Breaking Vow of Poverty

[Pippin]

Is it irreversible? Is there a way for me to get my Vow of Poverty back after, say, doing an Evil act?

[Tiri]

If it's an Evil act, you can always atone. If it's a result of breaking the vow itself, no.

[Pippin]

If it's a result of breaking the vow itself, no.
Oh okay. May I ask how we know that this stuff is so inflexible though?

[ayvango]

Are you sure that vow of poverty prevents you from being evil? I had read the wording and found no requirement for alignment. You can be CE still employ vow of poverty.

[Necroticplague]

Oh okay. May I ask how we know that this stuff is so inflexible though?

Because it doesn't say you can ever re-gain the benefits. Compare it all the different vows, which allow you to atone if you fail to live up to them. VoP not having such a line means it does not have such ability.



Are you sure that vow of poverty prevents you from being evil? I had read the wording and found no requirement for alignment. You can be CE still employ vow of poverty.
It's an exalted feat. All exalted feats go away if you commit an evil act.

[MisterKaws]

Are you sure that vow of poverty prevents you from being evil? I had read the wording and found no requirement for alignment. You can be CE still employ vow of poverty.

Exalted Feat.

[Pippin]

Because it doesn't say you can ever re-gain the benefits. Compare it all the different vows, which allow you to atone if you fail to live up to them. VoP not having such a line means it does not have such ability.
I see, thanks. VoP really is incredible. The more you study it, the more disappointed you get.

[atemu1234]

I see, thanks. VoP really is incredible. The more you study it, the more disappointed you get.

Most of the Exalted Vow feats are pretty lame that way. Plus, if you lose them in any meaningful way, you've wasted a feat slot (though I usually allow DCFSing them away after-the-fact).

[Willie the Duck]

I see, thanks. VoP really is incredible. The more you study it, the more disappointed you get.

Most of the entire Book of Exalted Deeds is pretty sketchy on the "would-this-really-work-in-game-btb" metric. On the other hand, it's not significantly worse than paladin vows (3e or previous as well). Both of them really require a tacit (or explicit) agreement between DM and Players that's roughly, "okay, we've read the book, now here's how we're going to implement it in this game." Otherwise I foresee much arguing.

[atemu1234]

Most of the entire Book of Exalted Deeds is pretty sketchy on the "would-this-really-work-in-game-btb" metric. On the other hand, it's not significantly worse than paladin vows (3e or previous as well). Both of them really require a tacit (or explicit) agreement between DM and Players that's roughly, "okay, we've read the book, now here's how we're going to implement it in this game." Otherwise I foresee much arguing.

Yeah, the book is not any good unless everyone agrees to play essentially Exalted characters.

[Telonius]

Are you sure that vow of poverty prevents you from being evil? I had read the wording and found no requirement for alignment. You can be CE still employ vow of poverty.

Completely houseruled, but I do allow Evil characters to take it. The original idea for the vow was thought up by a Falxugon. The mortal was offered all sorts of "benefits" that left them worse off than before they took the vow, and in return Asmodeus got the mortal's soul and all of their money. (The Falxugon was rapidly promoted).

[Inevitability]

You can theoretically Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle VoP out when you're about to do something that will require using items. As long as you are CG, it should work out alignment-wise.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Necroticplague
Because it doesn't say you can ever re-gain the benefits. Compare it [to] all the different vows, which allow you to atone if you fail to live up to them. VoP not having such a line means it does not have such ability.

In fact, VoP has a line clarifying that once broken, the vow can never be regained:


"If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it." (BoED, p. 48.)

However, it's worth noting that all the vows have the same text, covering situations in which the violation is intentional. The atonement option is only available for the other vows if there's magical compulsion involved. That's the real difference between VoP and the other vows--VoP has no safety net for magical compulsion.

[Necroticplague]

However, it's worth noting that all the vows have the same text, covering situations in which the violation is intentional. The atonement option is only available for the other vows if there's magical compulsion involved. That's the real difference between VoP and the other vows--VoP has no safety net for magical compulsion.

Still leaves a grey area between "intentional" and "magically compelled", oddly enough. What if one with a Vow of Chasity is raped? Sure as heck aint intentional, but it isn't magically compelled either.

