Full Casting Sorcerer PrCs?

[magicalmagicman]

I need some recommendations or else I'm gonna end up with 15sorcerer 5 archmage XD.

Facts:
1. NO SPELLCASTING LOSS. This means no PrCs that results in a loss spellcasting level, and no PrCs that requires a dip that results in a spellcasting loss (like spellsword). This is non-negotiable, so no malconvoker.
2. This is a BFC sorcerer, as in virtually no metamagic or direct damage spells. Levels 10+ she revolves around planar binding, and all her spells will be buffs/debuffs/BFC.
3. I plan on meleeing somewhat from levels 1-9. BFC first, then melee with reach (enlarge person, reach weapon, polymorph, or a combination of these) once there isn't much to do.

PrCs considered
1. Archmage - NECESSITY! Gets rid of spell foci! This is a huge thing for me. I only need 3 levels of it though (Shapechange, Contingency, Greater Teleport (for escaping without using hands))
2. Abjurant Champion - Need to be level 10 to grab it. Might not be worth it by then since at this point the difference in melee-ability with a real fighter would be astronomical but still, d10 hit die, swift abjuration spells (dispel magic! Prismatic Wall as SWIFT ACTION), and the various bonuses for 1 round alone might make it worth it. If no one else suggests anything I will probably end up as 10 sorcerer/5 abjurant champion/ 5 archmage.
3. Incantatrix - No. Not only is it OP as hell, but I am feat starved to grab metamagics.
4. Thaumaturgist - No real benefit with my build.
5. Escalation Mage - No feat tax, and no downside so awesome! Roleplay aspect however might be troublesome...

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you can afford to pick up planar ally as a spell known (probably cost you one feat) then thaumaturgist could be a nice.

Why are you so adamantly against giving up even one level of casting? Some PrC's are well worth the sacrifice, ya know.

[magicalmagicman]

If you can afford to pick up planar ally as a spell known (probably cost you one feat) then thaumaturgist could be a nice.

Why are you so adamantly against giving up even one level of casting? Some PrC's are well worth the sacrifice, ya know.

My joy in this game comes from planar binding. It is already killing me inside that I am 1 level behind wizards, it's killing me even more inside that I need to be level 11 to do a combo I want where as wizards can do it at level 9. So I am already 2 levels behind on what I want to do compared to a wizard and any further delays will just butcher me. If you haven't read my other thread the combo I am talking about is using fabricate or wall of stone to create a colossal/gargantuan/huge statue(s) and using a ravid to perpetually animate it. After doing the math, scrolls are too expensive to create said statues.

In my current games it takes 2-3 weeks to gain one level (1 session a week) and we are starting at level 4.

I agree that the PrCs are well worth the sacrifice but not for what I want :)

[Bobby Baratheon]

Escalation Mage could be good for you. It can mimic metamagic without feat investment, and you really have nothing to lose by taking one level. You get 1+Cha hit points at first level, so if you've got nothing else that grabs your fancy you can pad your hp out a bit. Abjurant Champion is good for anyone.

[magicalmagicman]

Escalation Mage is a nice suggestion! Roleplay stuff however interfere with it. I'll think about it.

[Troacctid]

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12lvJTKNf1QjNDK4IEX2JBxwnlM476NFLaUkb2K-C5o4/edit?usp=sharing) is a useful spreadsheet that may help you. It's a fairly complete listing of prestige classes that advance spellcasting, including their casting progression, BAB, skill points, entry level, and the type(s) of casting they progress.

[magicalmagicman]

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12lvJTKNf1QjNDK4IEX2JBxwnlM476NFLaUkb2K-C5o4/edit?usp=sharing) is a useful spreadsheet that may help you. It's a fairly complete listing of prestige classes that advance spellcasting, including their casting progression, BAB, skill points, entry level, and the type(s) of casting they progress.

Wow! Thanks! That is... comprehensive. Still though, recommendations would be nice :)

Off-topic, do you have a spread sheet of monsters? I want to simply search outsiders by HD and sourcebook, but google has failed me...

