Maximizing a Necromancer

[RulesJD]

Looking for any advice/thoughts on maximizing a Necromancer. Currently level 3 going through CoS. Went with Deep Gnome for the darkvision/spell saves and Criminal (Hired Killer) background because who would suspect foul play when a person is killed by an undead abomination, especially with some summoning salts sprinkled on their corpse (think Dave Chappelle's cops skit about sprinkling crack).

I'm especially interested in any success players/DMs have had with integrating 5+ player controlled minions. I don't want to have combat slog down each time it hits my turn. My current idea is to use 2-3 main Skeleton/Zombie "minis" and then have magnetic stackers underneath to track how many each mini represents. Additionally, I figured using a simple excel spreadsheet would be the easiest way of tracking minion HP, although at the end of each day I would just kill any injured one and re-raise them if I have the spell slots.

Combat

It seems that a digital roller would be the most effective for 5+ rolls, especially when there's advantage/disadvantage. I'm planning on mostly using Archer Skeletons just for simplicity + effectiveness, with maybe a Zombie or two for trap roombas/heavy lifting.

Spells

I figure control spells (Gust of Wind to push away, etc) and spells that generate advantage/restrained condition are my best bet early on. Faerie Fire would be ideal but sadly not on the Wizard's list. Maybe Web? Unfortunately Skeletons don't get Blindsight (despite not having eyes!) so Darkness doesn't help.

Blindness seems like a good start, sadly single target.

Roleplaying

If going into a town I think just order them all to dig shallow graves and lay down in them is my best bet. That way if I don't get back to reassert control they're already stuck underground. Alternatively maybe a horse drawn covered cart + Prestidigitation for the smell?

[Segev]

Most of that sounds good. You're some ways off from having undead minions, sadly, since you can't do it until level 5 (and, if you do it at that level, you waste a free spell in your spellbook - stupid design decision when they don't give you a bonus spell of your choice if you already have it), but either of your ideas for dealing with them in town should work. Assuming you don't want to just flaunt being a powerful necromancer with whom none should mess. (In which case, go with a palanquin carried by your minions.)

However... double-check animate dead; I think it says you can't cast it on a corpse that has been affected by it once already. So killing and re-raising them is not really an option. You'd need replacement corpses.

[JellyPooga]

Fog Cloud.

You want this spell. Why?

1) It's better than Darkness. Lower level, larger area. Have your horde form up in line-abreast and march through it, "attacking the darkness" as they go. Their chances of hitting are pretty slim anyway and effectively blinding all your opponents ramps up your minions' durability no end. Also, it's harder to skirt around a horde when you can't see where the edges of it are.

2) I can't think of much that's more terrifying than a horde of undead marching through/out if a fog bank. Cast Dancing Lights to get some eerie eldritch lighting effects too.

For town encounters, ensure you only have skeletons; they smell less. Invest in some voluminous grey robes with hoods and have your minions follow you in silent single file and pretend toward religious activity.

[RulesJD]

Most of that sounds good. You're some ways off from having undead minions, sadly, since you can't do it until level 5 (and, if you do it at that level, you waste a free spell in your spellbook - stupid design decision when they don't give you a bonus spell of your choice if you already have it), but either of your ideas for dealing with them in town should work. Assuming you don't want to just flaunt being a powerful necromancer with whom none should mess. (In which case, go with a palanquin carried by your minions.)

However... double-check animate dead; I think it says you can't cast it on a corpse that has been affected by it once already. So killing and re-raising them is not really an option. You'd need replacement corpses.

General theme is the Deep Gnome wants to beat Strahd at his own game, aka take over his demiplane and be a benevolent ruler.

Completely agree on the bonus spell issue. No Necromancer will wait from level 5 -> 6 (traditionally one of the longest slogs), so obviously I'm taking it at level 5 if I haven't already picked it up off a scroll or spellbook. Oh well.

And nope, it doesn't say that. I thought the same as you but then I saw a tweet from Jeremy Crawford that mentioned doing exactly that, turns out its both RAW and RAI to cast Animate Dead on a corpse/bones that you previously animated. Which honestly makes a lot of sense thematically.

[Joe dirt]

I assume your playing an evil campaign? How do the others in your party feel about undead because most dm will limit your ability to adventure with a pack of zombies around and most town folk will accuse ur character of murder even if u didnt do it.... necro have that reputation... my suggestion to get around that and keep some undead is get a portable hole as soon as possible and the less people know of your powers the better until u have grown enough that u dont have much to fear anymore

The wagon idea might work but what if u went around as a sellsman for coffins?... just an idea

Also take spells that work with your undead like poison and mind effects doesn't hurt them so they synergy well

I would also ask your dm what undead behaves like when not under your control after u let the spell expires... because if they remain agressive to u and everyone else like in the walking dead then u are not limited on ur numbers just store then in a container until u need them and cast invisibility and release them on ur foes.

[RulesJD]

Not an evil campaign, my character is actually Chaotic Good. The evil vs good debate has been hashed out repeatedly and the conclusion is that Necromancers are not required to be evil. Often evil? Sure, but not required.

As for spells I was tempted by poison AoEs like Stinking Cloud, but that's both a bit too high level and sadly my other party members are still very much impacted by it.

