Belkar's Int and Wisdom

[Adrius]

I'm pretty sure he gets a +5 bonus to both when whatever he's using them for is in self interest :p

[Mystyco]

Probably just beacuse he's not THAT stupid :P

awh, come on, you would get some thinking about something that is gonna really hurt you before doing it

[The Pink Ninja]

Int and Wis only effect rolls made upon those stats. Not how you actually play the character.

[Emperor Ing]

WIS is will saves, and modifiers to spells, for example, a fireball from someone with 20 WIS is harder to make a save against and more powerful than a person with 18 WIS

INT, not too sure what it does, but all I know is it has something to do with skill pts.

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

WIS is will saves, and modifiers to spells, for example, a fireball from someone with 20 WIS is harder to make a save against and more powerful than a person with 18 WIS

INT, not too sure what it does, but all I know is it has something to do with skill pts. Not quite. While Will saves are always modified by WIS, that stuff about spells is actually to do with INT, WIS or CHA depending on what type of caster you are: divine casters (e.g. Clerics) usually use WIS, prepared arcane casters (e.g. Wizards) usually use INT and spontaneous casters (e.g. Sorcerors) usually use CHA. Whichever one a particular class uses is referred to as that class' Casting Stat and having a high modifier in it also nets you more spell slots/spells per day. Also, numeric effects (such as damage die for a Fireball) tend to be determined by caster level rather than casting stat; the latter mainly affects the saving throw DC to resist a spell's effects.

As for what INT specifically does, it gives you more skill points per level and more bonus languages at first level. Every stat also has certain skills that it modifies, e.g. INT modifies Knowledge checks, WIS Sense Motive checks, etc.
Int and Wis only effect rolls made upon those stats. Not how you actually play the character. I don't see why this should be true. Intuitively, I would presume the opposite. Why stop at INT and WIS? In my next game, I think I'll going play a STR 20 Half-Orc Barbarian and describe him as a scrawny weakling when doing things that don't require explicit rolls modified by STR. Granted, it's harder to role-play mental stats if one is lacking in those stats than is the case for physical stats, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try to make the fluff match the crunch.

As for the topic in general. What evidence do we have that Belkar has a low INT or WIS? That V says so? That's hardly conclusive considering their opinions of each other. As far as I'm aware the only absolute evidence we have for Belkar's WIS is this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), whereby Belkar can't cast Cure Serious Wounds (assuming the scroll was scribed by a Cleric, it's a level 3 spell and thus requires at least 13 WIS to use) but can with +4 to WIS (from Owl's Wisdom), so Belkar's WIS must lie in the range 9-12. We have even less evidence for his INT and recent insight into the inner workings of his mind suggest that while he's no Roy or V, he's not exactly as dumb as a plank either. He just only uses said intelligence when the situation at hand concerns his continued well-being. :smalltongue:

Edit: whee I take things too seriously. :smallannoyed:

[Spiryt]

Geez this discussions will never stop...
According to Cl&Lvl Geekery II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4912) and D&D mechanic Belkar must have min 10 Wis.
I believe him to have 10 maybe 9 Wisdom, which is anyway low.

Some will probably say that it's average score, but notice that when you have no stat higher than 14 (considered good) you usually reroll, or at least beg DM to allow reroll:smallwink:
I know that adventurers are usually little "uber" but anyway stats of " common elven warrior" with Wis 9 and Ch8 are crap.

I ussually consider 12 average stat, so Belkar 10 is quite low, especially for a ranger.

[LordCaelvan]

While 12 may be average for an adventurer (someone could probably crunch numbers and proove me wrong, w/e) 10 is still average for everday people (like us). So if Belkar's wisdom is 9-12, he's not the wisest adventurer around, but he's not lacking in the category either. In any event, I would put his wisdom at 12 (and I havn't looked at the geekery thread yet, I'll head over there next). That's because of his 'insights' that he experienced durring the casting of owl's wisdom. I simply thought that they would demand more than slightly above average wisdom (the thirteen if his real wis is nine), but more like the insights of a very wise character (sixteen, if the original wis is twelve).

