Selling your soul for a sandwich

[Bobby Baratheon]

If an evil or morally grey character wants to sell his soul in a pact with devils, as per the rules in Fiend Folio II, is there any way to back out outside of winning a trial with the devils? Also, I'm not really digging the automatic Lawful Evil assignment of making a Pact Certain, though I suppose a Pact Insidious might be better. Would it be unreasonable to simply move the character one step closer to LE on both the Good/Evil and the Law/Chaos axis? I think that would make a little more sense (to me, at least), especially with extenuating circumstances. Also, any general suggestions on how to run a Faustian side-plot would be appreciated.

[thethird]

Is it a psionic sandwich?

[MisterKaws]

Killing them usually works.

[A.A.King]

I don't know the rules perse but in real life there are only really three ways to get out of a contract.
1) Get the other party to let you out
2) Prove to the body of law that is supposed to enforce the contract that the contract is null and void
3) Get rid of the other party as well as anyone who might be able to take his/her place

When making deals with devils the third option is a little bit ambitious and the secobd one you already mention which leaves us with the first one (which incidentally also gives you a nice plothook)

The Devil in question might need the PC to do something, something he can't do nor ask a different devil to take care of. When the PC finally starts to realise what he gave away the devil will come to him with a second deal, the PC just needs to do this little thing for him and they'll pretend like thr first deal never happened (bonus evil-DM points if after the quest is done you take away any boon the PC got from the first contract seeing as that one "never happened")

[Bobby Baratheon]

It would be kind of fun to make them go corrupt other people for a chance to save their own soul. That would be deliciously diabolic. Or make them go retrieve a hair from Asmodeous' head or something ridiculous like that. That'd have almost a mythological vibe to it (go do this impossible task so I can laugh at your failure).

[daremetoidareyo]

I would leave their alignment mostly intact and just guarantee that they go to hell when they die. This of course, changes depending on the nature of the pact, and what else the devils want in return. What they are doing is an evil act, so if they exchange their soul, for say, a sandwich, NBD, they just go to hell when they die. Soul for a sandwich is a good deal for a devil.

If they make a deal for 100 fighters to take over a castle, well then the pact has consequences outside of the person, and therefor may ding the alignment of the pact maker. The pact maker may need to spill some innocent blood to get what they desire, and boy oh boy, Devils sure are good at spilling innocent blood. That trade will definitely have some alignment impact, assuming the pact maker doesn't keep a tight reign on his devil fighters.

I definitely wouldn't touch the law to chaos axis, though. Making a deal for one's enlightened self interest is neither inherently lawful or chaotic. And devils are far more trustworthy on following through with their end of the bargain. A demon could just walk off with your money and your head.

[Troacctid]

Someone else could sell their soul in exchange for yours.

[Nuada99]

If the player is actively seeking a devil to make a deal with, I think there should be an alignment hit. I think your idea of moving them a step closer to LE is appropriate. No need to move them all the way to LE if that's more than one step. Instead, give them opportunities to see the error of their ways.

I think the only reason any player would really seek out a deal like this is because they think there won't be consequences, or at least, none that affect the character's usefulness. I would strongly urge you to prove them wrong. Some example ideas:

- animals instinctively mistrust them (all ride, handle animal and any other animal empathy-type acts at -4)
- plants die in their presence after a while
- occasionally, they think they see devils watching them

Once you've laid the groundwork, if the above things don't convince them that maybe their deal wasn't so great, feel free to ramp it up a little:

- everyone distrusts them, and gets a bonus to sense motive checks against them
- merchants think they're thieves or there to rob or assault them. They'd rather call the watch than sell anything to them.
- the city watch keeps an eye on everything they do in town


If even that doesn't work, start to really bring it home:

- people accuse them of being devils, or witches or demons, and strongly suggest maybe they should be burned to death
- they never succeed on a diplomacy or bluff check. Ever.
- everyone starts out one category lower in friendliness towards this character, sometimes becoming immediately hostile for no apparent reason
- they are constantly cursed with dangerously bad luck. Every time they roll a 1, some sort of calamity occurs, either to them or people near them. This can be an accidental fire, spilling acid all over the place, causing wagons to crash into each other (injuring passers-by, anyone in the cart, etc. and generally making everyone mad), etc.
- all their food and water turns black and sour and maybe even a little toxic, as does any food within, say, a city block of them


There's no need to make them unplayable, but really make it a miserable experience. And none of these even have anything to do with not having a soul, per se, simply being tainted by a devil's charms, and people subconsciously noticing it.

Ultimately, while the devil will abide by its contract, it doesn't need to be particularly fair about anything else. Devils (at least in my opinion) collect souls not because they're some sort of power source or whatever, but to sow despair and make people more subservient, easier to control, manipulate and dominate. Lemures are basically the perfect human, as far as devils are concerned, so they're the model. Losing your soul puts you on the express train to Lemure-dom. Have fun with that!

[Bobby Baratheon]

I definitely wouldn't touch the law to chaos axis, though. Making a deal for one's enlightened self interest is neither inherently lawful or chaotic. And devils are far more trustworthy on following through with their end of the bargain. A demon could just walk off with your money and your head.

