More Resilient Encounters for a Certain Party

[supersonic29]

I'm playing with a level 5 party now that's made up of 3 smashy fighter types and one stp erudite. (decently casual, not optimized) All I've been able to do to make stable encounters for them is to use one big enemy and either drop spell resistance on something high AC/HP/DR or the other way around. What are some lower CR guys I can send for encounters with more participants that won't get one shot by either a solid spell or a single hit landed by one of the other 3 people? Many thanks!

[Bobby Baratheon]

Slap the half golem template on something low level. Even the humble orc becomes rather sturdy with the half golem template, which confers vastly improved strength, construct immunities, nifty DR, natural armor, special abilities of the relevant golem type (ie iron half-golems get poison breath), and golem immunities to magic. Throw five or six level one half golem orcs at them.

[supersonic29]

Slap the half golem template on something low level. Even the humble orc becomes rather sturdy with the half golem template, which confers vastly improved strength, construct immunities, nifty DR, natural armor, special abilities of the relevant golem type (ie iron half-golems get poison breath), and golem immunities to magic. Throw five or six level one half golem orcs at them.

I'm liking what I see of this template, but you really think I won't steamroll these guys with that many at once? They are not even close to optimizing players. Also the revision packet doesn't comment on it, but did 3.5 in general revise LA X/+Y to LA X/- or what? Because I only ever spot that in 3rd books.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Two Allips (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) will give a melee party that's not prepared for them a run for their money.

In a group like this they are highly specialized in a specific type of combat and it's relatively trivial to introduce enemies they are not prepared for. You have already identified their strengths. Now look at their weaknesses. Incorporeal creatures are going to be a pain. Luckily for you they start to show up in groups right around this level. Creatures with DR also start to show and can be challenging to a group. Also remember that it's not a bad thing for the PC's to kick butt and take names. They are the heroes (or anti-heroes/villains) of the story after all. OHKOing the mooks isn't a bad thing. With larger groups of enemies swarming around them their ability to one shot one guy at a time is suddenly a lot less intimidating.

[ATHATH]

Have you tried making enemies using the Two Orcs Method?

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'm liking what I see of this template, but you really think I won't steamroll these guys with that many at once? They are not even close to optimizing players. Also the revision packet doesn't comment on it, but did 3.5 in general revise LA X/+Y to LA X/- or what? Because I only ever spot that in 3rd books.

That's true - I hadn't considered optimization level. Maybe throw two half golem orcs at them, with a gang of fodder orcs?

EDIT: With regard to LA, Half-golems (weirdly) don't have any; they're not intended for player use so there isn't a level adjustment. However, they do have a CR adjustment. I would put a half golem orc as CR 3-4, so a couple of them would be about right. If the pcs steamroll them, you can always use a different base creature or just use more. One irritating foe you can use is a half-golem phase spider. Half golem can be slapped on a magical beast (which a phase spider is), and a single half golem phase spider should be just about right for your party unless they're really, really underpowered.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I'm playing with a level 5 party now that's made up of 3 smashy fighter types and one stp erudite. (decently casual, not optimized) All I've been able to do to make stable encounters for them is to use one big enemy and either drop spell resistance on something high AC/HP/DR or the other way around. What are some lower CR guys I can send for encounters with more participants that won't get one shot by either a solid spell or a single hit landed by one of the other 3 people? Many thanks!

Stop worrying and learn to love the one-shot. No tracking hit points! Just alive or dead!

Now the question is: how much smashy goodness can you pack into your bunch of popcorn bad guys?

Well here's a thought:

ORC BARBARIAN CR 1
Male Orc Barbarian 1
CE Medium Humanoid (orc)
Init +1; Senses Darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +4, Spot +0
Languages Orcish
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 13
(+1 Dex, +3 armor)
hp 14 (1 HD)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +0
Weakness: light sensitivity
Speed 30 ft. in light armor (6 squares), base movement 30 ft.
Melee greataxe +5 (1d12+6 /x3) or battle axe +5 (1d8+6)
Ranged Javalin +2 (1d6+4)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +1; Grp +5
Combat Gear: Potion of cure light wounds
Abilities Str 19, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 6
Feats: Mad Foam Rager
Skills Intimidate +2 , Listen +4 , Survival +4
Possessions combat gear plus Greataxe, battle axe, dagger, studded leather armor, 3 javalins
Rage:
AC 12, touch 9, flat-footed 11
(+1 Dex, +3 armor, -2 rage)
hp 18 (1 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +2
Melee greataxe +7 (1d12+9 /x3) or battle axe +7 (1d8+9)
Ranged Javalin +2(1d6+6)
Base Atk +1; Grp +7

Now 18 hp is pretty good for a CR 1 creature but your guys can probably still one-shot them. On the other hand, mad foam rager lets them ignore that one-shot until after the end of their next turn. So, they still get to make an attack and the PCs don't get cleave or great cleave. At CR 1, you can have 8 of them before you hit EL 7. Make sure to charge and flank with them so that they can land that +7 attack.