[Troacctid]

Wow! Thanks! That is... comprehensive. Still though, recommendations would be nice :)
Some of my personal favorites that a Sorcerer could access include Sentinel of Bharrai (chassis upgrade + polymorph into a bear at will), Halfling Whistler (chassis upgrade + awesome wind powers), Urban Savant (chassis upgrade + ultimate know-it-all), and Fiend-Blooded (ability score boosts and extra spells). Honorable mention to Ruathar, which is very boring, but provides marginal benefits and useful class skills.


Off-topic, do you have a spread sheet of monsters? I want to simply search outsiders by HD and sourcebook, but google has failed me...
Not a spreadsheet, but I did find this (http://www.mithrilcircle.com/Chells/RPG/DD_Guides/DnD3.5Index-Monsters-byHD.pdf) a while ago.

[DrMartin]

Unseen seer is a lot of fun.

Maybe Sacred exorcist? Don't know of it's worth the feat investment if you're going with abjurant champion from lvl10, since you can get in no earlier than level 8 and it requires two feats (arcane disciple: exorcism to get dismissal, and education to get the required knowledge skills), but is otherwise a solid prc with a decent chassis (d8hp, medium bab, sadly poor fort save). If you plan on using planar binding a lot, its abilities can help if things go awry

I personally like paragnostic apostle, doesn't do much for your meele prowess, but the abilities it grants can be nice, and has some more skill points than most caster PRC.

Ruathar is at the very least better than straight sorcerer and has virtually no pre requisites, except the fluff. Only thing you lose is your familiar progression, but if you care about that you may be better off trading away for an AFC and then get back through a feat since you plan on prc-ing heavily

[Kelb_Panthera]

My joy in this game comes from planar binding. It is already killing me inside that I am 1 level behind wizards, it's killing me even more inside that I need to be level 11 to do a combo I want where as wizards can do it at level 9. So I am already 2 levels behind on what I want to do compared to a wizard and any further delays will just butcher me. If you haven't read my other thread the combo I am talking about is using fabricate or wall of stone to create a colossal/gargantuan/huge statue(s) and using a ravid to perpetually animate it. After doing the math, scrolls are too expensive to create said statues.

In my current games it takes 2-3 weeks to gain one level (1 session a week) and we are starting at level 4.

I agree that the PrCs are well worth the sacrifice but not for what I want :)

What about runestaves, knowstones, and minor schema? Scrolls are useful but not for something you want to do frequently.

With a knowstone and versatile spellcaster you can get planar binding online -ahead- of a wizard. It'll cost ya but it's worth it when you're centering your sorcerer around that thing.

[DrMartin]

Wow! Thanks! That is... comprehensive. Still though, recommendations would be nice :)

Off-topic, do you have a spread sheet of monsters? I want to simply search outsiders by HD and sourcebook, but google has failed me...

I have one but it contains only monsters from the srd. Also i never updated it to google docs so it's a normal excel file. PM me if interested

[nedz]

Not a spreadsheet, but I did find this (http://www.mithrilcircle.com/Chells/RPG/DD_Guides/DnD3.5Index-Monsters-byHD.pdf) a while ago.

That's a re-rendering of an old Crystal Keep list - which I didn't think we were allowed to provide links to, because: Forum rules. That said Chez did produce several lists of monsters including one with the information the OP is seeking - and no I can't provide a link.

[Khedrac]

4 levels of Fatespinner are full casting (only the last level is not) and, best of all, it only has skill requirements not feat requirements.
If you don't want all 4 levels, Fatespinner 2 is usually what people want from it ("what natural 1? - my friend you didn't roll a natural 1").

[atemu1234]

Incantatrix is good, for obvious reasons, especially if you intend to go blaster. A Gish build could go into Abjurant Champion.

[Morcleon]

Escalation Mage is a nice suggestion! Roleplay stuff however interfere with it. I'll think about it.

You can always refluff it and use whatever flavor you want. :smalltongue:

[magicalmagicman]

What about runestaves, knowstones, and minor schema? Scrolls are useful but not for something you want to do frequently.

With a knowstone and versatile spellcaster you can get planar binding online -ahead- of a wizard. It'll cost ya but it's worth it when you're centering your sorcerer around that thing.

