Incentivizing my players to move away from core

[heavyfuel]

What it says on the tin. What would you give as benefit to players that move away from core?

Here's a list of things I was thinking of granting them - alternatively and to player choice, not additionally - for every level they take a non-core class


Extra skill point (4 extra if at lv 1)
1 extra HP
Double AP for that level (yes, we're using AP)
10% XP bonus for that level
Extra Feat*
Extra gold*
Few extra points in Point Buy*


Under the promisse they never pick a core class for that character

Good? Bad?

Note that I don't want to ban the Core, just give a little push away from it.

[TheCrowing1432]

Well, find out WHY they wont leave core and offer them alternatives.

[Godskook]

Options:

1.Require that all characters have at -least- 1 thing that's non-core about them. Making it a pre-req for everyone means that everyone will do it. Plus, "1 thing" is a very small hurdle. It could be a feat, class, race, or char-gen magic item.

2.Showcase cool classes as enemies in your game. Fixed-list casters, martial adepts, invokers, incarnum-users and psionics all make fairly strong NPCs, and are usually easier to build than core NPCs, so less work for the customization level.

3.Drop items that give specialty powers unique to various systems and make them quest-pieces. An item that gives the Astral Vambraces meld-effect, and the player can take a feat(or find an additional item) that lets him chakra-bind it for the 2 slams. Or maybe drop a Dorje with a cool power on it, but make this one unique. Make it the prized creation of a crazed Cerebramancer. A crown of White Raven might literally be an ancient crown denoting the leader of a local orc tribe. Etc, etc.

4.Position NPCs who would offer your players membership into guilds that train you into certain prestige classes. The wizard into Master Specialist, for instance.

Honestly, you shouldn't need to reward non-core usage because for low-optimization players, non-core is an upgrade.

[Quertus]

Ask your players to come up with a concept that they think would be cool, like ninja pirate zombie robot, Tarzan, whatever. Then build it, and introduce it as a (friendly) NPC. Hand out cool non core items as treasure. Let an amulet of emergency healing save their lives. Create a parallel dream world campaign; their alternate selves in the dream world are non core only. Give them the equivalent of a +1 free level adjustment; but, rather than for race, make it for non core class. Talk to them about how they want to advance their character, and suggest non core feats, classes, etc that you believe would help their build. Take all your core books, and burn them. Have them go on a quest for a cool non core item, or to a special location that allows them to retrain their feats, classes, spells, etc. Introduce a lawful modron nanotech cookie cutter plague (that only affects core only). Create an overpowered recurring villain who showcases some non core options; bonus points if it or some of its minions are obviously vulnerable to certain other non core abilities.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't understand. Why would anyone want to avoid moving away from core?

[Pluto!]

Why are you trying to move them away from core?

[Jormengand]

See, I just did it with little nudges of "Or, you could play a psychic warrior!" "How about trying a beguiler?" "Well, actually, that sounds like you really want to be a dread necromancer". Make it sound like it's the answer to their character concept, not something you're making them do.

[Beelzebub1111]

In my experience, it's because players don't want to learn new systems. I overcame this by introducing enemys with some cool abilities (I think it was a warforged shadow hand focused swordsage) and said to the rogue wanabe ninja "You could learn some of his cool tricks, why not take a look at the martial study feat for your next level, you can use it once per encounter."

I had a binder and a shadowcaster show up as the character with an amnesia backstory as his old allies to introduce tome of magic stuff. I had him expel his binding and quick forge a new one in the middle of combat when the situation called for it, so the players could see the ability in action and what happens when you make a bad pact.

They were interested when I showed them, not told them.

[eggynack]

I'd probably just suggest cool stuff that's powerful and which fits the character in question. Much less problem with research if you don't have to do it yourself, and the awesome afforded by little dips in non-core may get players thinking the research is worth it.

[Red Fel]

Options:

1.Require that all characters have at -least- 1 thing that's non-core about them. Making it a pre-req for everyone means that everyone will do it. Plus, "1 thing" is a very small hurdle. It could be a feat, class, race, or char-gen magic item.

2.Showcase cool classes as enemies in your game. Fixed-list casters, martial adepts, invokers, incarnum-users and psionics all make fairly strong NPCs, and are usually easier to build than core NPCs, so less work for the customization level.

3.Drop items that give specialty powers unique to various systems and make them quest-pieces. An item that gives the Astral Vambraces meld-effect, and the player can take a feat(or find an additional item) that lets him chakra-bind it for the 2 slams. Or maybe drop a Dorje with a cool power on it, but make this one unique. Make it the prized creation of a crazed Cerebramancer. A crown of White Raven might literally be an ancient crown denoting the leader of a local orc tribe. Etc, etc.