The spell description takes care of what undead do when the spell wears off.

[MaxWilson]

Most of that sounds good. You're some ways off from having undead minions, sadly, since you can't do it until level 5 (and, if you do it at that level, you waste a free spell in your spellbook - stupid design decision when they don't give you a bonus spell of your choice if you already have it), but either of your ideas for dealing with them in town should work. Assuming you don't want to just flaunt being a powerful necromancer with whom none should mess. (In which case, go with a palanquin carried by your minions.)

However... double-check animate dead; I think it says you can't cast it on a corpse that has been affected by it once already. So killing and re-raising them is not really an option. You'd need replacement corpses.

It doesn't say that. It does say that you need to cast it on the corpse of or pile of bones from a humanoid. If your DM says that a smashed skeleton is now "bones from an undead" instead of "bones from a humanoid", the spell won't revive a skeleton.

IMO that's a reasonable interpretation.

[manny2510]

Animate Dead IS Faerie Fire. Have them take the help action when adjacent to an an enemy. 9/10 times a party of PCs will generally hit harder than any undead you control, but one thing though is that the help action does not stack well on one enemy. Also grab some backpacks for them. You may want to consider loading one backpack with lamp oil, caltrops, and ball bearings.

[Segev]

Recall that undead add a necromancer's proficiency bonus to both attack and damage rolls. That's actually pretty hefty.

[RulesJD]

Recall that undead add a necromancer's proficiency bonus to both attack and damage rolls. That's actually pretty hefty.

It's actually only the damage rolls. That's why I was trying to find a way to get Advantage to make them hit more often. Base damage (at level 6) will be 1d6+5 for Archer Skeleton. Assuming 8 Skeletons (seems like a reasonable number considering 2 3rd level slots each day) that's 8d6+40 potential damage for only a bonus action/no action (after first command they just keep attacking). The problem is their to-hit is fairly bad.

Additionally, really hoping I can party up with a War Cleric/Lore Bard to snag Crusader's Mantle. Still have the to-hit problem but the damage will ramp up pretty fiercely.



Regarding the backpacks with caltrops, etc., do you mean to have them throw them down? I actually hadn't thought of alternative combat uses for the minions besides Help action, maybe Grappling, and just damage dealers.

[JellyPooga]

You may want to consider loading one backpack with lamp oil, caltrops, and ball bearings.

Psh. Why limit yourself to one Backpack? Skeletons have all that empty space up in their chest cavity; plenty of room for a sack. I recommend a vial of Alchemists Fire in its jaws as the trigger for this particular style of walking grenade...

[manny2510]

It's actually only the damage rolls. That's why I was trying to find a way to get Advantage to make them hit more often. Base damage (at level 6) will be 1d6+5 for Archer Skeleton. Assuming 8 Skeletons (seems like a reasonable number considering 2 3rd level slots each day) that's 8d6+40 potential damage for only a bonus action/no action (after first command they just keep attacking). The problem is their to-hit is fairly bad.

Additionally, really hoping I can party up with a War Cleric/Lore Bard to snag Crusader's Mantle. Still have the to-hit problem but the damage will ramp up pretty fiercely.



Regarding the backpacks with caltrops, etc., do you mean to have them throw them down? I actually hadn't thought of alternative combat uses for the minions besides Help action, maybe Grappling, and just damage dealers.

Yes, to throw down, to ignite a zombie whilst grappling an enemy, or even just as a pack mule. Self guiding bombs if you ever play with explosives from the DMG.

[Reaper34]

for running groups of minions. plan what they are going to do ahead of time. move them all at once. roll attacks for them all at once with different colored dice if possible. and roll damage all at once with color coded dice. this helps streamline your turn so your hoard doesn't slow combat to a crawl. it's alot like DMing a combat. the key is to plan ahead and to roll as few times as you can by combining rolls. sometimes not quite as fun but everyone else is waiting on their turn too.

[JellyPooga]

for running groups of minions. plan what they are going to do ahead of time. move them all at once. roll attacks for them all at once with different colored dice if possible. and roll damage all at once with color coded dice. this helps streamline your turn so your hoard doesn't slow combat to a crawl. it's alot like DMing a combat. the key is to plan ahead and to roll as few times as you can by combining rolls. sometimes not quite as fun but everyone else is waiting on their turn too.

Solid advice. The only thing I'd add is to try and homogenise your minion types; as tempting as it might be to have a zombie Giant Bat for riding, a Minotaur Skeleton for heavy lifting, three or four Human zombies as a skirmish line, some Dire Badger skeletons for subterranean ambushes and so on and so forth, the diversity of your minions will slow things down. Keep things simple and raise your dead in easy to manage groups of like type.

[RulesJD]

Should have mentioned that this is an Adventurer's League campaign, so no undead zombie Minos. Limited to by the book Skeletons and Zombies unfortunately.

But ideas like the carrying items, throwing alchemist fire, caltrops, or other uses are fair game.

I thought of using different color die for rolling in combat, but I'd honestly prefer just to use a digital app for the minions, especially considering that I plan on trying to generate advantage for them as much as possible. Any recommended apps for rolling multiple character attack and damage rolls?

