My players won't try anything but persuasion. Should I hint more?

[YCombinator]

Hey everyone,

I just had a session that was a lot of fun but I worry about it leading to issues. Here's how things have gone. My players have cross dangerous countryside after escaping a Drow prison. They have seen Drow all over the countryside roaming as the party has avoided them. Now they have finally made it to Silverymoon.

This most recent session went as follows:

1) Easy-medium combat that they won very easily. Meant not to challenge them but to be very quick and enhance the story. The countryside is very dangerous now. You must go to the city for protection.

2) Arrive at Silverymoon, the guards at Sundbar Gate say "We're at war. The city is on lock down. You're probably spies. Go away"

3) Group made a persuasion check and failed. I intended for it to be very difficult so that the real challenge for the evening what how to get in. Fight? Sneak? Charm Person? Disguises? Bribes? You name it.

4) Group met members of the Emerald Enclave that I through in because they spent so much time in the forest discussing what to do that I wanted the plot to develop.

5) Went to North Gate and attempted a persuasion check on a different set of guards.

We're a very talky group, I should say. People tend to discuss the optimal strategy at great length. I might consider trying to push things away from out of character discussion since that can make things drone on. But really, we're having fun with that. But I think the players might have been a bit frustrated after the second persuasion check failed.

I have several outs planned for this in case the party does nothing.

1) Their are members of the Zhentarim (black network) or thieves guild that the party finds actually sneaking out. They can approach the group for help getting in.

2) They decide to wait and camp out since all other plans have failed. The drow army attacks. An absolutely deadly encounter of drow comes. They heroes defend themselves. The city needs to also defend itself. The party, caught outside the gate are helped into the city once the guards realize how useful they are and how they are clearly not spies.

The problem is my party never tried anything like sneaking, charming, trickery, or the such. They didn't look to investigate the walls for holes. They never even asked what specific parts looked like. They failed persuasion and then said "Hey what about we just stay here. If Drow attack they'll see we are not enemies because we'll fight them." I was a little disappointed that they went right from the obvious persuasion roll directly to the giving up option that I had as a last result. Furthermore they never remember to use bardic inspiration on the checks or even use help actions to gain advantage.

What to do:

I could just say "Well, it's been 30 minutes real time, they are not going to try anything, time to send in the Zhentarim agent immediately. This seems like very quickly railroading. It also seems, in game time, extremely fast. They went to two gates asked to be let in, then a thief comes and opens the back door.

I could hint more. "Hey Bard, remember, again, you have bardic inspiration." ... "Hey Sorcerer, remember how you have charm person? Do you think that's a good idea?"... "Hey, everyone, have you thought about checking near the wall that's not right near the gate? Maybe there are some secret passageways."

I feel like if I were to make any of these suggestions it would feel like playing the characters for them, more railroading, and also once the DM says "Hey have you considered investigation for secret doors?" you pretty much know that's possible and you will just search and search until you find it and you'll assume that *the* answer and that you've just been given the answer.

We had fun the other day, don't get me wrong. But I am worried that this group is just not really thinking about all of their abilities or thinking about what's possible. No group will, obviously. But I think a whole night where their only non-directed actions operating on their own free will (aka not in combat) were two persuasion checks.

Any suggestions on how to push? More NPC hand holding and giving answers? More pointing out their characters abilities? Just make the persuasion check at east gate magically succeed?

[N810]

This is when Our DM has all of us roll intelligence checks,
to see If our characters realize something that us players don't realize. :smalleek:
(we get a hint if we pass)

[Hrugner]

I usually say something like "You're starting to think persuasion isn't going to work here.", or have one of the guards recognize them, "You're the beggars Francis Barnworthy turned away last night aren't you." so they know repeat attempts are having an impact on future attempts.

Just let them know they're not on the right track.

[YCombinator]

This is when Our DM has all of us roll intelligence checks,
to see If our characters realize something that us players don't realize. :smalleek:
(we get a hint if we pass)

Not that this is necessarily a problem, but my party's intelligence scores are [-1, 0, 1, -1, -1]

I could just not make those rolls since if you're even going to fudge a roll you should just not make it. So maybe I just tell them that something dawns on them?

[N810]

yea, that's why they all get to roll (somebody's bound to make it), also make it a success on like a 10+ :smallwink:
even if they don't succeed they are bound to realize they are missing something...?

[Ninja_Prawn]

As much as un-metagaming (roll to see if the characters think of something the players have missed) is fun and sometimes sensible, something else leaps out at me here.

All of the alternative methods you imagined they might use seem like they would be either illegal or morally questionable. If the party is heavy on LG-leaning characters, it is unlikely that they'd propose or endorse those options. You might have to think of a few more above-board options and shine a few spotlights on them.

"Oh, Mr. Nobleman McSorcerer, you just remembered that your friend, Baron Loadsamoney, lives in Silverymoon. Perhaps you could get him to talk to the gatewarden for you?"

[Oramac]

If you don't mind out-of-character talking, maybe challenge the players to use all of the different skills in one session.

That way you get them looking at all the different options without actually telling them which option is "best". There's only 18 skills, so using all of them in one session shouldn't be too tough.

[YCombinator]

All of the alternative methods you imagined they might use seem like they would be either illegal or morally questionable. If the party is heavy on LG-leaning characters, it is unlikely that they'd propose or endorse those options. You might have to think of a few more above-board options and shine a few spotlights on them.

"Oh, Mr. Nobleman McSorcerer, you just remembered that your friend, Baron Loadsamoney, lives in Silverymoon. Perhaps you could get him to talk to the gatewarden for you?"

This is a very strong point. I myself, have only really thought of illegal options. That does not mean that I won't give a lot of backing to a legal idea that they have thought of, mind you. And these players are all pretty lawful good just in terms of the players. Forget the character alignments. These people are just not very mischievous. I'm hoping to give them ethical dilemmas in this campaign that will pit good vs. good.

But the fact that I can't really think of any really lawful alternatives to the puzzle easily might be a bad sign and I should consider providing some.

[Ninja_Prawn]

And these players are all pretty lawful good just in terms of the players. Forget the character alignments. These people are just not very mischievous.

