Challenge: Winning a Greater Planar Binding... at ECL1

[Pippin]

I thought of this challenge because it would be funny to see an ECL1 character get favors from an outsider that has access to 9th-level spells.


We'll suppose that you are a Wizard 1 (no specialization) with the following ability scores: Str 8, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 18.
Try to spend as little money as possible. You just bought a scroll of Greater Planar Binding, so that's 3,000 gp spent already.
We'll suppose that the outsider has the following ability scores: Str 20, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26.
That outsider casts spells as a 17th-level cleric or wizard.


Make it happen!

[Deophaun]

Cross-class UMD, 4 skill points for 2 ranks.
Feat: Skill Focus (UMD)
Feat (Human): Magical Aptitude
Feat (Flaw): Iron Will
Feat (Flaw): Hardened Criminal (UMD)

Scroll 1: Share Talents (Bard CL 1, take 10 on UMD check for 22: Success!) (Cast on self and familiar, +2 to UMD) (25 gp)
Scroll 2: Eagle's Splendor (Wizard CL 3, take 10 on UMD check for 24: Success!) (+4 Charisma) (150 gp)
Scroll 3: Divine Insight (Cleric CL 4, take 10 on UMD check for 24: Success!) (+9 insight bonus to single skill or ability check) (200 gp)
Scroll 4: Improvisation (Bard CL 6, take 10 on UMD check for 26: Success!) (+3 luck bonus to skill or ability check) (150 gp)

We now make our check with a +19 Modifier vs a +8. Take 10. Win.

Total spent beyond PB setup: 525

Oh, and you need to include the cost of the magic circle and dimensional anchor.

Edit: Actually, divine insight is skill checks only, so replace with guidance of the avatar and a CL 24 improvisation, which adds another 400 gp total. Take 10 on the UMD check for 46: Success!

[Khedrac]

take 10 on UMD check x4


Special

You cannot take 10 with this skill.
What a waste of money.

[AvatarVecna]

Cross-class UMD, 4 skill points for 2 ranks.
Feat: Skill Focus (UMD)
Feat (Human): Magical Aptitude
Feat (Flaw): Iron Will
Feat (Flaw): Hardened Criminal (UMD)

Scroll 1: Share Talents (Bard CL 1, take 10 on UMD check for 22: Success!) (Cast on self and familiar, +2 to UMD) (25 gp)
Scroll 2: Eagle's Splendor (Wizard CL 3, take 10 on UMD check for 24: Success!) (+4 Charisma) (150 gp)
Scroll 3: Divine Insight (Cleric CL 4, take 10 on UMD check for 24: Success!) (+9 insight bonus to single skill or ability check) (200 gp)
Scroll 4: Improvisation (Bard CL 6, take 10 on UMD check for 26: Success!) (+3 luck bonus to skill or ability check) (150 gp)

We now make our check with a +19 Modifier vs a +8. Take 10. Win.

Total spent beyond PB setup: 525

Oh, and you need to include the cost of the magic circle and dimensional anchor.

Edit: Actually, divine insight is skill checks only, so replace with guidance of the avatar and a CL 24 improvisation, which adds another 400 gp total. Take 10 on the UMD check for 46: Success!


What a waste of money.

Argh, beat me to it. Well, may as well play devil's advocate to the point: since it's not legal to take 10 on UMD checks, don't bother purchasing items, but rather get the spells cast on you by purchasing Spellcasting Services (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices); total price should come to about 210 gp, unless I've missed some extra cost somewhere. Getting things set up to get all of them cast on you at the same time might be tricky, as well as getting that much gold without leveling, but those are hardly the most difficult things to arrange for TO purposes.

[Pippin]

Hardened Criminal allows him to take 10 on UMD.

My problem was to understand what Deophaun meant by "CL 24 Improvisation" >_<

[Khedrac]

Hardened Criminal allows him to take 10 on UMD.
Not a feat I recognize - where is it from?

[Pippin]

Not a feat I recognize - where is it from?
It is from City of Stormreach, page 95.

[Deophaun]

What a waste of money.

Hi! You missed this part:



Feat (Flaw): Hardened Criminal (UMD)


Hardened Criminal allows him to take 10 on UMD.

My problem was to understand what Deophaun meant by "CL 24 Improvisation" >_<
It's in the SpC. 1st level Bard spell, gives you a pool of luck points equal to 2 per caster level. For the spell's duration, you may spend a number of luck points up to half your CL to give you an equal bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks

[Pippin]

It's in the SpC. 1st level Bard spell, gives you a pool of luck points equal to 2 per caster level. For the spell's duration, you may spend a number of luck points up to half your CL to give you an equal bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks
I got all that, I was just wondering how exactly you were considering casting this spell with a CL of 24. :)

[Deophaun]

I got all that, I was just wondering how exactly you were considering casting this spell with a CL of 24. :)

Ah. That's what guidance of the avatar was for. :) (I just flat out ban that one in my games)

[Pippin]

Ah. That's what guidance of the avatar was for. :) (I just flat out ban that one in my games)
Guidance of the Avatar only works for skill checks though. Did I miss something?