[Segev]

Solid advice. The only thing I'd add is to try and homogenise your minion types; as tempting as it might be to have a zombie Giant Bat for riding, a Minotaur Skeleton for heavy lifting, three or four Human zombies as a skirmish line, some Dire Badger skeletons for subterranean ambushes and so on and so forth, the diversity of your minions will slow things down. Keep things simple and raise your dead in easy to manage groups of like type.

Sadly, he has no choice on this. To my knowledge, there is no way to raise skeletons or zombies of any sort other than the basic humanoid ones.

[Theodoxus]

How free are you to homebrew? I have a necromancer in my current game who has been wanting to play a true 'master of an undead army' type character for a long time. She's made similar characters in different game systems and was never allowed to really stretch her wings, so to speak...

So, I really boosted necromancy in the game, to allow for a more epic feel of the class. For starters, I imported the Corpsecrafter feat, allowing her to boost her undead with two boons from a list of 6 (each animated undead can get a different set, if desired.) I also changed Animate Dead to be permanent, rather than needing to be recast every day. As a balancing action, I limited the maximum number of individual undead (not HD, though that might change, if it becomes problematic) to the value of her save DC. (Currently 16 at 5th level). I also gave her the Crawling Claw ritual as a level 1 spell. So far, she's had 8 claws and 3 zombies animated at once. It hasn't been too much of an issue for me as a DM, and I haven't heard any complaints from the other players regarding her taking too long to deal with combat.

(Corpsecrafter has an 'exploding' option, when the undead is reduced to 0 HP - that has had a few epic turns in combat, wiping out minions and such in an catastrophic AOE chain reaction from dying claws.)

If you're stuck with RAW, the advice above me has been pretty spot on. I hope you have a lot of fun with your pets. I dig the necro a lot this edition (though I like my changes).

ETA: Sigh, another thread killed by 'additional information' - lol. Well, maybe someone can use my experiences in their games.

[Belac93]

Ask your DM if you can have your find familiar spell summon an undead creature. I would suggest either a cat (for spookiness), or a crawling claw if you want to have a truly disturbing minion.

[JellyPooga]

Should have mentioned that this is an Adventurer's League campaign, so no undead zombie Minos. Limited to by the book Skeletons and Zombies unfortunately.

I'm not familiar with how restrictive AL is, so feel free to ignore me if this is irrelevant, but you've got a fair bit of variety within the parameters of the spell.


Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid

Skeleton +2 Dex, -4 Int, -4 Cha, (laundry list of Features)

Zombie +1 Str, +2 Con, -6 Int, -4 Wis, -4 Cha, (laundry list of Features)

An Orc Zombie is a legal target and has the following stats:
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 7, Cha 6
Sounds like a decent "bruiser" alternative to your run-of-the-mill Human Zombie. Lizardfolk should also make pretty good Zombies if they get to keep their Bite attack and Swim Speed. For an "out-there" choice (if you can find one) a Quaggoth is also a legal target and gets Str 18 and Con 18, a Climb Speed and (potentially) two Claw attacks.

A Kenku Skeleton is also legal with;
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 6
Look good as an archer, perhaps?

[Reaper34]

i'm just glad they got rid of the black onyx component for the spell. that was a pain. and who didn't know what you were when you went into a shop and cleaned them out of onyx? sorry 3.x flashback.

[JellyPooga]

i'm just glad they got rid of the black onyx component for the spell. that was a pain. and who didn't know what you were when you went into a shop and cleaned them out of onyx? sorry 3.x flashback.

Hey! My cover as a specialist jeweler for the goth market was infallible! (that and my epic Bluff score...)

[Tanarii]

Not an evil campaign, my character is actually Chaotic Good. The evil vs good debate has been hashed out repeatedly and the conclusion is that Necromancers are not required to be evil. Often evil? Sure, but not required.From the PHB sidebar in the Magic Chapter on the Schools of Magic, Necromancy:
Necromancy spells manipulate the energies of life and death. Such spells can grant an extra reserve of life force, drain the life energy from another creature, create the undead, or even bring the dead back to life.
Creating the undead through the use of necromancy spells such as animate dead is not a good act, and only evil casters use such spells frequently.


You're obviously intending to use such spells frequently. It's not appropriate to pick a Chaotic Good alignment for such a character. It is in fact pointless, because while your character sheet may say Chaotic Good, you won't actually be Role Playing a Chaotic Good character. Since the entire point of Alignment in 5e is to inform Role Playing, you're making your alignment choice pointless. You're Roleplaying an evil character, per the PHB, no matter what the character sheet says.

(Note this is the only instance in 5e outside of the Alignment typical behavior descriptions where some overall behavior has associated morality. And it's the only one at all in 5e where a specific act has associated morality.)

Unless your DM is planning to house-rule that side-bar text away for his campaign, of course.

Figured I'd better put a spoiler around that OT comment. Otherwise this thread is gonna derail for sure. ;)

[Gastronomie]

From the PHB sidebar in the Magic Chapter on the Schools of Magic, Necromancy:
Necromancy spells manipulate the energies of life and death. Such spells can grant an extra reserve of life force, drain the life energy from another creature, create the undead, or even bring the dead back to life.
Creating the undead through the use of necromancy spells such as animate dead is not a good act, and only evil casters use such spells frequently.