I was going to suggest that (as part of the problem) but then I thought 'nah! Good people don't exist in real life you silly goose!'

But yeah. It often seems that LG-ness and creativity don't go together in the same person. It may well be necessary to throw a few of your own ideas in there to get them started.

[Temperjoke]

Did the players ask if there was a way to prove themselves? Have they seen other people fleeing to the city? I mean, if war is swiftly approaching, there should be other refugees seeking sanctuary in the city, or at least, a camp of other people who have tried to get in and been rejected. If they try again and are rebuffed, maybe the guard will have some sympathy given the circumstances, and make a suggestion for them? The last one could have just been having a bad day, I mean, he could have caught his wife cheating on him combined with an invading army.

[Gtdead]

I think that when players don't take their survival seriously, they need a huge scare. Use them literally as target practice for thugs, monsters, scout parties. Im a fan of using an impossible combat encounter early on to set the mood. Low level pcs should be runners, not fighters. They should actively try to avoid any possible situation that forces them to fight.

If you don't want to go that route, you need to talk to them and explain that they have to be persistent or they will get dead fast. The world is dangerous, and being outside of the gates with an incoming army is a death sentence. They will need to flee or find a way to get into the city before that happens.

Also don't bother with lawful ways to get them into the city other than "I can kill monsters for you if you let me in" which seems kind of weak since that wouldn't change the possibilty of them being spies. You said that they just escaped prison. They should at least be able to consider the grey areas.

[Blacky the Blackball]

You must go to the city for protection.


I intended for it to be very difficult so that the real challenge for the evening what how to get in.


I wanted the plot to develop.

Okay, so it sounds like you desperately want the players to be in the city while it's under attack by the drow because it's essential for your "plot" to progress.

But it also sounds like the players don't see getting into the city as a life-or-death thing that they need to do by any means possible.

This all sounds perfectly reasonable to me. After all, your players don't know what your "plot" is. They're just roleplaying in the situation they find themselves in.

I think the solution would be for you to stop trying to force your plot on them and just see where/how things go. Your frustration that they're not trying to enter the city like you planned for them to do is entirely of your own making. There's no onus on them to be telepathic and to know that this was the "challenge" that you had planned for the evening. For all they know the rebuff by the gate guards is a sign that they shouldn't be trying to enter the city and they should keep moving.


I have several outs planned for this in case the party does nothing.

1) Their are members of the Zhentarim (black network) or thieves guild that the party finds actually sneaking out. They can approach the group for help getting in.

2) They decide to wait and camp out since all other plans have failed. The drow army attacks. An absolutely deadly encounter of drow comes. They heroes defend themselves. The city needs to also defend itself. The party, caught outside the gate are helped into the city once the guards realize how useful they are and how they are clearly not spies.


How about...

3) The PCs see the drow army coming from quite a distance away (powerful magic aside, armies aren't exactly stealthy). Then you leave it up to them how they react to this.

Do they try again to get into the city before the amy arrives (it's possible)?
Do they try to fight the army outside the city walls (that sounds suicidal to me)?
Do they retreat, confident that the army will stop at the city and they will have plenty of time to travel further and get away from it (it's probably what I would do)?
Do they try to find somewhere to hide, thinking they can maybe sneak out and sabotage the army while it beseiges the city (unlikely, but you never know)?
Do they come up with something completely different that neither you nor I have thought of (almost certainly)?

And then you can base what happens next on what they do, rather than trying to work out a way to persuade them to enter the city for the sake of your "plot".



I feel like if I were to make any of these suggestions it would feel like playing the characters for them, more railroading, and also once the DM says "Hey have you considered investigation for secret doors?" you pretty much know that's possible and you will just search and search until you find it and you'll assume that *the* answer and that you've just been given the answer.

I feel that you've already crossed that line. You've decided that *the* answer is for them to enter the city, and you're trying to find ways to give them that answer. But they might want to do something completely different.


Any suggestions on how to push? More NPC hand holding and giving answers? More pointing out their characters abilities? Just make the persuasion check at east gate magically succeed?

Rather than suggest how to push, I suggest you stop pushing. Stop trying to make them to do what you planned and roll with whatever they do instead.

[YCombinator]

Okay, so it sounds like you desperately want the players to be in the city while it's under attack by the drow because it's essential for your "plot" to progress.

But it also sounds like the players don't see getting into the city as a life-or-death thing that they need to do by any means possible.

This all sounds perfectly reasonable to me. After all, your players don't know what your "plot" is. They're just roleplaying in the situation they find themselves in.

I think the solution would be for you to stop trying to force your plot on them and just see where/how things go. Your frustration that they're not trying to enter the city like you planned for them to do is entirely of your own making. There's no onus on them to be telepathic and to know that this was the "challenge" that you had planned for the evening. For all they know the rebuff by the gate guards is a sign that they shouldn't be trying to enter the city and they should keep moving.




This is rather unfair. I'm an extremely not railroaded DM. I do not have a problem with them not going into the city. They have decided they want to go to the city because the countryside was unsafe. They suggested in character "what about just going to another city" but ultimately ended up agreeing that they'd likely die out there.

My problem is not that they are not doing what I want them to do. My problem is that they are not doing anything. Now I realize that much of this is on me. This is why I'm here asking about it.

I do even have hooks to add in to give them when they fail to do anything, as I've outlined. I'm looking for suggestions for the general case of why to give these options. As I mentioned popping out of the bush and saying "Hey I'll lead you in!" is an option. I worry that this sets a somewhat troubling president that you can just always try the naive solution "in this case ask to be let it." and if that fails, talk out of character for a long time about a lot of good options that you never actually agree to do and then the DM will give you an NPC that shows you the solution.

I am looking for ways to hint or nudge without taking away player agency. I think an NPC that drops hints. "Oh there actually was a secret way in" is classing a good but I worry that it's a little too tipping my hand if I always do that.

[Alerad]

Hey everyone,
We're a very talky group, I should say. People tend to discuss the optimal strategy at great length. I might consider trying to push things away from out of character discussion since that can make things drone on. But really, we're having fun with that. But I think the players might have been a bit frustrated after the second persuasion check failed.


