Is enlarge person a good idea on a melee sorcerer?

[magicalmagicman]

At level 3 I was planning on having Mage Armor + Shield + Grease, but now I'm thinking Mage Armor + Enlarge Person + Grease and grab a mithril buckler.

What do you guys think?

My 25point buy human is currently 3 sorcerer and
STR 14
DEX 11
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 14

Enlarge Person would give me reach, but my AC will be a pathetic 14, but with shield it would be 18.

[Geddy2112]

These kind of situations are never good in a vacuum. Sometimes, enlarging yourself might be the exact right thing to do, particularly if you have some nasty natural attacks or something. Other times, it might be the absolute worst idea, and having shield is the correct one.

The way I would answer this is-Can anyone else in the party benefit from enlarge person? If so, enlarge person is probably the best choice. If nobody else in the party benefits from this, take shield.

Or get a wand of enlarge person-you rarely need it for more than a few rounds anyways. That said, you could get a wand for shield as well.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Shield probably isn't worth it until later levels. Next level you'll be able to pick up Alter Self and change into a form with decent natural armor for a better duration, and even get natural attacks out of it.

I suggest you pick up Fist of Stone for a nice Slam attack instead.

Enlarge Person is niche, but also useful. The situations in which you'll use it vary. It's worth picking up.

[Oroul]

At level 3 I was planning on having Mage Armor + Shield + Grease, but now I'm thinking Mage Armor + Enlarge Person + Grease and grab a mithril buckler.

What do you guys think?

My 25point buy human is currently 3 sorcerer and
STR 14
DEX 11
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 14

Enlarge Person would give me reach, but my AC will be a pathetic 14, but with shield it would be 18.

***

First: That's 16 points, bro. Before the human bonus. Otherwise 12 13.

14 - 5 pts
12 - 2 pts
11 - 1 pts
8 - (-2) pts

If you're a melee Sorcerer, you should consider 16 / 12 / 14 / 10 / 8 / 16. Note that the human bonus is NOT included, if you take a 2hander, +2 to STR would be nice. (Although I would go 7 Int myself as I like a huge defining weakness. And I would waste comprehend language every time other characters want to speak in my back. And call the other characters slow. Did it once.)

***

Second: What's your bloodline, what are you working with? What I mean to say is that some weapons / attack forms will make it worth your while to enlarge yourself. I am a fan of True Strike + Power Attack / Deadly Aim myself.

One of my favorite character ever was Sorcerer 1 / Paladin 5 / Dragon Disciple 6. Strength 16 +2 (Half-Orc Bonus) / Constitution 14 / Cha 14. Add the Dragon Disciple Stat increase, True Strike (Which can be cast in armor no problem), Still Spell Feat, Shield and that trait that allows one spell to have 1 level worth of metamagic less and you had: A paladin with a Greatsword, a Shield Spell, Stats increases from Dragon Disciple, Claws as needed, Breathweapon, almost a Barbarian's hp.... and soon the ability to shapeshift into a dragon.

***

So I would go Mage Armor / Shield / True Strike, 19 AC, Power Attack or Toughness. Assuming Draconic Bloodline.

[magicalmagicman]

This is 3.5 not pathfinder. XD

[Oroul]

This is 3.5 not pathfinder. XD

Yikes!

Remember, you have no Edge (Shadowrun), Willpower (WoD, both Old and New), Force Point (Star Wars Saga, Fantasy Flight Gaming's), Hero Point (Pathfinder Alternate Rules), Emergency Dice (Dream Pod 9) or other resource to trade in and save your ass, so Min-Maxing is pretty much your only defense.

Furthermore, assuming Weapon Focus and a Masterwork Weapon, your attack bonus currently is:

BaB: +1
Str: +2
W.F.: +1
M.W.: +1
Total: +5

This means, without flank, you hit a common CR 1/3 goblin warrior on a 10. 9 if Flat-Footed.

This is not good.

I would DEFINITELY go 16 / 12 / 14 / 3 / 12 / 14 and take Toughness as a feat. I would also go full defense, meaning Shield + Mage Armor. Third spell would be True Strike, allows one last perfect shot at a fleeing enemy, but otherwise would seldom see use. Mage Armor + Shield all the way, all the time.

Edit: Just remembered it was 3.5's Toughness. Which means you're wasting 1 precious feat for 3 hp now and forever. At least a toad can be replaced. I would still dip 2 levels in paladin for Saves / HP / Higher BaB, actual weapons' proficiency.

