Pathfinder Houserules [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

View Full Version : Pathfinder Houserules

Oroul

2016-03-30, 08:49 PM

Due to suggestion and challenges, April 3rd I have modified this post to reflect the refinement applied to these proposed house rules. As of the last rewritting, we're at post 31.

Due to laziness from my players' part, I may be restricted to DM Pathfinder. Everyone knows the flaws of Pathfinder, so I intend to implement some HouseRules, and some alternate rules proposed by Paizo. I will list the reasons and proposed fixes, please comment on them.

Note that I am autistic as frag. I deal with SHADOWRUN's level of complexity rather easily, and my Players won't have to learn every rule by heart before we begin play.

Vigor Points, Wound Points and Critical Hits
Everyone knows that HP is an abstraction. What's weird with the fact that you avoid a blow with experience, is that you recover HP so slowly. Besides, Cure Light Wound shouldn't apply if your character wasn't really wounded to begin with. What about a dagger to the throat? Even ruling it as a Coup-de-Grace, 2d4 won't slay even a mildly seasoned fighter.

Paizo got rules out in Ultimate Combat that makes use of Wound Points / Vigor Points. In that system, normal blows traded in battle makes for debilitating yet non-lethal damage. Critical Hit, Sneak Attack and Inflict Wound spells do minimal damage to a pool of Wound Points. Besides, random amount of hit points make a very unlucky Fighter more frail than a very lucky wizard.

Characters will have a number of Vigor Points equal to ([Average Hit Die Roll rounded up] x [Level +1] + Other bonuses). Likewise, their Wound Points will equal 4 + Con Mod. + Level + Other bonuses. A character without Vigor Points is helpless (but not unconscious) and has no actions. A character made helpless this way can still take free actions to talk, albeit painfully and with a voice difficult to hear in the heat of battle. A character with 0 Wound Points is dead / destroyed.

Toughness will give (level+1) Vigor Points and 1 Wound Point.

Die Hard and Ferocity cause the character to remain conscious when their Vigor Points reach 0. Any attack that hits a character in such a state inflicts Wound damage as if the attack was a critical hit. Any action that would cause the character to lose 1 hit point in such a state make him lose 1 Wound Point.

Each minute of rest, characters will recover ([Average Hit Die Roll rounded up] + Other Bonuses]) Vigor Points. Each full 6 hours of rest will recover 1 wound point. Resting a full 24 hours recover thus 4.

Non-lethal sneak attacks will work normally, adding a number of d6 of damage to Vigor Points. Sneak attacks with lethal weapons will deal their number of dice as Wound Damage. Critical Hits won't multiply damage, instead, the multiplier will be applied as Wound Damage. Heal/Harm spell will deal/heal Vigor damage normally OR 1 Wound Point per spell level, Caster's choice.

Bad Base Attack & Save Progression
At mid-to-high levels, sadly, things often become Auto-Hit / Auto-Miss save a natural 20 or 1. A bit has to do because, while level 1-3 the difference between Good and Bad saves is 10% of a d20, at level 20 we're speaking 30% in the case of saves, 50% of a d20 for BaB. And only then do stats apply!

Bad saves will be equal (Good Save - 2). For example, a 20th level Fighter will have 12 / 10 / 10 instead of 12 / 6 / 6. A Fighter 2 /Wizard 2 will have 4 / 2 / 4 instead of 3 / 0 / 3. Likewise, an average BaB progression will be (Good BaB - 1) and a bad BaB progression will be (Good BaB -2, minimum 0). This will hurt multiclassed characters far worse than single class characters, as the later will suffer the slower progression once. For example, a level 2 monk / 5 sorcerer will have a BaB of +4, while a level 7 sorcerer will have a BaB of +5.

This will not solve the issue completely, but works toward it.

For a lot of mid-high level encounters, AC is useless.
Even when spending ALL resources toward AC (feats and enough money to make sure he still use a +1 weapon), a Purple Wurm will hit a level 10 fighter around 55% of the time. The poison / swallowing then becomes unavoidable. Armor becomes a liability as it slows one down without any real protection.

Armor will now absorb 10% / 25 % / 50% of each attack directed at the one wearing it in addition to normal effects. If damage prevented > 1, the armor receive one point of damage, no DR. For each full 10 points of damage prevented, the armor receives another point of damage.

Armor will also receive damage normally (E.G. Sunder Maneuver). Enchantments still give 10hp per +1 enhancement value. Adamantine armor ignores the first point of that damage but do not give DR anymore. Damage received that way require 1 hour to repair per full 10 hp lost, minimum 1 hour, and cost nothing to repair. It does appear a bit patched up, however. Damage received this way can still give the "Broken" status. Damage that destroys armor this way simply negate any positive benefit the armor may still confer, while keeping the penalties. At which point I will strongly recommend removing what is left of it and repairing it ASAP.

In addition, every character will add 1/3 (rounded down, minimum 0) his BaB as a Dodge Bonus to AC.

Some classes are strictly better than other because the stats required are also used for saves.
Every character (but one sorcerer) I ever made with a decent charisma score took a dip in Paladin for the Save bonuses.

This is not such a bad thing, but I really like 4th Ed.'s approach, using the better of two stats for defenses. Star Wars Saga allowed something similar, in the latest expansion books, under the form of feats. I will use feats as well.

o : [Will Save] use [Cha. Mod.] instead of [Wis. Mod.].
o [Smart Person] : [Reflex Save] use instead of [Dex. Mod.]
o [Walk it Off] : [Fortitude Save] use [Str. Mod.] instead of [Con. Mod.]

Additionally, the paladin's Divine Grace ability will now allow the character to take the better between his Save's normal Stat and Charisma. More on that in the last part.

Characters can't swing wildly without a feat tax. The tax is also very limiting for some concepts like Vital Strike. At higher levels, they can only get to swing wildlier, unable to affect their own accuracy as they see fit.
[I]I understand how special training can make one more effective at maneuvers like Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim and Power Attack allow. While there's a version of untrained Combat Expertise (Fighting defensively / Total Defense), they are Counter-Intuitive.

I'd look at shortening feat chains and consolidating feats together, at least at the beginning of them. (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/#dw_accordions-3-nav_menu-dw-widget-1) The gist of it:
> Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim, Power Attack and Weapon Finesse are now free.
> All the "improved combat maneuvers" based on Combat Expertise are now a single feat called "Deft Maneuvers".
> All those based on Power attack now called "Powerful Maneuvers".
> Mobility is now part of the Dodge feat.
> The "Weapon Focus" chain now apply on groups of weapon as per the fighter's weapon training.
> Taking Vital Strike grants the effects of Improved Vital Strike and Greater Vital Strike for free as soon as the character reaches the required BaB.
> Improved TWF is merged with TWF. Greater TWF has been modified.
> Point Blank Shot is gone, Precise Shot replaces it as a prerequisite.

In addition to this, the increments for Power Attack / Combat Expertise / Deadly Aim attained at every 4 levels will be optional: For example, if a character wants to take only a -2 penalty at level 20, he'll be free to do so.

Pounce's ruling has been left unclear on purpose by game designer, or so they say
More like "We do not dare close this Pandora Box" imho.

Pounce cannot allow for more than one attack per limb. For this purpose, using a Two-Handed weapon is considered using two of the character's whole arms on this attack (the wording here is in case a character has, and can use more than 2), each whole arm/tentacle is a limb, each whole leg is a limb and the head is a limb. Unless specified otherwise, like with the monk's Improved Unarmed Strike or the alchemist's Tentacle discovery, only hands can be used. Greater Beast Totem is now set to work organically with Lesser Beast Totem instead of RAGELANCEPOUNCE.

The d20 is fickle, and PCs have no resources like Edge / Force Points / Willpower dots...
I like players to have agency in their character's action, and not be completely at the mercy of a die with 20 possible results, all of which have the same chance of happening.

Players will have the choice of rolling 1d20, 2d10, and 3d6+1 on any ACTIVE* roll that would require a d20. The use of the d20 will be considered going recklessly (5% autofail, 5 % auto-success, 30% to score between 15-20), while the 3d6 will be really careful (0.46% auto-fail, 0% auto-success, 16.17% to score between 15-20).

*Saves are always last ditch efforts to avoid, and therefore always reckless & use the d20.

And since players will choose whether or not take risks (to harm a high level Full-Plate-user) or play it safe (Hiting zombies on a Nat 3), I will propose the use of a critical hit / miss chart**. This way, the d20 will be seen as a real risk / greater reward thing while the "5% chance of wounding myself"-meme won't really apply unless you act recklessly. It's 1% or 0.46% of the time otherwise.

**Critical hits chart will contain bonuses like "Make a free [specific combat maneuver] on the target, and if the maneuver fails the target may not try to Y you in return OR Deal X extra wounds" or some minor Called Shot Effects like "Target's move speed is reduced by 10 feet for 1d4 round", "Choose one of the opponent's arm, Attacks using that arm are at a -2 penalty for 1d4 rounds" and "Target is sickened for 1d4 round".

**Critical miss chart will contain penalties like "At the end of your attack action, you drop your weapon at your feet", "Fall Prone", "Your weapon receives 2 points of damage", "Lose [lvl]/2, minimum 1, Vigor Points", "You lose any iterative attack you may have left this round" and "You provoke an attack of opportunity".

Uses/Round per Day [s]encourages meta-gaming provides a hard cap on what heroic deed can be performed in a day without any mean other than feats and stats to extend it.
Another approach, especially since characters will recover Vigor Points naturally, is to make a trade-off.

> Bardic Performance will now cost 3 Vigor Points per round of use. Vigor Points are spent when activated and at the beginning of the Bard's round if he chooses to maintain it. Extra Performance grants 6 free rounds per day.

> Rage will cost 3 Vigor Points per round of use, 5 at Greater Rage and 7 at Mighty Rage. Vigor Points are spent when activated and at the beginning of the Barbarian's round if he chooses to maintain it. It no longer cause fatigue. Extra Rage grants 6 free rounds per day.

> Smite Evil will have to be maintained and will cost 3 Vigor Points per round of use. Vigor Points are spent when activated and at the beginning of the Paladin's round if he chooses to maintain it. Extra Smite Evil now exists and grants 3 free rounds per day.

> Divine Grace will have an active part. For 5 Vigor Points spent before the die roll, the character will be able to use BOTH Cha Mod and the save's normal stat.

> Channel Energy now can't heal the user of this ability and it heals/deals Vigor Points damage. Channel Energy now cost 3 Vigor Points per die of channel energy used and may be used at lower than maximum capacity. Extra Channel Energy grants 2 free uses at maximum dice per day. They cannot be divided.

> Channel Smite works likewise, allowing lesser amounts to be channeled and costing 3 VP per die.

> Channeled Revival now cost (18d6) 54 Vigor Points to use. A character with this feat may reduce this cost by 10 by spending 1 Wound Point. He may spend up to 6 Wound Points this way, bringing the cost to 0 Vigor Points. A character with this feat can always use this ability by sacrificing his own life. Sacrificing one's own life also allows the Breath of Life spell to affect a creature that died within 5 rounds. If the character sacrifices himself, he is himself immune to Breath of Life (but may be brought back to life through other means).

> Activated Domain Powers, Oracle Secrets, Bloodline Powers, Wizard Specialist's Powers, Rage Powers and similar abilities that used to work on a use-per-day-basis will now have a cost in Vigor Points. In the case of powers that can be selected freely (e.g. Oracle secrets), always refer to the lowest level it could have been acquired at. If it was available at level 1, it costs 2 points per use or round of use. If it was available at level 2 to 4, it costs 4 VP. Level 5 to 9, 6 VP. Level 10-15, 8 VP. Level 16+, 10 VP.

Thrown hundreds of feet away, area spells always have perfect accuracy allowing to surgically and perfectly affect enemies while avoiding allies.
This leads to area spells designed like artillery to have perfect accuracy.