[Deophaun]

Guidance of the Avatar only works for skill checks though. Did I miss something?
Yes. The skill check is the UMD check, not the Charisma check.

Charisma: +6
Ranks: +2
Skill Focus: +3
Magical Aptitude: +2
Share talents: +2
Guidance of the avatar: +20

UMD: +35, for a 45 on the check, which can cast a CL 25 scroll.

[Pippin]

UMD: +35, for a 45 on the check, which can cast a CL 25 scroll.
This thread is purely theoretical, and it already assumes a DM that would allow you to buy the scroll of any spell. But assuming a DM that would allow you to buy the scroll of any spell at any CL, I don't know, this might be getting too utopian for my taste.

[Deophaun]

This thread is purely theoretical, and it already assumes a DM that would allow you to buy the scroll of any spell. But assuming a DM that would allow you to buy the scroll of any spell at any CL, I don't know, this might be getting too utopian for my taste.
If you want to limit it to pre-epic... it actually makes it cheaper, because I wasn't totally efficient (I'm probably not still).

CL 18 Improvisation
CL 1 Focusing chant
CL 2 Ray of hope

Equivalent cost of a CL 21 Improvisation, saving 75 gp.

[Troacctid]

Kidnap a good-aligned 1st level Cleric from your local temple. Torture them a bit beforehand. Then offer them up as a sacrifice to the devil you're trying to bind. To sweeten your deal, offer your soul to the devil as well. This gives you a modifier of +13 on the opposed check, before you even add your Charisma bonus. Even with a small penalty depending on the length and difficulty of the service you're asking, that should be more than enough.

[Pippin]

If you want to limit it to pre-epic... it actually makes it cheaper, because I wasn't totally efficient (I'm probably not still).

CL 18 Improvisation
CL 1 Focusing chant
CL 2 Ray of hope

Equivalent cost of a CL 21 Improvisation, saving 75 gp.
What I'm saying is, it's a 1st-level spell so the only CL at which you could find scrolls should be 1.

I'm sorry but I think that most people would agree with me.

[JNAProductions]

What I'm saying is, it's a 1st-level spell so the only CL at which you could find scrolls should be 1.

I'm sorry but I think that most people would agree with me.

Why on earth WOULDN'T you be able to find scaled up spells? We're already assuming you can buy a scroll of Greater Planar Binding at level 1, higher CL spells are nothing too crazy.

[Deophaun]

What I'm saying is, it's a 1st-level spell so the only CL at which you could find scrolls should be 1.

I'm sorry but I think that most people would agree with me.
Huh? That's... I mean, the SRD goes out of its way specifically to say...

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level.
So, that's a very strange conclusion to make.

[Starkeeper]

What I'm saying is, it's a 1st-level spell so the only CL at which you could find scrolls should be 1.

I'm sorry but I think that most people would agree with me.


For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level.

This line from the SRD states the following:

1. You must use a CL high enough to cast the spell you're using for the item you're crafting
2. You may set the CL to anything up to your own CL.

So a level 5 Cleric could scribe a Scroll of Cure Light Wounds of CL 5.

Edit: Fixed the quote, sorry about that Deophaun.

[Deophaun]

I think you're misunderstanding, the very line you quoted from the SRD contradicts your assumption, it states the following:

1. You must use a CL high enough to cast the spell you're using for the item you're crafting
2. You may set the CL to anything up to your own CL.

So a level 5 Cleric could scribe a Scroll of Cure Light Wounds of CL 5.
I'm sorry, what assumption of mine is this contradicting? That an 18th level Bard cannot sell a scroll of improvisation at CL 18, or that a scroll of improvisation with a CL of 18 cannot be cast with a UMD check of over 40?

[Starkeeper]

I'm sorry, what assumption of mine is this contradicting? That an 18th level Bard cannot sell a scroll of improvisation at CL 18, or that a scroll of improvisation with a CL of 18 cannot be cast with a UMD check of over 40?

... ah, I'm sorry, I quoted the wrong person. :smalleek:

That was supposed to be quoting Pippin.

[Pippin]

The idea is, even though there is a formula to calculate the price of this scroll in the DMG, this doesn't mean that the scroll necessarily exists. Formulas are just guidelines for DMs to help them estimate the value of custom items that they choose to introduce in their game. So for instance, if they want to introduce a Ring of Continuous Shapechange, they can calculate the price easily. But the formula doesn't enable a player to outright craft such a ring with Forge Ring.

Now, since we're talking about a 1st-level spell, it might be possible for the player to find a capable bard in the city and ask him to make a scroll that the player would purchase. But this is where things are getting uncertain. Because that scroll doesn't exist anywhere in the books, and also because 18th-level bards are not that common.