The only reason I'm moving it along the Law Axis is that the rules state that making a Pact Certain (aka a straight up, tit-for-tat deal with the proverbial/literal devil) is inherently a Lawful Evil act, and automatically moves them to LE if they weren't already. I think that's excessive, especially since part of devils' whole schtick is that they gradually, deceptively lead you down to hell. I think that's better represented by moving one step towards LE on both axis than simply stating "you're now lawful evil". You could fluff it as devilish influence, or simply that the character's lawful and evil tendencies are being reinforced. If you're making a deal with the devil, you probably have at least some lawful evil tendencies beneath the veneer of whatever your current alignment is.

With regards to someone else selling their soul for yours, it'd be kind of tricky to pull off. I don't think it counts if you compel the person (though, technically, it only says the devil involved is not allowed to compel the person. IIRC, the rules mention nothing about a third party [ie you] sweetening the pot or giving them extra incentive).

That could be an interesting side plot as well - work for some evil dude who hasn't sold his soul yet on the condition that he sell his soul for yours provided that you help him accomplish his nefarious goals. Or, if you're really an ###hole, bamboozle some schmuck into doing it for you. Start with diplomancy to soften them up, then tell them you desperately need their help. You need your soul ransomed, and you can spin some BS about them being pure enough to avoid going to the Nine Hells and saving you in the process. Or, if the loophole on you compelling people is valid, just threaten to burn down their village or something. That kind of behavior might get to the Nine Hells on your own merit, though.

EDIT: With regards to the sandwich, IMO only a reuben with copious sauerkraut and corned beef would worth an eternity of sadistic, excruciating torment. Speak of the devil, talking about reubens is making me hungry. . . PAZUZU PAZUZU PAZUZ-

[Troacctid]

Yeah, but being sent to the Nine Hells on your own merits is still better than being sent there because a devil owns your soul. In the former case, you can still be raised or resurrected; in the latter case, you can't.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Yeah, but being sent to the Nine Hells on your own merits is still better than being sent there because a devil owns your soul. In the former case, you can still be raised or resurrected; in the latter case, you can't.
That's true, and I don't think the devils would even care all that much, since you're clearly not on the side of truth and right and are probably just going to further their agenda by being released back into the wild.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If an evil or morally grey character wants to sell his soul in a pact with devils, as per the rules in Fiend Folio II, is there any way to back out outside of winning a trial with the devils?

If you knowingly and willingly sell your soul to a devil, the only thing that can save you is somebody else buying your soul and setting it free. The only thing a devil would even consider selling a soul he's got dead-to-rights like that for is another, more valuable soul. The trial only comes into play if there's any ambiguity in the contract where you can argue the devil didn't uphold his end.


Also, I'm not really digging the automatic Lawful Evil assignment of making a Pact Certain, though I suppose a Pact Insidious might be better. Would it be unreasonable to simply move the character one step closer to LE on both the Good/Evil and the Law/Chaos axis? I think that would make a little more sense (to me, at least), especially with extenuating circumstances. Also, any general suggestions on how to run a Faustian side-plot would be appreciated.

A) The pact insidious is always better. You get more for your payment out of it regardless and have an exit in simply abandoning the contract at any point, in exchange for losing the benefits.

B) Signing a pact certain is more than just writing your name on the dotted line. You're actively, willingly, and knowingly signing a pledge of fealty to one of the lords of the nine. You get a signing bonus but you've just dedicated yourself, utterly, to the cause of baator in a pact that is magically backed by the collective forces of Law itself. It would have to be one -hell- of a prize to make it something to even consider if you're not -already- either lawful, evil, or both unless you're just dumber than a bag of hammers. There's also no getting out of it, period, unless some outside force actively prevents the devil from coming through on his end with the signing bonus. That's why you are immediately, magically shifted to LE when you sign. So, no, it would not be appropriate to lessen the alignment shift, IMO.

Here's an outline for how I'd try to angle a devil-themed adventure into the game.

Make a plot-hook in this direction; remember that harvester devils don't act openly as devils in any place that's not already a damnation factory of a settlement.

You can get players involved with one by having him active in the nearby area. Rumors of people mysteriously dying shortly after some apparent stroke of good fortune should draw some attention. The players investigate these rumors and find out that people in the area are doing unusually well, the recent 'accidents' not withstanding, and largely attribute their good fortune to the newcomer in town. He and his entourage (a few cultists or other disguised devils) showed up and started making deals with people. He does something to help you and then you owe him a favor. He -always- comes through on his end and most of his favors are just little things; strange, sometimes, but minor.

Opportunity A: the players go to the fellow directly. He offers to make them a deal; he'll help you figure out what's going on with the mysterious deaths (try not to smile to predatory here) and then you owe him a favor, same as anyone else. If they all refuse (perhaps viewing him as a suspect) then he asks if there's anything else they might be willing to deal for need help with but further refusal is met with a shrug and a "well then just remember me if you ever change your mind."

Continuing on: whether the players go directly to the harvester or not, they continue to investigate the deaths. It turns out they were all amongst the first people to begin making deals with the newcomer. It also becomes apparent, if the players dig long enough, that they've all been acting a little strange lately. They've been a bit more stingy in their dealings with others or just generally less kind than normal. Some may even have been involved in some unpleasantness before their untimely demises. (They were following the harvesters 'requests' and gradually becoming more lawful and evil until they were damned, then killed).