That. Last time my players captured a Spined devil and questioned it for an hour (one of them speaks Infernal). After the devil started telling them that devils are vulnerable to silver, garlic and running water some of them got the hint, but it took another 20 minutes to decide what to do with it.


Back to your question.

0. Hinting the players to use their character's abilities is ok, especially for new players. Supposedly their characters have spent much more time honing their skills. Also, don't be afraid to drop hints based on character backgrounds and/or skills. "Those of you trained in History know that Silverymoon is one of the cities that..."

1. The countryside around Silverymoon is dangerous right? Have some Drows attack the party if they stall too much. You can always say some guards from the city saw the battle and would probably be inclined to believe the party's story.

2. Does your city have Clerics or Paladins? If the group continues to insist have one of them cast Zone of Truth and check the party's intentions, that should negate any bad Persuasion rolls.

3. Have a random caravan be attacked by the Drow (similar to 1.) The caravan leader is a citizen of some repute and can vouch for the characters.

4. After the second failed attempt, force them to have a long rest. It's lazier solution, but just say that if they continue the same tactics, the result will likely be the same with the other gates. Their characters discussion translates to several hours in-game.

[krugaan]

If you don't mind out-of-character talking, maybe challenge the players to use all of the different skills in one session.

That way you get them looking at all the different options without actually telling them which option is "best". There's only 18 skills, so using all of them in one session shouldn't be too tough.

This is a genius idea (maybe not in this specific case, but in general).

Starting a new thread on this.

[YCombinator]

If you don't mind out-of-character talking, maybe challenge the players to use all of the different skills in one session.

That way you get them looking at all the different options without actually telling them which option is "best". There's only 18 skills, so using all of them in one session shouldn't be too tough.

Yeah, love it. I could even make a point system that gave them a reward per skill used by the end of the session or something like that. Maybe skills that have not been used in a while grant extra experience when used? I don't know.

[Blacky the Blackball]

This is rather unfair. I'm an extremely not railroaded DM. I do not have a problem with them not going into the city.

My apologies. I misread your attitude.


My problem is not that they are not doing what I want them to do. My problem is that they are not doing anything.

I still think the way to go is to let them see the army approaching, though. That should galvanise them into action one way or another!

[Sigreid]

Have them help repel a small portion of the war band that has been sent to scout the opposition. it gives them the chance to feel like heroes and the guards/mayor a reason to let them in.

[YCombinator]

Have them help repel a small portion of the war band that has been sent to scout the opposition. it gives them the chance to feel like heroes and the guards/mayor a reason to let them in.


My apologies. I misread your attitude.



I still think the way to go is to let them see the army approaching, though. That should galvanise them into action one way or another!

No problem Blacky. Thanks for understanding.

I do think I will do this. It was the plan mentioned in my original post and not only that... it is the one the players have thought of themselves as well. So the players and I both thought of this independently and it's most fitting of their alignments.

I can't exactly stop them from going to a third gate and trying another persuasion role immediately. They need to let some game time pass before an army can come. I can easily push that along.

I think Ninja_Prawn hit the nail on the head of where I most went wrong. I've posed them with a problem where the only lawful good options are to continue to beg. Now, very, very little game time has passed. And I have sneaking in and getting attack as options. Depending on the nature of the NPC guide, they will not care too much about taking them up on sneaking in.

Oramac also has a really great idea with challenging the players to use all of their skills in one session.

I do still think I have one issue with the players though, which is not really knowing what they're capable of. I should perhaps just remind them of their powers but I worry about my reminders of their powers coming off as railroading their answers.

DM: "You come to a man guarding the bridge. He says to you 'None shall pass!'"
Player: "I say please, pretty please. I'd like to roll persuasion."
DM: "Oh no luck. He's not convinced."
Player: "Damn, I plead with him more and give evidence that I'm worthy."
DM: "My NPC you are traveling with asks you 'Hey, don't you have a charm person spell?' "
Player: "Oh duh! I'm so dumb. Um... fine... I cast it."
DM: "That works! He let's you pass."

[Segev]

"None may pass without my permission!"
"Then...may I have your permission?"
"... ... ... ......yes?"

[JakOfAllTirades]

As much as un-metagaming (roll to see if the characters think of something the players have missed) is fun and sometimes sensible, something else leaps out at me here.

All of the alternative methods you imagined they might use seem like they would be either illegal or morally questionable. If the party is heavy on LG-leaning characters, it is unlikely that they'd propose or endorse those options. You might have to think of a few more above-board options and shine a few spotlights on them.

"Oh, Mr. Nobleman McSorcerer, you just remembered that your friend, Baron Loadsamoney, lives in Silverymoon. Perhaps you could get him to talk to the gatewarden for you?"


This! I'd love to DM for a group that doesn't immediately default to the most unethical and/or violent means of problem-solving they can think of. Never mind what I can think of -- they're way out in front of me when it comes to mayhem and murder. You should be thankful to have a campaign full of law-abiding heroes; being a game master for the other kind can scar your very soul.*




*And may also result in mild instances of hyperbole, accompanied by slight use of understatement.

[hymer]

I understand the players perfectly. Even if they aren't nice people, the city they have arrived at is renowned for its mythal, and it's on a war footing. I would certainly expect that trying to sneak or magically force a way in is quite likely to end badly, with capture at best. And if they thought the PCs were spies before, what are they going to think now, when they are caught sneaking and magicking against the city?
Looking for weak spots in the wall sounds really weird to me. Why would there be any, and if there were, why wouldn't they be extra-heavily guarded? If there's an army in the field and enemy spies are expected, why would getting inside against the defenders' wishes be anything other than extremely difficult?

That said, I'd personally prefer a more active approach than your players. Either find some drows and hand them over to the guards, or some similar gesture of good faith, or just move on. If they don't want you in, there are plenty of other places in the Realms to explore.

[Eriol]

I do still think I have one issue with the players though, which is not really knowing what they're capable of. I should perhaps just remind them of their powers but I worry about my reminders of their powers coming off as railroading their answers.

