Void Disciple help

[Andorn]

This 13-level (!!! I know, right???) PrC from Oriental Adventures starts out as a cool-sounding divinatory class, but then it gets really weird, with class abilities to gain rerolls, or force them on your opponents, and a capstone of giving negative levels, abilities that have nothing to do with the fluff or the entry level scrying ability.

Anyone out there have a homebrew variant that makes sense and is cool?

[Wacky89]

it was updated in Complete Divine

[Amphetryon]

Some have labelled the CDiv version and its predecessor 'trap' options due to loss of Caster level.

The Tier System for PrCs threads I've seen list Void Disciple as a +2 Tier option (which is double-plus good), largely due to the following:

3) Void Suppression. No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there. Requires a melee touch attack. Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.

2) Moment of Clarity. Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds. Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.

1) Sense Void. Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check. This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that? Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state? Can you move around? How long does it last? Does it count as a divination effect? What can block it? RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries. Illusions work, though.

In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids.


Conclusion: Void Disciple loses enough spell levels that it could be underpowered, depending on how Sense Void is ruled to work. RAW is vague enough that most of the overpowered potential is based purely on the lack of defined limits. I've personally seen this thing break campaigns though, and I wouldn't recommend it for general PC use. Game-breaking Up Two to a barely passable Down One, depending on how Sense Void is used.

TL;DR: You need to work out just how Sense Void is supposed to function in a campaign, with your DM. Method of entry will almost assuredly influence its utility.

[Andorn]

it was updated in Complete Divine

Not much of an update, it's all the same class abilities, with 13 PrC levels, it is nonsensical.

What I'd like is a class where the abilities are related to each other, giving finer insight into the reality of the world, and ability to affect it on a physical level.

[mabriss lethe]

I can at least explain where some of the weirdness comes from (though not the 13 level bit.) They were trying to shoehorn the abilities of L5R's Ishiken (void shugenja) into a d20 formatted prestige class. Its abilities attempt to mimic iconic void spells(which were pretty wonky in their own environment) in the d10 version of L5R without creating another "school" of spells. That's why it sort of runs all over the place. It would be like expecting coherence from a class that mimicked a handful of iconic spells from say, the abjuration school. You could counter magic and turn into stone and mess with doors along with a few other odds and ends which don't exactly fit with a coherent theme out of a very strict context. (counterspell, stoneskin, hold portal/arcane lock respectively)

[Andorn]

Well, a coherent theme would be using void sense to penetrate the structure of matter, and being able to manipulate it. That would be pretty cool. You could sense the internal structure of a lock or trap, for example, and it would show you how to disarm it. At higher levels you could use a telekinetic aspect of void sense to break the trap or open the lock.

So, it's similar to psionics, but your sense of the world is based on the supernatural rather than mental, giving access to the empty space in the world, and all matter.

I like it, because it kind of blurs the line between the supernatural power of magic, the abilities of the mind, and physical reality itself. That's a nifty parallel to the theme of the class in the first place, giving power over the spaces in between things.

[Zaq]

It's a real odd duck, that's for sure. As has been mentioned, Sense Void is potentially gamebreaking. It lets you see "whatever area, person, or thing" you like. Want to peek at the BBEG's inner sanctum? Cool. Need to know where the One Ring is? No problem. The prince has been kidnapped and you need to know if he's still alive and who's got him? That's a thing you can do. The lich's phylactery is somewhere? Oh, it's right over there. And so on.

Its other abilities range from underpowered (Void Strike, which is like the 4th level spell Enervation but worse because it requires a melee touch attack instead of a ranged touch attack, is gained at PrC level 13, so almost certainly ECL 20. And it's once per day) to niche as hell (Void Release is fundamental to at least one version of Pun-Pun's infinite stat loop, but if you're not doing infinite loops with it, it's . . . just kind of a weird little bonus?) to crazy overpowered (Moment of Clarity gives ANY feat. They said the A word. Epic feats, anyone?). And, as others have stated, it loses 5 caster levels over 13 PrC levels (assuming you take all 13 levels), which is not a small cost by any stretch.

Basically, if you get to use its crazier abilities to do crazy things, it can be pretty broken. It's broken in a very different way from Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix, but Sense Void is still a campaign-smasher if the player is clever and/or if the GM is careless. If you don't get to use its crazy tricks, the opportunity cost is massive (5 CL lost is huge; even in a relatively low-op game, a caster who loses 5 CL is still going to kind of struggle to put level-appropriate effects in play on a regular basis), and you'll probably end up kind of underpowered and disappointed. I don't really know what to make of it. If I were GMing (which I'm not planning to do anytime soon), I'd strongly discourage a player from taking it (I wouldn't automatically ban it, though to be honest, I'd consider it), but that's just me.