You're obviously intending to use such spells frequently. It's not appropriate to pick a Chaotic Good alignment for such a character. It is in fact pointless, because while your character sheet may say Chaotic Good, you won't actually be Role Playing a Chaotic Good character. Since the entire point of Alignment in 5e is to inform Role Playing, you're making your alignment choice pointless. You're Roleplaying an evil character, per the PHB, no matter what the character sheet says.

(Note this is the only instance in 5e outside of the Alignment typical behavior descriptions where some overall behavior has associated morality. And it's the only one at all in 5e where a specific act has associated morality.)

Unless your DM is planning to house-rule that side-bar text away for his campaign, of course.

Figured I'd better put a spoiler around that OT comment. Otherwise this thread is gonna derail for sure. ;)The alignment system is IMO honestly near-worthless for PCs (the only place it comes up handy is when you're browsing through the Monster Manual and checking the general personality of the creatures), but either way that piece of information is sorta inflexible, if not based upon hard-headed Christianty. I don't like it.

It's possible to create a Chaotic Good Necromancer with the below logic:

While reviving corpses and making the dead people fight may seem like a terrible act, so is making living people fight. In fact the latter is worse in how the humans could get killed in the process. If it's all zombies and skeletons attacking the invaders/evils/whatever, there's absolutely no risk of anybody dying, and everybody is happy.
The necromancer uses corpses, not to just troll the hell out of dead bodies and be like I HAVE ZE POWWAH. He's utilizing corpses (otherwise worthless), recycling them to become extremely effective soldiers that defend the living.

This may be different from what many commoners in most worlds believe, but it still does stand as a pretty logical reason as to why necromancy doesn't necesarrily have to be an evil act - in fact a good deed, even. This logic perfectly belongs in Chaotic Good, uncaring for common sense but still with his own unique sense of justice.

The concept of necromancy itself is not evil. Sure, if you use your undead minions to create your personal army and raid villages, that's evil, but it's the part about the raiding villages that actually makes it evil. If you're gonna have the minions rebuild a village destroyed by orcs, or if you're gonna have the minions fight evil, you're a hero.

[JoeJ]

The concept of necromancy itself is not evil. Sure, if you use your undead minions to create your personal army and raid villages, that's evil, but it's the part about the raiding villages that actually makes it evil. If you're gonna have the minions rebuild a village destroyed by orcs, or if you're gonna have the minions fight evil, you're a hero.

It might not necessarily be evil, but in most situations it involves a pretty callous attitude toward harming innocent people. You're not creating mindless robots; you're creating self-propelled murder machines that become an extreme risk to the public if you ever, for any reason, lose control.

[Tanarii]

The alignment system is IMO honestly near-worthless for PCs (the only place it comes up handy is when you're browsing through the Monster Manual and checking the general personality of the creatures), but either way that piece of information is sorta inflexible, if not based upon hard-headed Christianty. I don't like it.Alignment is generally a very useful RP tool for those who understand how 5e uses it. This kinda breaks that though, because it's almost back to front. To put it another way, it is an absolute, where as the rest of alignment is a guideline.

You may not like it but 5e explicitly says only evil casters create the undead regularly.


It's possible to create a Chaotic Good Necromancer with the below logic:Nope. Apparently it's still not good. Because the PHB lists one act as not good: raising the dead. It lists no acts as good. It's weirdly specific. It's the only case where alignment can possibly arise from an act or behavior, as opposed to guidelines assisting a player with Roleplaying decisions on how to behave or act.


The concept of necromancy itself is not evil.It is in 5e. Explicitly. It's the only thing in the entirety of 5e that explicitly has morality associated with it.


Personally I think the side bar was intended to let you know: Hey, if you're attempting to Role Play a Good Wizard, be aware you shouldn't plan to use necromancy regularly, because it's not good. Unfortunately it wrote it in language of an absolute, not a guideline.

In 5e, alignment informs your choices in role playing, but it usually doesn't restrict your actions, it just gives you typical behavior to consider, a guideline. Except in this one specific case, when it's suddenly an absolute: only evil casters choose to create the undead regularly.

[Gastronomie]

Yeah, except the DM has the authority to bend anything mentioned in the rules, especially if it has no real reasoning and makes absolutely no sense. You're not seeing the whole point of playing a TRPG instead of Final Fantasy, which is flexibility in the rules. Sticking to the just the books and disallowing everything else is IMO a terrible idea, if not horrendous.

@JoeJ: I believe Non-Evil Necromancers (or whatever, if you guys insist, necromancers that try their best to work for the society and protect the people but somehow are still considered evil-alignment) are like the executives of a nuclear energy plant system. It's a dangerous force and it can get lots of people into trouble if they get something wrong, and a lot of people don't like it because of it. But the executives themselves think it's a good thing for the society and they try their best to control it (well, of course, it occasionally goes wrong even so).

If you're gonna argue necromancy itself is evil, you should add your own world setting like, "Necromancy is not an art that simply makes corpses move, but rather it brings back the corpses' respective souls from their peaceful afterlife and enslaves the souls into the man-eating rotting bodies against their own will. The souls can only watch in horror (from inside their bodies) as their bodies devour fleeing humans alive and whatnot". In which case, I will definitely agree that necromancy is an absurdly vile act.