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

I ussually consider 12 average stat, so Belkar 10 is quite low, especially for a ranger. You're basing your analysis off an extremely biased sample: adventurers. Your average adventurer is, in terms of his abilities, far superior to the vast majority of people on D&D worlds, even with just an elite array (equivalent to a 25-point point buy and the average result of 4d6 drop the lowest). Most people in D&D settings, before racial ability score adjustments, have the standard array: straight 10s and 11s across the board. So yes, 10 is an average ability score. It's practically defined as an average ability score. Low for an adventurer that makes significant use of the stat in question, average for everyone else. So yes, Belkar has low WIS, if you compare him to the wisest adventurers around (which probably aren't going to be rangers: sure, they need a bit of WIS, but they're primarily combat classes so the physical stats are equally if not more important for them). By the same token, I'm stupid, because I have a lower INT than Einstein.
While 12 may be average for an adventurer (someone could probably crunch numbers and proove me wrong, w/e) Actually, I have crunched the numbers (not as a result of this thread; it was something I did a while ago) and the statistically average result of a single roll of 4d6 drop the lowest is just over 12. :smallwink:

[ThorFluff]

I wouldn't be suprised if it turns out he has like Int 14 or something, only he uses all his skillspoints for stuff he doesn't need as much as Spot :P Like, Climb, Jump, Sneak and whatnot.

[Kesnit]

As far as I'm aware the only absolute evidence we have for Belkar's WIS is this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), whereby Belkar can't cast Cure Serious Wounds (assuming the scroll was scribed by a Cleric, it's a level 3 spell and thus requires at least 13 WIS to use) but can with +4 to WIS (from Owl's Wisdom), so Belkar's WIS must lie in the range 9-12.

I was under the impression :belkar: can't cast any Ranger spells, meaning his WIS has to be lower then 11. Given he could cast CSW with a +4, that would make his WIS 9-10

[Spiryt]

I wouldn't be suprised if it turns out he has like Int 14 or something, only he uses all his skillspoints for stuff he doesn't need as much as Spot :P Like, Climb, Jump, Sneak and whatnot.

100 agree, he is obvioulsy superior in climbing and jumping and good in other things.
Doesn't need... Maybe not beacuse we see that he can use for example move silently to succed. But indeed he should put some ranks in Spot already :haley:

[Saph]

Based on the way he acts, I'd put his Int at 12-13, and his Wisdom at 3-4. He's fairly clever, but he's got less common sense and awareness than ANYONE.

And yes, I know about the Owl's Wisdom thing, but there's no way someone like Belkar could have a Wisdom of 10. I think that one's a case of mechanics being sacrified for funniness.

- Saph

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

Saph makes a good point about humour (and plot, for that matter) overriding mechanics. However, I think that someone with a WIS of 3 or 4 would probably have to be suffering from low-functioning autism to be that imperceptive. :smalltongue: A low but not drastically so WIS is more reasonable. Given that most people in D&D worlds rarely have scores lower than 8 in any stat (I base this off the various typical arrays - standard, nonelite and elite - referred to in official publications), I would say Belkar having a WIS score around about 8 isn't unreasonable. After all, if an 'elite' character's highest modifier is +2, then I suspect someone with a +4 modifier in a given stat would be legendarily capable in that area, so similiarly someone with a -3 or -4 penalty (corresponding to a score between 2 and 5) would be exceptionally useless.

[Revlid]

I agree. 8-9 sounds about right: Not actually disabled, while still a rather unaware and unperceptive person.

[Saph]

I would say Belkar having a WIS score around about 8 isn't unreasonable. After all, if an 'elite' character's highest modifier is +2, then I suspect someone with a +4 modifier in a given stat would be legendarily capable in that area, so similiarly someone with a -3 or -4 penalty (corresponding to a score between 2 and 5) would be exceptionally useless.