Area spells not specifically centered on the caster now require a ranged touch attack against AC [8 + (2 x spell level)]. Concealment and cover / soft cover that the targeted center of the effect "benefits" from apply to the AC of this attack, but range never incurs one. Failure, either due to concealment or to not hitting the target AC requires the caster to roll a scatter dice (1d8 as per splash weapons) and a d3. The result of the d3 is the distance of the scatter. "Spells" is now a valid choice for the Weapon Focus feats chain as well the Fighter's Weapon Training Feature, but the damage bonus does not apply on area spells and/or spells that do ability / level damage.

Ideas, thoughts, suggestion? If you think there'd be ways to make these changes smoother, feel free to suggest them. Keep in mind the reasons WHY I contemplate each house rules though, and that while I am really open to more efficient ways to implement them, I really want to use them.

LTwerewolf

2016-03-30, 09:56 PM

For armor I have been putting together a variation of the unearthed arcana defense bonus, and combine it with the unearthed arcana armor as damage reduction (allowing defense bonus and armor to explicitly stack).

Class Types:

A: Completely unarmored classes such as wizard, sorcerer, psion
B: Light armor only classes such as Rogue, ranger, factotum, bard
C: Hybrid(or non defensive) front line classes such as druid, cleric, barbarian
D: Dedicated (defensive) front line classes such as fighter, paladin, crusader

A starts at 0 (lvl 1) and gains one every 5 levels after (capping at +3).
B uses the same progression as a bad save (caps at +6)
C is the same as 1/2 BaB (caps at +10)
D is the same as 3/4 BaB (caps at +15)

Alternate Armor (also altered from UA):

Armor bonus of each armor is cut in half (round up). The amount decreased becomes damage reduction/-. Enhancement bonus increases AC. A new enchantment can be applied to increase the damage reduciton by 1 (cost +1). Natural Armor is reduced in the same way as standard armor. In addition, double the maximum dexterity bonus of all armor (before materials applied). Armor check penalty only applies to swim, climb, and jump. Shields continue to give AC only, but the amount for each shield (other than buckler) is doubled.

A 20 Fighter with +5full plate, 18 dex, mithral full plate, and a heavy steel shield+5 would have 43 AC. This gives a standard ancient blue dragon (CR21) ~50% chance to hit. This seems acceptable to me and allows those people to focus on other things. I may bump cleric and druid to the B group instead of the C group.

Coidzor

2016-03-30, 09:58 PM

I'd look at shortening feat chains and consolidating feats together, at least at the beginning of them. (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/#dw_accordions-3-nav_menu-dw-widget-1) As well as folding certain feats into base rules, like how Mutants and Masterminds incorporated the basics of Power Attack and Combat Expertise into universal combat options. Certain abilities may also just be better as part of the base skill system than locked behind feat gates.

Oroul

2016-03-30, 11:07 PM

Oroul

2016-03-30, 11:42 PM

Oroul

2016-03-30, 11:46 PM

LTwerewolf

2016-03-30, 11:47 PM

Amulet of natural armor would just add AC, not DR, similar to enhancement bonus on the armor. His DR would be 4/- unless he had another source of DR.

Oroul

2016-04-01, 06:43 AM

Amulet of natural armor would just add AC, not DR, similar to enhancement bonus on the armor. His DR would be 4/- unless he had another source of DR.

A 20 Fighter with +5full plate, 18 dex, mithral full plate, and a heavy steel shield+5 would have 43 AC. This gives a standard ancient blue dragon (CR21) ~50% chance to hit.

This means that, following your example, by using Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Dodge, an amulet of Natural Armor +5 and a deflection bonus to AC of +5 (Ring of protection / Shield of faith)cranks his AC to 56. Which means that even the Tarrasque hits only on a 18. Even without the use of Combat expertise, the Tarrasque could easily miss on a 19.

Meanwhile, with my solution, a fighter with 18 Dex (due to belt) gets 10 (Base) + 6 (BaB/3, rounded down) + 4 (Dex) + 14 (Full Plate +5) + 7 (Heavy Shield +5) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5 (Amulet of Natural Armor) + 3 (feats) get an AC of 54.

Which is about the same. Huh. I am more comfortable with two AC points lower, however, and BaB / 3 means every character will get a similar bonus, just with a delay of one or two levels, or more if multiclassed. It's also simpler to follow since I reworked the Bad Save Progression too.

Brb in a day or two, gotta maths.

Necromancy

2016-04-01, 08:06 AM

I've actually played wounds/vigor and it stinks. If you opt to restat monsters with it then they have more hp and technically it should change the CR

The real problem though, is the side effect of crits on players = terrible
crits on monsters = unnoticeable

If you want to add some hardmode realism try this- healing spells max heal = current hp+con mod.

As for vital strike, allow access to mythic vital strike feat instead.

Tohsaka Rin

2016-04-01, 08:21 AM

Just to chime in, and agree with Necromancy wounds/vitality is terrible. Star Wars d20 Revised used it. The next update of the game went to HP instead.

Why? Because a single lucky crit can end a character. Each player (normally) has only one character, but odds are, they're gonna fight dozens of monsters. Only one or two of them need to get lucky, to chop the party down by one.

The math just isn't in the players' favor, and at the end of the day (or game night), the NPCs won't be the ones you have to answer to across the table.

Krazzman

2016-04-01, 09:19 AM

Wounds and Vigor as well as the Uses/Round by Day Houserules are (said as both a DM and Player) "Meh."

Wounds and Vigor are "ok, i guess" but the other part? Nope. I don't like it. Mainly because I don't see how Bardic Music, Rage or Smite and so on instigate metagaming, since for example my paladin knows while he can tell x billion people they will be smitten (smited?) by him, he can only call the Real Deal(tm) on about 4 People each day. The Barbarian knows that he can only Rage for about 2 minutes each day especially because it is tiring but can be angry for like... all the other minutes of the day and night.

Additionally the way you wrote it... it feels like it punishes the people in melee far more than the ones out of reach and the picture of everyone being a masochist comes in my mind. Because suddenly my Barbarian "takes damage" because he is Rageing or my Paladin getting non-lethal damage because he wants to smite the wicked.

Despite my aversion to the above mentioned two rules:
Yes, for the love of Desna consolidate feats.
My biggest offenders: Two Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike and Style Feats...
Two Weapon Fighting at my table is ruled similar to Flurry of Blows. As in it gives you an attack with your "off-hand" every time you attack with your main hand. With a follow up feat (Two Weapon Accuracy) that gives a bonus to-hit when wielding 2 weapons or a double weapon and some other benefits.
Vital Strike is basically only one Feat called Heavy Blow and basically grants you your weapon damage for each attack that you could strike with. (6th Level fighter would have 4d6 with his greatsword, if hastened he would have 6d6 with it.)
Have yet to decide if I want to think about style feats...

Good luck

LTwerewolf

2016-04-01, 10:04 AM

This means that, following your example, by using Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Dodge, an amulet of Natural Armor +5 and a deflection bonus to AC of +5 (Ring of protection / Shield of faith)cranks his AC to 56. Which means that even the Tarrasque hits only on a 18. Even without the use of Combat expertise, the Tarrasque could easily miss on a 19.

Meanwhile, with my solution, a fighter with 18 Dex (due to belt) gets 10 (Base) + 6 (BaB/3, rounded down) + 4 (Dex) + 14 (Full Plate +5) + 7 (Heavy Shield +5) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5 (Amulet of Natural Armor) + 3 (feats) get an AC of 54.

Which is about the same. Huh. I am more comfortable with two AC points lower, however, and BaB / 3 means every character will get a similar bonus, just with a delay of one or two levels, or more if multiclassed. It's also simpler to follow since I reworked the Bad Save Progression too.

Brb in a day or two, gotta maths.

The problem with yours I see is it doesn't differentiate beyond BaB. It's very easy to get a wizard or cleric to ultimately have pretty high BaB. It's why I went with a non-BAB related system. Casters don't need more help. For multiclassed characters, I base it on where their build is at at the time. If you start off at fighter and then move to mostly wizard, it's very possible your defense bonus can go down because the character's focus has changed from one of combat defense to one of spells.

Psyren

2016-04-01, 10:12 AM

@OP: Remember that unarmed strike is not a natural attack in PF, so make sure Pounce still works with it or you're hosing monks/brawlers for no reason. Personally though I have no problems letting pounce work with anything, you still need to expend resources to get it. (Tikbalang comes to mind.)

I'd look at shortening feat chains and consolidating feats together, at least at the beginning of them. (http://theworldissquare.com/feat-taxes-in-pathfinder/#dw_accordions-3-nav_menu-dw-widget-1) As well as folding certain feats into base rules, like how Mutants and Masterminds incorporated the basics of Power Attack and Combat Expertise into universal combat options. Certain abilities may also just be better as part of the base skill system than locked behind feat gates.

And sigged. We've been doing some of these for awhile now but it's good to have one big source to point to.

Coidzor

2016-04-01, 01:48 PM

And sigged. We've been doing some of these for awhile now but it's good to have one big source to point to.

Always happy to spread nifty things around. :smallsmile:

I must admit, that while I'd been in favor of things like rolling the TWFing feat line into an automatically scaling affair, the idea of making the basic version of combat maneuver feats all one feat hadn't quite sunk in as much/occurred to me before. Was like a lightbulb exploding in my head when I saw those.

Granted, it probably helped that PF expanded the number of combat maneuvers, allowing for that connection to have been made a bit more readily. I think. :smallconfused:

Tuvarkz

2016-04-01, 02:29 PM

Oroul

2016-04-01, 03:58 PM

First of all, thanks everyone for challenging me. You swayed me, if only in little ways, and my houserules only benefit from it. Still I reply challenges with challenges. I hope you'll answer to mine as only greater truths could come out.

I've actually played wounds/vigor and it stinks. If you opt to restat monsters with it then they have more hp and technically it should change the CR

The real problem though, is the side effect of crits on players = terrible
crits on monsters = unnoticeable

If you want to add some hardmode realism try this- healing spells max heal = current hp+con mod.

As for vital strike, allow access to mythic vital strike feat instead.

First of all, Wounds/Vigor points as suggested by Paizo is thrash. I agree. Note that, with my version, 98% of the time, when PCs are critted, they will receive 2 Wound Points on the barest minimum of [4 (base) - 2 (Con) + 1 (level). And they Min-Maxed, putting their min there. Still, maybe, I'll leave a 6-rounds grace period in which a character is in shock but not dead and during which magical healing stabilizes him.

Considering a rogue's Sneak attack deals 6 Wound Points worth of damage by level 11, and has at least 2 attacks per round from BaB alone, the mighty Purple Worm (4 + 16 hit dice +7 Con modifier) would last 5 attacks. Agreed, foes will be disposed off more often than not through Coups-de-Grâce, but I do not see a problem with this.

Finally, I plan on the game going mythic. If they want Mythic Vital Strike, it'll be available then. Besides, what's the point to using iterative attacks when you suffer 0 loss of damage from 1 attack at maximum attack bonus as a standard action that allows you to move your full speed normally?

Still, I hear you. I'll look into it. Thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated.

Just to chime in, and agree with Necromancy wounds/vitality is terrible. Star Wars d20 Revised used it. The next update of the game went to HP instead.

Why? Because a single lucky crit can end a character. Each player (normally) has only one character, but odds are, they're gonna fight dozens of monsters. Only one or two of them need to get lucky, to chop the party down by one.

The math just isn't in the players' favor, and at the end of the day (or game night), the NPCs won't be the ones you have to answer to across the table.

I don't see how the crit-killing-PCs-because-it-favors-large-number-of-characters is a problem with wound points any more than it is for the regular HP use. level 2 party of 4 faces 8 orcs with goddamn falchions, Fighter can't hold them ALL off, Wizard get charged by two of them.

Being falchions attacking at +7 (charge bonus) and an unbuffed wizard's AC, they score two crits. The wizard's got 13 hp (first hit die maxed out, second got a 5, +1 Con Mod), the first crit deals 4d4+8 (12) points of damage, the second deals the same, the wizard is dead.