But as it is, it's no different from using a nuclear power plant.

[Tanarii]

Should have mentioned that this is an Adventurer's League campaign,


Yeah, except the DM has the authority to bend anything mentioned in the rules,i just noticed: this is for the Adventurers league, so the DM can't bend the rules. At least not much. And AL has a rule against evil characters. At least, NE and CE ones.

Any AL DM can point at the sidebar and declare the character isn't valid for Adventure's League per the PHB rules. Unless they have a exception for Necromancy I'm unaware of in their own rules?

Edit: Dropping the OT spoilers, because for AL it's very much on topic. A CG Necromancer may be an invalid AL character. It may be necessary to make the character LE.

[RulesJD]

this is for the Adventurers league. Which also has a rule against evil characters. At least, NE and CE ones.

Any AL DM can point at the sidebar and declare the character isn't valid for Adventure's League per the PHB rules. Unless they have a exception for Necromancy I'm unaware of in their own rules?

1. Response: Specific beats General in 5e.

General Rule - Using Necromancy spells frequently is evil. (Source: PHB Sidebar)

Specific Rule - Not all School of Necromancy Wizards are evil (Source: PHB pg. 118, school description) "Most people see necromancers as menacing, or even villainous, due to the dose association with death. Not all necromancers are evil, but the forces they manipulate are considered taboo by many societies."

Conclusion: Don't use Necromancy spells frequently and you don't have to be evil. What is frequently? DM discretion.

Conclusion: School of Necromancy Wizards are not necessarily evil.


2. Adventurer's League:

AL permits Evil characters. They have to be members of the Lord's Alliance or Zhentarim (my guys is Lord's Alliance since he plans on ruling Barovia) and can only be Lawfully Evil. My guy is Chaotic Good so it doesn't matter (see #1 above).

[JackPhoenix]

Necromancy school as a whole is not evil...however, spells that create undead specifically are

Not every necromancer is evil...because not every necromancer creates undead. Getting extra HP from Vampiric Touch is perfectly fine

[Segev]

i'm just glad they got rid of the black onyx component for the spell. that was a pain. and who didn't know what you were when you went into a shop and cleaned them out of onyx? sorry 3.x flashback.
Bah. I liked that material component. Ah well. Not a big deal. Maybe I can use an "orb" of black onyx as an "arcane focus." :P

Regarding alignment:
I believe that 5e retains the whole "descriptive, not prescriptive" thing. Write whatever you want on your stat sheet. If the GMs in the AL tell you that you've slipped in alignment, so be it. If AL allows evil characters, it won't matter if they force you to write "E" on your stat page after a while as long as you can play him how you like.

[wunderkid]

I had a lengthy discussion with my friend on the application of the morality system in d&d and the overall conclusion was that an evil alignment does not constitute an evil character. It simply means you're willing to undertake evil acts.

For example, if you were given the choice to save a village by killing a begger, an 'evil' character would be able to do that because killing the begger in itself is an 'evil' act.

By the same token raising the dead may be an evil act but it certainly doesn't make your character 'evil'

As far as maximizing the necro goes, personally I like to take a level or two in rogue (or bard). Because a lot of your resources will be tied into maintaining your army, you will be a little resource light and also a huge target, the stealth side of things will help you stay alive and manipulate your army from the shadows. And if you do dip 2 into rogue you can throw out your spells and use cunning action to slink back into the shadows.

[RulesJD]

Necromancy school as a whole is not evil...however, spells that create undead specifically are

Not every necromancer is evil...because not every necromancer creates undead. Getting extra HP from Vampiric Touch is perfectly fine

Only if cast frequently. Is casting it twice per day too frequent? What about a dozen times? 100?

So still good to go on Necromancy spells that create undead even by AL rules.

And I think it's still good to have this discussion for anyone who finds this thread later when seeking out how to best play a Necromancer, considering they are the only practical minion class in the game.

Any recommendations for dice rolling apps?

[Joe dirt]

despite the alignment issues, personally i would slowly adjust your alignment over time toward lawful evil if you continued to animate skeletons and sneak them around in a cart and use them as your assassins... these are not the acts of a chaotic good character

but despite the alignment issue the main issue is how to maximize so here are some more suggestions,

1. put the undead in plate mail and completely cover their faces, arms and extremities, the enemy wont know immediately they are undead nor will the town folk

2. the spell does not specifically say what undead no longer under your control do. it does say describe what they do when not given a command, they defend themselves but this is while they are still under your control. personally i would rule that uncontrolled undead want to "feed" now under my ruling you can create an undead hoard you just cant control them so invisibility would protect you while you release a pack of hungry zombies and any DM that is a fan of walking dead would also allow this.

[RulesJD]

despite the alignment issues, personally i would slowly adjust your alignment over time toward lawful evil if you continued to animate skeletons and sneak them around in a cart and use them as your assassins... these are not the acts of a chaotic good character

but despite the alignment issue the main issue is how to maximize so here are some more suggestions,

1. put the undead in plate mail and completely cover their faces, arms and extremities, the enemy wont know immediately they are undead nor will the town folk

2. the spell does not specifically say what undead no longer under your control do. it does say describe what they do when not given a command, they defend themselves but this is while they are still under your control. personally i would rule that uncontrolled undead want to "feed" now under my ruling you can create an undead hoard you just cant control them so invisibility would protect you while you release a pack of hungry zombies and any DM that is a fan of walking dead would also allow this.