DM: "You come to a man guarding the bridge. He says to you 'None shall pass!'"
Player: "I say please, pretty please. I'd like to roll persuasion."
DM: "Oh no luck. He's not convinced."
Player: "Damn, I plead with him more and give evidence that I'm worthy."
DM: "My NPC you are traveling with asks you 'Hey, don't you have a charm person spell?' "
Player: "Oh duh! I'm so dumb. Um... fine... I cast it."
DM: "That works! He let's you pass."
One option is to not let part 2 happen. Don't let the players determine the skills they will be using. They can determine abilities like Bardic Inspiration or whatever, but not skill checks. By the "classic" mode of playing, the players describe what they'd like to do, and the DM determines the roll. So when they say they want to persuade the guard, you can then say "well, what does your character say?" They say something, and THEN you say "Well, please roll Persuasion" or "roll Intimidation". The first time that they are forced to roll not what they expected to roll will get them to think about how their skills work, e.g. The PC says "let me in or I'll kill you" is clearly Intimidation not Persuasion, even if Persuasion is higher. The DM determines if looking around the room is Investigation or Perception (or maybe whichever is higher/lower). So this is something you may want to consider changing your style on.

To give a good example of this, if you have the 1st OOTS book, this is what Elan does with the Diplomacy check vs the goblins, and the severe break with supposed reality. This is what you don't want, so in a game, the players have to say what they are DOING, and the DM determines which skills govern it.

On the flip side, if they are REALLY in-character (and/or have a great argument), maybe they get advantage on the check! Or if it's just "let me in, please?" they might be stuck with disadvantage. Or to be even more evil, the DM can say in-character from the guard "I think your argument has some merit, but please go on." Then they'll really sweat at what to say. All of this prior to a roll. You can make the players feel like THEY are the ones trying to get in, not just their characters. And then when they roll, even if it's bad, you can say they passed because the way they acted was good. Or maybe don't even make them roll if they're that convincing. You're more in control, and they feel like they're more in control too.

So that's just general DM advice, that impacts this situation happening at all. You might find that your characters are very persuasive if they actually have to say things out loud. Or can find an amazing number of things if they describe how they check out the sewer outlet from the town, and not just "I use perception on the walls to look for a way in." They can often give YOU ideas you can just run with, and they will compliment you on having a rich environment, when really they had the idea in the first place!



Back on topic though, I like the "everybody roll INT to see if your characters have an idea" thought though to get them through the dearth of ideas.

[Orion3T]

I'm quite new to tabletop DMing and had a similar problem last night during Chapter 2 of HotDQ. The party had captured someone and were trying to get information from him, then both rolled terribly on their intimidate checks and basically ran out of options. I suggested they could leave him to sweat for a bit but it would cost them another half an hour (unbeknown to them the camp they are looking for gets harder to enter at the end of that day) but they kinda dismissed that idea.

They had a few ideas but just struggled to pick one and get on with it, despite my hints that they should just run with it. I think it's mostly just inexperience as it was only my wife's 2nd session, probably not helped by her being very much NOT in favour of torture etc.

FWIW they pretended to leave, she Whild Shaped into a wolf and returned snarling and stalking him, he called for help and the others agreed to protect him from the wolf only if he talked. So they did come up with an imaginative solution, it's just a shame it took them as long as it did!

That article on pacing looks interesting, I will definitely check it out.

[Joe the Rat]

"None may pass without my permission!"
"Then...may I have your permission?"
"... ... ... ......yes?"

It's not what you roll, it's what you say.

What did the players say they were doing to persuade?

The city is on lockdown. They've seen a lot of Drow. They may have seen something escaping, or amongst the roving dark elves that is of importance to those in charge (even if it's just "There's a crap-ton of drow out there!"). Did they offer this up? "Knowledge of matters of strategic importance regarding the invading army" is usually enough for a second pass, or even "in the gate, locked down until this can be verified" - half the job is done.

[Oramac]

Yeah, love it. I could even make a point system that gave them a reward per skill used by the end of the session or something like that. Maybe skills that have not been used in a while grant extra experience when used? I don't know.

That could be fun. And it gives the players extra incentive to get creative with skill usage.

Instead of "I tackle the dragon" (athletics), maybe they use "I make a lasso with my rope to lasso the dragon" (athletics to pull it down; maybe acrobatics or sleight of hand to actually get the lasso around its neck?).

[just spitballing here]

[Grod_The_Giant]

I dunno, it sounds like they have a plan. It may not be the fastest or the best, but it's not unreasonable. You're well within your rights to fast-forward a few days (with whatever consequences in terms of camping in the wild that might entail).

Also, on the subject of "forcing" roleplaying: be careful that skills DO come into it. If success at persuasion is primarily because the PLAYER is good at persuasion, it pretty much removes the incentive to train the skill and hurts people like me who aren't very good at taking. "I roll Persuade" isn't good, but allow broader descriptions- "I try to persuade him that we've seen the drow and can be helpful to the army."

[Eriol]

Also, on the subject of "forcing" roleplaying: be careful that skills DO come into it. If success at persuasion is primarily because the PLAYER is good at persuasion, it pretty much removes the incentive to train the skill and hurts people like me who aren't very good at taking. "I roll Persuade" isn't good, but allow broader descriptions- "I try to persuade him that we've seen the drow and can be helpful to the army."
I would agree with that in general. Though I do suggest trying to integrate the roleplaying (players can and will surprise you with how great they can be), I can see this being very group-dependent, and something you need to find the "right place" to play that with your characters. I think I'd encourage my players to go slightly beyond what you said there, but I certainly wouldn't penalize somebody for what you said above. As I mentioned before, it can get to the point of Elan in the prequel-bonus strips from OOTS book 1, and that's what I like to avoid.

[Ninja_Prawn]

but allow broader descriptions- "I try to persuade him that we've seen the drow and can be helpful to the army."

Yeah. And if you feel like they haven't given you enough, you can use the NPCs to get more out of them.