[Hamste]

I see, thanks. VoP really is incredible. The more you study it, the more disappointed you get.

You haven't felt true disappointment until you have studied pathfinder VoP...they somehow made it worse.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Necroticplague
What if one with a Vow of Chasity is raped? Sure as heck aint intentional, but it isn't magically compelled either.

Agreed, that occurred to me while rereading the text. Definitely a lacuna there.

Personally I wouldn't throw that at an Exalted character, but "hope the DM takes the high road" isn't always a proven philosophy for game design.


Originally Posted by Hamste
...pathfinder VoP...they somehow made it worse.

O gawd so true.

Not sure why, although I'm guessing that most game designers haven't really looked into asceticism.

[Pippin]

You can theoretically Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle VoP out when you're about to do something that will require using items. As long as you are CG, it should work out alignment-wise.
You've raised an interesting point, but then someone will chime in with Abyssal considerations and stuff. It's not clear whether or not you break your vow with DCFS.

[ATHATH]

Question: Can you kick a puppy (losing your Exalted feats), use an item or two, then receive an Atonement to get VoP back?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Question: Can you kick a puppy (losing your Exalted feats), use an item or two, then receive an Atonement to get VoP back?

Nope. You can't attone for an act over which you don't have any remorse. If you kick a puppy to lose your exalted status so you can get around your vow, you're not getting your exalted status back and probably didn't deserve it in the first place.

[ATHATH]

Nope. You can't attone for an act over which you don't have any remorse. If you kick a puppy to lose your exalted status so you can get around your vow, you're not getting your exalted status back and probably didn't deserve it in the first place.
Ah. Can your friend Dominate you (without your consent) to do those things?

[AvatarVecna]

You can theoretically Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle VoP out when you're about to do something that will require using items. As long as you are CG, it should work out alignment-wise.

You've raised an interesting point, but then someone will chime in with Abyssal considerations and stuff. It's not clear whether or not you break your vow with DCFS.

Here is what's always been my general take-away on DCSing Exalted feats: firstly, while the spells involved are not technically evil, the spells are granting your character demonic power (which is basically a universally evil ability, with this being one of the sole mechanical exceptions); while this using these spells is not an evil act, and I would never impact a character's alignment just for using them (the manner they use them in could warrant it, but the use itself is not evil), the fact is that Exalted Good is a higher standard of Good, and is more easily broken, so using DCS makes you no longer Exalted...although I would say you can atone, if you were truly guilt-ridden by the act.

The second part is a bit more specific: I think that DCSing away your Vow of Poverty benefits should (and does) take away every other Vow of Poverty benefit, on account of you breaking your oath. DCSing away a Vow of Chastity, for instance, is not really an Exalted act, but giving up that benefit for a bit of power does not break the point of the vow, so I might allow you to take Vow of Chastity again later, as long as your maintained your chastity and atoned properly. But "Vow of Poverty"? The point of VoP is that you have embraced the concept if charity, that you are willing to give up great power for the sake of embracing charity and voluntary poverty; the benefits granted to you by the Vow Of Poverty are a divine gift, which was given to you because of how strongly devoted you are to rejecting the very concept of greed from your body...

...and now you're using spells to sell away your divine gifts for power? BULL ****. Intentionally DCSing your own Vow Of Poverty bonus feats is selling a divine gift away for power; even if you were selling it away for a different form of divine power (which you're not), you'd still be betraying the spirit of the oath. While the letter of the rule in the physical rulebook doesn't say so, that's likely more that the designers weren't taking DCS into consideration when making VoP (or vice versa, depending on which came out first). Your "Vow Of Poverty" is an agreement you make with the universe's morally sound Powers That Be to uphold the principles of charity, to embody the principle of personal sacrifice, and to reject the concept of greed; selling away a VoP bonus feat, to me, breaks the oath, and permanently loses you all the benefits; you'll get to keep the one feat you DCS'd, and that's it.

Yes, this is RAI, but that's what happens when an already vague alignment is made even more vague, only to base mechanical benefits on the super-vague concept of Exalted Good.




Question: Can you kick a puppy (losing your Exalted feats), use an item or two, then receive an Atonement to get VoP back?

Nope. You can't attone for an act over which you don't have any remorse. If you kick a puppy to lose your exalted status so you can get around your vow, you're not getting your exalted status back and probably didn't deserve it in the first place.