But that isn't smashy enough for you? Well what else can we do. If you want a tough fight but one which the PCs should win almost every time, EL 8 is a good target. That gives you a CR 5 or two CR 3s to add. What can you do with that?

A 5th level cleric with the ritual blood bonds feat (give the orcs bonds of brotherhood so that as soon as one drops, the remaining orcs all get a +2 morale bonus to hit the PC who dropped them) is a good start. You could give him the mass Aid and prayer spells. (+1 morale bonus to hit and a +1 luck bonus to hit damage, and saves; average bonus hp on the Mass Aid will also give the orcs another 9-10 hp. At 28 hp, they shouldn't be automatically one-shotted anymore). Give him a bunch of close wounds spells too--let him burn through his immediate actions and keep the barbarians alive a bit longer. If you're feeling mean, forget about the prayer spell and give him a scroll of recitation instead. (The orcs of course all share the same deity as their cleric). Between mass Aid and recitation, your raging barbarians will be hitting a +11 before charge or flank.

If you're willing to try some cheap tactics, you could take an orc wardrummer (bard 3) with the inspirational boost spell and a scroll of mass curse of impending blades and an orc shaman (Clr 3) with a bunch of close wounds spells and scrolls of mass aid (Clvl 10 to get everyone) and recitation. Between the two of them, by round 2, they can have the orcs attacking at +12 and the PCs all at -2 AC before charging or flanking. (Which they should be doing). And with the mass aid scroll, the raging orcs will have about 32 hp each, and the first orc to be hit each round gets a close wounds for another 5 or so hp. And when they would drop, they ignore that hit until the next round when they get to make an attack before dying (assuming the cleric doesn't manage to heal them up). If you're really mean, toss the bard a scroll of haste. By the third round (when he could use it), there won't still be 8 orcs up so not being able to hit every orc with haste is not necessarily a problem.

If you are running pathfinder, you can do something similar, but a lot of the key spells (mass aid, mass curse of impending blades, recitation, inspirational boost, close wounds) and feats (mad foam rager) don't exist, so you have to rely on NPCs being lower CR to let you get more of them and at higher level. Ferocity will let your orcs stay up for one last action after they get one-shotted (unless they're one-shotted all the way to -18). You could either port Mad Foam Rager from 3.5 to let the orcs get two attacks in after being one-shotted (when they're hit, they mad foam rager the hit until after their next turn. At the end of their next turn, they take the damage and stay conscious due to ferocity until the next round when they get a single attack and collapse), or you could decide ferocity is good enough and take weapon focus to help them hit a bit more. Taking bard 5 rather than a bard 3 will let you keep +2/+2 inspiration and will let you use a few pathfinder immediate spells like gallant inspiration when the orcs nearly hit. A cleric can use bless (which stacks with bardsong in pathfinder), and prayer (which also stacks), and can use a scroll for blessings of fervor to imitate haste).

Teamwork feats like Horde Charge, intercept charge, and/or amplified rage could be useful but adding an orc barbarian/cavalier to the mix in order to grant teamwork feats might stretch the theme of the encounter a bit. But if you didn't tell the players he was a cavalier, it could work. (A bunch of orcs with intercept charge would be nasty if several if them intercepted the same charge).

Another possibility would be a group of monks with high strength and Improved Grapple, backed up by a Bard with inspirational boost. A low level half-orc monk can pretty easily end up with a +10 grapple and most smashy fighters get a whole lot less smashy when grappled. For extra cruelty, give the bard a scroll of mass enlarge person which will make the grapple nearly irresistible.

