Arcane Thesis: Disintegrate

[Bobby Baratheon]

I know, it's not really optimal. This is more of a thought exercise (more towards PO than TO, though), anyway, though I might go this route with my sorcerer when he gets to sixth level spells.

What can you slap on Disintegrate to take advantage of Arcane Thesis? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Dragon Prophesier/Shaper, though that doesn't take advantage of Arcane Thesis and it doesn't come online until I'd have access to level 7 spells.

Off the top of my head, I think guided spell and split ray would be awesome here. Twin spell would be really good if used in conjunction with Dragon Shaper, as Dragon Shaper explicitly doesn't change the casting time or spell level (free empower! woot!) and Twin spell states that it repeats the spell with the same numeric variables as before. So, twin empowered disintegrate. With Arcane thesis, you could add bend spell and forceful spell as well. Downside, it would become a ninth level spell (and would thus be ineligible for Dragon Shaper), so it'd have to be brought down to eighth level.

Any other ideas or particularly useful combos that go well with Disintegrate?

[Vaz]

Invisibility for -1 to level.

[MisterKaws]

Invisibility for -1 to level.

This is PO, any sane master would rule zero that out of existence as soon as someone tried it.

[Vaz]

You could say the same for the application for Arcane Thesis applying to all Metamagic feats in general, rather than just applying to the overall. And you can even cap it that the net reduction is no greater than 0 anyway.

Also, i'd like to vouch for my own sanity and say that having an additional +1 Metamagic at the expense of a feat didn't cause me more trouble when the game was already shot wide open.

Complaining about that is like complaining that a Minigun shooting another 1000 rounds a minute is broken. It's ALREADY broken. Fighting the elite 4 in pokemon with Legendary Pokemon is broken. Fighting them with level 100 elites, perfect IV's, EV's set right makes them more broken on a scale, but comparatively? Not really.

Taking Invisible Spell does nothing other than -1 spell level. A minor niche benefit, but not really. You can get more variety out of a different Metamagic Feat.

[Eloel]

This is PO, any sane master would rule zero that out of existence as soon as someone tried it.

Your definition of sanity differs from mine.

[OldTrees1]

Chain Disintegrate. Seriously, Chain makes everything better.

[LTwerewolf]

Split ray is also good. Combine with Chain for added lulz.

[Eloel]

Disintegrate can't be chained, it doesn't have a Target: line.

[squiggit]

Chain doesn't work with line spells. It works with any spell that has a single target and a range greater than touch.

[Eloel]

Chain doesn't work with line spells. It works with any spell that has a single target and a range greater than touch.

Let me rephrase:
It doesn't have a line "Target:" in the spell description. It creates a ray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#effect). Ray has a target. The spell doesn't have a target. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#targetorTargets)

[LTwerewolf]

Hey this argument! This is a new argument and has never happened before.

[Eloel]

Hey this argument! This is a new argument and has never happened before.

There is no argument, I'm just stating the RAW.

[LTwerewolf]

Ranged weapon attacks have a target. Rays are weaponlike spells, to use the rules of ranged weapons. Therefore rays have a target. Chain spell does not say "must have target line: single." Ranged attacks specify that they hit a single target. Rays therefore specify that they hit a single target.

[Eloel]

Therefore rays have a target.

Correct. The spell creates the ray. A spell doesn't have a target because it creates a weapon you use to target stuff.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Regardless of how this discussion plays out, I probably won't use chain. That's a little beyond what I'm looking for, power wise. I'm okay with using split ray to waste two guys, but using chain to waste secondary targets equal to caster level. It is half damage, I suppose, but I don't want to outshine my teammates too much.

[LTwerewolf]

It is a weapon-like effect. It does not create a weapon. You're trying too hard.:smallsigh: If you don't want it to work, rule at your table it doesn't.



Regardless of how this discussion plays out, I probably won't use chain. That's a little beyond what I'm looking for, power wise. I'm okay with using split ray to waste two guys, but using chain to waste secondary targets equal to caster level. It is half damage, I suppose, but I don't want to outshine my teammates too much.

Fair enough. You can find a way to add one of the types of energy damage to it and use entangling spell. When you don't explode them, it leaves them debuffed.

[Eloel]

It is a weapon-like effect. It does not create a weapon. You're trying too hard.:smallsigh: If you don't want it to work, rule at your table it doesn't.

I'll keep using RAW at my table on this issue :smallsmile:

[LTwerewolf]

I'll keep using RAW at my table on this issue :smallsmile:

You'd have to start to keep doing it.

[AvatarVecna]

Acting with the understanding that a spell that affects one creature/object is a single target spell, I would say it could be Chained; I believe this is RAW, or at least is RAI and the designers just picked up the Idiot Ball and didn't officially specify a target when it was meant to have one.