[OttoVonBigby]

As DM, here is what I ruled concerning the functioning of Sense Void. Pretty sure some of this contradicts what's in Complete Divine.

A void disciple using this ability separates her body from her consciousness—an incorporeal and almost completely undetectable essence physically resembling the character. The body is considered helpless throughout the duration of Sense Void; it remains motionless in the meditative position adopted by the void disciple to commence sensing the void.

Requirements: Familiarity is not a factor for the void disciple to be able to sense void, but the void disciple can only perceive a specific area, person, or thing. For example, a void disciple attempting to determine who stole the king's horse cannot use Sense Void to detect "whoever took the king's horse." The void disciple can potentially detect that particular horse (assuming it is within 1000 miles), but can then only surmise with her own reasoning whether any persons near the horse are the thief. (However, thereafter, the void disciple can use Sense Void to "follow" any individuals she previously sensed in the horse's vicinity.)

Usage: Activating the Sense Void ability takes one minute; this preparation time can be halved with a DC 25 Concentration check (add the character's total void disciple levels as a bonus to this Concentration check). During this minute, the void disciple is "detaching" her consciousness from her body's location, and when the activation period ends, her consciousness has rematerialized elsewhere; no form of mental "travel" between two points has taken place. Ending the Sense Void effect is a standard action requiring only a small effort of will.

A new use of the ability is required each time a void disciple changes her focus to a new area, person, or thing. For example, a void disciple sensing the bottom of a distant stairwell may "look" up to its uppermost landing, but must make a new Spellcraft check to relocate her focus to the landing itself. The exception to this rule is if no distance is involved in the shift, e.g. focusing on the staircase, then on a person walking up it; the void disciple's consciousness can "piggyback" along with moving persons or moving things, but not along a stationary object (like a staircase).

Duration: A void disciple can sense void for as long as she wishes, but is unable to detect her body's state while using the ability. Hunger, thirst, and damage affect the body normally without the void disciple's awareness until she terminates the sensing. Being killed while using Sense Void in no way impairs the void disciple's soul from entering the afterlife (one's consciousness is distinct from one's soul).

Nonphysical Senses: The at-will spell-like abilities described under "Sense Void" on page 73 of Complete Divine function only through the Sense Void ability; it must be active before the at-will spell-like abilities are attempted, and the detections function only where the void disciple's consciousness is projected at that time.

Using Other Abilities Simultaneously: Because the void disciple's consciousness actually departs her body, she is unable to cast spells with components either through the "sensor" or centered on her body (apart from the at-will spell-like abilities listed on page 73 of Complete Divine). Purely mental actions can be undertaken by a void disciple while sensing void.

Blocking: The Sense Void ability is less similar to scrying than it appears; significantly, it is not a divination. An antimagic field blocks Sense Void as it does other supernatural abilities; mage's private sanctum does not. Mind blank has no effect on it; however, an invisibility spell can effectively conceal a target from Sense Void, since the ability uses the void disciple's natural senses.

Detecting: Effects like see invisibility cannot be used to detect a void disciple's consciousness; it is not invisible so much as barely-existent. Multiple void disciples who happen to be using this ability to perceive the same area, person, or thing can perceive one another's consciousness, discern their owners' physical appearances, and use any other applicable abilities (such as a void disciple's 5th, 9th, and 13th-level at-will spell-like abilities) upon the other void disciple(s) if they continue to maintain their consciousness in the same area. However, as noted in "Usage" above, a void disciple's consciousness cannot move of its own volition, so multiple void disciples sensing the same place cannot use upon one another any abilities that require movement, e.g. somatic components. This also means they cannot speak to one another.

Distance / DC
Line of sight 5
Up to 1 mile (same village) 10
Up to 10 miles (same province) 15
Up to 100 miles (same clan's territory) 20
Up to 1,000 miles (another clan's territory) 25
Up to 5,000 miles (another continent) 50
Up to 20,000 miles (same planet) 85
Up to 2,000,000 miles (nearby world) 145
∞ miles (same plane) 300

[Andorn]

I think I may extend the Void Incarnate epic PrC to 20 levels. The first 10 levels allow you to reach a place of stillness, blankness. This lets you hear the world, so at level 11 you get the Sense Void ability. From there, you learn to manipulate the world through it. You can use psionics, supernatural abilities, or spell-like abilities that have no casting components (like stilled/silent SLAs).

Think of it as astral projection. I think a person who is out of their body should be detectible, somehow, and if detected should be vulnerable to mental attacks, either via spell or psionic attack modes.