4.Position NPCs who would offer your players membership into guilds that train you into certain prestige classes. The wizard into Master Specialist, for instance.

Honestly, you shouldn't need to reward non-core usage because for low-optimization players, non-core is an upgrade.

I really like these.

The fact is, if you want to encourage non-core, you shouldn't be doing it by in-game incentives. Mechanical choices are a metagame construct, not an in-game construct, and thus shouldn't be rewarded in-game. Further, it creates a discrepancy between those who try new material (and are thus rewarded) and those who don't (and thus aren't).

Godskook's suggestions, on the other hand, work nicely. Requiring non-core stuff is a great option - frankly, my first instinct would have been to say "no core classes," which forces the players to use non-core at least for class selection without banning everything core, but I understand your reluctance. But requiring a bit of non-core is a good first step. And it's not unheard of - a lot of games have some restrictions, like "no LAs," or "no Evil characters," or "no Monks, seriously Steve, I swear, not again." Saying "every character must have at least one non-core attribute" runs in the same vein.

Similarly, having NPCs or villains with non-core abilities - and then showing the character sheet after these villains are beaten - tells the players, "See this cool thing that guy did? You can do the cool thing too! It's not just for NPCs!"

Ability-items, much like requiring non-core stuff, have the potential to teach the PCs how to use these new mechanics. However, it's worth noting that if they find new mechanics so intimidating that they're reluctant to use them, giving them items that grant them those mechanics will probably result in them selling the items, and using the money to buy boring stuff they actually want.

But yeah. I think your two best bets are either to require them to choose non-core elements, or to showcase non-core elements in your villains and monsters, or both.

[Nibbens]

[I]f you want to encourage non-core, you shouldn't be doing it by in-game incentives. Mechanical choices are a metagame construct, not an in-game construct, and thus shouldn't be rewarded in-game.

This. Thisthisthisthis.

[tiercel]

Well, find out WHY they wont leave core and offer them alternatives.

This.

It might be that your players might feel overwhelmed by options in splatbook diving and in particular intimidated that as DM you might be preparing to unleash far more on them then they have system mastery to prepare for.

It might be that your players are worried about "broken" and need reassurance.

It might be that they are "stuck in a rut" of familiar archetypes and/or mechanics, and don't realize they can play those archetypes without relying purely on the same ruleset.

There are all kinds of "it might be" but it's simpler to find out by asking -- rather than trying to guess. You don't just want to push "this way of playing is better than your way."

If you understand where they're coming from, it will be easier to figure out how to choose from suggestions already offered here; notably, showcasing a non-Core ability by an NPC/foe is arguably the easiest and least directly intrusive.

[heavyfuel]

Lots of people asking why they don't leave core, and I honestly think it's a mix of familiarity and charOP .

They want what's more familiar to them, as well as classes that have lots of splat love, but most refuse to play classes outside Core.

I've made it clear for them that I'm OK with homebrewing stuff, but it's been fruitless.

Hence I wanted to give them a proper bonus for stepping out of their comfort zone.

As far as presenting cool enemies, I don't think that's the way to go. Imagine being lv 6 (the game is E6) only for you to meet a cool Psion or some other class inaccessible via feats. This would either mean retaining the entire PC or rerolling, neither options I'm particularly fond of.

[Godskook]

As far as presenting cool enemies, I don't think that's the way to go. Imagine being lv 6 (the game is E6) only for you to meet a cool Psion or some other class inaccessible via feats. This would either mean retaining the entire PC or rerolling, neither options I'm particularly fond of.

Run "gestalt" as a series of feats:

Class level [General]

Choose a class. This feat grants you all the class features of one level of the chosen class.

Prerequisites: Level 6

This feat can be taken multiple times. You can choose the same class multiple times, allowing you to gain access to higher levels in the same class. This feat can't grant class features beyond level 6.

Special: Chosen class must be non-core.

[Florian]

I really don´t see the gain by "incentivizing" the players away from Core. If they´re comfortable with it, why subtly force them to change it?
If you´re bored as a GM and want a challenge, then, by all means, start a new campaign and simply put the classes you want as the only choices and be done with it. Your players will either adapt or drop the game, telling you something important by that.

[heavyfuel]

Run "gestalt" as a series of feats:


I already do that (sans the non-core part) :smallbiggrin:

Still, I don't feel like forcing anyone to play outside core, just want to give a little nudge.


I really don´t see the gain by "incentivizing" the players away from Core. If they´re comfortable with it, why subtly force them to change it?
If you´re bored as a GM and want a challenge, then, by all means, start a new campaign and simply put the classes you want as the only choices and be done with it. Your players will either adapt or drop the game, telling you something important by that.

I'm not bored by any means, and I gain nothing from it.