Knowstones are dragon magazine iirc so they are a definite no-go. Runestaves however might be the solution to my problem! Thanks!
And Versatile Spellcaster! OMG! WOWOWOOWWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWW! THAT FEAT IS AMAZING! SOLVES ALL MY PROBLEMS! OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Thanks for the recommendations of PrCs. I think I have enough. A lot of them conflict with my character's fluff or setting, but fatespinner seems promising if I can spare some skill points somewhere.

[ATHATH]

Have you considered the Nar Demonbinder PrC? It seems to be focused around what you're trying to do (expand its list using PrC's and feats like Sandshaper, Necrotic Cyst, and Cerebrosis).

[magicalmagicman]

Holy crap I didn't know fiend blooded added spells known! That decides it, fiend blooded it is.

Just to be clear, I can take levels at level 5 right? When i get the necessary 8 skill points into its prerequisites.

[nyjastul69]

Holy crap I didn't know fiend blooded added spells known! That decides it, fiend blooded it is.

Just to be clear, I can take levels at level 5 right? When i get the necessary 8 skill points into its prerequisites.

An 8 skill point prerequisite means you could take the class at 6th level. The first step in leveling up is choosing a class. Skill points are spent after choosing a class.

[Malimar]

Off-topic, do you have a spread sheet of monsters? I want to simply search outsiders by HD and sourcebook, but google has failed me...

Here's mine (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-c_3A-A27ZjVWEySTNmMTVtMUk). It's from a somewhat esoteric list of sources, including a couple 3rd-party sources and not including quite every 1st-party source, but it's reasonably comprehensive. You can sort and limit by type and HD and sourcebook or whatever if you download and open it in Excel.

[Troacctid]

Holy crap I didn't know fiend blooded added spells known! That decides it, fiend blooded it is.

Just to be clear, I can take levels at level 5 right? When i get the necessary 8 skill points into its prerequisites.

Assuming you can get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill, you can enter as a Sorcerer 5/Fiend-Blooded X.

[atemu1234]

Assuming you can get Knowledge (the planes) as a class skill, you can enter as a Sorcerer 5/Fiend-Blooded X.

I recommend Educated. It's a halfway decent feat.

[Troacctid]

I like Apprentice (Spellcaster) because it combines very well with bloodline feats. Take Fiendish Bloodline, get 9 mediocre spells, and swap them for spells you actually want. For bonus points, ask the DM if Fiendish Bloodline can take the place of Blood Calls to Blood as the prerequisite.

[magicalmagicman]

Are you for real? Since when did sorcerers not have knowledge: planes as a class skill? Good god... every single sorcerer I played is illegal...

God f***ing damn it! This might actually tip the scale into wizard for me. Son of a b****

I highly detest environment dependent stuff, like regional feats or mentors.

I need to rethink my d&d identity... that's fun...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are you for real? Since when did sorcerers not have knowledge: planes as a class skill? Good god... every single sorcerer I played is illegal...

God f***ing damn it! This might actually tip the scale into wizard for me. Son of a b****

I highly detest environment dependent stuff, like regional feats or mentors.

I need to rethink my d&d identity... that's fun...

Planar sorcerer gets know(planes) as a class skill.

[Khedrac]

Keeper of Forbidden Lore (FC1) is a feat which makes Knowledge Planes a class skill (amongst other things). You would probably need to take it at level 1 for Fiend Blooded at level 6 though.

[magicalmagicman]

Keeper of Forbidden Lore (FC1) is a feat which makes Knowledge Planes a class skill (amongst other things). You would probably need to take it at level 1 for Fiend Blooded at level 6 though.

Thank you for this. My build suddenly became incredibly feat intensive.

Because planar sorcerers start at level 5 it complicates things as you can't bank skill points. The 13th level substitution ability seems nice though. Quick question about it: do i have to take a sorcerer level to get it or can I get it while leveling a PrC?

[ATHATH]

By the way, I went on a search through all of the spells with the [Fire] descriptor a while ago, and, not counting spells like Summon Monster that can have many different descriptors, I only found two decent non-blasty (Orb of Fire and the like) spells.

Ghorus Toth's Metal Melt can be used on your enemies' metallic items to disable them, which is nothing new. It is unique, however, in that magic items that are melted can be repaired by someone with the appropriate feat afterwards, allowing you to avoid destroying your loot.