But he is exceptionally useless - at anything that doesn't involve killing stuff, anyway. Kish put his wisdom at 3-6 in the "Class and Level Geekery" thread, and justified it as follows:


. . . no ability to notice things, dedication, or common sense, the Giant has stated that he has a low Wisdom, he has no self-awareness, he calls himself a brain-dead moron without ever realizing that's what he's saying, he is unable to resist the urge for mindless destruction even when it nearly gets him killed, he has no short-term memory, he knows his Wisdom is less than Miko's without asking, though having seen her combat abilities he could easily suspect she used it as a dump stat; in the same strip, Roy says it's physically impossible for him to feel stupid after talking to Belkar, which suggests Belkar has low Intelligence and Wisdom both. Vaarsuvius says it's ridiculously low [or Vaarsuvius says it's 12 in a way and context that makes no sense at all, if you prefer]. Finally, Belkar conducted a plan which nearly got him killed without realizing that he wouldn't be resurrected if it did. Belkar should technically need a Wisdom of at least 10 without magical aid to cast Cure Serious Wounds with a single by-the-book 3.5ed Owl's Wisdom, but comparing that example to the mountain of evidence for his Wisdom being really low, I think it's obvious that this is a case of the Giant bending the rules when it makes it funny.)

I'd put his Int a bit higher, since he seems to be able to come up with quite clever plans, providing they have an immediate payoff of killing stuff.

- Saph

[Kreistor]

Saph it can't be that low. Belkar needed a 13 to read the scrolls of Cure Serious Wounds. Subtract 4 for Owl's Wisdom and you get 9. He can't have an 11, or he could cast 1st level spells.

Therefore, Belkar's Wis is 9 or 10.

[Saph]

Saph it can't be that low. Belkar needed a 13 to read the scrolls of Cure Serious Wounds. Subtract 4 for Owl's Wisdom and you get 9. He can't have an 11, or he could cast 1st level spells.

Therefore, Belkar's Wis is 9 or 10.

Cure Serious Wounds is level 4 for a Ranger.

And come on, how many times do people have to repeat this? "Funny" takes higher priority in OotS than "exactly faithful to the D&D rules".

- Saph

[Morty]

I wouldn't push Belkar's Wisdom too low, though. 3 Wisdom is preety extreme, and Belkar isn't completely insane. I'd put his Wis in 7-9 range.

[Chronos]

Also remember that, from the mind flayer's point of view (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), Belkar (a taco) looked like a much more substantial meal than Elan (a diet Coke). And we already know that Elan has one really good mental ability score (Charisma). So at least one of Belkar's mental scores (I'm guessing Int) must be decent, and even his bad scores aren't as bad as Elan's bad scores. I'm guessing Cha 8, Wis 10, Int 14 or so.

[Kreistor]

Cure Serious Wounds is level 4 for a Ranger.

And come on, how many times do people have to repeat this? "Funny" takes higher priority in OotS than "exactly faithful to the D&D rules".

- Saph

Ah, I hadn't looked at the ranger list. So it is 10. I actually knew that once, heh.

But you have to remember, though the Giant hasn't fully stated out the OotS, he has an idea as to what they are and have access to. He knows we're watching and expect this to be a comic about DnD as well as humour. It is not beyond the Giant to maintain both. Consistency is expected, since he has established the DnD rules do apply to the comic.

[mockingbyrd7]

I agree. 8-9 sounds about right: Not actually disabled, while still a rather unaware and unperceptive person. And unable to use Ranger spells without magical aid. (my addition in bold)

Assuming you are talking about his Wisdom, I agree. His intelligence, on the other hand, has been - over the span of the comic - revealed to be probably around 12 to 14. He constantly shows cunning and he schemes and seems to have a lot of skill points, just all in the wrong places. :smalltongue: Finally, it would appear that when serving the Greater Belkar, his Wisdom and Intelligence rise noticably (only for roleplaying purposes) (strip 468)

[Saph]

Ah, I hadn't looked at the ranger list. So it is 10. I actually knew that once, heh.