This is really a "why not" scenario. Why not give adventurous players a small bonus? I'm honestly unsure any player will choose the bonus over familiarity, and even if one or two did, what's the harm? It's not like I'm restricting these bonus to a single player. Everyone has that option. Everyone can make their choices.


The fact is, if you want to encourage non-core, you shouldn't be doing it by in-game incentives. Mechanical choices are a metagame construct, not an in-game construct, and thus shouldn't be rewarded in-game. Further, it creates a discrepancy between those who try new material (and are thus rewarded) and those who don't (and thus aren't).

This is a rare case I disagree with you Red.

Is making a Psion have a d6 equivalent really that great of a reward that you would no longer consider playing a Sorcerer if that's what you wanted? Probably not. But if you're having doubts about what to play, it tips the scale in favour of the Psion.

And saying that mechanical choices shouldn't be rewarded in game goes directly against 4 of the core classes (Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, and Druid) where the mechanical choice of casting spells greatly benefits the player. You choose a class because of the benefits you'll reap from it. Casting gamebreaking spells is a benefit much like having a Binder with 3 skill points per level is, even more so.

[johnbragg]

Are you talking about your players making new characters, or picking up levels in non-Core classes?

[Godskook]

I already do that (sans the non-core part) :smallbiggrin:

Still, I don't feel like forcing anyone to play outside core, just want to give a little nudge.

This contradicts your earlier assertion I quoted in my last post. That quote asserted that PCs would need to either reroll or retrain in order to opt-in to the cool new classes. Could you reconcile that contradiction for me?

[Florian]

This is really a "why not" scenario. Why not give adventurous players a small bonus? I'm honestly unsure any player will choose the bonus over familiarity, and even if one or two did, what's the harm? It's not like I'm restricting these bonus to a single player. Everyone has that option. Everyone can make their choices.

*Shrugs*. Confort zones. More powerful as most people expect.
Having said that: New stuff - Way more boring than people expect.
Change in itself is no goal worth attaining because it had nothing to gain.
But: trying to force anything - meet resistance.
Simply facts and proving that it´s mostly not worth it.

[heavyfuel]

Are you talking about your players making new characters, or picking up levels in non-Core classes?

It's a new campaign, so these are soon to be lv 1 characters. I feel my players are too attached to core, and want to make non-core classes slightly more appealing.


This contradicts your earlier assertion I quoted in my last post. That quote asserted that PCs would need to either reroll or retrain in order to opt-in to the cool new classes. Could you reconcile that contradiction for me?

It doesn't contradict it. Most of my players have their entire build thoroughly thought out, from lv 1 to their second gestalted lv 6.

Introducing them to a new class when they already are 6+3 levels into their build would still be weird.

Also, these are seasoned players. I've introduced to plenty of cool builds along the years, and they're still building Barbarians and Rangers.



Having said that: New stuff - Way more boring than people expect.
But: trying to force anything - meet resistance.


Really? ToB, Psionics, and Incarnum seem to be forum favorites because they're so fun and balanced (psionics not so much on the balance part)

Again, I'm not forcing anything. Minor pushs are so very different than forcing anything.

[johnbragg]

It's a new campaign, so these are soon to be lv 1 characters. I feel my players are too attached to core, and want to make non-core classes slightly more appealing.

It doesn't contradict it. Most of my players have their entire build thoroughly thought out, from lv 1 to their second gestalted lv 6.

Maybe try it with a one-shot? Everybody has to use a non-core class or race, or maybe an ACF, and run them through a quick module? Modify the start so that Someone has--

Oooh, ooh, I know. The BBEG has summoned and bound them to help guard the first level of his dungeon. Due to a flaw in the binding, the PCs have amnesia (so they don't have to worry about what sort of backstory a binder or meldshaper or psionic character or dragonborn or warforged or shenanigan kobold should have) and the binding breaks down, leaving the PCs on level one of the dungeon together, ready to go fight for their freedom.

[martixy]

Jeez, some DMs I've seen would kill to have problems like yours.

+1 for eggy's suggestion.

I do not believe there is a reason to try and force things. Though that doesn't mean you can't dangle some bait in front of them.

For example, you could introduce NPCs with cool builds(even cheese) to pique their interest.

[Alex12]

I'm partial to the "throw non-core enemies at them" approach, myself. With appropriate class/subsystem-boosting items as part of their WBL. Also, occasionally throwing in reduced-cost items specifically for those options if the players take them, on the basis that those are obscure options compared to Core and the guy running the magic shop doesn't know what they do (but the PCs, with their specific training, know automatically), so the Shadow Hand swordsage can choose between either a +2 shortsword or a +1 Shadow Hand shortsword for a thousand gold less.