Haley's Long Journey

[SPoD]

The last book ended with strip #301. That means the new book began with the first scene after that, the extended dinner sequence (that so many people complained about). In it, we see Haley at her lowest: depressed, withdrawn, frustrated, ignored by her friends because she can't speak...all because she doesn't have the courage to follow her heart.

Now look at her, when we're obviously close to the end of this book: Confident, taking charge, a strong empowered woman. All because she was able to finally open up and tell the truth about her feelings. The icing on the cake? She said, "I love you," first. For Haley, who we know has fears of being abandoned, that is HUGE. That's the proof that she really has changed. She doesn't know if Elan will say it back, it's only been two days that they've been together. She's risking her heart right there, and she barely hesitates. Wherever her Self-Loathing is, it's gnashing its teeth in annoyance!

The dinner scene was needed so that we could appreciate the change in her now. We needed to see her at her low point before she could pull herself back up. This book has been, more than anything, Haley's path to emotional maturity. She doesn't need to hide behind bluffs (or cryptograms) anymore. She's an adult woman in a meaningful relationship.

(In related news, we got the hint about her tattoo back in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html), and now we're seeing it. Closure-riffic!)

[mockingbyrd7]

Wow, that is some very good insight. While I don't agree that it's the main focus of this story arc, it is a significant part of it and is a huge leap in character development and great writing on Burlew's part.

[SPoD]

Oh, I don't think it's the main plot. But in the comments for Paladin Blues, Rich says that the story there has a running theme of Roy getting over himself and becoming a better leader. He starts out abandoning Elan to the bandits, and ends up getting a sex change to save him and standing against Miko to protect Belkar. I think we're seeing the same sort of arc here, only with Haley.

[Icewalker]

Huh, interesting. Guess you may be right, that seems like a flavorful undertone to put into a book.

Course I don't have any books cept Origins, but I'm probably going to get more.

[Grasilich]

Heh, you're still using a quote of mine as a sig. Nice. :P

Personally, I haven't cared much for the Haley and Elan romance subplot. Too much cheese for my tastes and it just put Haley in the weak position. She was the one that got all bogged down and messed up by her unrequited feelings, not Elan. Elan was fine. No chink in his emotional armour.

I would argue that Haley isn't particularly empowered as a character, for one reason only: If Elan leaves her (not that I'm saying he ever will), she'd be back to square one. A truly strong character shouldn't be so dependant on the guy she's dating. A 'mature woman' should be able to be strong regardless of her relationship status.

I'm glad that Haley isn't an emotional wreck anymore, as those bloody cryptograms were driving me insane, but what I'd like to see Haley doing is becoming a character that doesn't NEED romantic acceptance from a guy to stand on her own two feet. Then she'd be a character that isn't so defined by her gender.

[SPoD]

Personally, I haven't cared much for the Haley and Elan romance subplot. Too much cheese for my tastes and it just put Haley in the weak position. She was the one that got all bogged down and messed up by her unrequited feelings, not Elan. Elan was fine. No chink in his emotional armour.

You and I have very, very different ideas about love. To be truly in love with someone is a strength, not a weakness.

And at any rate, I distinctly remember Elan being reduced to tears in prison at the thought of losing Haley.


I would argue that Haley isn't particularly empowered as a character, for one reason only: If Elan leaves her (not that I'm saying he ever will), she'd be back to square one. A truly strong character shouldn't be so dependant on the guy she's dating. A 'mature woman' should be able to be strong regardless of her relationship status.

She's not strong because of the relationship, she's strong because she's willing to take risks with her emotions. She stopped lying to everyone. She dared and was rewarded. The exact nature of that dare was, yes, romantic. But that doesn't mean that she won't apply the lessons learned to other parts of her life.


I'm glad that Haley isn't an emotional wreck anymore, as those bloody cryptograms were driving me insane, but what I'd like to see Haley doing is becoming a character that doesn't NEED romantic acceptance from a guy to stand on her own two feet. Then she'd be a character that isn't so defined by her gender.

She's only defined by her gender if you assume that love = woman, therefore that any woman with a romance is being defined by her gender. Since almost every man and woman that I know is interested in some sort of interaction with the opposite (or same) gender, it would be strange and alien for her to reject the idea of a romance because it would make her "weak". I don't want to see a character I like deliberately shove away what might be true love because she's afraid of being stereotyped as a girl. Real people don't act like that unless they're covering up their real feelings, which she's stopped doing.

[Grasilich]

You and I have very, very different ideas about love.


I'm certain that we do, but let's not make this personal. I like your posts very much and do not mean to offend you with anything I say.


To be truly in love with someone is a strength, not a weakness.

And at any rate, I distinctly remember Elan being reduced to tears in prison at the thought of losing Haley.