And you rolled eight 1's in a row.

With my system, wizard got 12 VP + 7 WP. The first crit does 2d4+4 (6 points of damage) and 2 WP. The second deals the same, and now the Wizard is at 0 VP / 3 WP. Sure, he's made helpless, but he is still very much alive.

Heck, if both attacks were one single point under the maximum (2x 11 VP worth of damage + 2 Wound Points), results are EXACTLY THE SAME: Wizard's at 0 VP / 3 WP. Note that I avoid the pure maximum only because the wizard would fall from the first hit, making the second a very bad move from the orcs. Even they know to prioritize targets fighting back. But mathematically, the result is the same.

So please, go into details, because I literally can't see the problem you attempt to point out!

And as for the "PCs are the one I have to answer to" part, ain't that a bit too emotional? I, as the one who sends them challenges, have to carefully gauge my encounters, and I have the control on the story narrative. I mentor the players so that every character has a meaningful role to play. Mechanics have so little to do with it.

Wounds and Vigor as well as the Uses/Round by Day Houserules are (said as both a DM and Player) "Meh."

Wounds and Vigor are "ok, i guess" but the other part? Nope. I don't like it. Mainly because I don't see how Bardic Music, Rage or Smite and so on instigate metagaming, since for example my paladin knows while he can tell x billion people they will be smitten (smited?) by him, he can only call the Real Deal(tm) on about 4 People each day. The Barbarian knows that he can only Rage for about 2 minutes each day especially because it is tiring but can be angry for like... all the other minutes of the day and night.

Additionally the way you wrote it... it feels like it punishes the people in melee far more than the ones out of reach and the picture of everyone being a masochist comes in my mind. Because suddenly my Barbarian "takes damage" because he is Rageing or my Paladin getting non-lethal damage because he wants to smite the wicked.

Despite my aversion to the above mentioned two rules:
Yes, for the love of Desna consolidate feats.
My biggest offenders: Two Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike and Style Feats...
Two Weapon Fighting at my table is ruled similar to Flurry of Blows. As in it gives you an attack with your "off-hand" every time you attack with your main hand. With a follow up feat (Two Weapon Accuracy) that gives a bonus to-hit when wielding 2 weapons or a double weapon and some other benefits.
Vital Strike is basically only one Feat called Heavy Blow and basically grants you your weapon damage for each attack that you could strike with. (6th Level fighter would have 4d6 with his greatsword, if hastened he would have 6d6 with it.)
Have yet to decide if I want to think about style feats...

Good luck

First, thanks for the feedback!

These abilities instigates metagaming because I see no reason why the bard suddenly becomes less inspiring after 1 minute or less of performance. He then stops signing for no apparent reason. If the performance is such that it causes quantifiable amount of stress (VP damage), then he has a very understandable reason to pace his performance to the flow and need of battle.

Likewise, a barbarian can still be angry without raging. And I fully understand the concept of (number of rounds until exhausted). But once the barbarian is no longer tired of his previous rage, heck, even hours after it, why can't he build up his destructive emotions again?

Managing one's stamina makes for a much more fluid experience than managing rounds of anger per day. If only because the sentence "We need make camp so Thog can be angry again tommorow" makes to sense whatsoever. Meanwhile "Thog need to catch breath, give Thog few moments", even if only to recuperate spent Vigor Points does.

Finally, Vigor Points are not "real damage". Nobody is cutting his own wrist to get angrier / more passionate singing. It's a picture of how much energy he can spend / concussion he can endure before passing out. And the "way I wrote it", without supporting it with a quote, is meaningless. I literally wrote "cost" and "spending", as in a financial transaction.. So unless trading / spending money is literally (not figuratively) pain for you, which you need to explain how it works, I suggest you stop with the emotional manipulation.

I do, however, agree with most of what you said about feats. At the very least, Two-Weapon rend (allows 1/2 STR bonus on off-hand weapon) will be integrated in the basic TWF feat.

The problem with yours I see is it doesn't differentiate beyond BaB. It's very easy to get a wizard or cleric to ultimately have pretty high BaB. It's why I went with a non-BAB related system. Casters don't need more help. For multiclassed characters, I base it on where their build is at at the time. If you start off at fighter and then move to mostly wizard, it's very possible your defense bonus can go down because the character's focus has changed from one of combat defense to one of spells.

I am sorry, how is that a problem? I mean: the Wizard already hits whatever he really needs to hit on a Nat 2, Touch AC being what it is. And clerics that do go in melee have ways to catch up to the fighter. All I have to do is nerf a bit Divine Favor / Power so that their buff + their base BaB never exceed a full BaB. Might state the limit that way too. "Max Bonus = Level - BaB". Heck, why not make it so that the bonus to hit is always "Level - BaB". Sure, it's a bit more of a perk to the Cleric 3 / Sorcerer 3 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Monk 2 (whose BaB is 6 below a Fighter's or so), than the Cleric 10 character, but I am more than comfortable with that.

Besides, let's give a common level 12 wizard the suggested 108 000 gp and 14 Dex.

His AC is 15 [10 (base) + 2 (dex) + 3 (BaB 10/3, rounded down)]. He finds the Mage Armor spell a bit on the weak side, and spends 36 000 gp on Bracers of Armor +6. That's 21. He then proceed to buy the best Ring of Protection (+3 / 32 000 gp) and Amulet of Natural armor (+5 / 25 000 gp) he can. That's 29 for 86% of his budget on his AC alone.

Purple worm (CR 12) still hits on a 4. Chromatic Green Dragon, Adult (CR 12) still hits on a 8. The Dread Wraith (CR 13, +20 to hit, ignores armor and natural armor bonuses) hits on a 2. The Ice Devil still hits on a 8 / 13 / 18. The Fire Giant (CR 10) also hits on a 8 / 13 / 18. Only the Cryohydra (CR 10) seems to struggle a bit, it's 9 attacks on a pounce only hitting on a 15. And a mage level 12 spent 86% of his budget on AC.

So yeah, I am 100% comfortable with "buffing the wizard" this way.

@OP: Remember that unarmed strike is not a natural attack in PF, so make sure Pounce still works with it or you're hosing monks/brawlers for no reason. Personally though I have no problems letting pounce work with anything, you still need to expend resources to get it. (Tikbalang comes to mind.)

And sigged. We've been doing some of these for awhile now but it's good to have one big source to point to.

Thanks for pointing it out: Heck, I'll re-word it as "no appendage can be used for more than 1 attack, two-handed weapon use both hands for this purpose", allowing monks who somehow gets pounce to go HAM with head, fists and feet for up to 5 attacks on a Pounce.

And if I get a Barbarian X / Alchemist 4 with extra arms to use two two-handed weapons, that's one hell of a trade-off to do two greatsword attacks on a charge, plus makes for an interesting character who can't loot magic armors easily. I'll allow it.

LTwerewolf

2016-04-01, 04:21 PM

The wizard could spend far less money by using displacement, blink, or any other number of spells and get a similar result. That should be the basis of their defense should they want to go that route. Why is it so important for wizards to match fighters in the exact same way?

Necromancy

2016-04-01, 04:22 PM

Let me reiterate my wounds and vigor issue.

It's not about the effect on players, it's about making player crits on monsters have less effect than normal hits to the point that you're completely nerfing rogues and crit builds/feats

Krazzman

2016-04-01, 05:31 PM

First of all, thanks everyone for challenging me. You swayed me, if only in little ways, and my houserules only benefit from it. Still I reply challenges with challenges. I hope you'll answer to mine as only greater truths could come out.

First, thanks for the feedback!

That's the reason for the thread isn't it? :D

These abilities instigates metagaming because I see no reason why the bard suddenly becomes less inspiring after 1 minute or less of performance. He then stops signing for no apparent reason. If the performance is such that it causes quantifiable amount of stress (VP damage), then he has a very understandable reason to pace his performance to the flow and need of battle.

Likewise, a barbarian can still be angry without raging. And I fully understand the concept of (number of rounds until exhausted). But once the barbarian is no longer tired of his previous rage, heck, even hours after it, why can't he build up his destructive emotions again?

One way would be 3.5's version being ported back in. Without rest they can only do X a few times per day. As this is exactly like spells. Paladin has 4 Smiteslots, Thog has 4 Rageslots, Marduk has 4 1st Level Spellslots.
I get what you are trying to do (as in extending the versimilitude to better cover the oddness of being suddenly not Rage(tm) angry or not being as inspiring anymore).

Managing one's stamina makes for a much more fluid experience than managing rounds of anger per day. If only because the sentence "We need make camp so Thog can be angry again tommorow" makes to sense whatsoever. Meanwhile "Thog need to catch breath, give Thog few moments", even if only to recuperate spent Vigor Points does.

Stamina management, yes. But the management of external resources (i.e. uses per day of Smite, rounds of rage/day and so on) is also a way to say these things. And I have never heard of a party resting because the Barbarian could not rage anymore. The Wizard or Cleric not having anymore spells would be a more common reason for that. Since at least the Wizard is in the worst case just a high level commoner without his spells. And I thought the "Thog need to catch breath" was pictured (at least until Tireless rage) in form of fatigue/exhaustion from raging.

Finally, Vigor Points are not "real damage". Nobody is cutting his own wrist to get angrier / more passionate singing. It's a picture of how much energy he can spend / concussion he can endure before passing out. And the "way I wrote it", without supporting it with a quote, is meaningless. I literally wrote "cost" and "spending", as in a financial transaction.. So unless trading / spending money is literally (not figuratively) pain for you, which you need to explain how it works, I suggest you stop with the emotional manipulation.

Vigor points as I interpreted them are overextertions, stamina, small cuts and bruises. Despite no manipulation intended by me, I interpreted the whole block about metagaming as "target"(lack of better term) and intended that my answer would be about what I feel about it (that I don't like it). Mostly because IF I were to use it, I would be opening at least with Bard and Barbarian two pretty exploitable systems. (Thog spends 3 vigor points each round to rage again and then use a Rage-ending power... ragecycling from level 1. Or what about damage reduction, fast healing? etc.)
Another thing I don't like is that for some classes, their sole big class feature (Rage, Smite and LoH) is changed, while other's have a tweak to none or marginally small(Fighter, or Domain Powers) change without affecting their big class feature (casting).
(Sidenote: currently spending the money I earn is probably = "damage" to myself, since my income is from donating Bloodplasma atm. But with "the way you wrote it" I meant just that my interpretation of what you wrote in the concerning paragraph is, at least for me, similar to light masochism. As in that was the first thing that I thought while reading this.)

My words weren't meant as a challenge... I should probably have said that you should talk about this exact thing with your friends. Because changing the current system of "I can smite 3 wicked people today/I can rage for 2 minutes" to (again, at least in my eyes) your approach. I would not like that. But if your group runs well with it, then by all means do it.(Not like I could stop you if I wanted :D)

I am sorry if this is, again, a more emotional answer

Tuvarkz

2016-04-01, 05:32 PM

Besides, let's give a common level 12 wizard the suggested 108 000 gp and 14 Dex.

His AC is 15 [10 (base) + 2 (dex) + 3 (BaB 10/3, rounded down)]. He finds the Mage Armor spell a bit on the weak side, and spends 36 000 gp on Bracers of Armor +6. That's 21. He then proceed to buy the best Ring of Protection (+3 / 32 000 gp) and Amulet of Natural armor (+5 / 25 000 gp) he can. That's 29 for 86% of his budget on his AC alone.

Purple worm (CR 12) still hits on a 4. Chromatic Green Dragon, Adult (CR 12) still hits on a 8. The Dread Wraith (CR 13, +20 to hit, ignores armor and natural armor bonuses) hits on a 2. The Ice Devil still hits on a 8 / 13 / 18. The Fire Giant (CR 10) also hits on a 8 / 13 / 18. Only the Cryohydra (CR 10) seems to struggle a bit, it's 9 attacks on a pounce only hitting on a 15. And a mage level 12 spent 86% of his budget on AC.

