How will this build compare with the rest of the party.

[Pagz]

Ok, for ages now I've been trying to get a claw build going, and finally I may have one that could be half decent compared to the other melee fighters in the party. Starting at level 4...

Race: Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
Stats:
Str:10
Dex:21
Con:10
Int:14
Wis:8
Cha:8
HP:20
AC:21 (+1 studded leather)
Levels 1-5 as Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), then go into Kensai and take specialty weapon (claws).
Take Combat Expertise and Weapon focus (claws) as level one and three feats, then Weapon finesse as my level 6 feat. Putting stat bonus for leveling up onto dexterity.
Using a longbow till level 6.
The bonuses being put on my claws will most likley be +1, then the +1d6 elemental damage additions, then it all depends on circumstances.
Using Racial substitution levels of Kobolt ranger, ill put the favored enemy on fey.
Movement speed: 40ft

Books I can use: SRD (No psionics)
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook
Races of Faerun
All the Completes except Complete Champion
Races of Destiny, Wild, Stone, Dragon

Yes, I know about the claw classes in ToB, yes, I know savage species has the feral template, yes, they have to be permanent, yes, I know about shadow blade. What I'm saying here is, I know that their are alternatives to making great claw builds in sources I cannot use, so using the sources I have been permitted to use, will this character be able to keep up with the rest of the party, or will he be more of a hindrance? I know he's not the most efficient character... but hopefully he'll work at some level. If anyone has any suggestions for this build, or even have their own build using the books I can use, I would be very appreciative. Yea, I'm kinda determined ^^.

From character builder thread Gah, I'm so tired of looking for idea's for this to work, trying to figure out how this will be an alright character when it comes down to fighting, however its not working, so maybe if I post here, someone can post a build that can keep up with other melee fighters, maybe I can edit it, or keep it as it is, we'll just have to see, but I'm putting a challenge out to all you veterans of the game out there to help me out.

Q.1Create me a competent claw orientated combatant, from lv1 to 20, starting at level 4.
Books:SRD (No psionics)
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook
Races of Faerun
All the Completes except Complete Champion
Races of Destiny, Wild, Stone, Dragon
Race:Anything with LA+2 or less, Int of 3 or higher
Class:Any
Ability scores:32 point buy
Alignment:Any
House rules:Faerun setting
Concept:A character who uses his claws as his primary form of attack, everything else is secondary.
Other:The claws must be permanent

If even one person can post a build, I'd be very grateful, I have an idea in my mind, the best I could come up with was a strange Kobolt varient ranger going into Kensai, so any help from you guys would be great.

If I've missed anything, please post it.
Also, I was wondering if I had a hat of disguise, will that +10 modifier be added If I was a kobold trying to disguise myself as a halfling. CAN I try and disguise myself as a halfling?

[Counterspin]

I'm confused why you're choosing to focus on claw attacks and then use strength as a dump stat and play a small character. If you want to do the claw thing, I say go whole hog. There must be a medium race with no LA or hit dice with claws. Of course, if you're attached to the kobold thing, disregard. But may I suggest the following feat from the MM?

Improved Natural Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.

I'm sorry, but I think the only way the character you've described can be effective is by ignoring the reason you constructed him, the claw attacks.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Ok, for ages now I've been trying to get a claw build going, and finally I may have one that could be half decent compared to the other melee fighters in the party. Starting at level 4...

Race: Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)
Stats:
Str:10
Dex:21
Con:10
Int:14
Wis:8
Cha:8
HP:20
AC:21 (+1 studded leather)
Levels 1-5 as Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), then go into Kensai and take specialty weapon (claws).
Take Combat Expertise and Weapon focus (claws) as level one and three feats, then Weapon finesse as my level 6 feat. Putting stat bonus for leveling up onto dexterity.
Using a longbow till level 6.
The bonuses being put on my claws will most likley be +1, then the +1d6 elemental damage additions, then it all depends on circumstances.
Using Racial substitution levels of Kobolt ranger, ill put the favored enemy on fey.
Movement speed: 40ft

Books I can use: SRD (No psionics)
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook
Races of Faerun
All the Completes except Complete Champion
Races of Destiny, Wild, Stone, Dragon

Yes, I know about the claw classes in ToB, yes, I know savage species has the feral template, yes, they have to be permanent, yes, I know about shadow blade. What I'm saying here is, I know that their are alternatives to making great claw builds in sources I cannot use, so using the sources I have been permitted to use, will this character be able to keep up with the rest of the party, or will he be more of a hindrance? I know he's not the most efficient character... but hopefully he'll work at some level. If anyone has any suggestions for this build, or even have their own build using the books I can use, I would be very appreciative. Yea, I'm kinda determined ^^.