Player: "I try to persuade him that we've seen the drow and can be helpful to the army."
DM: "Okay, the guard asks where you saw the drow and what kinds of skills you have."
Player: "I tell him about what happened in Hovelton, then draw my sword and explain that I am a mighty warrior!"
DM: Roll Strength (Intimidation)
Player: ...8
DM: "Well, we have plenty of 'mighty warriors', but it sounds like you have useful information on the drow. I'll take you to the General."

-or-

Player: ...19!
DM: "Wow, yeah we need more guys like you! I'll get the quartermaster to fix you up some potions; you'll need them on the front lines."

[Vogonjeltz]

We're a very talky group, I should say. People tend to discuss the optimal strategy at great length. I might consider trying to push things away from out of character discussion since that can make things drone on. But really, we're having fun with that. But I think the players might have been a bit frustrated after the second persuasion check failed.

I think you should discuss this with the players before the next session. From the player perspective I could see it like this: They are genuine in their view that they aren't spies, and feel that anything but persuasion would effectively become a black mark against their reputations. i.e. We want to prove that we're not spies, not do something that would make it look like we ARE spies.

Everything you listed: Fighting, Sneaking, Charm Person, Disguise, Bribes!? Those are literally all things that Drow Spies would do, making them entirely out of the question.

I suspect that's their reasoning, but you can confirm that by asking the players why they didn't try those methods instead. It's possible they either ruled them out, or didn't consider them.


I feel like if I were to make any of these suggestions it would feel like playing the characters for them, more railroading, and also once the DM says "Hey have you considered investigation for secret doors?" you pretty much know that's possible and you will just search and search until you find it and you'll assume that *the* answer and that you've just been given the answer.

I would phrase it more like this:

"Hey guys, I noticed you only tried to persuade the guards and failing that, basically gave up on trying other methods for getting into the city. Why is that?"

They might say they didn't think of anything else.
They might say they didn't want to try things they thought of (instead of waiting it out).

From the players perspective, I would also ask you the DM some questions:

Surely we can't be the only people stuck outside right now? What do the guards have to say about that? Are the city leaders seriously just leaving every elf NOT in the city to the mercy of the Drow? (Are the party members all elves?) Where do the guards expect them to go?

[Ronnocius]

2) Arrive at Silverymoon, the guards at Sundbar Gate say "We're at war. The city is on lock down. You're probably spies. Go away"


Just curious, why did the guard dismiss them so easily, besides being for the story. If they are not all elves (even if they were, high elves and wood elves hate dark elves) and have no dark elves in the party, why would anybody think they're spies without interrogating them. I'm not trying to challenge this I am just wondering.

I like the idea of having a merchant caravan be attacked by drow and the party saving it, therefore being allowed in.

[greenstone]

You can prompt the players to another course of action by having the NPCs respond with three-part answers: response, action, opening.

The response is "yes" or "no" to the request. The reason is why the person refused the request. The opening is a clue for another approach that might work.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. If I break orders then I lose my job. I've got a family to feed."

This is a clue that bribery might be an approach that will work.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. My men and I will die before we let anyone through this gate."

This is a clue that there are other gates that might let the player in.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. We've pulled men from the walls to guard all the gates to the city."

This is a clue that the walls are unguarded, so an attempt to climb over might work.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. Officials on city business are the only people that are allowed in or out.

This is a clue that deception might be an approach that will work.

[YCombinator]

This! I'd love to DM for a group that doesn't immediately default to the most unethical and/or violent means of problem-solving they can think of. Never mind what I can think of -- they're way out in front of me when it comes to mayhem and murder. You should be thankful to have a campaign full of law-abiding heroes; being a game master for the other kind can scar your very soul.*




*And may also result in mild instances of hyperbole, accompanied by slight use of understatement.

Oh let me tell you about my group. :) I ran them through a prison escape (wrongful imprisonment by the Drow) as the initial start of the campaign. When they got out I did some encounters in the Underdark as they escaped, just to nail down the point that the Underdark is creepy, weird, and dangerous.

They ran into a Drow suffering from madness. I figured "Oh boy, random race is a Drow and they are already think Drow are evil. Here goes." I gave the Drow a ruby just to toss them so extra rewards. The Drow walked up to them. I acted crazy. Yelling at them for stealing his tree. Screaming in pain. Accusing them of cheating on him. The works. He hit them. Spat on them. Fell down. Threw his flask at them. They just helped him. They felt bad for him. He threw his ruby at them. Then he yelled in pain. My bard knocked him unconscious and they left him. They gave him his ruby back. "Oh, actually put it in his pocket, not his hand, so he doesn't get robbed."

Yeah that's my group.

[RickAllison]

Oh let me tell you about my group. :) I ran them through a prison escape (wrongful imprisonment by the Drow) as the initial start of the campaign. When they got out I did some encounters in the Underdark as they escaped, just to nail down the point that the Underdark is creepy, weird, and dangerous.

They ran into a Drow suffering from madness. I figured "Oh boy, random race is a Drow and they are already think Drow are evil. Here goes." I gave the Drow a ruby just to toss them so extra rewards. The Drow walked up to them. I acted crazy. Yelling at them for stealing his tree. Screaming in pain. Accusing them of cheating on him. The works. He hit them. Spat on them. Fell down. Threw his flask at them. They just helped him. They felt bad for him. He threw his ruby at them. Then he yelled in pain. My bard knocked him unconscious and they left him. They gave him his ruby back. "Oh, actually put it in his pocket, not his hand, so he doesn't get robbed."

Yeah that's my group.

Wow. Love your group. Hold them tight. Give them just enough room to breathe, but don't let them fly away.

Meanwhile, I return to my campaign where I never know just when one of my players will decide to blow some/everything up...

[Segev]

Sounds like you have a group of honest-to-goodness do-gooders. This will make their lives harder. Let the world recognize it. They have the makings of True Heroes, and you should let their reputation grow.

Also? Have that drow show up again. Not as an enemy. Or, if as an enemy, one still clearly only a foe because of his madness. Give the PCs another chance to help him, this time with an actual opportunity to succeed. (i.e., do it when they have more resources or access to the same.)