So yeah, I am 100% comfortable with "buffing the wizard" this way.

We're talking a level 12 wizard. This means that outside of a Thassilonian Magic specialist of Lust or Pride, the wizard has access to Overland flight. Of those, half the enemies suddenly lose any reasonable way of targetting mister wizard and his 12 hours of bye bye walking on ground, at the cost of 1 or 2 level 5 slots.
Secondly, your math is off. Ring of Protection +3 is worth 18k, not 32k (which is the cost of +4), and if you're taking 25k for the Amulet of Natural Armor, you are clearly using Craft Wondrous Item (Which means you're crafting the Bracers of Armor +6 for 18k gold)
Instead, for a similar price you can instead go for a +5 Mithral Lamellar Cuirass (Mithral makes ACP and spell failure chance both 0, which means no penalty for not being proficient) for a +7 bonus to AC at a cheap 26060 gp, plus a Ring of Protection +4 for 32k and a Amulet of Natural Armor +4 for 16k (crafted) as well. It's the same AC bonus and you're saving 19k (Or saving 1k in case you took crafting into account for your bracers of armor) gold in comparison.
Yet again, because this is Overland Flight we are talking about, half the enemies are pretty much not a threat to the wizard anymore, so spending all this gold is somewhat pointless.

Oroul

2016-04-01, 05:38 PM

Not a huge fan of Wounds/Vigor myself either, to be honest.
Regarding BAB (Saves progression depends on the class tbh), it's an ohgodswhy. Half BAB is one of the few things making touch-attack focused fullcasters required to use some dexterity at all, considering how poorly Touch AC will scale with enemy level in 90%+ of the encounters. Giving them an effective +8 to their rolls only makes them stronger!

Hitting on a 2 or hitting on a -6 is essentially the same thing. My alternative die rolls, which reduce the chances of an auto-miss to 0.46% of the time instead of 5% has a much greater influence on this.

And for 6/9 casters and some martials at 3/4 BAB, they are performing fine (Or at least outside of chained Monk/Rogue, but they got Unchained versions and working archetypes to make them catch up.)
About AC, that 45% miss chance is enough, when you consider that the main thing AC is there to stop at higher levels if the melee from eating a full attack completely, not dodge every single attack.
A whole lot of monsters have all their attacks withing 2 or 3 points of their best attack bonus. Hydras, dragons, golems, the Tarrasque, Griffins, Gargoyles, Manticores, Elementals, Trolls, Animals... If a character gets hit 70% of the time, he's going to get mauled.

Better have mobility than avoid iterative attacks of the rare few monsters that do use them. So no thanks.

Making it take damage naturally only adds to the amount of gold the frontliners will need to spend repairing it. (Unless the wizard or other spellcaster keeps a slot for make whole and similar spells).
Allow me to point out the bit you apparently skimmed over: "Damage received that way require 1 hour to repair per full 10 hp lost, minimum 1 hour, and cost nothing to repair." This is why I always quote.

Giving each save a second stat alternative is a good idea, but the Paladin is far from needing the nerf. The fact that it's the strongest martial doesn't mean it should get nerfed by any means, martials are still behind on the power game. And outside of fellow martials, I don't think any spellcaster would actually bother taking the 3 caster level offset for the save bonus (Consider that it's one level of spells for 6/9s and one and a half for fullcasters in delayed spell access).
That's strange, people everywhere tell me the Barbarian is the most OP martial class. But then again, ONLY if you take Greater Beast Totem, Supertitious, are at least partly human, and you spend your favored class options on bolstering your Supertitious power.

So I agree with you. Paladin is now the strongest martial.

What I disagree on is that it's a nerf. Now the paladin has a real incentive to dump his Dex. Still affects his AC and Initiative, but at least he gets to replace his dex penalty for a charisma bonus in Reflex.

Furthermore, with one feat (and he has a bit more of those if feats are consolidated) and a few vigor points, he gets Charisma TWICE on will saves.

But it's definitely not a buff either. It's a trade-off.

While trying to stabilize RNG, it's a part of the d20 system overall and I'd rather keep it. Also, I still heavily dislike using critical hit/miss charts (And then, this only harms critical builds, every other character will prefer to take the 3d6+1 as generally a 8+ roll will be enough for them to pass for attack rolls and their strong saves, and with weak saves as you've left them, those too as well)
The twenty-sided dice is a big part of d20. You know, I get it. Critical miss / hit charts are only there to reinforce the reckless gambit of using a d20. Worst results will be: Disarmed, Weapon takes damage and Lose iterative attacks.

But you do raise a point: When using iterative attacks, characters will need to stick to one type of die roll for the whole set of attacks. For example, only the d20, or only the 3d6.

I do agree it's a problem on saves. Especially since you can't be "careful" when making a save. The dice choice will be limited to active rolls. Thanks for pointing it out.

Vital Strike is still generally bad(Outside of a couple specialist builds), and even that feat chain fix won't do much to make it better.
I beg to differ. While I agree the difference between Accuracy / Damage is really bad, this is before the fix to AC that you also dislike. Second, it still allows for a move action. So walk into melee w/ 1 attack as a standard action, why not make that attack x2 or x3 the base damage die? That said, any player that feels like you do is 100% free of not taking it. Some NPCs will take it, however, especially if PCs choose not to. Probably a smart, large character:

* Vital Strike for 3 dice of damage.
* Move away, receive AoO for 1 die of damage
* PC moves in, gets an AoO for 1 die of damage
* PC can only make 1 attack for one die of damage
* Rince
* Repeat
* Get 2 free die of damage in the trade

Uses/Day encourage meta-gaming? You know about every single class has daily use limit things, right? Spending your resources wisely is something any adventurer is likely to be aware of, the same way a wizard knows he has a limit in spells he can cast each day. And again, poor mister paladin doesn't deserve the smite evil heavy nerf you're giving him (Yes, not even lawful stupid or stupid good guy deserves that).
Wizards, Sorcerers, Monks, Paladins, Barbarians, Bards, Monks, Alchemists, Cavaliers, Samurais, Ninjas, Rogues, Oracles, Witches and Ranger will all see their use-per-day / round-per-day abilities costing Vigor Points instead. Only exception will be those whose only purpose is to give back their users' own Vigor Points.

Only the Gunslinger / Magus and Fighter, and to a lesser extent Monks/Ninjas who either lack such an ability, or use a pool of resources like Ki will be left (partially) untouched. So I hardly see this as unfair to anyone.

Besides, now the paladin can literally smite every battle.

Now, for my own houserules:
Paragon Surge is banned(...)
You're aware enhancement bonuses don't stack? This is basically trading 1 spell for the use of one feat, and it doesn't stack with itself. It's also a pretty weak headband / belt ability. It's good, but hardly game-breaking.

and the Psionic Reformation power may not be augmented.
All “Knuckles” boosts and “Flurry” strikes from Broken Blade damage bonuses are reduced by 1d6

A quick and easy fix for some stuff that is broken.
I simply don't allow 3rd party material. You should begin with "We allow Path of War and Psionic Unleashed material" as a house rule.

The Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, Improved Unarmed Strike feats are freely available to any character that meets prerequisites. Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot are now a single feat. Dodge has been removed as requirement for any feat. Any character that would've gotten any of the first three feats from class levels instead gains a free Weapon Focus feat, locked into, respectively: Two Handed Weapon(choose one), Light or Finesseable Weapon, Unarmed Strike. Similarly, any class or archetype that grants simultaneously both Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot gives a free Weapon Focus with a ranged weapon of choice.
Feat prerequisite removal, mostly.

Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Feint, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip have all been merged into the Improved Weapon Maneuvers feat, which gives all their bonuses in one. Their Greater versions have been similarly merged
Improved Bull Rush, Improved Drag, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Grapple, Improved Overrun, Improved Reposition, Improved Steal have been similarly merged into the Improved Combat Maneuvers feat. The same applies to their Greater versions.
The Two-Weapon Fighting feat line is now a single feat.
Similarly, the Whip Mastery feat line is now a single feat, granting each benefit upon reaching the necessary BAB.
Helping with feat chains and combining stuff.
This is mostly Coidzor's link.

All characters gain the Skill Unlock for a single skill at level 5, a second at 10, and a third at 15.
Skill Unlocks are cool things, particularly for noncasters, so I like giving them out.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Got a link?

Crafting: The amount of progress made towards crafting an item, be it via the crafting skill or magical item creation is now equal to 50 times your crafting check, in gold, each day. Non magical crafting now follows the gold requirements of magical crafting. In addition, mundane crafters no longer require the Master Craftsman feat, although they must still follow their rules and have a minimum amount of ranks in said skill to start crafting. Classes that grant Craft () as a class skill now only do so for a maximum of two crafts. Further crafts may be gained as class skills via traits or multiclassing. Mundane crafters may attempt a Spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level) to replicate a spell for crafting purposes, although their amount of ranks in the Craft skill must match the minimum caster level to cast said spell.

Craft is no longer a background skill.

In addition, Grandmaster crafting tools (That grant a +5 competence bonus for Lesser, +10 for Minor, and +15 for Major) may be bought/crafted. Their market value is 2500 gp, 10000 gp, and 22500 gp, respectively, and require a minimum of 5, 10, or 15 ranks in their respective craft to be created. This prerequisite may not be bypassed.
This is to make noncasting crafters be up to par with their casting brethren.
"Making Craft Work.pdf myself"

Unchained Monk now works with Monk archetypes.
Prestige classes that grant no Spellcasting/Manifesting may be given PrC maneuver progression on request, up to DM’s discretion.
Permission stuff for players to play concepts that would otherwise be a heavy mechanical downgrade for them.

The human racial alternate Comprehensive Education is banned
Or it is so until it gets an FAQ that doesn't RAW make wizards and psychics even more horridly broken, and bard/occultist/mystic don't need the power boost either

Psionic/Magic Transparency: Wondrous Items/Universal items may be crafted by either side and such, Spellcraft works for both sides. K: Arcana works for all K:Psionics things, including prerequisites.
Simplifying stuff when magic and psionics mesh together.

Movement while flying is handled in the same way as movement while on land. No need for Fly checks.
The Fly skill sucks, enough said.
None of that applies. But thnx for sharing.

All base classes that aren't int-based casters or manifesters and gain 2+Int skill ranks per level gain 4+Int instead.
Again, giving a mechanical boost with skills so that they don't need to go too thin on them.
I agree 100% with this.

Tuvarkz

2016-04-01, 06:28 PM

Hitting on a 2 or hitting on a -6 is essentially the same thing. My alternative die rolls, which reduce the chances of an auto-miss to 0.46% of the time instead of 5% has a much greater influence on this.

A whole lot of monsters have all their attacks withing 2 or 3 points of their best attack bonus. Hydras, dragons, golems, the Tarrasque, Griffins, Gargoyles, Manticores, Elementals, Trolls, Animals... If a character gets hit 70% of the time, he's going to get mauled.

Better have mobility than avoid iterative attacks of the rare few monsters that do use them. So no thanks.

For some simple math, 70% hitrate:
2 attacks: He's getting hit twice only 49% of the time, hit once the other 52% of the time, all miss 9% of the time.
(This amounts to an effective 25% damage reduction if both attacks would always be hitting on average)
3 attacks: All three attacks hit only 34.3% of the time, he gets hit twice 51.1% of the time, hit once 21.9% of the time, and all miss 2.7% of the time (This time a 24.3% damage reduction)
And so forth. Of course, if we talk the 50% hitrate we were discussing earlier, it goes:
2 attacks: He's getting hit twice only 25% of the time, hit once 50%, and all miss 25% of the time
(50% damage reduction on average)
3 attacks: He's getting hit thrice only 12.5% of the time, hit twice 37.5% of the time, hit once 37.5% of the time, and all attacks miss on 12.5% of the time (50% damage reduction on average as well)
Again, so forth.