Moving on, regardless of whether Chain Spell can apply or not (I believe it can by RAW, but you might have other feelings about what constitutes a specified target), there are plenty of other metamagic feats that can apply: Split Ray, Twin Spell, and Repeat Spell all increase the number of rays being thrown out (and if you can get all three on the same spell, the final result should be 8 rays), but that requires either extremely high level (past 30 at least) or some serious metamagic reduction.

A big point for using Arcane Thesis is slapping on a bunch of +1 metamagic feats without increasing the spell level; in particular, Still and Silent are virtually always useful on your Arcane Thesis spell. Another useful thing is that it lets you throw bigger metamagics on there than you normally could; where usually you'd be limited to an Empowered Disintegrate with a 9th lvl spell, now you could get a Maximized Disintegrate with a 9th lvl spell (which does more damage ~99% of the time).

[Godskook]

I'll keep using RAW at my table on this issue :smallsmile:

You'd have to start to keep doing it.

You both realize that these comments can only serve to incite anger in the other, right? You're not adding to the discussion at large, and in fact, are weakening your positions by the implication behind needing to resort to snide remarks rather than logical arguments to maintain your position.

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@LTwerewolf, he's right on the RAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9958241&postcount=22). A Ray does not target anyone(like a targeted spell would), it is pointed in a direction. This is why you can hit someone with a Ray when you can not sense them, but can't target them with a spell.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Another useful thing is that it lets you throw bigger metamagics on there than you normally could; where usually you'd be limited to an Empowered Disintegrate with a 9th lvl spell, now you could get a Maximized Disintegrate with a 9th lvl spell (which does more damage ~99% of the time).

How would that theoretically interact with Dragon Prophesier/Shaper? I would imagine it doesn't, since empower only effects variable numerical effects, while maximize makes it no longer a variable effect. I'm kind of shooting in the dark here; I've never really invested much in metamagic in any of my previous characters, so I'm not totally sure on how it all comes together. Can empower and maximize work together? If so, that'd be awesome. If not, meh. I'll probably just stick with Dragon Prophesier/Shaper for damage increase and use metamagic that increases the versatility of the spell.

Also, thanks for all the ideas! These are quite helpful.

[Godskook]

Empower and Maximize explicitly stack, and set the precedent for any Empower-esque feat stacking similarly to that method. (That you can apply the other feats first, and then apply Maximize to the base damage)

[Bobby Baratheon]

Empower and Maximize explicitly stack, and set the precedent for any Empower-esque feat stacking similarly to that method. (That you can apply the other feats first, and then apply Maximize to the base damage)
Thanks! I didn't know that, and that is very helpful! What are some other ways to up the damage? Energy admixture comes to mind, but that'd be a little circuitous and I don't know if it'd be possible to get that on a sixth level spell together with maximize. I wonder if scorching ray + searing spell would be the better base spell here. Less damage, but more room to tinker with metamagic.

[Max Caysey]

Twined, split ray! Do it! Do it now!

[PraxisVetli]

I know, it's not really optimal. This is more of a thought exercise (more towards PO than TO, though), anyway, though I might go this route with my sorcerer when he gets to sixth level spells.

What can you slap on Disintegrate to take advantage of Arcane Thesis? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Dragon Prophesier/Shaper, though that doesn't take advantage of Arcane Thesis and it doesn't come online until I'd have access to level 7 spells.

Off the top of my head, I think guided spell and split ray would be awesome here. Twin spell would be really good if used in conjunction with Dragon Shaper, as Dragon Shaper explicitly doesn't change the casting time or spell level (free empower! woot!) and Twin spell states that it repeats the spell with the same numeric variables as before. So, twin empowered disintegrate. With Arcane thesis, you could add bend spell and forceful spell as well. Downside, it would become a ninth level spell (and would thus be ineligible for Dragon Shaper), so it'd have to be brought down to eighth level.

Any other ideas or particularly useful combos that go well with Disintegrate?

What is "Dragon Shaper?"

[Bobby Baratheon]

It's part of the Dragon Prophesier feat chain. I forget what book it's from, but in effect you spend a full-round action go into rounds of "prophetic fervor". The duration and uses per day are both charisma based, so it's pretty easy to get upwards of eighty rounds a day on a spontaneous caster. The first feat just gives you minor benefits for being in fervor, but the subsequent have some pretty cool effects. Dragon Shaper (one of the subsequent feats) gives you a free empower each round you're in fervor without adjusting the casting time or level of the spell, but only if it's of a spell level lower than the highest one you can cast. The only other one I can remember is one that lets you cast a cure/inflict spell as a swift action each round (again, must be one level lower than the highest level you can cast). I think the two stack, making it a surprisingly decent option for a divine caster that wants to tank. Casting an empowered cure/inflict spell as a swift action isn't insanely powerful, but it's a pretty good way to heal yourself/others in combat without wasting actions or to dish out the pain with inflict spells.