From character builder thread Gah, I'm so tired of looking for idea's for this to work, trying to figure out how this will be an alright character when it comes down to fighting, however its not working, so maybe if I post here, someone can post a build that can keep up with other melee fighters, maybe I can edit it, or keep it as it is, we'll just have to see, but I'm putting a challenge out to all you veterans of the game out there to help me out.

Q.1Create me a competent claw orientated combatant, from lv1 to 20, starting at level 4.
Books:SRD (No psionics)
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Forgotten Realms Player's Handbook
Races of Faerun
All the Completes except Complete Champion
Races of Destiny, Wild, Stone, Dragon
Race:Anything with LA+2 or less, Int of 3 or higher
Class:Any
Ability scores:32 point buy
Alignment:Any
House rules:Faerun setting
Concept:A character who uses his claws as his primary form of attack, everything else is secondary.
Other:The claws must be permanent

If even one person can post a build, I'd be very grateful, I have an idea in my mind, the best I could come up with was a strange Kobolt varient ranger going into Kensai, so any help from you guys would be great.

If I've missed anything, please post it.
Also, I was wondering if I had a hat of disguise, will that +10 modifier be added If I was a kobold trying to disguise myself as a halfling. CAN I try and disguise myself as a halfling?

I'm probably missing something, but how are you getting a claw attack? Kobolds don't have 'claw' natural weapons... Is this a substitution level of some kind?

[skywalker]

I'm probably missing something, but how are you getting a claw attack? Kobolds don't have 'claw' natural weapons... Is this a substitution level of some kind?


Kobolds do have claws. If they have no weapons, Kobolds have both claws and a bite attack.


Does it have to have no LA? Wasn't your last build lizardfolk? Why'd you abandon that one?

Counterspin, the only race with claws in those sources that has no LA are kobolds(EDIT: unless you count skeletons? as a race...)


EDIT: What about going sorcerer and becoming a dragon disciple at 6th level? You won't start with claws, but you will get them at 7th character level.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Kobolds do have claws. If they have no weapons, Kobolds have both claws and a bite attack.

When did this happen? According to the MM, they don't. (For nitpickers: yes, they do likely have claws, but like not of the magnitude to get an actual 'claw' attack)

[Kurobara]

If you're really set on something like this (though I'm not seeing claws in the SRD entry for kobolds either...), you might want to look at the variant kobolds in the variants section of the SRD (the stuff from Unearthed Arcana). All but the aquatic one shuffle the stat penalties around a little bit, the earth one probably wouldn't be great for you since it gets rid of the dex bonus to make the str penalty lower, but all the others shove part of the normal stat penalties off onto various mental stats.

Also, while I've not looked at Races of the Dragon much myself, I think it has a good amount of stuff for kobolds.

[Everyman]

It's a variant kobold that came about due to the release of Races of Dragon, I believe.

As far as the build goes...eh. I'm sorry, but that is not going to be an effective little kobold as designed.

For starters, you don't have Weapon Finesse yet, but have a massive Dex bonus. That should be a priority for your current build. Second, your claw damage is going to be pitiful without a hefty strength bonus. Finally, you don't have a Con bonus...and that's a bad, bad thing for ANY melee warrior. Besides, you'll want it when you become a Kensai, since so many of their abilities require Concentration (which is the only Con skill).

I would recommend switching the ability scores you put into Dex and Str (I assume 18 and 12, respectively) and your Con and Int. If you're interested, I would try and following....

Ability Scores: STR 14, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 10, WIS and CHA 8
Feats: Improved Natural attack (claw), Weapon Focus (Claw), Weapon Finesse (as 6th level feat)
Average HP: 25-26 HP
AC: 19 (+1 Chain shirt)

Average Attack Bonus: +7
Damage: 1d6 + 2 (average 5-6)

At 8th level, you can throw another stat point into Dex, making you a much better combatant AND raising your AC. I would also focus on getting some Gloves of Dexterity as soon as possible, and eventually grabbing a Str boosting item.