You want a human or hobgoblin version? OK. You can't get the same kind of attack bonuses (at least not in 3.5; pathfinder's floating +2 bonus for strength makes humans potentially competitive) and we won't be using mad foam rager like the orcs. No. Disciplined human or hobgoblin soldiers make solidly tactical use of readied actions with tanglefoot bags and nets and combine them with guisarmes or ranseurs. Ready an action, toss the tanglefoot bag when the PC gets to 10' (15' if the PC uses a reach weapon). If tanglefoot bags are too much money for you to put into the encounter, use nets instead. Touch attacks are easy, even when non-proficient. Entangled gives the PCs -2 to hit and -2 AC. The mass curse of impending blades gives another -2 AC. Recitation is available as a 3rd level spell if you have the glory domain--and it's entirely conceivable for the PCs to be fighting a neutral human with the glory domain. Mass Aid goes on the attack (and hp) either way. Reach gives the humans or hobgoblins an AoO when the PCs close and lets them trip or disarm from outside the PCs' reach. Even 13 strength Warrior 1s (Warrior 1: half the CR means twice the enemies!) with Weapon Focus: Guisarme, can hit a prone, curse of impending bladesed, and entangled PC when under the influence of mass Aid and recitation (effective bonus +15-- +1 BAB, +1 Str, +1 WF, +3 luck (recitation), +1 morale (mass aid), +4 (prone) and -2 AC entangled, -2 AC curse of impending blades). Sure they'll probably go down in one hit (though they could conceivably survive between mass Aid and close wounds), but you have a bunch of them. And 2d4+1 damage (more if you use prayer and/or have a bard with inspirational boost handy) will add up quickly.

[Keld Denar]

You could do what they always did back in Living Greyhawk to make encounters tougher without influencing the CR. You simply add a level of Warrior to any NPC bad guy. Gives them access to heavy armor, an extra d8+con HP, a couple of points in Fort, and potentially an extra feat. Not a HUGE buff, but if you have 10 Orc Barb1/Warrior1s, that increases their hp by about 50% and might bring them out of the 1 shot range into the 2 shot range. A Barb2/Warrior1 gets an extra feat and a few HP over a plain Barb2 and doesn't change their CR, etc. Even a tribal shaman might be a Wizard4/Warrior1 or Cleric4/Warrior1 or something like that.

That's how to do it legally, which LG cared about. You can always just DM fiat increase all HPs by 50% across the board. Nobody will know unless you go around bragging about it.

[supersonic29]

Came back after forever and realized that I said

did 3.5 revise LA X/+Y to LA X/-
When I meant DR X/+Y to DR X/-. Good work me :smallsigh:

That amended, thanks for the aid! Should make for a much more balanced session :smallsmile:

[Ualaa]

While not necessarily balanced, in terms of legally built and playing by the same rules as the players, we had one DM who constructed amazing stories.

If we were engaging one of the bosses three lieutenants, who at the time was the first such major NPC we encountered of the boss's organization (and whom we thought was the boss), the combat was supposed to be challenging.

Much later into the campaign, he revealed to us his 'challenging mechanic'. The under bosses were immune to all damage (nothing deducted hit points) for three rounds. So the wizard could hit the fighter with a 80 point spell (save for half) and the Barbarian/Fighter two-hand power attack guy could go crazy on this lieutenant.
If you ignored his eight henchmen, they'd provide him flanks and such (maybe Rogue 2/Fighter 2, or something similar). If you focused on them, the lieutenant was nasty.

The bosses were challenging, if they just could not be hurt for the first five rounds, and if the damage we dealt was tracked for those five rounds, and at the end of the fifth round he hit half health..., so if we do 233 damage through five rounds, then he actually had 466 damage and is now reduced to half... 233, but invariably our better attacks had been used earlier, so the remaining 50% of health would take longer than the top half.

While these mechanics (or any similar system) aren't 'build it by the books, and make it a legal monster'... they did provide us with challenging opposition, and made relative levels of optimization irrelevant, at least for the thematically correct bad guys. The common mooks never (I assume) had this kind of thing.

[ganondorf50]

Undead specifically 1 wraith 2 specters
Incorporial they will be harder to hit + con drain (sucks to be the fighters now)
The specters have energy drain (that will also suck losing negative levels.

But if you truely want them to fudge their pants... Rust monster it may only be a cr 3 but all those shiny weapons are now DOOMED

Also metal weapons that deal damage to the rust monster corrodes immediately

[torrasque666]

Undead specifically 1 wraith 2 specters
Incorporial they will be harder to hit + con drain (sucks to be the fighters now)
The specters have energy drain (that will also suck losing negative levels.

But if you truely want them to fudge their pants... Rust monster it may only be a cr 3 but all those shiny weapons are now DOOMED

Also metal weapons that deal damage to the rust monster corrodes immediately
Well... dissolves after a reflex save because most of these things are probably magic.

[ganondorf50]

Well... dissolves after a reflex save because most of these things are probably magic.

At level 5 the most they should have is a few +1 items