Opportunity B: the players approach the harvester with questions regarding the deceased. In particular they ask pointed questions about their strange behavior and what the deal-maker knows about it. He, of course, simply explains that he had been asking them to help with some other deals that were made and denies that he had anything to do with any evil acts they may have committed (perhaps feign shock and horror that they may have done something untoward in executing his 'requests' here). He then spins his offer to 'help' with the investigation in whatever way he can. He doesn't offer them any further deals if they refuse.

Fork A: The PC's accept the harvester's aid in their investigation. The harvester misdirects them into picking a bogus suspect as the source of the accidents. With luck, they'll take the bait and go bother that guy. Be sure to leave clues here in having the bogus suspect be completely unrelated to one of the accident victims, have him be investigating the accidents independently, or show him to be a genuinely upstanding, if gruff, kind of guy; DM's choice.

Fork B: The PC's refuse to accept the harvester's aid. Send NPC thugs after them, preferably some of the people that have been dealing with the harvester for nearly as long as the deceased but hired thugs or allied devils will do.

Fork A could lead to the PC's either whacking the guy that was posing a problem for the harvester or realizing that the guy isn't actually responsible for the strange behavior or accidents. In either case, or after taking down the thugs sent after them in fork B, another accident occurs.

Further investigation leads back around to the harvester. If they're uncertain that he's actually the cause of things, he can try to weasel out of it and either throw them another red-herring or try to have them whacked again and you cycle back around.

If they -are- certain that he's the problem, he'll still try to weasel out of a conflict but if he succeeds in avoiding a fight he'll duck town for a more fortified base of operations nearby and start -actively- trying to kill the PC's, BBEG style. Insert standard dungeon-crawl with cultists and devils for encounters here.

[ganondorf50]

Someone else could sell their soul in exchange for yours.

that still damn's the person who sold the other soul to begin with, have them find the loophole or better yet the devil holding the contract and destroy it but make it very hard

[ganondorf50]

If the player is actively seeking a devil to make a deal with, I think there should be an alignment hit. I think your idea of moving them a step closer to LE is appropriate. No need to move them all the way to LE if that's more than one step. Instead, give them opportunities to see the error of their ways.

I think the only reason any player would really seek out a deal like this is because they think there won't be consequences, or at least, none that affect the character's usefulness. I would strongly urge you to prove them wrong. Some example ideas:

- animals instinctively mistrust them (all ride, handle animal and any other animal empathy-type acts at -4)
- plants die in their presence after a while
- occasionally, they think they see devils watching them

Once you've laid the groundwork, if the above things don't convince them that maybe their deal wasn't so great, feel free to ramp it up a little:

- everyone distrusts them, and gets a bonus to sense motive checks against them
- merchants think they're thieves or there to rob or assault them. They'd rather call the watch than sell anything to them.
- the city watch keeps an eye on everything they do in town


If even that doesn't work, start to really bring it home:

- people accuse them of being devils, or witches or demons, and strongly suggest maybe they should be burned to death
- they never succeed on a diplomacy or bluff check. Ever.
- everyone starts out one category lower in friendliness towards this character, sometimes becoming immediately hostile for no apparent reason
- they are constantly cursed with dangerously bad luck. Every time they roll a 1, some sort of calamity occurs, either to them or people near them. This can be an accidental fire, spilling acid all over the place, causing wagons to crash into each other (injuring passers-by, anyone in the cart, etc. and generally making everyone mad), etc.
- all their food and water turns black and sour and maybe even a little toxic, as does any food within, say, a city block of them


There's no need to make them unplayable, but really make it a miserable experience. And none of these even have anything to do with not having a soul, per se, simply being tainted by a devil's charms, and people subconsciously noticing it.

Ultimately, while the devil will abide by its contract, it doesn't need to be particularly fair about anything else. Devils (at least in my opinion) collect souls not because they're some sort of power source or whatever, but to sow despair and make people more subservient, easier to control, manipulate and dominate. Lemures are basically the perfect human, as far as devils are concerned, so they're the model. Losing your soul puts you on the express train to Lemure-dom. Have fun with that!

I just want to personally say I agree with this but make it subtle keep doing it say they see them out of the corner of their eyes they see stuff in mirrors. They bleed black, all kinds of fun stuff you can do when messing with devils and demons.

[daremetoidareyo]

Yeah, but being sent to the Nine Hells on your own merits is still better than being sent there because a devil owns your soul. In the former case, you can still be raised or resurrected; in the latter case, you can't.

This makes for a really neat cultural construction of hell. Let's assume that any given soul in hell has a spontaneous chance of becoming a lemure. In the "wild" of hell, the lemures are free roaming entities. But, if it generally understood and legal for a devil to own a soul, they would keep pens full of them. The stronger and more conniving the devil, the bigger the soul pits. As the workings of hell proceed, the devil that owns the most souls has the highest per day chance of spontaneously generating an underling. As that underling advances, it can ascend (descend) the devil heirarchy, getting more HD and sweet abilities. Once you get strong enough, you can gate in your underlings.

Sometimes, on a layer, there are hugely powerful devil empires of devils who capitalized on exactly this. Entire heirarchies of devils loyal to a single leader.