I didn't say 'love is a weakness'. What I said is the way the romance subplot developed made Haley seem weak. Honestly, what do you say to people that fall to pieces over their romantic misgivings? You tell them to get a bloody hold of themselves is what. Elan cried because he thought Haley was going to be murdered by his evil brother. Haley had a protracted emotional breakdown because she didn't think Elan would ever like her. Not the same thing.

And is it true love that they've got? To me it reaks of a high school coupling. Lots of lust, but little else. I mean, they're passing love notes back and forth for crying out loud. Cute? Sure. 'True love'? That's a bit much. Maybe when the relationship matures a bit.


She's only defined by her gender if you assume that love = woman, therefore that any woman with a romance is being defined by her gender. Since almost every man and woman that I know is interested in some sort of interaction with the opposite (or same) gender, it would be strange and alien for her to reject the idea of a romance because it would make her "weak". I don't want to see a character I like deliberately shove away what might be true love because she's afraid of being stereotyped as a girl. Real people don't act like that unless they're covering up their real feelings, which she's stopped doing.

I think you're misunderstanding me here. I didn't say she shouldn't be in a relationship period. What I said is that she shouldn't NEED a relationship in order to function as a human being. Let's not forget: for a good two hundred comics, she couldn't even SPEAK because of her romantic misgivings. Honestly, what does that say about her? There's a difference between being in love and being in a state of emotional dependence. I'm not saying that Haley shouldn't be with Elan, but what I am saying is that being with Elan shouldn't be everything that makes Haley Haley.

There isn't much more to Haley's character other than her relationship right now, which is why I said she's 'defined by gender'. Take away Elan and she can't even use her voice. Maybe when the plot with her father being taken hostage gets developed this will change.

[MoelVermillion]

There isn't much more to Haley's character other than her relationship right now, which is why I said she's 'defined by gender'. Take away Elan and she can't even use her voice. Maybe when the plot with her father being taken hostage gets developed this will change.

While i must agree with you on this point i get the impression that may change very quickly with her being in command and all. We're already seeing a stronger Hayley since the passing of Roy and i think with her in command for a while she'll only develop further.

And to OP: Thats a very interesting view point but i don't think the book is closed on hayley's development yet, i think its only beggining.

[Jaltum]

Let's not forget: for a good two hundred comics, she couldn't even SPEAK because of her romantic misgivings.

--enh? I think you're misremembering. Haley's breakdown was initiated by the loss of a big chunk of her personal fortune; confessing her feelings to Elan was the cure.

Not telling Elan she loved him was only one facet of the big ball of trouble called, "Haley doesn't trust anybody." She literally couldn't explain to anyone why losing her money was such a crushing blow--no one knows about her father's imprisonment.

The Azure City healers tell her that her condition is somehow caused by keeping up too many secrets and deceptions. That she loves Elan is just the one she fixated on as perhaps her biggest--or riskiest, maybe--secret.

[evileeyore]

I didn't say 'love is a weakness'. What I said is the way the romance subplot developed made Haley seem weak.Ehhhh... Personally I saw it as "showcasing her weakness". She obviously was weak before. Unable to trust, constantly lying and swindling even her own "friends" (which is not something you do to your friends) to the point of being prepared to abandon them.

Then her entire world came to an abrupt halt. She could no longer use her most trusted assest, her ability to con people. She was forced throught eh story arc to completely reexamine her motivations and make personality altering decisions.


And is it true love that they've got? To me it reaks of a high school coupling. Lots of lust, but little else. I mean, they're passing love notes back and forth for crying out loud. Cute? Sure. 'True love'? That's a bit much. Maybe when the relationship matures a bit.[/quiote]Only time will tell.

But right now I can definitely see the Wesley-Buttercup thing going on.

[quote]I think you're misunderstanding me here. I didn't say she shouldn't be in a relationship period. What I said is that she shouldn't NEED a relationship in order to function as a human being. Let's not forget: for a good two hundred comics, she couldn't even SPEAK because of her romantic misgivings. Honestly, what does that say about her?It says she got over it.


There isn't much more to Haley's character other than her relationship right now, which is why I said she's 'defined by gender'. Take away Elan and she can't even use her voice. Maybe when the plot with her father being taken hostage gets developed this will change.I think your wrong. I do believe she is now "independent" of her previous burdens. I think she has achieved a level of freedom, from her need to hide and lie, and I do believe the next sideplot will very much involve her father and Elan's.

I am sure it will cause all kinds of crazy stress to this relationship they have. Whom do you choose? Your Blood or your Love? I have a strong feeling the next major charcter development will be Elan and V.

[Morty]

I have a strong feeling the next major charcter development will be Elan and V.