[Deophaun]

The idea is, even though there is a formula to calculate the price of this scroll in the DMG, this doesn't mean that the scroll necessarily exists. Formulas are just guidelines for DMs to help them estimate the value of custom items that they choose to introduce in their game. So for instance, if they want to introduce a Ring of Continuous Shapechange, they can calculate the price easily. But the formula doesn't enable a player to outright craft such a ring with Forge Ring.
That's the guidelines for custom item creation. But a scroll with a non-standard level is not in that category, as there are actual rules (note: not guidelines) for that. There is no need to ask DM permission if a player wishes to craft a scroll of magic missile at CL 9; he just does it.

And since scrolls with a CL of 17 are available (that's the minimum level for a 9th level spell), putting the foot down on a CL 18 is rather... strange.

[Pippin]

Well, okay, but even if we allow such scrolls, there would be a problem with the casting times. Improvisation lasts 1 round/level while Greater Planar Binding takes 10 minutes to cast. That rules Eagle's Spendor out, which can be replaced with Nixie's Grace anyway. Depending on when exactly the DM makes you roll the UMD check, that might rule out Guidance of the Avatar as well, which lasts only 1 minute.

However we can always buy a few Guidance of the Avatar scrolls so that we always manage to cast spells with a casting time of 1 standard or full-round action from scrolls.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, okay, but even if we allow such scrolls, there would be a problem with the casting times. Improvisation lasts 1 round/level while Greater Planar Binding takes 10 minutes to cast. That rules Eagle's Spendor out, which can be replaced with Nixie's Grace anyway. Depending on when exactly the DM makes you roll the UMD check, that might rule out Guidance of the Avatar as well, which lasts only 1 minute.

However we can always buy a few Guidance of the Avatar scrolls so that we always manage to cast spells with a casting time of 1 standard or full-round action from scrolls.

I've already addressed this issue: not only is it cheaper to purchase these spells as Spellcasting Services, but it means you can get them all cast at the same time rather than having to UMD them yourself one after another.

[Deophaun]

Well, okay, but even if we allow such scrolls, there would be a problem with the casting times. Improvisation lasts 1 round/level while Greater Planar Binding takes 10 minutes to cast. That rules Eagle's Spendor out, which can be replaced with Nixie's Grace anyway. Depending on when exactly the DM makes you roll the UMD check, that might rule out Guidance of the Avatar as well, which lasts only 1 minute.
Why would you think you're casting improvisation or eagle's splendor before casting greater planar binding? The only things you cast before GPB are magic circle and dimensional anchor. Everything else is cast after, when you want to present your offer and make your Charisma check. The durations for these spells present plenty of time. The scroll of ray of hope is, in fact, CL 2 to specifically give you enough time to cast it and then make your Charisma check on the next round.

I've already addressed this issue: not only is it cheaper to purchase these spells as Spellcasting Services, but it means you can get them all cast at the same time rather than having to UMD them yourself one after another.
Umm...

Improvisation
Range: Personal
Good luck with that.

[AvatarVecna]

Good luck with that.

Even if you're ignoring how there's multiple methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?175257-3-5-Tranferring-personal-range-spells) of making personal spells affect people other than the caster, the post I referred to mentioned 4 spells, two of which are personal range...but one of them has a duration measuring in hours/level. If you start with 4 ranks instead of 2 in the skill (from taking a class with UMD as a class skill), you can take 10 on the DC to auto-pass. At that point, get a Bard friend to cast Share Talents and a Wizard friend to cast Eagle's Splendor, right before you follow up with a scroll of Improvisation (also auto-passed), and that should get you the same...but saving the difference in price between buying a 4 scrolls and buying 2 scrolls+2 spellcasting services (which might be "0 gp" if they're party members).

[Deophaun]

Even if you're ignoring how there's multiple methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?175257-3-5-Tranferring-personal-range-spells) of making personal spells affect people other than the caster
The only thing that's certain is scroll availability. Players do not have control over NPC builds, so getting an NPC to cast a personal-range spell on you is DM fiat territory.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The only thing that's certain is scroll availability. Players do not have control over NPC builds, so getting an NPC to cast a personal-range spell on you is DM fiat territory.Can't do it at ECL 1, but a spellblade could do it. All you'd have to do would be to convince the NPC to cast that particular spell and to hold the spellblade while he does it (and to redirect it to you).

[edit] Of course, a +1 morphing, sizing, spellblade shuriken could get you there for really cheap. Almost-affordable-at-level-1 cheap.

[icefractal]

Re: Availability - This is already kind of a TO thread; I don't think most GMs would be cool with Greater Planar Binding at 1st level. Even aside from that, getting a CL 18 scroll of Improvisation would seem to be no harder than getting a scroll of Greater Planar Binding in the first place - you need a high level crafter either way.

Alternate method for that, incidentally - borrow a staff that has Improvisation in it, use high UMD check to emulate a high CL, then return the staff and pay for the one charge that you used. That does assume people willing to loan items / sell individual charges though, which I'd estimate as more obtainable than high-level spellcasting services, but less obtainable than buying items normally.