These empires subjugate wide swaths of hell territory. But those "wild" free operator devils will, Like the ancient Celts, develop a system of clans where they, as free enterprisers, will pool their soul resources (with contracts stipulating terms) in order to resist the subjugation of their territory to the empires and Archdukes. Sometimes, particularly powerful clans will engage in treaties and other behaviors in order to maintain a steady access to souls, because this is seen as direct access to power, or the potential of it anyway.

Some groups may specialize in soul acquisition, which they trade in super tight contracts for favors and access to certain services rendered by those they trade with. These groups can be hired, often for extreme prices, (x amount of souls for the transfer of certain number of devils for future projects).

So the hell system is system of perfect economical functioning, where souls are the currency because the represent a real possibility to generate "manpower" hours of work. Seeing as how devils fall into line really well, the subjugated devils accept this structure until such a time that they may bargain their freedom or equality.

So absolutely, a soul should be able to be bargained for, even after it has entered possession of a devil. One devil may pass it off onto another.

But the thing about planar binding and randomly summoning a devil is that you don't really choose which specific devil you get, nor do you get all of the context of their position in hell's regional heirarchies. You could snag a standard bearer for a wild devil lord, and you are offering them an additional chance, (one more soul that they become owner of) to spontaneously generate their very own slave. All they need to do is set that slave to their tasks, or trade that slaves labor for other benefits that directly benefit their quality of life.

But that's if you get a guy in a clan. What if you summon a really powerful regional game changer? They will be impatient with any deal that results in a single soul. Imagine them as wall street brokers, they only apply effort in a given situation to gain the most return. How dare a puny mortal schmuck, with barely a thing of value to offer, calls you up to waste your time with some schmaltzy need to be met, and only offering a single soul? This devil demands the corruption of more people in its bargaining, and is highly unlikely to settle for a single soul.

This is reason for any devil with the access to spread their own truename in mortal books! Especially if they aren't really established as devil lords yet. Heck, I'm sure certain clans of devils have pacts and contracts called "prime material clauses" wherein any devil granted access to a prime material plane is required to spread and/or gate other associated devils for certain tasks, under the auspice that this becomes an opportunity to gain access to more souls.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I am liking these ideas . . . I still think I'm scrapping the total alignment change in favor of a one step shift on the Good/Evil axis and the Law/Chaos axis, with further condemnation/possible redemption depending on the player. I'm viewing it more as a straight up exchange with conditions rather than an oath of fealty. As a DM, I'd be inclined to represent those differently. I think there's a difference between someone interesting in selling their soul for temporal benefits and someone straight up pledging loyalty to the cause of the devils. The text may or may not reflect that viewpoint, but that's how I'm interpreting it as a DM. In the latter case, you would absolutely become lawful evil, though I'd probably require that someone looking to be a servant of devils already be either lawful or evil. Devil's seem, to me, unlikely to accept an oath of loyalty from someone that they feel they can't depend on (non-lawful) and who's goals are too divergent from their own (non-evil). The pacts seem like they'd be a good way to corrupt people to that point, though.

So, in summary, from my thoughts so far,
-Pact certain/insidious is, as the text suggests, for rubes. People who want some sort of benefit for selling their souls, and are arrogant/stupid enough to think they can get the upper hand on literal incarnations of Law and Evil. This (in my interpretation) does not imply loyalty to the devils, but the contract must be honored, and there's almost certainly devilishly (sorry, couldn't resist the temptation) cunning fine print that allows the devil to further exploit the rube.
-Oaths of fealty are more of an individual basis, with stringent evaluations based on merit. After all, these are mortal agents of the lords of Baator. They'd better be d*mned good to keep their jobs and match up to the standards of their overlords, so they're not going to accept a formal oath or service from any schmuck. They might accept loyalty from cultists or whatnot, but it's not a formal obligation on the devils' part and the cultists are at best tools in the devilish arsenal.
-The soul-pits seems, to me, to be a rather sensible model. It explains why devils need souls; demons are literally infinite, and devils aren't. They need to get soldiers from somewhere, and this provides an excellent way to do that without shaking up the existing power structure in Baator. This also means that souls are less individually valuable except as "collector's items". Under this interpretation, having a fallen paladin's soul has no more practical benefits than having the soul of some random goblin (excluding bragging rights). Unless, of course, formerly good souls are more powerful and thus worth more. Heck, I might even rule that more powerful (ie former good souls) spawn more powerful demons, explaining why devils spend so much time and effort to corrupt the pure in heart. There's a 95% chance I'm going to implement this in my campaign; the players haven't interacted with any outsiders yet, so they won't even know the difference. Anyone have any other ideas expanding on this interpretation?

Also, with regards to spawning, I'm imagining something like the Uruk-hai pits from FOTR. Probably not all that similar, but the image of some imps pulling a nascent pit fiend out a cesspool of soul goop is pretty funny.

EDIT: To clarify on the "good souls = more valuable/powerful" idea, I'm thinking that there's simply a higher chance that the spawned fiend of a stronger variety than lemure. I'd probably also rule that evil souls have a much, much smaller chance of manifesting as a stronger variety of devil.