Long story short about his background, he was a hired killed, then died, then was resurrected by some crazy people summoning and fighting some demon lords above his grave (I like tying characters together so he's a throwback to OotA).

Fluff aside, I wasn't sure about spending money to armor them up. They don't have proficiency in anything and their AC doesn't account for the shield their picture displays. I also thought about upgrading their weapons because they at least have to have proficiency in Shortswords and Shortbows.

The other problem is the Str requirement for heavy armor isn't possible with Skeletons, but possible with Zombies. Again there's no indication of their proficiency but I imagine leather/studded leather wouldn't be out of the question, maybe even medium armor. It would get costly quick but would up their survivability by a lot, especially for Zombies.

As for what Skeletons/Zombies do after the spell wears off, here is the entry from the MM:

"Habitual Behaviors. Independent skeletons temporarily or permanently free of a master's control sometimes pantomime actions from their past lives, their bones echoing the rote behaviors of their former living selves. The skeleton of a miner might lift a pick and start chipping away at stone walls. The skeleton of a guard might strike up a post at a random doorway. The skeleton of a dragon might lie down on a pile of treasure, while the skeleton of a horse crops grass it can't eat. Left alone in a ballroom, the skeletons of nobles might continue an eternally unfinished dance. When skeletons encounter living creatures, the necromantic energy that drives them compels them to kill unless they are commanded by their masters to refrain from doing so. They attack without mercy and fight until destroyed, for skeletons possess little sense of self and even less sense of self-preservation."

The first underlined text is pretty interesting, but the last one indicates that they will likely be hostile unless sequestered away somewhere safe, like a grave they dig themselves.

[JackPhoenix]

The first underlined text is pretty interesting, but the last one indicates that they will likely be hostile unless sequestered away somewhere safe, like a grave they dig themselves.

Problem is that you must renew the control every 24 hours, once it expires, you can't use Animate Dead to regain it and must depend on some other method, which generally aren't as efficient and are single target only. So you can't have them dig in, then excavate them week later after you finish your visit in town and have them under control again.

And yes, as far as I'm concerned, casting Animate Dead every day is frequent use. Animating something in battle time from time is fine, keeping undead permanently under your control isn't.

Proficiencies are interesting question. In absence of any rules, I'd say they get either the proficiencies they had in life (skeletons, given the text you've quoted) or the necromancer's proficiencies (zombies, as they are less independant and pretty much only remote controlled tools)

[JoeJ]

@JoeJ: I believe Non-Evil Necromancers (or whatever, if you guys insist, necromancers that try their best to work for the society and protect the people but somehow are still considered evil-alignment) are like the executives of a nuclear energy plant system. It's a dangerous force and it can get lots of people into trouble if they get something wrong, and a lot of people don't like it because of it. But the executives themselves think it's a good thing for the society and they try their best to control it (well, of course, it occasionally goes wrong even so).

A nuclear power plant that has no containment structure (unless you build a castle or something, and never have your undead leave it), that you have to run entirely by yourself with no automation, that you can't ever delegate to anybody else, that goes out of control if you miss a single day's work, and that you can't regain control of once you lose it.

[wunderkid]

A nuclear power plant that has no containment structure (unless you build a castle or something, and never have your undead leave it), that you have to run entirely by yourself with no automation, that you can't ever delegate to anybody else, that goes out of control if you miss a single day's work, and that you can't regain control of once you lose it.

You're taking the similarities way way too literally here. It's something that has an inherent level of danger associated with it that if not properly cared for could go out of control and cause damage. He wasn't calling undead nuclear...

[JoeJ]

You're taking the similarities way way too literally here. It's something that has an inherent level of danger associated with it that if not properly cared for could go out of control and cause damage. He wasn't calling undead nuclear...

And I'm saying that, while the maximum damage might be lower, it's much harder to do safely than running a nuclear power plant. If you want to compare Animate Dead to nuclear power from an ethical standpoint, then the necromancer has to do everything in their power to keep the undead from being able to injure anybody, which pretty much rules out walking around the countryside with them.

[Tanarii]

1. Response: Specific beats General in 5e.Yes you can tell a DM that. And they can disagree with you and tell your character is not AL legal, because the character is doing something that the PHB says is evil. Then you'd have to appeal that decision after having the character denied at the table. It sounds like you're okay with taking that risk though.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Yes you can tell a DM that. And they can disagree with you and tell your character is not AL legal, because the character is doing something that the PHB says is evil. Then you'd have to appeal that decision after having the character denied at the table. It sounds like you're okay with taking that risk though.


I'd like to point out that the side bar you are referring to has this statement at the very beginning:


The schools of magic help describe spells; they have no
rules of their own, although some rules refer to the schools.


Also

Creating the undead through the use of necromancy spells
such as animate dead is not a good act, and only evil casters
use such spells frequently.

Does not say you become evil when you cast it. It just says that evil casters use the spells with frequency.
There is no hard rule on this.

