x1 (40 500 gp)
Pearl of Power level 8 x1 (32 000 gp)
Pearl of Power level 7 x1 (24 500 gp)
Pearl of Power level 6 x1 (18 000 gp)
Pearl of Power level 5 x1 (12 500 gp)
Pearl of Power level 4 x2 (16 000 gp)
Pearl of Power level 3 x3 (13 500 gp)
Pearl of Power level 2 x4 (8000 gp)
Pearl of Power level 1 x5 (5000 gp)
Handy Haversack (2000 gp)
Ioun Stone (Broken Dusty Prism) (500 gp)
3x +1 dagger of spellstoring (24 000 gp) Give Melee Guy: Heroism Give Archer/Caster: Haste Keep: Gaseous Form (Because what foe would expect that?)
Cloak of Resitance +5 (25 000 gp)

(Still need to choose spell and prohibited schools)

[13ones]

Thats actually incredibly in depth and gives me quite a base to work off of! As I usually play a heavy save or suck style [Arcane Necromancers are my bread and butter] I often forget that Dispelling and counterspelling are a viable tactic!

Thanks for refreshing my memory!

Huge help there!

[Max Caysey]

What about the Halruaan Magehound? On a wizard base. Celerity, timestop, forcecage and maw of chaos. That should take care of any mage!

[13ones]

As much as it would pain me, I honestly think Illusion [:smallfrown: ] and Necromancy [ :frown: ] would be the easiest schools to throw on a prohibited list. Conjuration is too useful, Enchantment has the ever powerful Feeblemind, Evocation has some of the best damage and control options, Transmutation is the BIGGEST selection of spells in the game and Abjuration and Divination go without saying.

Necromancy is usually a caster's worst nightmare, guess it is for the functionality of this build as well. :(

[Florian]

I often forget that Dispelling and counterspelling are a viable tactic!

Not really. It´s only good if you manage to pull it off as an Immediate Action instead of preparing it as a ready action, else you´re forced to react instead of acting.
That´s what you can do with a School Savant (Divination) Arcanist and the Counterspell exploit.

[Jormengand]

If you're allowed 3.5 content, Improved Counterspell/Heighten Spell/Easy Metamagic Heighten/Practical Metamagic Heighten/Rapid Metamagic is my standard sorcerer build for counterspells. Make sure you have a cantrip or 1st of each school and you can counter any spell with a spell slot one lower; proceed to spend other spells known on whatever you like. If you're using some cheaty way of getting a lot of feats, you can get arcane thesis on all your cantrips (or at least the ones from common schools) and extra +0 metamagics.

[Oroul]

Not really. It´s only good if you manage to pull it off as an Immediate Action instead of preparing it as a ready action, else you´re forced to react instead of acting.
That´s what you can do with a School Savant (Divination) Arcanist and the Counterspell exploit.

Up to a point. The huuuuge problem with counterspelling is that it'll always take a standard action and your opponent may very well simply not cast. This is the case with monsters whose spellcasting abilities are not their sole source of hurt (E.G. Balor). It is also the case with groups of foes, as an enemy caster may choose not to cast while it's allies try to flank you.

You then simply waste an action, but you technically prevented a spell from being cast that turn anyways. And a foe that dies with unused spell slots is a good thing.

This is also why I have included 3 metamagic rods of quicken. This way, you can either combo spells to completely screw an enemy caster (E.G. Wall of Stone as a dome + Widened Antimagic Sphere + Angry Barbarian) or cast an offensive spell and ready a counterspell anyways. If you decide to make your character of a regular age, feel free to grab a second set of Metamagic Rod of Quicken instead of the belt.

[Snowbluff]

Up to a point. The huuuuge problem with counterspelling is that it'll always take a standard action and your opponent may very well simply not cast. This is the case with monsters whose spellcasting abilities are not their sole source of hurt (E.G. Balor). It is also the case with groups of foes, as an enemy caster may choose not to cast while it's allies try to flank you.


Yeah, Pathfinder wizards are a bit ****. It also sucks that option like Divine Counterspell aren't available.

To make up for it. Take Sacred Geometry: Quicken, combine with Magical Lineage (any spell, doesn't matter) Trait and Heighten Spell. That'll bootstrap your highest level of casting available, so you can quicken dispel magic or any other spell of 5th level or lower.

So, now you can cast your quickened spell, and then hold your action for a counterspell. Or, you can quicken a dispel to undo what they've been doing, and use your standard for a winning stroke. I'd take Persistent Spell for your second Sacred Geometry MM, since it makes it a lot harder to save against your magic.

[Oroul]

Yeah, Pathfinder wizards are a bit ****. It also sucks that option like Divine Counterspell aren't available.

To make up for it. Take Sacred Geometry: Quicken, combine with Magical Lineage (any spell, doesn't matter) Trait and Heighten Spell. That'll bootstrap your highest level of casting available, so you can quicken dispel magic or any other spell of 5th level or lower.

So, now you can cast your quickened spell, and then hold your action for a counterspell. Or, you can quicken a dispel to undo what they've been doing, and use your standard for a winning stroke. I'd take Persistent Spell for your second Sacred Geometry MM, since it makes it a lot harder to save against your magic.

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Occult Mysteries is a bit too obscure for my taste. Furthermore, have you seen the length of the explanation / the required minigame? Agreed, this should be more than easy for a wizard level 20 to combine whatever he wants, but damn.

Nothing a Rod of Quicken won't allow to do better, except for the fact it cannot be disenchanted. I wouldn't use it, but it seems a valid option. At least for Quicken.

[Snowbluff]

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Occult Mysteries is a bit too obscure for my taste. Furthermore, have you seen the length of the explanation / the required minigame? Agreed, this should be more than easy for a wizard level 20 to combine whatever he wants, but damn.
Sacred Geometry is actually very easy to parse out if you know what you are doing. I was running in a game for Curse of the Crimson throne from level 3 to level 15.

Easy steps.
1) Roll
2) Add up some dice into 10
3) Add/subtract some others into a number for the nearest 10 of the require result.
4) Add/subtract the remainder to get the result.

It's a simple gross adjustment then fine adjustment. Like a microscope. Another tip to remember is that you can multiply by 1 to keep a number, or by 0 to eliminate one.

My DM was more interested in that I showed my math, since he felt the minigame's effort justified it. if it take too long, ask your DM if you can ready your rolls before your turn, as long as you declare your action.


Nothing a Rod of Quicken won't allow to do better, except for the fact it cannot be disenchanted. I wouldn't use it, but it seems a valid option. At least for Quicken.

Personally, I don't like to build around items, even though I usually get magic mart in my game. I'm more of class/feat builder. :3

[FocusWolf413]

At high levels, you really want to go first. If you hit them with a disjunction, then a quickened many much damage spell, that's all you need. People say that damage is a sucker's game, but at high levels, when you can negate protections, it's one of the most effective ones out there.

See if you can build a mailman type wizard.

[13ones]

So any other suggestions to banned schools? Or are necromancy and illusion just the most sensible options?