Players love it when their actions have meaning later on. If they can help and befriend this drow, it could be a great thing for your campaign.

[Argo]

When my players cant decide what to do to advance them towards their chosen goal, I like to give them a quick recap of how ridiculous they're being. Something like:

"Okay guys, let's go back over where we are. The Drow army is coming, and you guys have determined that your best shot at stopping them is to get into Silverymoon and rally the city before they arrive.

When you approached the gates, you were turned away. You tried to use Persuasion on the guards and you failed. So you went to another gate and tried to use Persuasion on the guards and you failed. So that's Persuasion and Persuasion. Then you went and sat in the woods staring longingly at the city and decided there is literally nothing else you can do.

This is a tough situation you guys are in. I mean, you've already tried Persuasion... OH! AND Persuasion. I mean, you guys don't have any other skills or abilities or anything right? You're all just Persuasion-guys?"

[Demonslayer666]

I love your players. That drow would have been peppered with arrows on sight with my players.

As DM, I think it's perfectly fine to point out when an ability would be useful to a player. Especially to a newer player. Players forget what their characters can do (or what magic items they have). It happens quite often at our table. :smallredface:

The story should not come to a halt based on one skill check. Other members of the of the party should help, or make a check on their own. Other more lawful means of entry should be provided to them.

I really like the idea of helping a caravan mentioned by Alerad.

You could also have a sympathetic guard just let them in.

[Mr.Moron]

If you don't mind out-of-character talking, maybe challenge the players to use all of the different skills in one session.

That way you get them looking at all the different options without actually telling them which option is "best". There's only 18 skills, so using all of them in one session shouldn't be too tough.

I find providing incentives works better than simply asking. For example if you're using inspiration or a similar rule hero/action/fate point system you might say "If you use all your skills in 1 session you gain inspiration" or "The first time you use each skill in each session you get 1 action point". Obviously with a caveat that it's each time the skill is used in to solve a problem or as part of active group RP, no points for athletics because you declare your character does 20 jumping jacks after breakfast.

In this way the game play via how bonus points are allotted, directly supports the kind of character behaviour you want - diversity in problem solving.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Then you went and sat in the woods staring longingly at the city

This is worth saying just to have something to post in the 'out of context campaign quotes' thread! :smalltongue:

[Eriol]

This is worth saying just to have something to post in the 'out of context campaign quotes' thread! :smalltongue:
Please point/link me at this thread. I wish to peruse. ;)

[Ninja_Prawn]

Please point/link me at this thread. I wish to peruse. ;)

Latest version is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?464897-Campaign-Quotes-No-Context-Edition-IV-Just-what-Doc-Ordered).

[YCombinator]

Sounds like you have a group of honest-to-goodness do-gooders. This will make their lives harder. Let the world recognize it. They have the makings of True Heroes, and you should let their reputation grow.

Also? Have that drow show up again. Not as an enemy. Or, if as an enemy, one still clearly only a foe because of his madness. Give the PCs another chance to help him, this time with an actual opportunity to succeed. (i.e., do it when they have more resources or access to the same.)

Players love it when their actions have meaning later on. If they can help and befriend this drow, it could be a great thing for your campaign.

I love this idea. I will work that in again. However, it's not the time. They are currently outside the gates of Silverymoon and the army is about to attack. I will, however, give them a redeemable Drow sometime soon. Maybe find a way to get a redeemable Drow to join their party... hmm... they're a no-soldier-left-behind crew even for my NPCs which they go to great person risk to save. It's hard for me to create death tension. But maybe they redeem a Drow who will be killed by his own. Now they protect him. That will make being allowed into the city even harder but they'd probably not ditch him.


Wow. Love your group. Hold them tight. Give them just enough room to breathe, but don't let them fly away.

Meanwhile, I return to my campaign where I never know just when one of my players will decide to blow some/everything up...


I love your players. That drow would have been peppered with arrows on sight with my players.



Yeah I *really* love my crew. Not to be sexist or ageist or anything, but it might be explained that the party is 3 women and 2 men, and everyone is over 25 years old. We have 4 folks that were in theater too so it's pretty role play heavy. I've just been coming here for lots of advice though because they are a harder group to DM for than the classic chaotic neutral, dungeon crawlers looking for gold.

I must say, though, I've gotten really good support from this forum so I'll be coming back after every session to get some hints.

For the record, I think I'm going to go with my original plan, which has been suggested not only by many here, but by the players themselves. The Drow attack, the city watches my heroes defend the city and themselves, and they are rewarded by being let in to the city. The one change I am making is that I will rush this ahead and not be disappointed that the group hasn't really tried much else because I have realized in this thread that there aren't really any great lawful good options other than the two I have ready to go next session, which require me to kick them off.

[Talakeal]

I don't have much advice, just empathy.

I have a similar problem very frequently. My players try a plan, and if it doesn't work they get discouraged and refuse to try any other options and then blame me and my "unwinnable" scenario for being bored.

One time the climactic "final battle" of a long campaign involved the PCs going to stop the villain who was in the middle of a ritual that would "destroy the world". The players barged in, asked the villain very politely to not destroy the world, the villain said "No," and then the PCs just shrugged their shoulders and sat back waiting for the world to end. For some reason the thought of attacking or otherwise forcing the villain to stop never crossed their minds.

I had a long thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474950-Finally-started-my-new-campaign-Where-did-I-go-wrong)about a similar scenario recently.

In short, the players needed an extraordinary means of stopping an invading army that they had no hope of defeating ordinary means. After about 15 minutes of trying to come up with plans to kill the army I flat out told them you aren't going to be able to take them in a fight by yourself, you need to find help or some other extraordinary method of defeating them, at which point they sat around helplessly for an hour until I put on my conductor hat and had an NPC start suggesting things to them.

After the game one of the players flat out told me "When you said my first plan wasn't going to work I felt like I had wasted the 15 minutes I had put into it, and the idea of wasting my time frustrated me so much I just stopped caring about the game and refused to put in anymore effort."