[Troacctid]

-Pact certain/insidious is, as the text suggests, for rubes.
Well, from a player's perspective, it's actually a great deal. You get free stuff, and all you have to do in exchange is change your alignment and give up the possibility of being resurrected. That just means if you die, you toss your PC away to suffer eternal torment and roll up a new one. It's only a fictional character, so hey, no sweat off your back. As for the alignment shift, well, you weren't playing a Paladin anyway, and it doesn't necessitate any other behavioral change, so who cares?

[Bobby Baratheon]

Yeah, there's not much incentive for a player not to take it, honestly. Unless you're really attached to that character, and even then getting them out of the Nine Hells is quite accomplishment. Especially if you can get free stuff (like 2 feats). It's a pretty good deal all round, but I doubt (as a DM) that I would ever let players take it just for optimization. Your character should at least have some reason why he's selling his immortal soul to physical incarnations of Evil and Law, and it should definitely be a better reason than more pluses.

[daremetoidareyo]

EDIT: To clarify on the "good souls = more valuable/powerful" idea, I'm thinking that there's simply a higher chance that the spawned fiend of a stronger variety than lemure. I'd probably also rule that evil souls have a much, much smaller chance of manifesting as a stronger variety of devil.

The premier devil scholars have looked into this. It's not that good souls are more powerful, it is that they provide contrast for the evil souls.

The evil souls will mercilessly pick on the good soul and degrade it. Delighting in such behavior, these evil souls get promoted faster and/or stronger. So it isn't a direct one for one, good soul for stronger devil. It is one good soul becomes the whipping boy for the evil souls surrounding it. Eventually the good souls twist and become evil themselves, but it takes way longer the purer they are. So those good souls are like steroids and fertilizer for the generating devil slave spawn operations. Good souls are highly prized because the souls that pick on and abuse them spontaneously generate into devils more often, and sometimes they skip the lemure phase of devil hood.

If a non-powerful demon gets ahold of a good soul, he will lease it out for these purposes to devils with more significant breeding pits. Sort of like how dog breeders will stud a dog and get first pick of a litter.

[Nuada99]

Yeah, there's not much incentive for a player not to take it, honestly. Unless you're really attached to that character, and even then getting them out of the Nine Hells is quite accomplishment. Especially if you can get free stuff (like 2 feats). It's a pretty good deal all round, but I doubt (as a DM) that I would ever let players take it just for optimization. Your character should at least have some reason why he's selling his immortal soul to physical incarnations of Evil and Law, and it should definitely be a better reason than more pluses.

I respectfully disagree with this. Let the player do this foolish thing. That's why we play, right? Just make the cost greater than they originally bargained for (so to speak), and either let them live with these larger consequences, or provide them a (very challenging) opportunity to set things back to rights. Either way, the game gets more interesting.

Hell definitely looks for the guys who think selling their soul won't have any impact on their day to day lives. If a power-gamer thinks this is an easy win, prove him wrong, in role-playing ways that make his life more and more difficult. He still gets his extra power boost, but it's not just a little throw-away any more. It's something that literally haunts him for the rest of his character's career.

It should probably go without saying that, if there are a lot of other players in the party who aren't considering this foolish Faustian deal, that this sort of plot derail can eat up a lot of time. You may want to let the party peer pressure the lone rube out of this course of action, if you don't want your campaign to veer too far off course. However, I infer from the OP that he's willing to go along with things, and just wants some ideas on keeping things fun and interesting afterwards.

[martixy]

I've actually thought about this.

With these contracts, they can usually be put on trial, where a clause stipulates that if you argue a successful defense, you get your soul back.
There are 2 defenses IIRC - proving the devil did not fulfil his end or that you were forced into it.

So...
1. Create a situation where the devil seemingly delivers, but in such a way, where he can't do so fully, now or anytime in the future.
So find something that is seemingly straightforward, but is beyond the powers of the devil. Use their arrogance against them. Or something...
2. Prove that you were forced into it. You might also end up having to prove that you didn't want it in the first place. Or at least that you'd never sign a pact to get whatever perks you got.
The only thing that comes to mind is shenanigans involving voluntary dominate and mindrape. Then hope nobody suspects such a ploy and has enough motivation to use wish on you. And I doubt you'd have been the first in all of existence to potentially come up with something as obvious.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I respectfully disagree with this. Let the player do this foolish thing. That's why we play, right? Just make the cost greater than they originally bargained for (so to speak), and either let them live with these larger consequences, or provide them a (very challenging) opportunity to set things back to rights. Either way, the game gets more interesting.

Hell definitely looks for the guys who think selling their soul won't have any impact on their day to day lives. If a power-gamer thinks this is an easy win, prove him wrong, in role-playing ways that make his life more and more difficult. He still gets his extra power boost, but it's not just a little throw-away any more. It's something that literally haunts him for the rest of his character's career.

It should probably go without saying that, if there are a lot of other players in the party who aren't considering this foolish Faustian deal, that this sort of plot derail can eat up a lot of time. You may want to let the party peer pressure the lone rube out of this course of action, if you don't want your campaign to veer too far off course. However, I infer from the OP that he's willing to go along with things, and just wants some ideas on keeping things fun and interesting afterwards.