Allow me to point out the bit you apparently skimmed over: "Damage received that way require 1 hour to repair per full 10 hp lost, minimum 1 hour, and cost nothing to repair." This is why I always quote.

Missed this one, my bad.

That's strange, people everywhere tell me the Barbarian is the most OP martial class. But then again, ONLY if you take Greater Beast Totem, Supertitious, are at least partly human, and you spend your favored class options on bolstering your Supertitious power.

So I agree with you. Paladin is now the strongest martial.

What I disagree on is that it's a nerf. Now the paladin has a real incentive to dump his Dex. Still affects his AC and Initiative, but at least he gets to replace his dex penalty for a charisma bonus in Reflex.

Furthermore, with one feat (and he has a bit more of those if feats are consolidated) and a few vigor points, he gets Charisma TWICE on will saves.

But it's definitely not a buff either. It's a trade-off.

This better be an April's Fools joke. No martial class is overpowered-Being great at doing damage doesn't make you overpowered, particularly when a variety of encounter designs can make your build entirely useless. Heck, you need at least 9/9 fullcasting (and Prepared in most cases) to reach Tier 1, and Tier 2 is mostly fullcasters and a few 6/9 archetypes. Paizo martials at most will reach the "Competent and well rounded" level of power at best.
Being the "Strongest Martial" is basically saying "You are still a step below the Magus"

I beg to differ. While I agree the difference between Accuracy / Damage is really bad, this is before the fix to AC that you also dislike. Second, it still allows for a move action. So walk into melee w/ 1 attack as a standard action, why not make that attack x2 or x3 the base damage die? That said, any player that feels like you do is 100% free of not taking it. Some NPCs will take it, however, especially if PCs choose not to. Probably a smart, large character:

* Vital Strike for 3 dice of damage.
* Move away, receive AoO for 1 die of damage
* PC moves in, gets an AoO for 1 die of damage
* PC can only make 1 attack for one die of damage
* Rince
* Repeat
* Get 2 free die of damage in the trade

You are definitively missing something in here, being that damage dice aren't everything. Outside of size-stacking builds, damage mostly comes from fixed bonuses via class features/ability score/power attack, and the Quick Runner's Shirt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/shirt-quick-runners) only costs 1000 gp which means the martial can keep multiple spares and move as a swift action so he can full attack.

Wizards, Sorcerers, Monks, Paladins, Barbarians, Bards, Monks, Alchemists, Cavaliers, Samurais, Ninjas, Rogues, Oracles, Witches and Ranger will all see their use-per-day / round-per-day abilities costing Vigor Points instead. Only exception will be those whose only purpose is to give back their users' own Vigor Points.

Only the Gunslinger / Magus and Fighter, and to a lesser extent Monks/Ninjas who either lack such an ability, or use a pool of resources like Ki will be left (partially) untouched. So I hardly see this as unfair to anyone.

Besides, now the paladin can literally smite every battle.

Hm, I guess this one can be a situational advantage for some martials at early levels, but in comparison to mid-to-late game, it ends up as a disadvantage, considering how lategame Barbarian can basically rage for all his daily encounters no problem and the Paladin similarly gets enough smites for the strongest enemy in each encounter every day.

You're aware enhancement bonuses don't stack? This is basically trading 1 spell for the use of one feat, and it doesn't stack with itself. It's also a pretty weak headband / belt ability. It's good, but hardly game-breaking.

You know how Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) used to be one of the archetypes that bumped Fighter to Tier 4 before WMH was released? Feat versatility is pretty darn strong, particularly for spontaneous casters that can always get the exact metamagic feat they need for a situation (Or other feat) by burning a single level 2 spell(EDIT: level 3 spell), of which they have enough to spare. For more details here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ox7t?The-Mini-Guide-to-Paragon-Surge)

I simply don't allow 3rd party material. You should begin with "We allow Path of War and Psionic Unleashed material" as a house rule.

I like my martials being competent, so Path of War being allowed is a given. And whether certain material being allowed or not counts as a houserule (Which is generally interpreted as some RAW or RAI being overruled by the DM, rather than what materials are allowed)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Got a link?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained#TOC-Rogue-s-Edge-Ex-

Tohsaka Rin

2016-04-02, 12:35 AM

So please, go into details, because I literally can't see the problem you attempt to point out!

And as for the "PCs are the one I have to answer to" part, ain't that a bit too emotional? I, as the one who sends them challenges, have to carefully gauge my encounters, and I have the control on the story narrative. I mentor the players so that every character has a meaningful role to play. Mechanics have so little to do with it.

Detail being 'I was talking about my experiences with Star Wars D20 Revised'. Though there, crits went straight to wounds, so there's that. Probably less of a problem without that bit.

On the other hand, burning your health for casting and abilities was in there, too. And guess what? Everyone hated burning their Vit on powers, then catching a lucky crit and dropping, when otherwise, it would have been shrugged off.

As for too emotional, well, I was talking about a system that sent crits to wounds. What do you think kept happening? A bargain-bin regular blaster pistol did 3d6, and the best a level 1 human could start out with was 18 Con. Not a huge margin for error, there.

EDIT - I suppose in your proposed changes, you've made Sneak Attacks the go-to ability now, since those can directly deal damage to wounds. Not a lot, but since wound points are low, that's not too big of a deal. So, I revise my comment on crits being super-deadly to 'a lucky crit on a sneak attack is super-deadly'.

Oh, and I guess crit-fishers are more deadly too, since if I'm reading this right, critical hits sent the crit multiplier straight to wounds? Ouch.

Oroul

2016-04-02, 02:02 AM

For some simple math, 70% hitrate:
2 attacks: He's getting hit twice only 49% of the time, hit once the other 52% of the time, all miss 9% of the time.
(This amounts to an effective 25% damage reduction if both attacks would always be hitting on average)
3 attacks: All three attacks hit only 34.3% of the time, he gets hit twice 51.1% of the time, hit once 21.9% of the time, and all miss 2.7% of the time (This time a 24.3% damage reduction)
And so forth. Of course, if we talk the 50% hitrate we were discussing earlier, it goes:
2 attacks: He's getting hit twice only 25% of the time, hit once 50%, and all miss 25% of the time
(50% damage reduction on average)
3 attacks: He's getting hit thrice only 12.5% of the time, hit twice 37.5% of the time, hit once 37.5% of the time, and all attacks miss on 12.5% of the time (50% damage reduction on average as well)
Again, so forth.

Missed this one, my bad.

This better be an April's Fools joke. No martial class is overpowered-Being great at doing damage doesn't make you overpowered, particularly when a variety of encounter designs can make your build entirely useless. Heck, you need at least 9/9 fullcasting (and Prepared in most cases) to reach Tier 1, and Tier 2 is mostly fullcasters and a few 6/9 archetypes. Paizo martials at most will reach the "Competent and well rounded" level of power at best.
Being the "Strongest Martial" is basically saying "You are still a step below the Magus"

You are definitively missing something in here, being that damage dice aren't everything. Outside of size-stacking builds, damage mostly comes from fixed bonuses via class features/ability score/power attack, and the Quick Runner's Shirt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/shirt-quick-runners) only costs 1000 gp which means the martial can keep multiple spares and move as a swift action so he can full attack.

Hm, I guess this one can be a situational advantage for some martials at early levels, but in comparison to mid-to-late game, it ends up as a disadvantage, considering how lategame Barbarian can basically rage for all his daily encounters no problem and the Paladin similarly gets enough smites for the strongest enemy in each encounter every day.

You know how Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) used to be one of the archetypes that bumped Fighter to Tier 4 before WMH was released? Feat versatility is pretty darn strong, particularly for spontaneous casters that can always get the exact metamagic feat they need for a situation (Or other feat) by burning a single level 2 spell, of which they have enough to spare. For more details here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ox7t?The-Mini-Guide-to-Paragon-Surge)

I like my martials being competent, so Path of War being allowed is a given. And whether certain material being allowed or not counts as a houserule (Which is generally interpreted as some RAW or RAI being overruled by the DM, rather than what materials are allowed)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained#TOC-Rogue-s-Edge-Ex-

I will not cut your comment quote by quote as it is too much of an hassle. Writing this from a phone.

For the math portion, are you arguing that spending 86% of one's budget on AC, especially a wizard, for an average of 25% less damage to be a buff? Seriously?

As another pointed out, this is very inefficient.

For the "martials can't be overpowered", the true problem martials face is a lack of control over the narrative. I suggest you look up AM BARBARIAN.

As for the Quick Runner's Shirt, 1/day/shirt and occupies the chest slot. Not saying it's bad, but it's a pain to switch in battle, so it's not of so much importance in my example now, is it?

For the Feat-for-a-spell, I understand what you mean. The brawler's martial flexibility feature is a lot less powerful than a mere spell. I agree. Hopefully, none of my players even heard of it.

Finally, as a player, I played every type of martial there is, using Paizo stuff only. When you enjoy optimizing a bit, they're fine. Heck, give them a decent way to craft themselves equipment, remove metamagic rods (which I'll probably do) and pearls of power, along with buffing everyone's worst saves and throwing in a few more skill points and I can picture them staying relevant long past level 6.

Oroul

2016-04-02, 02:21 AM

Detail being 'I was talking about my experiences with Star Wars D20 Revised'. Though there, crits went straight to wounds, so there's that. Probably less of a problem without that bit.

On the other hand, burning your health for casting and abilities was in there, too. And guess what? Everyone hated burning their Vit on powers, then catching a lucky crit and dropping, when otherwise, it would have been shrugged off.

As for too emotional, well, I was talking about a system that sent crits to wounds. What do you think kept happening? A bargain-bin regular blaster pistol did 3d6, and the best a level 1 human could start out with was 18 Con. Not a huge margin for error, there.

EDIT - I suppose in your proposed changes, you've made Sneak Attacks the go-to ability now, since those can directly deal damage to wounds. Not a lot, but since wound points are low, that's not too big of a deal. So, I revise my comment on crits being super-deadly to 'a lucky crit on a sneak attack is super-deadly'.

Oh, and I guess crit-fishers are more deadly too, since if I'm reading this right, critical hits sent the crit multiplier straight to wounds? Ouch.

If one cares about weakening themselves for their class abilities, they can play Fighter / Gunslinger, and enjoy a character without such drawbacks.

Furthermore, armor now comes with built in % off damage, and crits don't tax one's ability to stand, so that lucky crit has no effect whatsoever.

If sneak attackers actually become feared, then my goal is achieved. The characters whose fluff is to fight dirty and go for the throat should cause that kind of sentiment.

Finally, crit fishers rely on the d20. With my alternate dice rolling offered, this means that no matter how easily you could hit that target with a safe attack, you incur a 5% chance to disarm yourself / damage your weapon / lose iterative attacks so you can aim for the wounds first.

My humble opinion is that battering your foe into submission then give Coups-de-Grace will be much more efficient, especially since it doesn't benefit from monstrous Con bonus * Hit die, along with making sure your rogue sheat his daggers in an opponent's lungs.

It also makes taking prisoners a lot easier.

Oroul

2016-04-02, 02:45 AM

That's the reason for the thread isn't it? :D

One way would be 3.5's version being ported back in. Without rest they can only do X a few times per day. As this is exactly like spells. Paladin has 4 Smiteslots, Thog has 4 Rageslots, Marduk has 4 1st Level Spellslots.
I get what you are trying to do (as in extending the versimilitude to better cover the oddness of being suddenly not Rage(tm) angry or not being as inspiring anymore).

Stamina management, yes. But the management of external resources (i.e. uses per day of Smite, rounds of rage/day and so on) is also a way to say these things. And I have never heard of a party resting because the Barbarian could not rage anymore. The Wizard or Cleric not having anymore spells would be a more common reason for that. Since at least the Wizard is in the worst case just a high level commoner without his spells. And I thought the "Thog need to catch breath" was pictured (at least until Tireless rage) in form of fatigue/exhaustion from raging.