It has always been a frustrating conundrum for my group. They simply can't handle failure, and they give up for various reasons after their first setback. At that point I either let them stew in their failure (in which case I am a "killer DM") or I have an NPC appear to guide them (in which case I am putting them on a "railroad"). Honestly it seems like your players at least have a good attitude about the situation, so that alone should put you in a far better place than I am.

[YCombinator]

I don't have much advice, just empathy.
After the game one of the players flat out told me "When you said my first plan wasn't going to work I felt like I had wasted the 15 minutes I had put into it, and the idea of wasting my time frustrated me so much I just stopped caring about the game and refused to put in anymore effort."


Yeah, we are definitely not there yet. I am trying to prevent myself from getting there. No one has expressed any dissatisfaction or anything yet. The only thing is there were a few "Oh man! Bummer." remarks after the second persuasion and I realized that's all they were going to try to do. Then I realized when I took account of the night that it was an entire session with one easy encounter, and two persuasion rolls and I thought... Hm... this is not an exciting pace. I thought the players would drive pace on this one like the last time I put them in a fairly helpless situation and said "What now?"

[RickAllison]

Yeah, we are definitely not there yet. I am trying to prevent myself from getting there. No one has expressed any dissatisfaction or anything yet. The only thing is there were a few "Oh man! Bummer." remarks after the second persuasion and I realized that's all they were going to try to do. Then I realized when I took account of the night that it was an entire session with one easy encounter, and two persuasion rolls and I thought... Hm... this is not an exciting pace. I thought the players would drive pace on this one like the last time I put them in a fairly helpless situation and said "What now?"

If you ever want to keep up a pace, try throwing some random encounters (not necessarily battles, random NPCs, creatures, anything) at them. You don't have to have an idea of what they can do with it, let your players decide what to do with that information. Someone running from a giant boar could have some lodgings for their saviors, for example. Little plot hooks that keep up the pace and keep the players on their toes.

[YCombinator]

If you ever want to keep up a pace, try throwing some random encounters (not necessarily battles, random NPCs, creatures, anything) at them. You don't have to have an idea of what they can do with it, let your players decide what to do with that information. Someone running from a giant boar could have some lodgings for their saviors, for example. Little plot hooks that keep up the pace and keep the players on their toes.

Yeah, I did that, actually. If you read my OP I introduced them (earlier than I had planned) to one of the factions that will all be important in this campaign. Since they were in the woods, I just gave them two members of the Emerald Enclave. They discussed the issue with the Drow taking over the countryside and how it affected the those who live in the wild. This group will come back later, so it's nice that we spent some time meeting them.

[denthor]

You gave us their intelligence scores at 8 or 9 with the max being a 10. Just out of curiosity what are the alignments if there are a lot Good they may be playing the alignment access of their characters in which case thievery trickery bribery doesn't come to mind. Maybe have a local priest of a good church to text to see if they're G and have the church vouch for them now you have people that can work for and owe a favor .

[YCombinator]

You gave us their intelligence scores at 8 or 9 with the max being a 10. Just out of curiosity what are the alignments if there are a lot Good they may be playing the alignment access of their characters in which case thievery trickery bribery doesn't come to mind. Maybe have a local priest of a good church to text to see if they're G and have the church vouch for them now you have people that can work for and owe a favor .

I don't remember the alignments. To be honest I don't really put any thought into the alignment, traits, ideals, bonds, etc. All of my players write extensive background write ups and their mentality is pretty clear from that. Then their behavior falls out. None of the fluffy from the backgrounds in the PHB are used either. But I do know the sorcerer is chaotic good, officially. The Paladin is Lawful good. I know all of them are good.

This situation, however, is mostly a player characteristic though. The players are all super, super good. They won't hurt anyone that didn't have it coming, physically, economically, or otherwise. I think if a band of thieves robbed them and they would opt to do non-lethal damage and they would turn the loot they found on them over to the police of the town. Not even joking that's my guess of what they'd do. Which is totally fine, this campaign supports that.

[RickAllison]

I don't remember the alignments. To be honest I don't really put any thought into the alignment, traits, ideals, bonds, etc. All of my players write extensive background write ups and their mentality is pretty clear from that. Then their behavior falls out. None of the fluffy from the backgrounds in the PHB are used either. But I do know the sorcerer is chaotic good, officially. The Paladin is Lawful good. I know all of them are good.

This situation, however, is mostly a player characteristic though. The players are all super, super good. They won't hurt anyone that didn't have it coming, physically, economically, or otherwise. I think if a band of thieves robbed them and they would opt to do non-lethal damage and they would turn the loot they found on them over to the police of the town. Not even joking that's my guess of what they'd do. Which is totally fine, this campaign supports that.

I feel like they need a Joker-like recurring enemy, or someone like Belkar. They don't feel the need to kill or maim the players, the villain wants to break them, to have them make the jump to where they risk being the monsters they fight. A villain who wins when he is handed his ultimate defeat, for at that point he has driven them to kill.

[BurgerBeast]

You can prompt the players...

A thousand times this. No matter how obvious we as GMs think the strategies are, you have to give repeated, obvious hints that options are available.

I think that before you plan the guard encounter, you should have three-or-four strategies in mind for how they might get past the challenge (which is exactly what you have done), and then shamelessly plant hints for each method. greenstone gives great examples. Playing off of an Angry GM article I quite liked, try to give three or more buttons or levers that the players can "pull/press" to get more information. They don't need to be physical things, just triggers. So as the players approach the city you might mention the "high walls constructed of piled stone" (to suggest they can be scaled), or you might even have a crowd outside the gates, and as the PCs try to persuade their way in, they notice that even as one of the guards steps forward and announces to the whole crowd that "no one will be allowed to enter, the city is strained enough," another guard allows two people to enter quickly and quietly (to suggest that bribery might be possible).

On top of this, as weird as it sounds, it is often extremely useful to simply and blandly state the PCs' goals to them: "So, you are stranded outside the city. Your goal is to get into the city."

[denthor]

I don't remember the alignments. To be honest I don't really put any thought into the alignment, traits, ideals, bonds, etc. All of my players write extensive background write ups and their mentality is pretty clear from that. Then their behavior falls out. None of the fluffy from the backgrounds in the PHB are used either. But I do know the sorcerer is chaotic good, officially. The Paladin is Lawful good. I know all of them are good.