[AvatarVecna]

How would that theoretically interact with Dragon Prophesier/Shaper? I would imagine it doesn't, since empower only effects variable numerical effects, while maximize makes it no longer a variable effect. I'm kind of shooting in the dark here; I've never really invested much in metamagic in any of my previous characters, so I'm not totally sure on how it all comes together. Can empower and maximize work together? If so, that'd be awesome. If not, meh. I'll probably just stick with Dragon Prophesier/Shaper for damage increase and use metamagic that increases the versatility of the spell.

Also, thanks for all the ideas! These are quite helpful.

First point, Empower and Maximize explicitly stack; the final result (for a whopping +7 spell levels, or +5 with Arcane Thesis) is max normal damage +half variable damage (so a normally 40d6 Disintegrate instead deals 20d6+240).

Second point, I was pointing out how, even with just a single metamagic, normally you can only Empower Disintegrate (making it a 9th lvl spell), and that deals 60d6, which averages around 215; I was pointing out how, with Arcane Thesis, you can instead use a 9th lvl slot to Maximize (since the cost has been reduced by AT), to deal 240 damage (which is better than 60d6 about 99% of the time). Of course, with AT, getting 60d6 requires an 8th lvl slot instead of a 9th lvl 1, but it's about ultimate capabilities.

Third point (which is more just a tangent discussing the two metamagic feats), if you get something that makes Maximize Spell easier to use by 1 level, and you're trying to figure out whether to use Maximize or Empower (since both now increase spell level by the same amount), use Maximize; the average from Empower is always lower, so when Maximize costs the same, there's no reason not to use it. Sure, Empower can reach greater heights occasionally, but if the spell deals enough damage that you're considering using Empower or Maximize on it, it's likely you don't have to worry about bypassing Energy Resistance (since you've likely long since surpassed what anybody would reasonably have, barring an immunity).

[Bobby Baratheon]

20d6 + 240 is pretty tasty, especially since with Arcane Thesis there's still room for Split Ray on there.

So, metamagic adjustments are:
-Disintegrate (6th level spells)
-Empower (from Dragon Shaper)
-Maximize Spell (+3-1, or +2)
-Split Ray (+2-1, or +1)
-Any +1 or +0 metamagic (maybe bend spell)?

The result being a ninth level spell using two rays that each do 20d6 + 240 damage, and 5d6 on a successful save. Not bad at all. At that level of damage, it may as well be a save or die for most foes.

[AvatarVecna]

20d6 + 240 is pretty tasty, especially since with Arcane Thesis there's still room for Split Ray on there.

So, metamagic adjustments are:
-Disintegrate (6th level spells)
-Empower (from Dragon Shaper)
-Maximize Spell (+3-1, or +2)
-Split Ray (+2-1, or +1)
-Any +1 or +0 metamagic (maybe bend spell)?

The result being a ninth level spell using two rays that each do 20d6 + 240 damage, and 5d6 on a successful save. Not bad at all. At that level of damage, it may as well be a save or die for most foes.

Actually, the metamagic applies to the save damage as well, so that would be 2d6+30 on a failed save...and I just realized that this whole discussion I've been thinking that Empower is +3 and Maximize is +4, when that's not the case. Derp!

Okay, so to actually answer your question, I'll reiterate that getting Silent and Still on your Arcane Thesis spell is useful if you find yourself in a jam where components would be an issue (or you just want to show off by casting your uber-spell while striking a wordless pose); similarly, Transdimensional Spell is good for when your DM gets crabby and tries to trip you up by throwing incorporeal opponents at you to avoid your uber-spell. Enlarge Spell costs +1, and it doubles your spell's range, so that's useful if you need the extra ~300 ft, and if you face a lot of undead, Energize Spell also multiplies your damage by 1.5 against them (although without how multiple multiplications work in D&D, each of these is less "x150%" and more "+50%", so the final result is 200% damage rather than 225%, but that still means that combined with Maximize you're dealing 40d6+240 to undead) While this next suggestion doesn't fall within the +0/+1 range, it's worth mentioning for how dependable it makes your spell: Guided Spell (normally +3 levels) makes your ranged touch attack spell ignore 9/10 cover attempts the attack every round for the next (lvl/3) rounds until you hit...so even if you manage to miss their touch AC, you know it'll eventually hit.

[ericgrau]

Let's look at the applications: Undead & construct slaying, and carving out empty 10 foot cubes. You probably want metamagic that applies to both the combat and utility purposes at the same time.

Split ray is probably the main thing you want to boost both combat and utility purposes.

