Smitin' all Day: Bladelock w/Paladin dip. Does this build work?

[orcafromthesky]

Paladin 2/Warlock X, Pact of the Blade, STR based, Heavy Armor, using Polearm Master and Smite to spike burst DPR (recharging on a short rest). Variant Human would definitely be the strongest race, and Fiend would be the strongest patron, but I picked Green Dragonkin and Fey for aesthetic/RP reasons.

Here's the breakdown:

Green Dragonkin (poison breath weapon/resistance)
STR: 17
DEX: 8
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Level progression:
(1) Paladin: Heavy Armor Proficiency
(2) Warlock: Fey Patron, Pact Magic
(3) Paladin: Fighting Style (Defensive), Spellcasting, Smite
(4) Warlock: Eldritch Invocations (Agonizing Blast, Fiendish Vigor)
(5) Warlock: Pact of the Blade (Halberd)
(6) Warlock: Polearm Master
(7) Warlock: Thirsting Blade

etc.

Eventually take War Caster, and spend the last two ASI on Heavy Armor Master and +2 STR. Cantrips would be Booming Blade & Green-Flame Blade (awesome when coupled with Polearm Master and War Caster), + Eldritch Blast and...I don't know, probably Lightning Lure.

Opening salvo: Hex the target using a Paladin spell slot, and then blast the crap out of them using Smite.

Average DPR:

3rd Level: 1d10 (Halberd) + 2d8 (Smite) + 3 (STR) + 1d6 (Hex). 21 average damage.
6th Level: (1d10 + 3d8 + 3 + 1d6) + (1d4 + 3d8 + 3 + 1d6). 48 average damage.
7th Level: (1d10 + 4d8 + 3 + 1d6)*2 + (1d4 + 2d8 + 3 + 1d6). 78 average damage.

Most of your Smites will recharge every short rest, when you get your Warlock spell slots back. Even without Smite, the damage is pretty respectable, especially once Lifedrinker kicks in at level 14. By that point we'll have 18 STR, so a non-Smite round would look like:

(1d10 + 4 + 3 + 1d6)*2 + (1d4 + 4 + 3 + 1d6). 45 average damage. 112.5 average damage with Smite.

These numbers would look even more silly if you took Variant Human (for Polearm Master at level 1) and Fiend for your patron.

What do you think? Does this work? How does it compare to other DPR melee builds? This is my first time posting a 5e build, so any and all thoughts are welcome.

[AmbientRaven]

Honestly, Sorcerer is the better option in my eyes. Warlock you can smite what 3 times in a battle? Sorcerer, especially higher level, lets you dumb a lot more spell slots into smites, as well as getting you better spell options.

[Citan]

Paladin 2/Warlock X, Pact of the Blade, STR based, Heavy Armor, using Polearm Master and Smite to spike burst DPR (recharging on a short rest). Variant Human would definitely be the strongest race, and Fiend would be the strongest patron, but I picked Green Dragonkin and Fey for aesthetic/RP reasons.

Hi!

It certainly works, but if you really want to focus on the number of smites, then it's far from the best build.

The best build would probably be Paladin 2 / Warlock 7+ / Sorcerer 8+, to exploit the fact that...
1) You can convert any spell slot into Metamagic points.
2) You can also create spell slot from Metamagic points.
3) Warlock's spell slots recharge on a short rest.
4) Created spell slots can by RAW (probably not by RAI though) be kept until you take a long rest, even if it goes beyond your usual capability (such as having 6 lvl3 spells).

So, the idea is to consume your MP to create lvl 4 spell slots (smiting max), then convert your Warlock slots into MP and take a short rest. Rinse and repeat. Conversion nets 4 points per slot, creating costs 6, so it's roughly 4*lvl4 slots every 3 short rest.

With that said, it's a very niche and tedious build that will dangerously flirt with the upper limit of most DM's leniency. So I'd be wary of using it (and you should ask your DM beforehand). Note also that it's worth only when you can take several short rests in a given day, which is never a given. Beyond that, it's a pretty decent "Paladin variant".

A much simpler and legal alternative, especially if you're the only spellcaster in your group, would be that your DM allows you to play with "spellcasting points" variant.

This way you can expend precisely what you want.
In the hypothesis where you would spend all your spellcasting points ONLY on lvl 4 smiting, with a Paladin 2 + Sorcerer/Bard/Wizard/Druid/Cleric X build, you could do it roughly ~20 times in a single day.

[tieren]

I don't really get it. You certainly aren't maximizing your smiting, unless you short rest after every encounter. Is the idea you eventually get to add both Str and Cha to your attacks? Out of your 4 ASI's you want to take 3 feats so neither of those will be maximized.