Ah. Can your friend Dominate you (without your consent) to do those things?

Things done to you without your consent (in regards to your vows) still breaks them, but allows for atonement. That said, if a party member forcibly dominated me into breaking my vows (and particularly to make me sell my VoP benefits for power through demon magic), he better keep that dominate up for a loooooooooong time, because he just DCS'd away the only things that were gonna keep me from throttling him.

[Pippin]

Here is what's always been my general take-away on DCSing Exalted feats: firstly, while the spells involved are not technically evil, the spells are granting your character demonic power (which is basically a universally evil ability, with this being one of the sole mechanical exceptions); while this using these spells is not an evil act, and I would never impact a character's alignment just for using them (the manner they use them in could warrant it, but the use itself is not evil), the fact is that Exalted Good is a higher standard of Good, and is more easily broken, so using DCS makes you no longer Exalted...although I would say you can atone, if you were truly guilt-ridden by the act.

The second part is a bit more specific: I think that DCSing away your Vow of Poverty benefits should (and does) take away every other Vow of Poverty benefit, on account of you breaking your oath. DCSing away a Vow of Chastity, for instance, is not really an Exalted act, but giving up that benefit for a bit of power does not break the point of the vow, so I might allow you to take Vow of Chastity again later, as long as your maintained your chastity and atoned properly. But "Vow of Poverty"? The point of VoP is that you have embraced the concept if charity, that you are willing to give up great power for the sake of embracing charity and voluntary poverty; the benefits granted to you by the Vow Of Poverty are a divine gift, which was given to you because of how strongly devoted you are to rejecting the very concept of greed from your body...

...and now you're using spells to sell away your divine gifts for power? BULL ****. Intentionally DCSing your own Vow Of Poverty bonus feats is selling a divine gift away for power; even if you were selling it away for a different form of divine power (which you're not), you'd still be betraying the spirit of the oath. While the letter of the rule in the physical rulebook doesn't say so, that's likely more that the designers weren't taking DCS into consideration when making VoP (or vice versa, depending on which came out first). Your "Vow Of Poverty" is an agreement you make with the universe's morally sound Powers That Be to uphold the principles of charity, to embody the principle of personal sacrifice, and to reject the concept of greed; selling away a VoP bonus feat, to me, breaks the oath, and permanently loses you all the benefits; you'll get to keep the one feat you DCS'd, and that's it.

Yes, this is RAI, but that's what happens when an already vague alignment is made even more vague, only to base mechanical benefits on the super-vague concept of Exalted Good.
It saddens me to say but I think that this makes sense... Which is such a shame, because I love VoP as it gives so many bonus feats, as well as a freaking continuous True Seeing! (Wow!) In the end I'll be looking for other ways to grab bonus feats, and continuous True Seeing is probably something I'll never get. I'll also end up disappointed because VoP is the only way to get 11 bonus feats over 20 levels, and there's nothing remotely similar.

[MisterKaws]

It saddens me to say but I think that this makes sense... Which is such a shame, because I love VoP as it gives so many bonus feats, as well as a freaking continuous True Seeing! (Wow!) In the end I'll be looking for other ways to grab bonus feats, and continuous True Seeing is probably something I'll never get. I'll also end up disappointed because VoP is the only way to get 11 bonus feats over 20 levels, and there's nothing remotely similar.

Be a Fighter.

[AvatarVecna]

It saddens me to say but I think that this makes sense... Which is such a shame, because I love VoP as it gives so many bonus feats, as well as a freaking continuous True Seeing! (Wow!) In the end I'll be looking for other ways to grab bonus feats, and continuous True Seeing is probably something I'll never get. I'll also end up disappointed because VoP is the only way to get 11 bonus feats over 20 levels, and there's nothing remotely similar.

Vow Of Poverty is pretty powerful on a Druid, and is decent for Sorcerers and Bards; Clerics and Wizards have to jump a couple of hurdles to become super-effective without their equipment/spellbook, respectively, but there's ways around that. Of course, full casters who are OP without items become merely powerful with VoP, while highly competent non-casters get gimped pretty badly by taking it. Believe me, I understand why people want this to be a thing that makes sense, because it would give martials some nice things, but I feel that betrays both the general concept of Exalted Good and the specific concept of Exalted Charity.