Energize spell boosts its undead slaying ability like empower without raising its level. So it doesn't help the utility side but the investment is low. Weakens it against non-undead, but you can work around this if you're a sorcerer. Or by casting a different spell against non-undead foes like you were probably going to do anyway.

In general anything nifty that's a +1 metamagic is a nice consideration. Though it still costs a feat.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Incantatrix might help alleviate the feat bind, if I really need to. I'm thinking to invest maybe four to five feats in this; we run a campaign with accelerated feat progression (one every other level), so I'm hardly hurting for feats. That said, I don't want to overinvest in this one method because I don't want to be a one trick pony (though, as an eldritch theurge, I'm really not) and because I like spreading my feats around a bit with this character.
So, let's say five feats (minimum):
-Arcane Thesis
-Dragon Prophesier/Shaper (feats 2 and 3, giving me empower without adjustment)
-Maximize
-Split Ray

I might retrain a couple of other feats though, so let's say I have two more feats I'm willing invest in this over the course of my character's career. This is the kicker; should I go with guided spell (which I might just use in place of split ray)? Or a couple of lesser LA 0/LA 1? feats to tack on to the aforementioned basic combo?

[Khedrac]

First point, Empower and Maximize explicitly stack; the final result ... is max normal damage +half variable damage (so a normally 40d6 Disintegrate instead deals 20d6+240).

Actually, the metamagic applies to the save damage as well, so that would be 2d6+30 on a made failed save.
Minor nitpick but it matters on the made save.
Empower + maximize is not "maximum + half dice" it is "maximum + half rolled"
I.e. on a failed save: 240 + half (40D6)
And on a made save: 30 + half (5D6)

The difference is more noticeable on the made save (half 5D6 v 2D6) but it does affect the distribution (which has more effect the more dice involved).

[AvatarVecna]

Minor nitpick but it matters on the made save.
Empower + maximize is not "maximum + half dice" it is "maximum + half rolled"
I.e. on a failed save: 240 + half (40D6)
And on a made save: 30 + half (5D6)

The difference is more noticeable on the made save (half 5D6 v 2D6) but it does affect the distribution (which has more effect the more dice involved).

I'm not sure if you're correct, since the RAW on the interaction between the two feats is short and poorly-worded (giving an example would've been useful, but I digress). Regardless, while the distribution is different between the two, the way I'm doing it tends to be more much more time-efficient at the game table (especially for large dice sets), hence why my home group does it that way in the rare occasion it even comes up.

Your interpretation seems correct, to be clear, but I'm not totally sure.

[Troacctid]

I'm not sure if you're correct, since the RAW on the interaction between the two feats is short and poorly-worded (giving an example would've been useful, but I digress).

What do mean? The interaction between the two feats is spelled out very explicitly, including an example.


An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. An empowered, maximized fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard deals points of damage equal to 60 plus one half of 10d6.

[AvatarVecna]

What do mean? The interaction between the two feats is spelled out very explicitly, including an example.

I'm not seeing the example in the SRD entry for either feat; I guess it's in the Player's Handbook, then.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Lords of Madness has two items of interest for this disintegrate strategem: the lens of ray widening and the Disintegration Finesse feat. The first one, unfortunately, has a low DC to negate the effects, but it does turn disintegrate into an AoE, which enables plenty of shenanigans, such as giving you the option of adding Sculpt Spell onto your roster. The latter allows you to control how much damage you deal with disintegration effects, as well as allowing you to choose what parts of a creature or object you disintegrate, without affecting anything else.

As for the weak DC of the lens, there's a feat (Enhance Item) that allows you to add your key casting score modifier to the DC of any item you make with one item creation feat. It's in the Epic Level Handbook but is not, itself, an epic feat. Since it only affects one item creation feat, choose one you'll use on every item you make regardless of item type, such as Extraordinary Artisan or Legendary Artisan.

[Bobby Baratheon]

That feat sounds pretty dang awesome, as do those items. Is there any way to get disintegrate earlier than sixth level? I'm kind of wanting to make a disintegrate mage for my next character.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That feat sounds pretty dang awesome, as do those items. Is there any way to get disintegrate earlier than sixth level? I'm kind of wanting to make a disintegrate mage for my next character.Duskblades get it as a 5th level spell, but that's the absolute earliest you can get it on a spell list.

You can, of course, cheat your way to it at level 1 via Heighten Spell, Sanctum Spell, Forceful Spell, Extra Slot, and Extra Spell, but it takes a very permissive DM and lots of retraining.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I figured that would be the only other way :smallannoyed: Oh well. It's not that long of a wait, and the disintegrate metamagics work just fine on scorching ray, which can be a decent enough placeholder with searing spell (which would be retrained later).