Vigor points as I interpreted them are overextertions, stamina, small cuts and bruises. Despite no manipulation intended by me, I interpreted the whole block about metagaming as "target"(lack of better term) and intended that my answer would be about what I feel about it (that I don't like it). Mostly because IF I were to use it, I would be opening at least with Bard and Barbarian two pretty exploitable systems. (Thog spends 3 vigor points each round to rage again and then use a Rage-ending power... ragecycling from level 1. Or what about damage reduction, fast healing? etc.)
Another thing I don't like is that for some classes, their sole big class feature (Rage, Smite and LoH) is changed, while other's have a tweak to none or marginally small(Fighter, or Domain Powers) change without affecting their big class feature (casting).
(Sidenote: currently spending the money I earn is probably = "damage" to myself, since my income is from donating Bloodplasma atm. But with "the way you wrote it" I meant just that my interpretation of what you wrote in the concerning paragraph is, at least for me, similar to light masochism. As in that was the first thing that I thought while reading this.)

My words weren't meant as a challenge... I should probably have said that you should talk about this exact thing with your friends. Because changing the current system of "I can smite 3 wicked people today/I can rage for 2 minutes" to (again, at least in my eyes) your approach. I would not like that. But if your group runs well with it, then by all means do it.(Not like I could stop you if I wanted :D)

I am sorry if this is, again, a more emotional answer

Do not misunderstand me. I love a challenge.

Before I joined my current pathfinder-only group, their rests were based upon how many healing spells the (their term) healer had.

So I introduced the wand of CLW.

Players have now discovered the concepts of resource management / attrition. We've got dangerous monkeys who developed a passion for wands, pearls of power and metamagic rods meaning resources rarely, if ever, run out.

By offering a hp ressource they can replenish easily (VP recovered between battles) along with auto-DR on armor and abilities that can be used more than X rounds per day, I actually allow non-casters to keep up with those who have 50 magic missiles, 50 scorching rays stored in wands and the ability to instantly recover any cast spell for utility!

Oroul

2016-04-02, 03:03 AM

Meant for Tuvarkz: Will implement skill unlocks for all classes. Reminds me of the LEGEND rpg.

Loved it. A pain to run, sadly.

Tuvarkz

2016-04-02, 04:06 AM

I will not cut your comment quote by quote as it is too much of an hassle. Writing this from a phone.

For the math portion, are you arguing that spending 86% of one's budget on AC, especially a wizard, for an average of 25% less damage to be a buff? Seriously?

As another pointed out, this is very inefficient.

Actually, this one was for AC in general, not just Wizard, and as I have pointed out, Overland Flight fixes this problem from 9th level onwards.

For the "martials can't be overpowered", the true problem martials face is a lack of control over the narrative. I suggest you look up AM BARBARIAN.

Ragepounce? Which gets stopped by one of the following?
1) Flying+direct LoS block outside of monstruous mount (Assuming Mounted Fury Barbarian qualifies for it as his feature is Bestial Mount and not Mount)
2) Difficult Terrain (Unless mount has Dragon Style)/outright unpassable terrain
3) Other enemies in the way (And if your mount fails the overrun check, you can't get past them while the big guy remains safe)
4) Versus bigger enemies, the mount getting tripped as AoO/Barbarian's weapon being sundered(Although the latter is unlikely as DMs tend to not sunder gear)

As for the Quick Runner's Shirt, 1/day/shirt and occupies the chest slot. Not saying it's bad, but it's a pain to switch in battle, so it's not of so much importance in my example now, is it?

You generally won't end up needing it more than once per battle (As you just need to move in full attack and the rest of the team should finish the enemy), and then you can take your time to switch it out of combat. And then, none of the other chest slot items are particularly useful for most martials anyways (Or at least not useful enough to guarantee the extra gold expenditure).

Finally, as a player, I played every type of martial there is, using Paizo stuff only. When you enjoy optimizing a bit, they're fine. Heck, give them a decent way to craft themselves equipment, remove metamagic rods (which I'll probably do) and pearls of power, along with buffing everyone's worst saves and throwing in a few more skill points and I can picture them staying relevant long past level 6.

"Using Pazio stuff only" would imply no houserules to begin with. The fact that you need to give them plenty of buffs and remove stuff from casters (Of which metamagic rods are the bigger real nerf as prepared fullcasters tend to have far more than enough spell slots than what they need each day-Heck, I believe this hurts the Magus the most of them all! with Pearls and the Tiefling with Rod+Prehensile Tail are two of their bigger assets)

Oroul

2016-04-02, 04:04 PM

Actually, this one was for AC in general, not just Wizard, and as I have pointed out, Overland Flight fixes this problem from 9th level onwards.
What were you trying to correct then?

Ragepounce? Which gets stopped by one of the following?
1) Flying+direct LoS block outside of monstruous mount (Assuming Mounted Fury Barbarian qualifies for it as his feature is Bestial Mount and not Mount)
2) Difficult Terrain (Unless mount has Dragon Style)/outright unpassable terrain
3) Other enemies in the way (And if your mount fails the overrun check, you can't get past them while the big guy remains safe)
4) Versus bigger enemies, the mount getting tripped as AoO/Barbarian's weapon being sundered(Although the latter is unlikely as DMs tend to not sunder gear)

No... I meant AM BARBARIAN specifically.
1) / 2) / 3) / 4) Mount is synthesist through leadership feat, can fly. best case scenario, LoS merely delays AM. You still have no way to harm him.

I am not saying no build ever could take him. Diviner 20 + Time Stop + Rod of Greater Quicken + Summon Monster 9 a couple time + Teleport without error. Summoned monsters have the specific task to sunder AM's weapon, then armor. Rinse. Repeat.

But saying AM / or RAGELANCEPOUNCE is not overpowered because very specific builds can be made to try and counter him is laughable. He still, however, lacks narrative control, where the wizard and cleric don't. That much I agree on.

You generally won't end up needing it more than once per battle (As you just need to move in full attack and the rest of the team should finish the enemy), and then you can take your time to switch it out of combat. And then, none of the other chest slot items are particularly useful for most martials anyways (Or at least not useful enough to guarantee the extra gold expenditure).

What? Battles are one Full-Attack-Action then clean-up crew? You and I definitely don't face up the same encounters I did as a player. Or he doesn't scale them to your optimization level. If your DM always send only one strong guy against a team of 4, always from 60 feet away or less, without significant cover / defensive buff and spells / difficult terrain, whether he is aware or not, he's feeding you encounters tailored to your very specific build.

While I have nothing against it (players should have the opportunity to validate their choices once in a while), when I do so, I expect an easy victory as results.

"Using Pazio stuff only" would imply no houserules to begin with. The fact that you need to give them plenty of buffs and remove stuff from casters (Of which metamagic rods are the bigger real nerf as prepared fullcasters tend to have far more than enough spell slots than what they need each day-Heck, I believe this hurts the Magus the most of them all! with Pearls and the Tiefling with Rod+Prehensile Tail are two of their bigger assets)

First of all, I think you forgot to complete your second sentence due to the part in parenthesis.

Second, what "buffs" do I give specifically to martials? Armor, as well as alternative die rolls and higher BaB / Bad Saves serve the Cleric, Oracle, Magus and Bard just as well if not more. The wound points Rogue can aim for to end encounters more quickly can be aimed at with Harm Spells just as well. You decried the modifications to Rage, Smite and Divine Grace as being debuffs, and the rest is pretty much alteration to the whole game mechanic! Please have some consistency in your criticism!

Third of all, read the recent reply to Thosaka Rin. Believe me the removal of Metamagic Rod / Pearls of Power will hurt the Wizard and Druid. They still have other options for the later, albeit much less flexible, but losing the ability to use ALMOST ANY metamagic ANYTIME on ANY of their max-level spell? Definitely a blow. And yeah, the very obscure feat that allows to place one of two metamagic when you roll your Knowledge Engineering in d6 and make a minigame out of it is banned.

Aside from the Magical Lineage, you want the metamagic, you spend the spell slot.

So please. If someone else made this argument alone, I would dismiss as a CR 4 troll (that is one with a weakening template) and move on. EVERYTHING that is to be implemented in a game is OPTIONAL and REQUIRES APPROBATION FROM THE DM.

For the sake of clarity, in the game I am planning on, barring a few exceptions, every option from the Core Rule Book, the Advanced Player Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Campaign, Advanced Race Guide, Magic Item Compendiums and, when they reach it, Mythic Campaigns will be legitimate, except for Variant Rules.

I will use 3rd party material I specifically produce for the campaign along with anything the players REALLY want to try, make a good case of, and get 4 / 5 of the group to agree on trying.

Tuvarkz

2016-04-02, 06:11 PM

What were you trying to correct then?

Even when spending ALL resources toward AC (feats and enough money to make sure he still use a +1 weapon), a Purple Wurm will hit a level 10 fighter around 55% of the time. The poison / swallowing then becomes unavoidable. Armor becomes a liability.

This part, I was trying to correct, that sometimes just a 50% missrate is enough for AC to reduce a significant amount of damage. And to note in the specific case of the Purple Worm, it has considerably low AC for its CR, and pitifully low Initiative/Will saves.

No... I meant AM BARBARIAN specifically.
1) / 2) / 3) / 4) Mount is synthesist through leadership feat, can fly. best case scenario, LoS merely delays AM. You still have no way to harm him.

I am not saying no build ever could take him. Diviner 20 + Time Stop + Rod of Greater Quicken + Summon Monster 9 a couple time + Teleport without error. Summoned monsters have the specific task to sunder AM's weapon, then armor. Rinse. Repeat.

But saying AM / or RAGELANCEPOUNCE is not overpowered because very specific builds can be made to try and counter him is laughable. He still, however, lacks narrative control, where the wizard and cleric don't. That much I agree on.

That issue lies more with Leadership than AM BARBARIAN (To the point where it's generally assumed that Leadership is banned unless contrary statement in a lot of places). Heck, why is the mount not the summoner's eidolon while the summoner stays unfused, casting spells? (Unless I'm missing something here)

What? Battles are one Full-Attack-Action then clean-up crew? You and I definitely don't face up the same encounters I did as a player. Or he doesn't scale them to your optimization level. If your DM always send only one strong guy against a team of 4, always from 60 feet away or less, without significant cover / defensive buff and spells / difficult terrain, whether he is aware or not, he's feeding you encounters tailored to your very specific build.

While I have nothing against it (players should have the opportunity to validate their choices once in a while), when I do so, I expect an easy victory as results.

Because we're talking a Large+melee enemy, he's either a part of an encounter with more enemies which means that yes he'll get wiped with the action economy of four characters, or he's a big solo guy with something akin to paladin save bonuses so he doesn't get instagibbed, in which case full-attack+team doesn't do the job on the first round, but regardless action economy advantage is going to end up with the team with disastrous results for the big (and mostly lone) enemy martial.

First of all, I think you forgot to complete your second sentence due to the part in parenthesis.

Second, what "buffs" do I give specifically to martials? Armor, as well as alternative die rolls and higher BaB / Bad Saves serve the Cleric, Oracle, Magus and Bard just as well if not more. The wound points Rogue can aim for to end encounters more quickly can be aimed at with Harm Spells just as well. You decried the modifications to Rage, Smite and Divine Grace as being debuffs, and the rest is pretty much alteration to the whole game mechanic! Please have some consistency in your criticism!