Heavy Armor Master scales terribly, if you take it that late in the game it won't do much for you.

If you are looking to be a warlock with the power to burn through all of your spell slots in a single nova round I guess its ok, but after that first 6 seconds of every encounter you're kind of a gimped fighter.

[Mors]

Greenflame blade needs spell sniper to use with reach. Gwm + greatsword is easier so probably stronger. Sentinel + warcaster for booming blade also probably works fine.

Undying light warlock adds cha to greenflame i think, right? 12 lvls of warlock is all you need for lifedrinker. You should start imo with a race with con saves, fighter, barbarian or sorcerer. Shadow sorcerer does not die easily thanks to class feature, check it out. I would argue that paladin 6 is great for aura, take devotion to add cha at attack. After warlock 12 and if you still have available lvls, sorcerer is a better choice.

[Finieous]

Heavy Armor Master scales terribly, if you take it that late in the game it won't do much for you.


I imagine it depends on the campaign to some extent, but people always say this and I never understand it. I haven't taken the feat personally, but I have seen it played from 1st to 18th level. It scaled beautifully. Yes, at higher levels you start running into magic-weapon-using fiends, golems, some high-level undead, etc., that will bypass your DR. But (1) you don't only run into these monsters, (2) you get hit a lot more, and (3) it's a half-feat.

Tough is a full feat and grants 40 hp at 20th level. That means, if you get hit for nonmagical B/P/S damage seven times in a standard adventuring day, your HAM half-feat has scaled just fine. In reality, with bounded accuracy and everything multiattacking, you're getting hit a hell of a lot more than seven times by nonmagical damage over six to eight encounters. Dragon physical attacks, most fiends that use natural weapons, some high-level undead (e.g. vampires), pretty much all your monstrosities (e.g. purple worm, hydra, etc.), giants, things like trolls that become your horde monsters at high level, MaxWilson's necromancer army of skeleton archers, mechanical traps -- HAM works on all this stuff.

The three hit points it mitigates with each hit is obviously a much lower percentage of your total hit points than they were at low level, but because you get hit so much more throughout the day, the feat scales. You only want to take it if you're going to be "tanking" (i.e. in the middle of the action getting hit a lot), but if you are, it's a terrific half-feat that delivers significant damage mitigation at all levels.

[Citan]

[B]
Eventually take War Caster, and spend the last two ASI on Heavy Armor Master and +2 STR. Cantrips would be Booming Blade & Green-Flame Blade (awesome when coupled with Polearm Master and War Caster), + Eldritch Blast and...I don't know, probably Lightning Lure.

Opening salvo: Hex the target using a Paladin spell slot, and then blast the crap out of them using Smite.

Average DPR:

3rd Level: 1d10 (Halberd) + 2d8 (Smite) + 3 (STR) + 1d6 (Hex). 21 average damage.
6th Level: (1d10 + 3d8 + 3 + 1d6) + (1d4 + 3d8 + 3 + 1d6). 48 average damage.
7th Level: (1d10 + 4d8 + 3 + 1d6)*2 + (1d4 + 2d8 + 3 + 1d6). 78 average damage.

Ok. I focused earlier on the smiting aspect, I overlooked the rest of your post.
I agree with other posters that it may be difficult to build considering how many feats you want.

AFAIK, the build the closest to what you would want to achieve in terms of feats + smite would be the following (note that it dips into Unearthed Arcana for added benefit).

Paladin 2: starting proficiencies and smiting
Undying Light Tome Warlock 3: take Shillelagh to put CHA on quarterstaff and Thorn Whip (or Lightning Lure) or Produce Flame because it can be great in some situations as bonus cantrips. For Warlock cantrips, learn GreenFlameBlade and Booming Blade.
Draconic Sorcerer 6: metamagic and bonus on fire damage.

Start Paladin 2 then immediately Warlock 3 (4 if you need feat) then Sorcerer 6.
At lvl 5, you get a potent melee attack that is entirely CHA dependent (Shillelagh on quarterstaff + GreenFlameBlade) and get +CHA damage (Undying Light) as well as limited smiting. Once you get Draconic Sorcerer up to 6 to get another +CHA to damage.

With this, you can don heavy armor to be a minimum resilient, even wear a shield if necessary.

And since everything depends only on CHA, you can spend ASIs on Feats instead of bumping STR.

Obviously GWM is out of question now, but you will still get +10 damage in the end thanks to the class features. Just know that you will be much less efficient against any fire-resistant/immune creature.

Furthermore, you can still take Warcaster and either Sentinel or Polearm Master (or even both depending on starting stats and race).

As for the later levels, if you want to cheese, the best final build would be Pal 2 / Lock 7 / Sor 11. Going Warlock up to 7 nets you a two lvl4 slots for direct smite or conversion and a few invocations.