Naah. I agree on Elan, but not V. Elan, Haley and Roy are "serious" character in the strip and they can develop, change etc. But V, Durkon and Belkar will probably(nothing ceratin, though) remain the same, and will have purely comedic purposes. At least that's what I judge from 468 strips so far.

[Tass]

Belkar, true. V, probably. Durkon, not so much.

[Revlid]

I'd personally love to see a bit of development for Belkar. It probably won't happen, as he's been pretty much a one-dimensional self-serving psychopath for more than 450 comics, but it'd be interesting to find out why.

V and Durkon still have lots of room to be developed, though Durkon more so. We have yet to meet V's mate or discover how s/he feels about V wandering off to adventure. Durkon has yet to discover the true reason for his exile, or to learn to put himself over his perceived duty once in a while (driving away Helga, and his reaction to Roy's death, for example).

[Ronsian]

Only Haley's long journey? Did you ever think Elan learned a thing or two? He's not being quite so childish, and I think he learned a thing or two about Haley :smallwink:. I think this has been a very good arc for the both of them, and the next should focus on Durkon, V, or Belkar. The overall arc is revolving around Roy (except now, cause he's all dead and everything).

[Holy_Knight]

I have to add something about Elan's "chinks in armor", too. Notice what happens when he thinks that Haley has been laughing at him the whole time, and secretly hates him. He has spent the majority of his life beiong constantly abandoned by people, never being able to find anyone who really liked him as a person. Now, he finds someone who not only seems to be a genuine friend, he has fallen in love with her--and he discovers (he thinks) that the whole time not only was she just like everyone else who actually didn't like him, she was actively trying to trick him (preying on his subpar intellect) and hurt him emotionally. He's devastated by that idea, and rightly so. Elan's vulnerability might have been more subtle than Haley's, but it was no less severe. I'd venture he was probably even more emotionally fragile than she was, if anything.

[Twilight Jack]

I have to add something about Elan's "chinks in armor", too. Notice what happens when he thinks that Haley has been laughing at him the whole time, and secretly hates him. He has spent the majority of his life beiong constantly abandoned by people, never being able to find anyone who really liked him as a person. Now, he finds someone who not only seems to be a genuine friend, he has fallen in love with her--and he discovers (he thinks) that the whole time not only was she just like everyone else who actually didn't like him, she was actively trying to trick him (preying on his subpar intellect) and hurt him emotionally. He's devastated by that idea, and rightly so. Elan's vulnerability might have been more subtle than Haley's, but it was no less severe. I'd venture he was probably even more emotionally fragile than she was, if anything.

Oooooo, good call! Reading that gave me chills.

It's been subtle, yes, but Elan is not without his own serious issues. He's just simple enough to hide them unwittingly by not thinking about them when they're not at the forefront of what's going on.

[Spiky]

She's only defined by her gender if you assume that love = woman, therefore that any woman with a romance is being defined by her gender.
This is a common misstatement of the stereotype. It should be:
Romance = Woman

And yes, this is an accurate representation of female attitudes towards love. Romance IS defined by gender since it is primarily of interest to women. Men's attitudes and interest in love are different.

[Twilight Jack]

This is a common misstatement of the stereotype. It should be:
Romance = Woman

And yes, this is an accurate representation of female attitudes towards love. Romance IS defined by gender since it is primarily of interest to women. Men's attitudes and interest in love are different.

Wow. That's a hell of a thing to say. Would you care to expand on "female attitudes towards love?" Or perhaps you'd like to tell us about men's attitudes and interest.

I'm resisting the urge to go on a rant here. Let me just say that I think your evaluation is inaccurate.

To return to the meat of this thread, I don't view Haley's love for Elan as a weak device for the sole female member of the party. First of all, Haley is the aggressor in the relationship, which takes her out of the passive role normally given to the female love interest dynamic in most popular mediums. Her "falling to pieces" over her fear of rejection has far more to do with actual and explored abandonment issues than with some stereotypical treacle about women's need for romance. She wasn't waiting idly for Elan to "win" her heart, she actively pursued him, stopping short of any actual confession or unambiguous suit because of her fear of abandonment.

Indeed, in this particular love story, Elan has always remained the passive object of desire, up until the point where he escaped from prison to go find and save her. Even then, his rescue of her required her subsequent rescue of him (Sneak Attack, Bitch!), followed by the assistance of the entire Order to ensure that Elan's "rescue" succeeded.

All of this comes together into a story about a very strong woman having to learn how to open up to other people and risk vulnerability and rejection to achieve what her heart actually wants. Far from marginalizing Haley in a "woman's role," this narrative has put her in the place of the traditionally male hero of such romances. Strong, competent, respected, and alone, she needs to learn to open herself to pain in order to let love in. Most of the time, that's the arc for the guy in a romance. The girl sits around and waits for him to figure out his crap. You know, kind of like Elan's done.