As I've stated earlier the /day uses>Vigor change may actually end up as a martial buff depending on the situation, the buff to armor ends up as a plus as its martials who will end up more of the time wearing medium/heavy armor frequently. You net them some bonus feats and feat chain simplifications as well. The save buff does help both sides similarly (Except for Magus, since Reflex saves are generally the least important of the group, particularly when facing spellcasters). Higher BAB is functionally only a +4 to the attack rolls of the classes you mentioned from level 17 onwards, while instead their more important feature (Spells, particularly the shocking grasp spam for the magus (1k gp a pop for 10d6 damage!) as well as rods) get their access limited in return.(Warpriest and Inquisitor plus a couple other 6/9s might be an exception to this, though)
As a cohesive whole, you are bringing up the weaker martials (Namely, not barbarian/paladin/bloodrager, the paladin being specifically nerfed) up, while at the same time the 6/9s get brought down, while overall the fullcasters have far less to lose because they not need mind losing some spell recovery when they still got plenty and can become more dedicated to their casting. (And indeed, Oracles/Clerics enjoy being really powerful martials with fullcasting to boot if they want to)

Oroul

2016-04-03, 09:13 AM

This part, I was trying to correct, that sometimes just a 50% missrate is enough for AC to reduce a significant amount of damage. And to note in the specific case of the Purple Worm, it has considerably low AC for its CR, and pitifully low Initiative/Will saves.
90% of your budget for a 50% miss rate when facing an attack with Grab and Swallow Whole at a CMB of +36, or a poison DC 25, is of little comfort. Low initiative means little past the first round, which, according to your boast, is everything. Won't be in our game, possibly due to the lack of initiators.

But for the Will save part. Well. I learned something new. Thanks.

Purple Worm have an intelligence score. They do not benefit from vermin's immunity. While a lot of spell still doesn't work (hold person, suggestion), or yield too few benefits for the risk incurred (bestow curse, harm are touch spell getting you poisoned and/or swallowed for even trying), CHARM MONSTER (and fear, for a time) does work pretty well. Which means that the purple worm was put in the game, consciously or not, so that the friggin' wizard can become a friggin' Kwizatch Haderach riding Shaï-Hulud.

So +4 Will Vs. DC 10 + 4 (spell level) + 7 (intelligence) + 2 (School Focus)... Succeeds only on a 19. Then Charisma checks. And guess what, Purple Worm got a penalty there.

Yup. It's designed to be unkillable for unoptimized martials (think sword and board with only 50% of budget on AC and specialized in longswords), yet instantly become the Wizard's bitch, making sure he is lauded their savior. They stretched that very cheap DUNE parody this far.

That issue lies more with Leadership than AM BARBARIAN (To the point where it's generally assumed that Leadership is banned unless contrary statement in a lot of places). Heck, why is the mount not the summoner's eidolon while the summoner stays unfused, casting spells? (Unless I'm missing something here)
I think it was something about the eidolon's max range and charge range or to keep the summoner safe. They somehow figured out a way to charge farther than LoS would allow due to the curve of the Earth. Besides, give him a friggin' griffin (huh, I'm never writting griffin again without "friggin" before), and the results will be similar. Again, I don't care if AM BARBARIAN can be beaten at all, it still is proof martials can break this subpar game. It's just a lot more difficult to do. More credit to his creator.

Because we're talking a Large+melee enemy, he's either a part of an encounter with more enemies which means that yes he'll get wiped with the action economy of four characters, or he's a big solo guy with something akin to paladin save bonuses so he doesn't get instagibbed, in which case full-attack+team doesn't do the job on the first round, but regardless action economy advantage is going to end up with the team with disastrous results for the big (and mostly lone) enemy martial.
3 Ogres are CR 6 and, barely, a hard encounter for a party of of 4 level 4 characters. I can't fathom your team dispatching them with one charge, a skill monkey's excuse for an attack and two level two spells. Same thing with 3 flesh golems for a lvl 8 party, or 3 adult magma dragons on a lvl 13 party keeping to the air and slinging dispel magic spells on casters as counterspells while a third one uses his breath weapons.

And, guess what, if your group is relatively well optimized, especially with PoW stuff, I'd have no problem considering it 1 APL higher than it actually is, making these encounters "challenging" instead of "hard", and use the long XP track to counterbalance the extra XP. As I said, I really don't think we're facing the same kind of challenges. At all.

As I've stated earlier the /day uses>Vigor change may actually end up as a martial buff depending on the situation, the buff to armor ends up as a plus as its martials who will end up more of the time wearing medium/heavy armor frequently.
Do you realize that, by this comment, you made the cleric / druid and oracle martial characters, as well as monk, rogue, ninja and gunslinger casters?

You net them some bonus feats and feat chain simplifications as well.
Once again, Melee cleric / Sorcerer and Magus are martial, Gunslinger is not. Either way, if THIS is "plenty of buffs", I am definitely okay with it. That is, after all, one of my objectives.

The save buff does help both sides similarly (Except for Magus, since Reflex saves are generally the least important of the group, particularly when facing spellcasters). In facts, it considerably weakens the Monk's all high save more than the Magus'. I do feel bad about this. If a player plays monk, I'll look into specific ways to buff them.

Higher BAB is functionally only a +4 to the attack rolls of the classes you mentioned from level 17 onwards, while instead their more important feature (Spells, particularly the shocking grasp spam for the magus (1k gp a pop for 10d6 damage!) as well as rods) get their access limited in return.(Warpriest and Inquisitor plus a couple other 6/9s might be an exception to this, though)
Isn't it, once again, my stated objective? If, in-game, you walk to a caster and ask him to do that specific trade, he'll laugh at you. And the fighter will look at the wizard's new BaB, look at the wizard's answer and silently wish it would be implemented. That is precisely why it need to be implemented, otherwise the whole system will collapse a few levels ahead just like Canada's welfare state. I am 100% comfortable with this.

You don't want the lightly armored melee character dual-wielding spells and enchanting his weapon on the go because the rogue essentially doesn't have to coup-de-grâce anyone, which MAY be a way to dispatch opponents more quickly when they're up and about? Be my guest.

As a cohesive whole, you are bringing up the weaker martials (Namely, not barbarian/paladin/bloodrager, the paladin being specifically nerfed) up, while at the same time the 6/9s get brought down, while overall the fullcasters have far less to lose because they not need mind losing some spell recovery when they still got plenty and can become more dedicated to their casting. (And indeed, Oracles/Clerics enjoy being really powerful martials with fullcasting to boot if they want to)
That sounds like a success to me, especially since yourself described the alteration to Barbarian / Paladin as "circumstancial buffs" which was the objective. I feel we do not have the same appreciation of what 2 pearls of power and a metamagic rod can do. Next change you get to roll a character, try them out: The gold efficiency is simply bewildering. Especially with the Maximize and Quicken rods.

Which brings me to one forgotten house rule I meant to implement, but forgot to place in my OP. (and I will edit it in shortly)

Thrown hundred of feet away, area spells always have perfect accuracy allowing to surgically and perfectly affect enemies while avoiding allies.
This leads to area spells designed like artillery to have perfect accuracy.
Area spells not specifically centered on the caster now require a ranged touch attack against AC [8 + (2 x spell level)]. Concealment and cover / soft cover that the targeted center of the effect "benefits" from apply to the AC of this attack, but range never incurs one. Failure, either due to concealment or to not hitting the target AC requires the caster to roll a scatter dice (1d8 as per splash weapons) and a d3. The result of the d3 is the distance of the scatter. "Spells" is now a valid choice for the Weapon Focus feats chain as well the Fighter's Weapon Training Feature, but the damage bonus does not apply on area spells and/or spells that do ability / level damage.

Tuvarkz

2016-04-03, 11:11 AM

90% of your budget for a 50% miss rate when facing an attack with Grab and Swallow Whole at a CMB of +36, or a poison DC 25, is of little comfort. Low initiative means little past the first round, which, according to your boast, is everything. Won't be in our game, possibly due to the lack of initiators.

Actually, let's take a level 10 Fighter into account. 92k gp, spending limit on AC will be 50% so 46k gp and a target AC of 36. 10+3 (DEX)=13 baseline, we need 23 to meet range. A +5 Full Plate nets you a +14 bonus to AC for 26650 gp (To count that Fightan armor training raises the max dex to +3), for 27 AC so far. +2 Neck of Armor and +2 Ring for 16k total and get you to 31 AC. Now you just bring some potions of Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shield) for 50 gp a pop (let's say you invest into 10 for 500 gp) and you're at 35 AC=45% missrate. Total expenditure is 43150 gp. Combat Expertise or Defensive weapon training should do the job. (This is assuming you don't want to go with 1hander+shield and lose damage).
Same mister fighter still has another 39k gp worth to invest into offensive potential (Shoving 9k away for a Cloak of Resistance +3 and another 850 gp for miscellanei) and gets a Belt of STR +2 for 4k, a +2 weapon for around 8500 gp, Gloves of Dueling for 15k, and a Cracked Pale Green Prism ioun Stone for 4k.
This makes his attack bonus 10 (base)+6 (STR, 18 base+2 from levelup+2 from belt)+4 (Weapon Training)+1(Competence from PgP Ioun)+2 from weapon=23/18/13 AC, without taking into account Weapon Focus+GWP likely raising it to 25. Taking into account that even with power attack you should be hitting twice on a full attack, you should deal:
2d6(7)+9 (STR)+4(Weap Training)+2(Weapon Spec)+2(Magic Weapon)+9(Power Attack)=33 times two, aka 66 damage on average, neatly one third of the guy's HP, with other stuff taken into account for. If mister Wizard or other spellcaster went first and hasted him, Fighter gets a third attack that still likely hits, so let's say 99 damage and half the guy's HP. Second damage dealer in the team likely finishes the job.

I think it was something about the eidolon's max range and charge range or to keep the summoner safe. They somehow figured out a way to charge farther than LoS would allow due to the curve of the Earth. Besides, give him a friggin' griffin (huh, I'm never writting griffin again without "friggin" before), and the results will be similar. Again, I don't care if AM BARBARIAN can be beaten at all, it still is proof martials can break this subpar game. It's just a lot more difficult to do. More credit to his creator.

As I said, this is more a fault of the Leadership fault than the Barbarian (Mostly because the feat has no prereqs), in the similar way it's more the fault of Paragon Surge than the guys casting it.

3 Ogres are CR 6 and, barely, a hard encounter for a party of of 4 level 4 characters. I can't fathom your team dispatching them with one charge, a skill monkey's excuse for an attack and two level two spells. Same thing with 3 flesh golems for a lvl 8 party, or 3 adult magma dragons on a lvl 13 party keeping to the air and slinging dispel magic spells on casters as counterspells while a third one uses his breath weapons.

We were discussing Vital Strike, and neither Ogres (who have 4 HD and thus don't qualify for it) nor flesh golems (who do not have feats unless you modify them to do so) have access to. The dragons might, but then the strategy you describe doesn't involve Vital Striking.

Do you realize that, by this comment, you made the cleric / druid and oracle martial characters, as well as monk, rogue, ninja and gunslinger casters?

Once again, Melee cleric / Sorcerer and Magus are martial, Gunslinger is not. Either way, if THIS is "plenty of buffs", I am definitely okay with it. That is, after all, one of my objectives.

In facts, it considerably weakens the Monk's all high save more than the Magus'. I do feel bad about this. If a player plays monk, I'll look into specific ways to buff them.

Isn't it, once again, my stated objective? If, in-game, you walk to a caster and ask him to do that specific trade, he'll laugh at you. And the fighter will look at the wizard's new BaB, look at the wizard's answer and silently wish it would be implemented. That is precisely why it need to be implemented, otherwise the whole system will collapse a few levels ahead just like Canada's welfare state. I am 100% comfortable with this.

You don't want the lightly armored melee character dual-wielding spells and enchanting his weapon on the go because the rogue essentially doesn't have to coup-de-grâce anyone, which MAY be a way to dispatch opponents more quickly when they're up and about? Be my guest.

That sounds like a success to me, especially since yourself described the alteration to Barbarian / Paladin as "circumstancial buffs" which was the objective. I feel we do not have the same appreciation of what 2 pearls of power and a metamagic rod can do. Next change you get to roll a character, try them out: The gold efficiency is simply bewildering. Especially with the Maximize and Quicken rods.

My point is not that the martials are undeserving of the buff, but that you're not hitting fullcasters as hard as you're hitting 6/9 casters with these changes. 6/9 casters are not the problem, fullcasters are. (To be specific, prepared guys will probably have an easier time with no pearls/no rods, if only because they have the additional spell slots to do so.)