To clarify, I'm not going to let them do it only if they can't provide an explanation as to why their character is doing it. It's a little inconsistent for, say, a neutral good cleric of Pelor to wake up one day and out of the blue say "Why, I think today would be a great day to sell my immortal soul for a couple of feats!" if there was no previous indication that he would be inclined to do that. I'm not saying that character couldn't make the pact, but there better be a reason why beyond 'I want more feats". It's not all that hard to come up with an in-character reason, and I'm not really going to set the bar too high. I agree with you 100% on the roleplaying part, though. That's the most elegant way to do it, in my opinion, and is why I'm throwing out the corruption/obeisance scores. They're pretty dumb to begin with (really WOTC? obeying a lawful authority you don't know is enough to set you on the path to Hell?), though the corruption score might be redeemable with some significant overhaul.

As to the other players, they're good with it. The characters themselves run the gamut of alignments from LG to CN; the player in question is a CN with some definite evil tendencies, but the other characters like him enough that I imagine they'd be willing to devote a little time to help him with his personal issues. The players don't mind so long as their characters also eventually get their time to shine.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've actually thought about this.

With these contracts, they can usually be put on trial, where a clause stipulates that if you argue a successful defense, you get your soul back.
There are 2 defenses IIRC - proving the devil did not fulfil his end or that you were forced into it.

So...
1. Create a situation where the devil seemingly delivers, but in such a way, where he can't do so fully, now or anytime in the future.
So find something that is seemingly straightforward, but is beyond the powers of the devil. Use their arrogance against them. Or something...
2. Prove that you were forced into it. You might also end up having to prove that you didn't want it in the first place. Or at least that you'd never sign a pact to get whatever perks you got.
The only thing that comes to mind is shenanigans involving voluntary dominate and mindrape. Then hope nobody suspects such a ploy and has enough motivation to use wish on you. And I doubt you'd have been the first in all of existence to potentially come up with something as obvious.

The problem with 1 is that a devil is backed by baator itself. If he can't provide the thing personally, he can go up the chain of command and, eventually, get to a point where somebody can produce a wish or dark miracle. What could you possibly ask for that the devil -couldn't- provide, as opposed to something he or his superiors -wouldn't- provide because you're not worth the cost?

[Bobby Baratheon]

I've actually thought about this.

With these contracts, they can usually be put on trial, where a clause stipulates that if you argue a successful defense, you get your soul back.
There are 2 defenses IIRC - proving the devil did not fulfil his end or that you were forced into it.

So...
1. Create a situation where the devil seemingly delivers, but in such a way, where he can't do so fully, now or anytime in the future.
So find something that is seemingly straightforward, but is beyond the powers of the devil. Use their arrogance against them. Or something...
2. Prove that you were forced into it. You might also end up having to prove that you didn't want it in the first place. Or at least that you'd never sign a pact to get whatever perks you got.
The only thing that comes to mind is shenanigans involving voluntary dominate and mindrape. Then hope nobody suspects such a ploy and has enough motivation to use wish on you. And I doubt you'd have been the first in all of existence to potentially come up with something as obvious.

The cool thing with the trial is that you don't actually have to have a case persay. You have to argue under one of those two premises, but the trial itself is resolved through three compared skill checks. You can absolutely deceive and mislead the court (and considering the court in question, I would say it's almost encouraged so long as you don't outright lie), but you have to beat the opposition, and there's always the chance the judge will just screw you over anyway regardless of whether you actually won or not.

EDIT: I think that the "were forced into it argument" only applies if the devil in question compelled you. IIRC, compelling circumstances don't exonerate you. Also, again, I may or may not just do it differently than how it's written in the book.

[Mystral]

If an evil or morally grey character wants to sell his soul in a pact with devils, as per the rules in Fiend Folio II, is there any way to back out outside of winning a trial with the devils? Also, I'm not really digging the automatic Lawful Evil assignment of making a Pact Certain, though I suppose a Pact Insidious might be better. Would it be unreasonable to simply move the character one step closer to LE on both the Good/Evil and the Law/Chaos axis? I think that would make a little more sense (to me, at least), especially with extenuating circumstances. Also, any general suggestions on how to run a Faustian side-plot would be appreciated.

If I were a GM.. not really.

I guess that you can strike up another deal with the devils and barter, say, the souls of a thousand innocents for your own soul. Or the soul of an old silver dragon. Something along those lines. Hell still comes out on top, but you get your soul back.

Other than that, I see only two possibilities of getting your soul back, either somehow forcing the devil into breaching your contract, or by somehow physically obtaining the contract and destroying it (Where the contracts are kept in hell would be up to you as a DM).

Or you could win a trial against the devil, but in those, you have only two outs, either that you were somehow tricked into the contract or that the contract wasn't fullfilled by the side of the devil. Also, those trials are usually held after the soul is already in hell. (I think that the rules are that you have to claim a trial while being processed from your arrival spot to your final "torture place". And they aren't exactly forthcoming with legal disclaimers)

Now, if someone were to sell his soul for a sandwich, I would go with the "of no sound mind at the time of making the contract" defense.

Also, Hell WILL give you a fair trial, and even an attorney. And it will actually be a competent attorney who does his best, because winning such a trial brings prestige (as it is a clear show of competence).