This situation, however, is mostly a player characteristic though. The players are all super, super good. They won't hurt anyone that didn't have it coming, physically, economically, or otherwise. I think if a band of thieves robbed them and they would opt to do non-lethal damage and they would turn the loot they found on them over to the police of the town. Not even joking that's my guess of what they'd do. Which is totally fine, this campaign supports that.

As I thought you have a paladin lawful good therefore trickery bribery threats these things are off the table with your group. The Paladin if he knows about any of the above would be honor-bound to make retribution or restitution or both. You may not put much into alignment but your players are. I still think the best way for you to get them inside is to have the guards communicate. And have someone on the inside come out verify their alignment it is a first-level spell. This allows them to work and still keep their Good alignments

[RickAllison]

As I thought you have a paladin lawful good therefore trickery bribery threats these things are off the table with your group. The Paladin if he knows about any of the above would be honor-bound to make retribution or restitution or both. You may not put much into alignment but your players are. I still think the best way for you to get them inside is to have the guards communicate. And have someone on the inside come out verify their alignment it is a first-level spell. This allows them to work and still keep their Good alignments

Detect Evil and Good doesn't work like that:


For the duration, you know if there is an aberration,
celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, or undead within 30
feet o f you, as well as where the creature is located.
Similarly, you know if there is a place or object within
30 feet o f you that has been magically consecrated
or desecrated.

So if the party fits one of those, they will be detected. The only ability that actually tells you the alignment of a creature belongs to the humble Sprite.

[infinitum3d]

Not that this is necessarily a problem, but my party's intelligence scores are [-1, 0, 1, -1, -1]

I could just not make those rolls since if you're even going to fudge a roll you should just not make it. So maybe I just tell them that something dawns on them?

You can use Wisdom for a Perception check if intelligence scores are too low. Did they get a Charisma bonus?

Then again, if the intelligence scores are too low, maybe they characters aren't smart enough to try anything but persuasion.

Keep it in character. If they keep trying the same thing and failing, eventually they'll have to try something else or everyone will get bored.

Just out of curiosity, are these inexperienced players? If so, go ahead and give them hints. It won't hurt things and they'll learn from it.

[YCombinator]

Just out of curiosity, are these inexperienced players? If so, go ahead and give them hints. It won't hurt things and they'll learn from it.

Two totally new players, two very experienced players, and one who's been playing for a little less than a year.


I feel like they need a Joker-like recurring enemy, or someone like Belkar. They don't feel the need to kill or maim the players, the villain wants to break them, to have them make the jump to where they risk being the monsters they fight. A villain who wins when he is handed his ultimate defeat, for at that point he has driven them to kill.

Yeah that sounds like a lot of fun. I do like Joker-style villains. To be fair, when their lives are clearly threatened, or they are wrongfully captured, they don't have a problem killing. They killed the guards at the prison as well as a ban of warriors that attacked them and shot first. But there's a lot to be gained from pitting them against a lunatic that wants to mess with them. Any suggestions? For encounters with this villain or plots points?

[denthor]

Detect Evil and Good doesn't work like that:



So if the party fits one of those, they will be detected. The only ability that actually tells you the alignment of a creature belongs to the humble Sprite.

I did not catch which edition they are playing but in 3.5

first round you sense the presence of evil.

second round number of evil auras in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present. If you are good alignment and the strongest evil aura's power is overwhelming and HD or levl of the aura' source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.

That is from page 218 of the players handbook Detect Evil

Why could a cleric not cast detect evil law chaos or good and know in two rounds?

[RickAllison]

I did not catch which edition they are playing but in 3.5

first round you sense the presence of evil.

second round number of evil auras in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present. If you are good alignment and the strongest evil aura's power is overwhelming and HD or levl of the aura' source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.

That is from page 218 of the players handbook Detect Evil

Why could a cleric not cast detect evil law chaos or good and know in two rounds?

This is the 5th edition forum. Thus, the assumption is that they are playing 5th edition. If we were discussing 3.5, there is a separate forum for that. Detect Evil and Good does exactly what I quoted earlier, specifically because that is the text of the spell.

[YCombinator]

This is the 5th edition forum. Thus, the assumption is that they are playing 5th edition.

Shoot, my bad. My players are actually playing Candy Land. Sorry I didn't make that clear at the beginning.

[RickAllison]

Shoot, my bad. My players are actually playing Candy Land. Sorry I didn't make that clear at the beginning.

If you toss in a Joker-style villain into Candy Land, I will bake cookies for you.

"You land in the gumdrop sea. Ahead, you see a rising figure: a wave of grape juice that Mr. Sweettooth is surfing! You look behind you and see a fence with a vicious wall of candy cane spikes leveled at you. Dex save against minty implement, then a Con save to hold your breath in the wave."

[Talakeal]

If you toss in a Joker-style villain into Candy Land, I will bake cookies for you.

"You land in the gumdrop sea. Ahead, you see a rising figure: a wave of grape juice that Mr. Sweettooth is surfing! You look behind you and see a fence with a vicious wall of candy cane spikes leveled at you. Dex save against minty implement, then a Con save to hold your breath in the wave."


What's going on in this candy-coated heart of darkness? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TfEqEWhl7w)

[infinitum3d]

You can prompt the players to another course of action by having the NPCs respond with three-part answers: response, action, opening.

The response is "yes" or "no" to the request. The reason is why the person refused the request. The opening is a clue for another approach that might work.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. If I break orders then I lose my job. I've got a family to feed."

This is a clue that bribery might be an approach that will work.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. My men and I will die before we let anyone through this gate."

This is a clue that there are other gates that might let the player in.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. We've pulled men from the walls to guard all the gates to the city."

This is a clue that the walls are unguarded, so an attempt to climb over might work.

For example:
"I can't let you into the city, sir, it's locked down because of plague, High Priests orders. Officials on city business are the only people that are allowed in or out.

This is a clue that deception might be an approach that will work.

Love love LOVE this post! These are great ideas! Thank you!