[magicalmagicman]

You can't get a 3 in ability scores. 8 is lowest.

You're forgetting buffs and debuffs. Grease alone will add a -4 to their ac, and when you hit level 4 you can grab glitterdust for an additional -2 ac and complete negation of their dex bonus to AC in addition to gaining total concealment. Grease also lets you make an enemy drop his weapon and waste his turns trying to pick it up or fight with barehands resulting in -4 to their attack, so the only problem here would be luck and number of actions.

So in other words, hitting things isn't that big of a problem.

I guess the main debate here is:
More damage, more reach, and ability to enlarge your allies v.s. more AC.

I'm leaning towards enlarge person because it lets me be a BFC in addition to melee, and bucklers might get me through until I hit level 5, when I can grab shield.

As a true gish I would agree with your suggestions of dipping into other classes, but this sorcerer isn't a true gish. BFC first and melee secondary (I don't like crossbows).

[Florian]

Enlarge Person would give me reach, but my AC will be a pathetic 14, but with shield it would be 18.

Don´t forget that Enlarge Person gives you Str, making it easier to hit with touch spells. Reach vs. Non-Reach targets allows you to not cast defensively, too, and if you have a sustained touch spell (like Ghoul Touch), you can use it to make AoOs.

For defense, you might run better with some Mirror Image as the miss chance isn´t affected by the changing AC.

[magicalmagicman]

Don´t forget that Enlarge Person gives you Str, making it easier to hit with touch spells. Reach vs. Non-Reach targets allows you to not cast defensively, too, and if you have a sustained touch spell (like Ghoul Touch), you can use it to make AoOs.

For defense, you might run better with some Mirror Image as the miss chance isn´t affected by the changing AC.

You lose 1 attack as size penalty, so +2 str (1 attack) -1 attack = 0 attack gain XD

[Florian]

You lose 1 attack as size penalty, so +2 str (1 attack) -1 attack = 0 attack gain XD

Wrong. Minimum is always (1) AoO regardless of your Dex mod unless your staggered or something like a Zombie.

[Oroul]

You can't get a 3 in ability scores. 8 is lowest.
An online calculator allowed it. Besides, since the system was based on 3d6 for each stat, I saw no good reason for it to banned with point buy either.


You're forgetting buffs and debuffs. Grease alone will add a -4 to their ac, and when you hit level 4 you can grab glitterdust for an additional -2 ac and complete negation of their dex bonus to AC in addition to gaining total concealment. Grease also lets you make an enemy drop his weapon and waste his turns trying to pick it up or fight with barehands resulting in -4 to their attack, so the only problem here would be luck and number of actions.

So in other words, hitting things isn't that big of a problem.
Well, the action economy is a big thing, your save DC is pretty low (DC 13, right?), and since the spell's description doesn't mention any penalty to AC, I have to presume you already consider your target prone. Besides, a 10 foot square won't help you much against those 10 goblins. So you will run out of resources rapidly and other characters will attack and eliminate the targets you debuff.



I guess the main debate here is:
More damage, more reach, and ability to enlarge your allies v.s. more AC.

I'm leaning towards enlarge person because it lets me be a BFC in addition to melee, and bucklers might get me through until I hit level 5, when I can grab shield.

As a true gish I would agree with your suggestions of dipping into other classes, but this sorcerer isn't a true gish. BFC first and melee secondary (I don't like crossbows).

Well, no matter where your foe landed in the Grease Spell area, a large character can reach it with a melee weapon. Besides, you are squishy, so getting an attack before the opponent can close in on you is a good thing. Furthermore when your foe is actually large or larger, being large yourself might allow you to avoid AoO. So, if the universe around you converge to make sure you can both have your cake and eat it (that is, neither your available spell slots nor the action economy screw you over), enlarge person is the best choice.

As an added benefit, you can cast it on others, or stay behind your fighter while using your reach to attack monsters. Not perfect, but not being aimed at beats having AC.

[Oroul]

Wrong. Minimum is always (1) AoO regardless of your Dex mod unless your staggered or something like a Zombie.

Well, orange juice is a great anti-depressant? Seriously wut?

Guy's right. His damage increases, but his to-hit stagnates.

[Florian]

Well, orange juice is a great anti-depressant? Seriously wut?

Guy's right. His damage increases, but his to-hit stagnates.

Lol, I read his +1 attack / -1 attack not as "to hit" but as regarding Attacks of Opportunity. You know, because of the change in Dex due to size change.