Flashburst was made for one purpose/job, and it does that job very well. It blinds every sighted creature that fails a will save in a 140 ft. radius of a point that you select for 2d8 rounds. If they're 20-140 ft. away, they can automatically avoid the blindness if they don't have line of sight to the origin point of the spell, but creatures within 20 of the origin could put their hands over their eyes and still be blinded.

[magicalmagicman]

By the way, I went on a search through all of the spells with the [Fire] descriptor a while ago, and, not counting spells like Summon Monster that can have many different descriptors, I only found two decent non-blasty (Orb of Fire and the like) spells.

Ghorus Toth's Metal Melt can be used on your enemies' metallic items to disable them, which is nothing new. It is unique, however, in that magic items that are melted can be repaired by someone with the appropriate feat afterwards, allowing you to avoid destroying your loot.

Flashburst was made for one purpose/job, and it does that job very well. It blinds every sighted creature that fails a will save in a 140 ft. radius of a point that you select for 2d8 rounds. If they're 20-140 ft. away, they can automatically avoid the blindness if they don't have line of sight to the origin point of the spell, but creatures within 20 of the origin could put their hands over their eyes and still be blinded.

Flashburst is nice, it's like a super glitterdust. Only problem would be the friendly fire XD.

[BowStreetRunner]

I started putting together a list a while back that covered PrCs you could take in full or dip without sacrificing sorcerer progression. You can see what I came up with here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?294500-The-Improved-Sorcerer).

[Snowbluff]

HOw about Zhentarim Skymage? Lords of Darkness, get a flying pet based on your charisma. :D

[Âmesang]

I need some recommendations or else I'm gonna end up with 15sorcerer 5 archmage XD.
In the event that you are stuck with this, I'd personally suggest Sorcerer 16/Archmage 4 (with Archmage 5 at 21st-level, if possible). It'd give you a final Base Attack Bonus of 10 instead of 9, and a final Base Will Save of 14 instead of 13.

It may not seem like much, but since Epic bonuses are the same regardless of classes taken (and 'cause my character's final High Arcana was going to be "mastery of counterspelling," anyway), I figured this would be more efficient (basically it's like the same stats as a Sorcerer 20 plus Iron Will for free).

Granted, I also like familiars and was playing in a relatively low-power game and I couldn't spare a feat for Obtain Familiar. Not the best advise, but it worked for me and kept things relatively "simple." XÞ

[BowStreetRunner]

With Sorcerer 20 you get 20d4 HD, +10 BAB, +6 FORT/REF and +12 WILL, 46 Skill points, Summon Familiar and 20 levels of casting.

Sorcerer 1-6, Ruathar 1-3, Abjurant Champion 1-5, Sorcerer 7-12 will net you 12d4+3d6+5d10 HD, +13 BAB, +6 FORT, +8 REF and +15 WILL, 52 Skill Points, Summon Familiar and 20 levels of casting, along with Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword, rapier, longbow, or shortbow); word that might make elves friendly; minor magic item; low light vision (or improved low light vision); bonus to search, spot and listen; bonus on attacks and saves under night sky; increased age categories; Add class level to armor and shield bonus of abjuration spells; double duration of abjuration spells; cast low-level abjurations as swift action; and spend unused spell slots for insight bonuses.

[nedz]

Because planar sorcerers start at level 5 it complicates things as you can't bank skill points. The 13th level substitution ability seems nice though. Quick question about it: do i have to take a sorcerer level to get it or can I get it while leveling a PrC?

Substitution levels are class features of the base class. This means that you do not usually get them if you PrC out - though there are a couple of PrCs which are exceptions.

[Anthrowhale]

As an alternative to Sorcerer, you might consider the generic spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster) if that works at your table. You lose access to some sorcerer-specific things but gain feats like a wizard, can choose your class skills, and have access to Cleric and Druid spells as well. Some of the druid spells are excellent for BFC.

[magicalmagicman]

I started putting together a list a while back that covered PrCs you could take in full or dip without sacrificing sorcerer progression. You can see what I came up with here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?294500-The-Improved-Sorcerer).

Thank you very much. This was exactly what I was looking for.