Another decent VoP character would be one who goes all the way into Apostle Of Peace and uses some other PrC to advance it's casting; you get tons of Exalted Feats (which you'll actually use), tons of casting (which combines well with your exalted feats), and a small selection of other neat little abilities to throw on the pile. It's not super-optimized, but it's still a decent build.

[AvatarVecna]

Be a Fighter.

Firstly, I think he meant "for so little an investment"; getting 11 bonus feats by spending two feats is a marvelous deal, while getting 11 bonus feats by spending 20 levels is a joke. Speaking of which...

Secondly, taking Fighter to 20 makes the little optimizer in your soul die a little inside.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Secondly, taking Fighter to 20 makes the little optimizer in your soul die a little inside.

Gonna go ahead and disagree here. Fighter 20 is the very essence of constrained optimizing. My class gives me nothing but feats, from a limited list at that, so I -must- make the most of them and leverage my wealth to its fullest. Whets my optimization appetite just thinking about it.

[Pippin]

Be a Fighter.
I'm sorry but I don't know what that is. The only core class that I'm aware of is Wizard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'll also end up disappointed because VoP is the only way to get 11 bonus feats over 20 levels, and there's nothing remotely similar.There are lots of ways to get lots of bonus feats to DCFS out. Cleric domains. Taking feats that grant multiple feats (or at least additional feats) like Planar Touchstone for Catalogues of Enlightenment (War or Metal Domains) or Psicrystal Affinity (for Alertness and lots of HD-based feats you can use feat leech on). Items that grant feats (lots of them abound). Magical locations. Worshiping elder evils. Being an elf for 6 bonus feats or a kobold for 2. Any class with armor and shield proficiencies (see the proficiency feats for details). Etc.

You can literally get hundreds of feats this way. Hundreds.

[AvatarVecna]

Gonna go ahead and disagree here. Fighter 20 is the very essence of constrained optimizing. My class gives me nothing but feats, from a limited list at that, so I -must- make the most of them and leverage my wealth to its fullest. Whets my optimization appetite just thinking about it.

I don't deny that there's interesting combos that can be done with the Fighter, but ultimately the list of options available to them is too limited; sure, they get to choose more aspects of their character than the monk does, but all of the Fighters things amount to "hit person with weapon" and "don't hurt by person trying to hit you with weapon"; forcing a saving throw is rare, affecting an AoE rarer still, and a Fighter 20s out-of-combat utility is about as limited as any other non-casters. The list of bonus feats is wide, sure, but it's not very conceptually deep...whereas with spellcasters...between the ~35000 feats (large lists of which are only available to casters), the ~5000 spells (which are obviously caster only), and the multitude of uses for esoteric skills (a lot of which are either caster-only or are basically useless for non-casters), there's a lot more to discover, to the point that new combos are still being discovered.

There's entire handbooks for pulling together a good ubercharger, or bow fighter, or chair-fu masters, or dual-wielders, or AoO abusers; there's handbooks for just about every fighting style you could possibly imagine, with multiple possible paths to reach the possible ends points...but it's all mapped out. For all the variety, there aren't really any paths left unexplored; the continent of Fighter 20 is mapped out pretty completely...whereas Wizard 20, or Cleric 20, or even Bard 20 or Rogue 20, is a much more unexplored land full of possibilities not yet touched upon by mortal minds.


I'm sorry but I don't know what that is. The only core class that I'm aware of is Wizard.

What, no love for druids? :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't deny that there's interesting combos that can be done with the Fighter, but ultimately the list of options available to them is too limited; sure, they get to choose more aspects of their character than the monk does, but all of the Fighters things amount to "hit person with weapon" and "don't hurt by person trying to hit you with weapon"; forcing a saving throw is rare, affecting an AoE rarer still, and a Fighter 20s out-of-combat utility is about as limited as any other non-casters. The list of bonus feats is wide, sure, but it's not very conceptually deep...whereas with spellcasters...between the ~35000 feats (large lists of which are only available to casters), the ~5000 spells (which are obviously caster only), and the multitude of uses for esoteric skills (a lot of which are either caster-only or are basically useless for non-casters), there's a lot more to discover, to the point that new combos are still being discovered.