For comparison, let's look at a level 6 version of our builds (assuming we've enhanced our claws)...
YOURS
Attack Bonus: +12
Damage: d4 + 1 (Average of 3-4 points of damage)

MINE
Attack Bonus: +10
Damage: d6 + 3 (Average of 6-7 points of damage)

What looks better to you? Frankly, I'd rather sacrifice a couple points attack bonus to double my damage, but it's up to you.

PS. This is by no means an optimized build.:smallsmile:

[Pagz]

If you read the Kobold entry I linked to, its a kobold variant with 2 1d3 claw and a 1d3 bite attacks, which is why I didn't choose Improved natural attack, since doing .5 more damage for a feat seems a little silly.

Well if Str makes that much of a difference, why don't I just take two levels of Swashbuckler? Then Str doesn't matter as much since I can pretty much use Int as bonus damage. Also with this, I get weapon finesse as a bonus feat at level 1 which free's up my feat at level 6 for something else. So if the build went Swashbuckler2/Ranger3/KensaiX/RangerX. His average damage at level 6 would then be

Attack Bonus: +12
Damage: 2d3 +3 (average 6)

Which would do on average 1 damage less then your build with +2 attack bonus.

Also, your build doesn't allow entry into Kensai, so technically your build doesn't get the enchantment bonus from the class.

So now with swashbuckler, these builds do exactly the same damage and allow me entry into kensai, and allowing me to use my Int for precision damage (If it gets bad with undead or constructs, I'll either put their bane on my claws or let someone else handle it.

I can always pick up Toughness and Con increasing stuff to raise my HP anyway, or become the clerics best friend.

Does anyone think that Ranger is kind of dead weight? What other class would be well suited instead of it? (Note Concentration is a class skill for Rangers) I know this guy is probably going to be pitiful, but bare with me :smallbiggrin:

[Bassetking]

Pick up Swordsage instead of Ranger. Focus Tiger Claw, with Stone Dragon to augment.

[Jack_Simth]

Extra attacks and a dex bonus just begs Rogue.

You have three attacks per round at level 1 to add that tasty 1d6 sneak attack. Take Weapon Finess. Suddenly the fact that the natural attacks deal a mere 1d3 points of damage doesn't matter. No need for a manufactured weapon at all until 5th (when the party Wizard starts casting Haste, so that you can bump yourself up to four attacks) unless it's ranged.

Tack on the Slight Build and you've got an extra +4 to Hide.

The linked variant just screams Rogue - loudly.

... that is, until you hit the nifty about the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage - then it screams Sorcerer even louder. Especially when combined with such PrC's as the Mage of The Arcane Order (Complete Arcane) - although you'll want a Flaw (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/unearthedFlaws.html) or two to pull it off properly; Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order-10/Archmage-5 - feats: 1st: Arcane Preparation, CoOperative Metamagic (Flaw based; I'd suggest Vulnerable (-1 AC), as you'll have three sources of AC out of the box: Dex, Size, and Natural Armor), 3rd: Some arbitrary Metamagic Feat, 6th: Draconic Reserve, 9th: Spell Focus (Something), 12th: Spell Focus (Something else), 15th: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), 18th: Arbitrary feat (you also get two bonus metamagic feats from the Mage of the Arcane Order). Ideally, arrange to get the Desert Kobold (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/unearthedEnvironmentalVariants.html#desert-kobolds) racial variant as well - skip the light blindness, trade the Con penalty for a Wis penalty, and some less meaningful stuff. After 6th level (when you go on the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, of course), you have spell level access just as fast as the Wizard. With the Mage of the Arcane Order, you can also pull up "the perfect spell" essentially once a day. But that gets a little cheesy - but then, so do most PrC sets. This one at least takes all the levels of both PrC's.

[Jack Mann]

Pick up Swordsage instead of Ranger. Focus Tiger Claw, with Stone Dragon to augment.

He said he can't use Tome of Battle.

[Gavin Sage]

Pick up Swordsage instead of Ranger. Focus Tiger Claw, with Stone Dragon to augment.

From OP:

Yes, I know about the claw classes in ToB, yes, I know savage species has the feral template, yes, they have to be permanent, yes, I know about shadow blade. What I'm saying here is, I know that their are alternatives to making great claw builds in sources I cannot use, so using the sources I have been permitted to use, will this character be able to keep up with the rest of the party, or will he be more of a hindrance? I know he's not the most efficient character... but hopefully he'll work at some level. If anyone has any suggestions for this build, or even have their own build using the books I can use, I would be very appreciative. Yea, I'm kinda determined ^^.