Otherwise, level Sorcerer up for more spellcasting, with the following dipping options somewhere along:
- Paladin +2 to get an Oath (Devotion preferably since you have Hex, but Vengeance is good also) and an ASI;
- Swashbuckler Rogue 3 (if you have required Dex) to get Cunning Action (increasing your movement), free disengage and +CHA to Initiative.
- Ancients Paladin 7 to greatly increase your defense (magic resistance and +CHA to saves), at the cost of a dead level (Extra Attack) and lesser spellcasting.

Hope I was clear and you find this helpful. :)

[tieren]

I imagine it depends on the campaign to some extent, but people always say this and I never understand it. I haven't taken the feat personally, but I have seen it played from 1st to 18th level. It scaled beautifully. Yes, at higher levels you start running into magic-weapon-using fiends, golems, some high-level undead, etc., that will bypass your DR. But (1) you don't only run into these monsters, (2) you get hit a lot more, and (3) it's a half-feat.

Tough is a full feat and grants 40 hp at 20th level. That means, if you get hit for nonmagical B/P/S damage seven times in a standard adventuring day, your HAM half-feat has scaled just fine. In reality, with bounded accuracy and everything multiattacking, you're getting hit a hell of a lot more than seven times by nonmagical damage over six to eight encounters. Dragon physical attacks, most fiends that use natural weapons, some high-level undead (e.g. vampires), pretty much all your monstrosities (e.g. purple worm, hydra, etc.), giants, things like trolls that become your horde monsters at high level, MaxWilson's necromancer army of skeleton archers, mechanical traps -- HAM works on all this stuff.

The three hit points it mitigates with each hit is obviously a much lower percentage of your total hit points than they were at low level, but because you get hit so much more throughout the day, the feat scales. You only want to take it if you're going to be "tanking" (i.e. in the middle of the action getting hit a lot), but if you are, it's a terrific half-feat that delivers significant damage mitigation at all levels.

You make good points that I hadn't really considered before.

I usually think of it in terms of at early levels when enemies are only hitting you for 4-6 points of damage, reducing by 3 makes you feel pretty invincible, by the time they are hitting you for 14-16 points the effect has lost much of its wow factor. By the time you are talking about high level monsters physical attacks you may not notice it at all, but like you say that doesn't mean it isn't there doing its job and the net effect over the course of a day may still be decent.

[Finieous]

Yeah, the experience of playing with the feat probably scales poorly, from "Ha! Silly kobolds, you can't hurt me!" to "Well, at least it's efficient damage mitigation over the course of the adventuring day." But mechanically, the feat continues to do its job.

[Foxhound438]

you get basically figther1/bladelockx with smite as an option... not bad, it's right there with pure pally (minus if the pure pally casts elemental weapon 2), which is pretty good. So yes, the build is doable. Personally I'd go for fighter 2 for action surge as my burst option (doesn't cost spell slots that i'd rather use on something like fire shield), but this will work fine.

[tieren]

I still don't quite get what OP is going for.

He wants to be a bladelock, so he wants to stand around and hit stuff with a stick, but slower than a fighter would (fewer attacks) and wants to burn his spell slots on smiting. As a warlock hes going to burn an invocation to get extra attack, which every other martial class just gets, and then when hes at level 14 he'll use another one to get to add Cha to his attacks, but he never wants to raise his charisma.

Compare to say paladin 11/warlock 9 - you lose the higher level mystic arcanums, but you still get the level 5 short rest recharging spell slots, many more paladin slots, improved divine smite going on every hit instead of the +3 of his life drinker invocation, and the paladin auras.

Without having to take thirsting blade you would be free to use the invocation on something more fun, like unlimited silent images or something.

[orcafromthesky]

I still don't quite get what OP is going for.

He wants to be a bladelock, so he wants to stand around and hit stuff with a stick, but slower than a fighter would (fewer attacks) and wants to burn his spell slots on smiting. As a warlock hes going to burn an invocation to get extra attack, which every other martial class just gets, and then when hes at level 14 he'll use another one to get to add Cha to his attacks, but he never wants to raise his charisma.

Compare to say paladin 11/warlock 9 - you lose the higher level mystic arcanums, but you still get the level 5 short rest recharging spell slots, many more paladin slots, improved divine smite going on every hit instead of the +3 of his life drinker invocation, and the paladin auras.

Without having to take thirsting blade you would be free to use the invocation on something more fun, like unlimited silent images or something.

I mean, I'd like to raise my Charisma, but Strength has priority, and this build only gets four ASI (five with variant human). Polearm Master (necessary for the extra attack, which benefits from Lifedrinker), War Caster, Heavy Armor Master, and +2 STR. I only took Heavy Armor Master because my Strength was odd, otherwise I would have just gone for +2.