There's entire handbooks for pulling together a good ubercharger, or bow fighter, or chair-fu masters, or dual-wielders, or AoO abusers; there's handbooks for just about every fighting style you could possibly imagine, with multiple possible paths to reach the possible ends points...but it's all mapped out. For all the variety, there aren't really any paths left unexplored; the continent of Fighter 20 is mapped out pretty completely...whereas Wizard 20, or Cleric 20, or even Bard 20 or Rogue 20, is a much more unexplored land full of possibilities not yet touched upon by mortal minds.

That's the common wisdom, yes. However, my experience has told me different. When you only go by the handbooks your DM knows what to expect (assuming he's a decent optimizer) and can work around it without any trouble. Throwing around things that are unexpeted and using magic items outside of empowering your "schtick" are largely unexplored. One of the more unfortunate side-effects of ToB is that people stopped exploring the realm of non-caster optimization almost altogether outside of the known, high-op selections you've described.

Honestly, optimizing wealth use outside of mimicing spellcasters is largely unexplored in its own right. How to manufacture things as cheap as possible has been done. Some notable items for the commonly known build structurs has been done. How to boost casting capabilities has been covered. How to turn wealth into options without just UMD'ing wands is woefully under-represented and will likely remain so.

[AvatarVecna]

That's the common wisdom, yes. However, my experience has told me different. When you only go by the handbooks your DM knows what to expect (assuming he's a decent optimizer) and can work around it without any trouble. Throwing around things that are unexpeted and using magic items outside of empowering your "schtick" are largely unexplored. One of the more unfortunate side-effects of ToB is that people stopped exploring the realm of non-caster optimization almost altogether outside of the known, high-op selections you've described.

Honestly, optimizing wealth use outside of mimicing spellcasters is largely unexplored in its own right. How to manufacture things as cheap as possible has been done. Some notable items for the commonly known build structurs has been done. How to boost casting capabilities has been covered. How to turn wealth into options without just UMD'ing wands is woefully under-represented and will likely remain so.

I agree with most of your points, although I'll add the caveat that non-customary item optimization is not exactly limited to non-casters; it's a resource available to casters as well (and due to even simple item crafting, is likely even more abusable by casters than by non-casters, even without delving into infinite money shenanigans). I guess part of the problem is that a lot of non-casters end up needing to use their magic items to enhance their gimmick in order to maintain relevance, and casters enhance their "gimmick" of spellcasting, so things that grant extra abilities not generally directly replicable by spells remain unused...aside from a wide variety of various X Stat To Y Bonus items, but that list is well-known enough that it counts as a handbook-esque thing the competently optimized DM would be aware of.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I agree with most of your points, although I'll add the caveat that non-customary item optimization is not exactly limited to non-casters; it's a resource available to casters as well (and due to even simple item crafting, is likely even more abusable by casters than by non-casters, even without delving into infinite money shenanigans).

You're right, of course, but it's -much- more important for a noncaster to be able to leverage their wealth than it is for a caster. Their class-features just can't make a bunch of items redundant the way spells often can. There are some unique items out there too that even spellcasters find quite useful even though it doesn't directly contribute to their spellcasting.


I guess part of the problem is that a lot of non-casters end up needing to use their magic items to enhance their gimmick in order to maintain relevance, and casters enhance their "gimmick" of spellcasting, so things that grant extra abilities not generally directly replicable by spells remain unused...aside from a wide variety of various X Stat To Y Bonus items, but that list is well-known enough that it counts as a handbook-esque thing the competently optimized DM would be aware of.

That depends largely on the table's optimization level. Keeping up with the baseline numbers isn't too bad if you're frugal and clever and isn't strictlty necessary with an allied buffer and/or clever tactics, some of which are enabled by the very items you got instead of the simple +X items.

An obvious example of what I'm talking about is that flanking and tanglefoot bags give you the equivalent of a few pluses to attack, either dircetly or by lowering the enemy's ac, making the enhancement on your weapon less important. If you're assuming that the character exists in a vaccuum then it's -very- important to keep your numbers as high as possible but thats an erroneous assumption to make since there will -always- be other PC's to rely on, barring the exceptionally rare one-on-one game.