[Callix]

Basically, at low levels a claw combatant can be competitive with extra damage sources. But the loss of iterative attacks at high levels is a steep price for early utility. A variant kobold rogue with weapon finesse, but no long-term commitment to claws (feats etc), can use its 3 attacks at low levels, then upgrade to a rapier for better damage and crits when they get 3 iteratives. As it stands, claw builds are never really going to make good characters, apart from ToB etc.

[Bassetking]

Mea Culpea, Mea Maxima Culpea, and a hundred lashes with a wet noodle.

To make up for my poor reading skills, I come bearing gifts!

Consider picking up the Feat "Dragon Tail" from "Races of the Dragon". It'll add an additional natural attack into your natural attack chain, at a higher damage than your claws.

If you're dedicated to the Ranger Levels, consider asking your DM about taking the 4th level substitution "Kobold Ranger" on 109 of Races of the Dragon.

While the Build screams "Rogue" you can also consider "Scout". A fundamental Commandment of Character Optimization says "Thou shalt not TWF unless thou has a secondary source of damage, such as sneak attack or Skirmish."

As a small sized Kobold, consider picking up Underfoot Combat and "Confound the Tall Folk" from Races of the Wild, and asking your party's mage to hit you with "Reduce Size" before the combat begins. Your damage will plummet, but you'll become a tripping-machine.

Ask your DM if he would, since your build is dependent, nay, chained to your claws, if he would permit you to take the feat "Catfolk pounce" even though you are not, in fact, a Catfolk. This is in no way guaranteed to work, but consider asking in any case, as the ability to full-attack at the end of a charge is HUGE for your build. Defining. Necessary for it to function in any KIND of effective manner.

I'm uncertain as to how much more assistance I can provide, other than saying... You're 100% correct, there are very, very viable claw-builds in ToB, Comp. Champ., Magic of Incarnum, and Psionics. Without access to these... Your ability to produce a viable claw-build is... highly, highly hindered.

[Pestlepup]

Alternatively, make a human Fighter with Willing Deformity and Deformity (Claws) (From the Book of Vile Darkness). Not an optimized solution perhaps, but I'd do it for the giggles. Besides, then you could go for Improved Natural Attack, Weapon Foci and Specializations as the mood hits you. You'd probably want to invest more heavily in strength, though, but that's up to you

By way of comparison, here's what this would likely look like at level 6.

Level 1 [Feat][Bonus Feat][Fighter Feat] - Willing Def, Def. (Claw), Finesse
Level 2 [Fighter Feat] - Weapon Focus
Level 3 [Feat] - Whatever rocks your boat. Skill Focus (Craft [Knitting]) for example.
Level 4 [Fighter Feat] - Weapon Specialization
Level 5 [Nothing] - *cry*
Level 6 [Feat][Fighter Feat] - Improved Natural Attack, Whatever seems useful

Assuming you'd go for the Dex build, it'd look something like +11/+6 (1d8+3), damage averaging at 7½ (4-11).

Go for the strength build and you'll wind up with the following, assuming you'll ditch Finesse for Power Attack, (maybe pick up Dodge and Cleave on the way) +11/+6 (1d8+6) to +5/+1 (1d8+11) averaging at 10½ (7-14) and 15½ (12-19) respectively.

Becoming a Kensai'll be frustrating without multiclassing, though. Unless you're willing to wait up until level 10, that is. :smallsmile:

[skywalker]

So is the lizardfolk right out, then?

Yes, I was referring to the RotD kobolds, as was the OP, I believe.

Was it someone else who was trying to optimize a lizardfolk claw-master? Possibly also doing something with the willing deformity feats?

I highly doubt the OP can use willing deformity, since BoVD is NOT on the list of allowed books.

[Pestlepup]

I highly doubt the OP can use willing deformity, since BoVD is NOT on the list of allowed books.

Oh fudgesickle. Missed that one. It's just one the few ways to get permanent claws, but VD will do that to you. That, and nasty sores.

[Tor the Fallen]

I'm sure it has already been mentioned, but there are some very viable psychic warrior claw builds out there.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I'm sure it has already been mentioned, but there are some very viable psychic warrior claw builds out there.

Psionics aren't allowed according to his list of 'allowed' materials.

[Flawless]

So if the build went Swashbuckler2/Ranger3/KensaiX/RangerX. His average damage at level 6 would then be

Attack Bonus: +12
Damage: 2d3 +3 (average 6)


You get insightful strike at swashbuckler 3, not 2.