[Tanarii]

Does not say you become evil when you cast it. It just says that evil casters use the spells with frequency.
There is no hard rule on this.Sure. I think it definitely *wasn't* intended as a hard rule. I think it was intended to let players know "hey if you're playing a good character, you shouldn't create undead regularly, because that'd be out of character." That's what the entire rest of the Alignment rules work like. They effectively tell you "hey, here's this general behavior you should take into account if you're playing X alignment in character." But they aren't hard rules.

But leaving something open to DM interpretation is dicey in AL if it's going to be the basis for your entire character. (When I started this I was just arguing an academic point. Then I switched to pointing out that it's a potential risk to take in AL.)

[RulesJD]

Yes you can tell a DM that. And they can disagree with you and tell your character is not AL legal, because the character is doing something that the PHB says is evil. Then you'd have to appeal that decision after having the character denied at the table. It sounds like you're okay with taking that risk though.

There is precisely 0 danger of AL making my character illegal, and any DM who tries to do so will be reported to their respective LC/RC for guidance or, if they choose to ignore that guidance, removal from ability to DM AL legal games.

The PHB does not say that casting Animate Dead is illegal by AL rules (see text I quoted + lack of frequency), nor does it say that Necromancers are banned (as they did with other races/classes), nor does it say any spells at all are banned from the authorized sources.

Worst case scenario, I simply change my alignment to Lawful Evil, I'm already a member of the Lord's Alliance, and I'm 100% good to go even with DMs that want to declare my character evil. Doesn't change how I will play the character at all.

Still looking for recommended Apps for tracking multiple attack/damage rolls.

Another thought is to assign 1 skeleton/zombie to the party Rogue/blasters and have their standing order be to "provide the Help action at whatever target they designate". Also, they can administer Health Potions so I can have one or two have standing orders to use their Action to pour it down the party member's throat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hyperbolic opinion: taking fluff ("only evil characters use these spells!"), especially the intentionally bland setting neutral stuff in the PHB, ESPECIALLY as it relates to something as subjective as alignment, as hard-and-fast rules is actively offensive to the idea of roleplaying. The book says "try playing like this;" interpreting that as "all characters must play like this or be invalid" is tyranny of the worst kind. So much great characterization comes from contradictions, defying stereotypes and playing against type, and you want to erase that? :smallangry:

AL mildly affects things, I suppose, insofar as it does do a lot of the above. I might write down LE just to avoid arguments and play your character as you see him anyway.



Another thought is to assign 1 skeleton/zombie to the party Rogue/blasters and have their standing order be to "provide the Help action at whatever target they designate". Also, they can administer Health Potions so I can have one or two have standing orders to use their Action to pour it down the party member's throat.
On topic idea: assign undead to other players to control in combat. Not in any official rules-based capacity, but just to ease the burden of playing all your mooks.

[Theodoxus]

Worst case scenario, I simply change my alignment to Lawful Evil, I'm already a member of the Lord's Alliance, and I'm 100% good to go even with DMs that want to declare my character evil. Doesn't change how I will play the character at all.

:smalleek::smallconfused:

Your character is CG, and you're ok with being labeled LE because it won't change how you play the character, at all...

So, in your mind, Chaotic Good is the equivalent playstyle as Lawful Evil... You, my friend, care as much about alignment labels as I do. It's simply a tag for other players to look at and argue over...

[RulesJD]

:smalleek::smallconfused:

Your character is CG, and you're ok with being labeled LE because it won't change how you play the character, at all...

So, in your mind, Chaotic Good is the equivalent playstyle as Lawful Evil... You, my friend, care as much about alignment labels as I do. It's simply a tag for other players to look at and argue over...

No, I just care less about opinions of DMs that don't bother to check the actual AL guidelines. I have the alignment in my head for my character, CG, but if a DM at an event I actually care about wants to throw a hissyfit then he'll be LE on paper. Just like Paladins that take levels of Warlock, Clerics who go against their deity, et al examples of players going against PURELY FLUFF wording of the book. No idea why people get so hung up on Necromancers when there are literally dozens of other examples. You can say its the wording of the PHB, but we've already shot down that argument with wording that specifically states you can still be a Good or Neutral aligned character and still cast Animate Dead, etc.

So does no one use a dice rolling app?

[Segev]

So does no one use a dice rolling app?I only use an electronic dice-roller when gaming online. Usually this is on IRC, so we use dicebots there. When I play on rpol, I use their innate dice roller.

IRL, I use real dice, because I have them and they're more fun, for me.

[RulesJD]

I only use an electronic dice-roller when gaming online. Usually this is on IRC, so we use dicebots there. When I play on rpol, I use their innate dice roller.

IRL, I use real dice, because I have them and they're more fun, for me.

Completely agree. I even bought a really nice set of metal dice. But when 8 skeletons are rolling at advantage, that gets a little cumbersome and I don't want to bog down combat. One alternative is to simply use half the number of d20s, but that can get super swingy. I used to do that for Animate Objects spell (roll 3d20s and have 1 of them represent 4 of the objects), and wasn't terribly satisfied.

[Theodoxus]

I only use an electronic dice-roller when gaming online. Usually this is on IRC, so we use dicebots there. When I play on rpol, I use their innate dice roller.