[Bobby Baratheon]

I guess that you can strike up another deal with the devils and barter, say, the souls of a thousand innocents for your own soul. Or the soul of an old silver dragon. Something along those lines. Hell still comes out on top, but you get your soul back.
Also, Hell WILL give you a fair trial, and even an attorney. And it will actually be a competent attorney who does his best, because winning such a trial brings prestige (as it is a clear show of competence).

That seems like a really good way to do it, and it could lead to some interesting adventures a la Captain Jack Sparrow as the character tries to buy themselves more time. Additionally, if you damn a thousand souls to save your own, you're definitely going to end up in the Nine Hells eventually unless you try to pull off some serious redemption. Being released from your contract but still hell-bound on your death could lead to a Nameless One type situation, and I think would make for a pretty great story.

Also, the trial might be "fair", but the judge certainly isn't. The text explicitly says that the judge might agree you win your case, but that on your own merits you "qualify" for Hell, and condemn you anyway. You do have a LE lawyer in your corner to oppose the LE prosecution, but the LE judge makes it rather difficult to actually get off the hook via trial.

Thanks for all the ideas, people! Keep 'em up, and I'll be damning my PCs in no time! :smallamused:

[Mystral]

You know who might have a valid opinion on this, guys? Red Fel. After all, Red Fel is our local specialist on LE things. I wonder what Red Fel would say.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You know who might have a valid opinion on this, guys? Red Fel. After all, Red Fel is our local specialist on LE things. I wonder what Red Fel would say.

I do sometimes wonder if he's setup a specific search function to look for posts with his name printed in them three times. That or if people just PM him to draw his attention to these things.

[A.A.King]

There is one more way to get out Faustian pact that doesn't really apply to standard contracts: become immortal. After all, the only downside of a Faustian pact happens after your death so the only logical solution is: Don't die. You only have to make sure that your negotiation skills are good enough to get a clause stipulating that if the Devil is in anyway responsible (either by killing you himself or subcontracting out) for your death than the contract will be considered void and your soul will return to you. After you've done that you just have to make sure you don't die (by becoming a necropolitan for example) and you'll be laughing.

[Mystral]

I do sometimes wonder if he's setup a specific search function to look for posts with his name printed in them three times. That or if people just PM him to draw his attention to these things.

He also sometimes reacts if it is written one time (usually complaining that it wasn't done properly).

[Coidzor]

The real question I have is where the devil is getting the psion sandwich in the first place.


You know who might have a valid opinion on this, guys? Red Fel. After all, Red Fel is our local specialist on LE things. I wonder what Red Fel would say.

I believe you have to intone the words thrice in a row.

Red Fel
Red Fel
Red Fel

Like so.

[Bobby Baratheon]

The Overlord himself is (maybe) coming to my humble thread? This is quite the honor. Give me a bit to tidy things up, and His Evilness will feel right at home.


I surrender and volunteer for treason.

[Red Fel]

You know who might have a valid opinion on this, guys? Red Fel. After all, Red Fel is our local specialist on LE things. I wonder what Red Fel would say.

That's three.


I do sometimes wonder if he's setup a specific search function to look for posts with his name printed in them three times. That or if people just PM him to draw his attention to these things.

It's a mystery.


I believe you have to intone the words thrice in a row.

Red Fel
Red Fel
Red Fel

Like so.

That's also three. Point made, I'm here. Flashy gif, snappy one-liner, I've arrived, let's do this.


If an evil or morally grey character wants to sell his soul in a pact with devils, as per the rules in Fiend Folio II, is there any way to back out outside of winning a trial with the devils? Also, I'm not really digging the automatic Lawful Evil assignment of making a Pact Certain, though I suppose a Pact Insidious might be better. Would it be unreasonable to simply move the character one step closer to LE on both the Good/Evil and the Law/Chaos axis? I think that would make a little more sense (to me, at least), especially with extenuating circumstances. Also, any general suggestions on how to run a Faustian side-plot would be appreciated.

Are you asking a RAW question, or a narrative question? Because I'm not a big fan of the RAW around pacts, so I won't chime in on that point.

As for narrative advice, you asked, I'll answer. Let's start with some basics.

First: Why does engaging in a pact with the Lower Planes make you more Evil? Several possible reasons, here are a few that I like. One is that dealing willingly with creatures that embody the concept of Cosmic Evil leaves a stain on your soul. I'm not as big a fan of that one. Another, which I do favor, is the idea that choosing to deal with an Evil creature for your own benefit is indicative of an "at any cost" mentality, which is a hallmark of non-Good alignments. There are lines that Good will not cross; Evil has no such restriction. Making a deal with a Cosmically Evil entity is saying "My goal is the most important thing; I will do whatever it takes to succeed, no matter how vile." Which pushes you away from Good.

Second: Okay, but why does it move you towards Law? Well, that's trickier. I wouldn't always say that it should. Unless the compact comes with a compulsion to act in accordance therewith. A willingness to swallow your own desires and instead act in accordance with an external set of rules is more indicative of Law than Chaos. Thus, a pact that forces you to act in accordance therewith is, at least for its own duration, imposing a more Lawful code of conduct upon you.