I hadn't considered going a more equal split between Paladin/Warlock, though. To answer your question: what I was going for was something gishy that felt that it had a fun (and believable) character concept. For this one, I was going for a kind of "Champion of the Fey" thing; a young, promising Paladin attracts the attention of a powerful fey, who decides to take him under his/her wing. He becomes their mortal champion, conducting their business in the mortal realm in exchange for power. I like the idea because it's a Paladin-like character who would actually have a relationship with the person/concept he's sworn to defend.


Greenflame blade needs spell sniper to use with reach.

This might kill it, though. I hadn't thought about this. I'd take Spell Sniper, but that makes the build so feat heavy that it doesn't really come into its own until after level 10. I'd use a Greatsword/Maul, but then it wouldn't benefit from Polearm Mastery, which provides a much higher damage boost than GWM does (one more chance for Lifedrinker and Smite). I'd use a quarterstaff, but that just feels...less cool. Sigh.

Thanks for your comments, everyone! Clearly I need to examine this a little more.

[tieren]

Try this:

Go pact of the tome, take the shillelagh can trip and use a quarter staff with pole arm master.

Now charisma is your only attack stat, you don't have to spend asi on strength. You get the extra attack from paladin instead of thirsting blade.

[charcoalninja]

Just use a staff and call it a spear.

[Malifice]

Yeah, the experience of playing with the feat probably scales poorly, from "Ha! Silly kobolds, you can't hurt me!" to "Well, at least it's efficient damage mitigation over the course of the adventuring day." But mechanically, the feat continues to do its job.

I played a low level fighter/ lock with HAM and constant temp HP (false life at will invocation meant I started every fight with 8 temp HP, and Fiend pact milked around 5 more every kill I made).

It was all but immune to mooks.

Take 8 points of damage? Reduce it by 3. Lose 5 temp HP. Kill something. Reset Temp HP to 5. Repeat.

Im looking forward to higher level slots (4ths) to spam AoA. Should get slightly better mileage out of 20 temp HP (reducing damage by 3 each time).

Really want to try a porcipine tank Barbarian/ lock too. Armor of Agathys + Rage + Temp HP + Hellish rebuke + Polearm master.

[EvanescentHero]

Really want to try a porcipine tank Barbarian/ lock too. Armor of Agathys + Rage + Temp HP + Hellish rebuke + Polearm master.

You can't have all that going at once. No spells while raging.

[Finieous]

You can't have all that going at once. No spells while raging.

You can't cast or concentrate, so he can have all of it going at once except Hellish Rebuke.

[Malifice]

You can't have all that going at once. No spells while raging.

Armor of Agathys isnt concentration. Its fair game (and a nice way to really take advantage of the Barbs resistance).

[Foxhound438]

Try this:

Go pact of the tome, take the shillelagh can trip and use a quarter staff with pole arm master.

Now charisma is your only attack stat, you don't have to spend asi on strength. You get the extra attack from paladin instead of thirsting blade.

if you do that you need pal 5 for extra attack. It's still good, though. 11/9 split does nicely in that you get 5th level lock spells and improved divine smite (probably better). he'd also get to use a shield and dueling style for better AC and damage. Seems good, but takes a loooooooong time to get all your key parts. Probably go Pal1 vuman with polearm master, into warlock for 3 levels to get shilelagh, then out to 11 with pally. He'd have better damage at level 8, but 1-7 could be rough.

[Foxhound438]

Really want to try a porcipine tank Barbarian/ lock too. Armor of Agathys + Rage + Temp HP + Hellish rebuke + Polearm master.

fire shield on top of all that; it also doesn't require concentration and deals damage on being hit.

[Malifice]

fire shield on top of all that; it also doesn't require concentration and deals damage on being hit.

Yeah; been tweaking a porcipine tank build along these lines for a while. I keep coming back to abjurer.

Barbarian 3/ Paladin 2/ Bladesinger 12/ Warlock 3 works well.

Precast armor of agathys and fire shield. Blade dance and rage. Use a halberd. Attack three times per turn, spamming divine smites and absorbing damage with spell slots.

[Foxhound438]

Yeah; been tweaking a porcipine tank build along these lines for a while. I keep coming back to abjurer.

Barbarian 3/ Paladin 2/ Bladesinger 12/ Warlock 3 works well.

Precast armor of agathys and fire shield. Blade dance and rage. Use a halberd. Attack three times per turn, spamming divine smites and absorbing damage with spell slots.

seems kind of greedy on resources at that point. slots to negate damage is pretty good though.

[Nicodiemus]

And you can't bladesing with a halberd. It's a two handed weapon