IRL, I use real dice, because I have them and they're more fun, for me.

Pretty much this. There are a lot of free dice apps though, they probably all use the same generator, so finding one that does what you need shouldn't be difficult...

[Tanarii]

Your character is CG, and you're ok with being labeled LE because it won't change how you play the character, at all...No, he's right. Alignment as 5e intends it to be used, and Alignment as it can be enforced in AL are two separate things. In fact, Alignment how AL intends it to be used and how it can be enforced are probably two different things.

Alignment in 5e is intended to be a guideline to help you in Roleplaying your character. Using the term Roleplaying classically, ie making decisions in character. It's one of many tools to help you get in character. Then when you're in character, you make decisions. Alignment helps you be get in character in regards to certain moral and social attitudes.

I'm sure the Alignment restriction in AL is effectively intended to be the same. It's basically saying : Don't Roleplay a character that exhibits the general behavior of a Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil character (which are in the PHB). But in terms of the ability to enforce, it's almost impossible to nail a player to consistently roleplaying such a behavior, unless they're egregious. So what it says on the character sheet is what really matters, so long as you're not a ****.

If he generally acts with behavior consistent with that described for CG, and his character sheet says LE, even if a DM wants to get persnickety about Necromancy being Evil, he's got all his bases covered. It's against the whole idea of 5e Alignment since it's supposed to be a helpful tool, not a restriction. But unfortunately that's the reality of restricting player alignments by name instead of saying "don't choose to roleplay an alignment that makes your character act like a ****".



I have the alignment in my head for my character, CG, but if a DM at an event I actually care about wants to throw a hissyfit then he'll be LE on paper.Lol said it 1/10th the words I did.

[Segev]

Completely agree. I even bought a really nice set of metal dice. But when 8 skeletons are rolling at advantage, that gets a little cumbersome and I don't want to bog down combat. One alternative is to simply use half the number of d20s, but that can get super swingy. I used to do that for Animate Objects spell (roll 3d20s and have 1 of them represent 4 of the objects), and wasn't terribly satisfied.

For this, I would hand the dice to other players so that they're all involved, if you can.

An app is honestly not any faster than rolling all the dice together. You still have to check all the numbers. Having other players roll for them both increases the likelihood you have enough dice (they'll each have their own) and makes calculation faster (parallelizing it so they're calculating for "their" skeletons). Plus, they're now involved, so they're not "waiting around" on your turn.

[RulesJD]

For this, I would hand the dice to other players so that they're all involved, if you can.

An app is honestly not any faster than rolling all the dice together. You still have to check all the numbers. Having other players roll for them both increases the likelihood you have enough dice (they'll each have their own) and makes calculation faster (parallelizing it so they're calculating for "their" skeletons). Plus, they're now involved, so they're not "waiting around" on your turn.

Hadn't thought of having other players roll but that's a really good idea.

As for the app, I was hoping to have multiple rolls at once and then just go down the vs. AC amounts in descending order until one didn't hit, and disregard the rest. Can do it in roll20 pretty easily but that's not terribly practical for a table when not every place as wifi available.

[JellyPooga]

For this, I would hand the dice to other players so that they're all involved, if you can.

That's a remarkably interesting solution; instead of one character having responsibility for tracking the numbers and rolls of a dozen minions (or however many you have), divide the minions among the party; not only does it reduce the book-keeping any one individual has to track, but also gives the other players a feeling of being involved on the otherwise and comparatively long "minionmancer" turn.

Wouldn't work for all groups, I shouldn't think (it'd be awful in my regular group, for example...most of the players in my local meta have trouble keeping tabs on their own characters, let alone a bunch of skele's or zombies as well), but for experienced players, this could work very well.

[Segev]

When all else fails, if the player(s) designated to run the numbers for the minions can't or won't do it well, just assign "their" minion to do the Help action or otherwise do something that doesn't involve die rolling.

Giving out index cards with the relevant "cheat sheet" stats for combat would probably help, too, especially at a convention-type table (the only place I do organized play is at conventions; I understand it happens elsewhere, but that's the time I can think of when unknown elements will most likely be at the table with you).

[RulesJD]

When all else fails, if the player(s) designated to run the numbers for the minions can't or won't do it well, just assign "their" minion to do the Help action or otherwise do something that doesn't involve die rolling.

Giving out index cards with the relevant "cheat sheet" stats for combat would probably help, too, especially at a convention-type table (the only place I do organized play is at conventions; I understand it happens elsewhere, but that's the time I can think of when unknown elements will most likely be at the table with you).

I figured telling them "Roll a d20 (or two if advantage/disadvantage) and add +4 to the result. What's the numbers you rolled?" then just keep track in my head or on paper how many hits according to the DM. Or if we find out the AC, just have them roll the d20, add 4, and tell me if it's above X value. I'll roll the damage myself since that's a lot easier.

[MaxWilson]

I figured telling them "Roll a d20 (or two if advantage/disadvantage) and add +4 to the result. What's the numbers you rolled?" then just keep track in my head or on paper how many hits according to the DM. Or if we find out the AC, just have them roll the d20, add 4, and tell me if it's above X value. I'll roll the damage myself since that's a lot easier.

Or just take average damage as printed in the MM. I find that saves a lot of time.