Except that 10 is an outrageously high estimate for Belkar's Wisdom based on how he acts in . . . well, just about every strip, ever. Can you think of a single character who acts with a lower Wisdom than he does? Maybe Xykon, whose attention span is so short he can't even remember Roy's name. That's about it.

There's a mountain of evidence for Belkar's Wisdom being low (just check Kish's list), and one spell as evidence for it being average. I'm sticking with the mountain.

- Saph

[Silfir]

Well, the fact that he does not apply his wisdom to everyday situations doesn't mean he doesn't have an at least average score. He could, after all, choose to not perceive things or act as if he didn't (Like he pretended to not have noticed Female Roy was actually Roy just to mess with him).

Belkar isn't dumb, he just lets others do the thinking.

[Kreistor]

Except that 10 is an outrageously high estimate for Belkar's Wisdom based on how he acts in . . . well, just about every strip, ever.

Players are not required to play stats. How "wise" a 10 wis is vs. an 18 is highly debatable.

But I would argue that Belkar, though evil, isn't unwise. Wisdom is a measure of insight.

Belkar is not without insight. His tactics against Miko were well chosen to suit his actual strengths, rather than his preference for up close and personal combat. He wisely chose not to engage her in melee.

Belkar also wisely choose to defend Hinjo.

Ultimately, a player is not a slave to his stats. The qualities of Int, Wisdom, and Charisma are not required to be evidenced by actions on the part of the player. In truth, many players are incapable of being as wise, intelligent, or charismatic as the characters they play.

[Draz74]

Based on the way he acts, I'd put his Int at 12-13, and his Wisdom at 3-4. He's fairly clever, but he's got less common sense and awareness than ANYONE.

And yes, I know about the Owl's Wisdom thing, but there's no way someone like Belkar could have a Wisdom of 10. I think that one's a case of mechanics being sacrified for funniness.

- Saph

100% agree. And his fairly abundant skill points are mostly put into Climb, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Craft (Trapmaking), Profession (Gourmet Chef)*, and Swim. No Spot, Listen, Search, Survival, Concentration ... his attention span won't stand for it.

*(Confirmed in a bonus strip in DCF, or so I hear.)

[Adrius]

This was.. a joke..

[Spiryt]

I think that people mistake Belkar's evilness, chaotic aligment, "deep seated emotional problems" and his "unique viewpoint" with extremaly low Wisdom...
Maybe 10 is too high, but it surely can't be lower than 9. His short attention span is so short beacuse he "don't give a dire rat ass about" almost everyting.
Adrius was joking, but it's true - when he is interested in something his ideas are quite reasonable. Belkar just isn't person who will for example : go in some interest to the bank. Interest other than robbing it.


This was.. a joke..

Shoking, isn't it?:smallwink:

Some certain topics on this forum only wait for any pretext to be discussed.

[Post]

Like Kreistor says, the Miko fight shows Wisdom. If he was retarded he would have just charged her and raged.

[Gandal]

Belkar is probably low-average wisdom (9-ish) and I think he has fairly high int. Not V-high, but maybe higher than Durkon, lower than Roy, and a tiny bit lower than Haley. V's comment about Belkar being about as intelligent as a table is a) biased and b) untrue - Belkar just chose an unwise path to try to get himself deliberately killed to get Miko fallen. He understood and knew of the game mechanics enough to see that that decision would work, but...wasn't wise. And I'm tired and I will stop rambling and will go to bed. :smallsigh:

[Sylian]

Belkar has a terrible will save, confirmed by Rich. Rich has said that Belkar has a low wis, and 10 isn't exactly low. I'd guess his wis is around 6. Probably not that good cha either, and int around 8-12. He's pretty cunning.

Also, he has a terrible spot check. Low wisdom.