Third: How would you, Red Fel, implement a Faustian side-plot? Now we're talking my language. Fact is, I've written about this before. Here's one of the old favorites. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16961830&postcount=18) The problem with Faustian plots is that the ones offered in the books are, generally, statted mechanically. And you know the rule: "If it has stats, we can kill it." What you want is a Faustian agreement that has no mechanics. That is, the agreement itself has no mechanics - the benefit may well have mechanics, but the agreement does not. If either party breaks the agreement, the benefits simply disappear - no rolls, no saves. Hence, the only thing keeping the PC stuck in the contract is the PC himself. It's not that he can't break the agreement - he can - but rather that he chooses to remain bound in order to enjoy the benefits.

I explain the idea of being able to withdraw from a pact here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17135950&postcount=66), using the idea of a penalty clause. Because here's the thing - the point of a Faustian side-plot is about how and whether the character gets out of it. Having iron-clad compacts is great, but ultimately limits your storytelling. But having a contract where the idea is, "All you have to do is give up everything you've gained as a result of our deal, and you're out free and clear," means that what the PC is fighting isn't a greedy Devil - it's the PC's own greed.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Third: How would you, Red Fel, implement a Faustian side-plot? Now we're talking my language. Fact is, I've written about this before. Here's one of the old favorites. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16961830&postcount=18) The problem with Faustian plots is that the ones offered in the books are, generally, statted mechanically. And you know the rule: "If it has stats, we can kill it." What you want is a Faustian agreement that has no mechanics. That is, the agreement itself has no mechanics - the benefit may well have mechanics, but the agreement does not. If either party breaks the agreement, the benefits simply disappear - no rolls, no saves. Hence, the only thing keeping the PC stuck in the contract is the PC himself. It's not that he can't break the agreement - he can - but rather that he chooses to remain bound in order to enjoy the benefits.

I explain the idea of being able to withdraw from a pact here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17135950&postcount=66), using the idea of a penalty clause. Because here's the thing - the point of a Faustian side-plot is about how and whether the character gets out of it. Having iron-clad compacts is great, but ultimately limits your storytelling. But having a contract where the idea is, "All you have to do is give up everything you've gained as a result of our deal, and you're out free and clear," means that what the PC is fighting isn't a greedy Devil - it's the PC's own greed.

I'm liking all of this. I wasn't a huge fan of the mechanical implementation of the pacts, though I understand why they did it. That gets me two opt outs that I like - either find some sucker (or a large number of suckers) to take your place, or voluntarily give up the benefits of their pact. I'm cool with the player keeping his unholy abilities after roping in some rube, if only because they are effectively a diabolic subcontractor now, and someone willing to damn other people to save their own hide is probably going to the Nine Hells anyway, especially when the option of just walking away is still on the table. I'm definitely on board with requiring that characters be the kind of people who would make a pact with a devil before making said pact, but I don't think that reveals them to be capital-E evil in some cases so much revealing them to be stupid and shortsighted.

[Red Fel]

I'm liking all of this. I wasn't a huge fan of the mechanical implementation of the pacts, though I understand why they did it. That gets me two opt outs that I like - either find some sucker (or a large number of suckers) to take your place, or voluntarily give up the benefits of their pact. I'm cool with the player keeping his unholy abilities after roping in some rube, if only because they are effectively a diabolic subcontractor now, and someone willing to damn other people to save their own hide is probably going to the Nine Hells anyway, especially when the option of just walking away is still on the table. I'm definitely on board with requiring that characters be the kind of people who would make a pact with a devil before making said pact, but I don't think that reveals them to be capital-E evil in some cases so much revealing them to be stupid and shortsighted.

The fact is that, according to RAW, entering into an agreement with an Evil Outsider is an Evil act. By arbitrary alignment rules. That doesn't mean you're Evil, but it does shift you away from Good.

The thing to remember about Faustian pacts is their origin. Specifically, the origin of the name. Faust, or Faustus, was an old German story, memorialized as a play by Christopher Marlowe. The whole point of the story was that Faustus was tempted, succumbed to temptation, and then was repeatedly enticed to repent. He was visited on multiple occasions by messengers of Good who advised him that he could back out and save his soul. It was only a combination of his own hubris, greed, and stasis that leads him to ignore these warnings and die without salvation.

That's the point. A Faustian pact is an exercise in classic tragedy, and the key to a classic tragedy is that the hero's suffering is of his own design. Oedipus learns only too late what he has wrought; Hamlet becomes too bent on vengeance to realize that he is destroying his father's legacy; and so forth. A Faustian pact works the same way - it's not about the deal itself, but about the character's ignorant refusal to renounce it.

Yes, it's more stupid and shortsighted than Evil, but it's decidedly non-Good - sacrificing your spiritual well-being (and putting yourself in debt to Cosmic Evil) in exchange for short-term gain is one of those lines that Good Must Not Cross. Is it sloppy writing that D&D's arbitrary alignment system says that it shifts you towards Evil? Yeah. But I've never accused D&D of having a well thought out alignment system. Still, it is what it is.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I did mention upstream in the thread that rather than automatic LE alignment, I'd simply have the character in question simply moves one step closer to LE on both the G/E axis and the L/C axis.

I'm definitely liking the classic Faustian plot, especially as the character in question will almost certainly not repent. This is gonna be fun on a bun for me! Not every DM gets to damn a character to eternal torment.