Thrown hundred of feet away, area spells always have perfect accuracy allowing to surgically and perfectly affect enemies while avoiding allies.
This leads to area spells designed like artillery to have perfect accuracy.
Area spells not specifically centered on the caster now require a ranged touch attack against AC [8 + (2 x spell level)]. Concealment and cover / soft cover that the targeted center of the effect "benefits" from apply to the AC of this attack, but range never incurs one. Failure, either due to concealment or to not hitting the target AC requires the caster to roll a scatter dice (1d8 as per splash weapons) and a d3. The result of the d3 is the distance of the scatter. "Spells" is now a valid choice for the Weapon Focus feats chain as well the Fighter's Weapon Training Feature, but the damage bonus does not apply on area spells and/or spells that do ability / level damage.

Would need to check some math to see how this one pans out.

Oroul

2016-04-03, 01:34 PM

Would need to check some math to see how this one pans out.
Please do so: Our back and forth have been enlightening, although I'll agree to disagree.

Actually, let's take a level 10 Fighter into account.
Okay.

92k gp
30k over the Character Wealth by Level chart, Core Book p. 399. I agree the chart is a bit on the cheap side, but it helps compensate the tremendous amount of customization characters don't always get in game, or pay for in feats.

spending limit on AC will be 50% so 46k gp and a target AC of 36. 10+3 (DEX)=13 baseline, we need 23 to meet range. A +5 Full Plate nets you a +14 bonus to AC for 26650 gp (To count that Fightan armor training raises the max dex to +3), for 27 AC so far. +2 Neck of Armor and +2 Ring for 16k total and get you to 31 AC. Now you just bring some potions of Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shield) for 50 gp a pop (let's say you invest into 10 for 500 gp) and you're at 35 AC=45% missrate. Total expenditure is 43150 gp. Combat Expertise or Defensive weapon training should do the job. (This is assuming you don't want to go with 1hander+shield and lose damage).
The Shield spell is a great idea. Did this on my Sorcerer 1, Paladin 4, Dragon Disciple 6, using the Magical Lineage trait and still spell to cast it while in Full Plate. Was a fun character. Defensive weapon training however is really, really weak and won't do the job. But since I give Combat Expertise for free, that's 60% miss rate.

Once again, that's a bit on the generous side, equipment-wise, but I follow.

Same mister fighter still has another 39k gp worth to invest into offensive potential (Shoving 9k away for a Cloak of Resistance +3 and another 850 gp for miscellanei) and gets a Belt of STR +2 for 4k, a +2 weapon for around 8500 gp, Gloves of Dueling for 15k, and a Cracked Pale Green Prism ioun Stone for 4k.
This makes his attack bonus 10 (base)+6 (STR, 18 base+2 from levelup+2 from belt)+4 (Weapon Training)+1(Competence from PgP Ioun)+2 from weapon=23/18/13 AC, without taking into account Weapon Focus+GWP likely raising it to 25. Taking into account that even with power attack you should be hitting twice on a full attack, you should deal:
2d6(7)+9 (STR)+4(Weap Training)+2(Weapon Spec)+2(Magic Weapon)+9(Power Attack)=33 times two, aka 66 damage on average, neatly one third of the guy's HP, with other stuff taken into account for. If mister Wizard or other spellcaster went first and hasted him, Fighter gets a third attack that still likely hits, so let's say 99 damage and half the guy's HP. Second damage dealer in the team likely finishes the job.

Errrm. First, Weapon Training gives a +2 at level 9. That's 10 (base) + 6 (STR) + 2 (WT) + 1 (Ioun) + 1 (WF) + 1 (GWF) + 1 (MagWeap) - 3 (Combat Expertise) - 3 (Power Attack) or +16 / +16 / +11. Likewise, you deal 7 (2d6) + 9 (STR) +2 (WT) + 2 (WSpec) + 2 (MagWeap) + 9 (Power Attack) for 31 points of damage.

***

Against a trio of Bone Devils (CR 9, AC 25, DR 10/Good), you hit at 60% / 60 % / 35 %. That's 12.6 + 12.6 + 7.35 on average. You did 32.5 points of damage out of their combined 315 hit points. Congratz. On the plus side, if you avoid getting flanked, they only hit on a nat 20. On the minus side, 3 roll at 35% means another Bone Devil should pop in the fight and grant no XP, and you could very well fail a save vs. Poison.

That's 46k gold well spent.

Except that the Bone Devils will probably ignore you and find juicier targets. You have, after all, no way to bypass their DR, a shorter reach, no way to fly and no way to prevent them from teleporting once they fly. Or quickened-turn invisible. So you know, dead allies, Invisible Bone Devils that fly at will, good stuff.

***

Against the Purple Worm (Cr 12, AC 26), assuming it doesn't get an attack of opportunity, do not use its sting and do not successfully poison you , reducing both your to-hit bonus and damage bonus, you hit at 55% / 55% / 30% for 17.05 / 17.05 / 9.3 . That's about 15% of its HP. Then it hits you on 50% of it's attacks, so either the sting or the bite. Do we go with the +36 CMB (vs. 10 (Base) + 6 (STR) + 3 (DEX) + 10 (BaB)) requiring -7 on a d20 to hit (okay, 2, but only because negative values are not possible and a nat 1 always miss) or the DC 25 Poison for which your bonus is probably 7 (Base) + 2 (Con), requiring a 16 to succeed.

The later seems better, for now. But first your DPR drops, then your AC (due to encumbrance), then you can't move. And there's also the fact it's not really your choice. You go into that belly. Unless Kwizatch Haderach prepared Charm Monster. Or 4 maximized Scorching Ray. Thank the Rod / Pearls of Power! They saved you!

***

So yeah, even with that +50% budget, your fighter is insignificant. You could purchase a Ring of Free Movement to avoid the grapple, a holy weapon to bypass the Devils' DR (although it won't do much GOOD!), or you could put it on spells. Then again spells are actions you can't always prepare ahead of time, and the wizard / cleric may take other approaches, like Max. Scorching Ray the Worm (not having Charm Monster) or Holy Smite. My suggestion would be to spend 8000 on a dagger of Spell Storing, have the wizard cast Haste on it and, first thing in battle, stab yourself with it. You'll receive 1d4 point of damage, but it cost nothing to use. Or you could sink more of that already generous budget into potions of Haste.

As I said, this is more a fault of the Leadership fault than the Barbarian (Mostly because the feat has no prereqs), in the similar way it's more the fault of Paragon Surge than the guys casting it.
... sure. It has nothing to do with "Supertitious" and the human bonus bolstering it, bringing saves to levels untold and that is shared with his mount, or Spellsunder destroying any spell with but a swing (including illusions), or the fact that every attack he'll ever make will have a x2 modifier, and the fact he can full move, full attack and get the charge bonus on all of them almost all the time, and the fact he's got way more Strength than your little fighter may ever boast due to the Lance, or the ability to send back every creature a single summon spell ever invoked with a single attack. Those, together, would never break a game by trivializing any encounter.

We were discussing Vital Strike, and neither Ogres (who have 4 HD and thus don't qualify for it) nor flesh golems (who do not have feats unless you modify them to do so) have access to. The dragons might, but then the strategy you describe doesn't involve Vital Striking.
They are all examples of creatures that can hold their ground in an encounter so that it's not you + clean-up crew. But sure. A duel with your fighter and a large CR 9 creature using Vital Strike. I'll take the Ogre, and with rules suggested here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html) and give it 6 Barbarian levels. The first class level gives it +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +0 Int, -2 Cha for 25 / 10 / 19 / 6 / 12 / 5. His level 4 then add +1 Con on top of that for 25 / 10 / 20 / 6 / 12 / 5.

His HP is now 4d8 + 6d12 + 50 or 107
His BaB is now +9
"level" 6, he gained Weapon Focus: Greatclub
"level" 9, he gained Vital Strike
His speed is now 40 (base 50)
His attack bonus is now +17 / +12
Its equipment are those of a CR 9 NPC. Your DM is generous in loot and want you to benefit from increased loot, so he raise that at a lvl 12 NPC.

That's a +1 Greatclub, a +1 breastplate, a potion of Bull's Strength and a potion of shield.

It drank the potion of Bull's strength half an hour ago. As you drink a Shield Potion, he drinks his too. And rage. His HP goes up by 20 to reach 127. You get into melee, provoking an AoO. His attack swings at +22 [9 (base) + 7 (STR) + 1 (WP) + 1 (Enchant) + 4 (rage)] for 26[9 (2d8) + 10 (STR) + 1 (enchant) + 6 (Rage)], and you have not yet activated Combat Expertise activated, so that's AC 31. He hits on a 9, so 55% of the time, for an average of 14.3 damage.

You quick runner's shirt attack at +16 / +11 for 31 damage a hit. It's AC is 25 [10 (base) + 7 (+1 Breastplate) + 4 (Shield Potion) + 5 (Natural) - 1 (Dex)], so you also hit at 55% / 30% for 17.05 + 9.3. He absorbs the blows rather well.

He then moves 40 feets away as a single move action, provokes an attack of opportunity for another 17.05 damage and readies a Vital Strike as soon as you enter melee with it. Your shirt is depleted, so you have only bad options: you must charge. As you do, you can't use Combat Expertise, as it is not a valid attack option to do so. AC 29. The swing is still at +22, but now deals 35 time 65% chance hit (due to charge AC penalty). That 22.65. Ouch. You then leave one of his threatened square, provoking an AoO for 26 x 65%, or 16.9.

You then attack with one single attack at +21 (+3 for not using Combat Expertise, +2 for the charge) and 31 damage, so an average of 26.35. You then get an AoO for 21.7 (no charge bonus), he readies an action, deal 22.65 and 16.9.

Although he is inferior in budget, feats, BaB and he can't have the resources to really challenge you, the strategy still deal about 57 damage on him per round and 39 on you. He should get, on average 92 damage before he is downed. And if your party is level 10, 3 of this guy should be an adequate (if hard) challenge. You can't charge and mop up such an encounter in one round.

My point is not that the martials are undeserving of the buff, but that you're not hitting fullcasters as hard as you're hitting 6/9 casters with these changes. 6/9 casters are not the problem, fullcasters are. (To be specific, prepared guys will probably have an easier time with no pearls/no rods, if only because they have the additional spell slots to do so.)
Prepared guys have more slots? Level 1 Sorcerer has 3 level 1 spell, Wizard got 1, 2 if he specializes. And both can get the extra slots from high ability scores. Level 9, that's 6+6+6+4 vs 5+5+4+3+2. Even with stats bonuses all aboard and specialization, sorcerer has one more! That's the exact opposite (until pearls / pages that benefits so much more the mage)!

Wizard preparing spells get his higher slots sooner, is more versatile (doesn't need to "unlearn spells") and come with extra feats like scribe scrolls. Spontaneous Sorcerer gets more spell slots and bloodline powers.

So yeah, I'll stick with what I have, and revise if need be.

Tuvarkz

2016-04-03, 02:27 PM

30k over the Character Wealth by Level chart, Core Book p. 399. I agree the chart is a bit on the cheap side, but it helps compensate the tremendous amount of customization characters don't always get in game, or pay for in feats.

Ffs, my bad here. I completely screwed up while reading the chart, was browsing other stuff in the meantime. Mea culpa.

Errrm. First, Weapon Training gives a +2 at level 9. That's 10 (base) + 6 (STR) + 2 (WT) + 1 (Ioun) + 1 (WF) + 1 (GWF) + 1 (MagWeap) - 3 (Combat Expertise) - 3 (Power Attack) or +16 / +16 / +11. Likewise, you deal 7 (2d6) + 9 (STR) +2 (WT) + 2 (WSpec) + 2 (MagWeap) + 9 (Power Attack) for 31 points of damage.

If we go with the gold I allotted, you should have noticed the Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling). For the fighter,
they do the nice little trick of increasing their weapon training bonus by +2 for a cheap 15k gold. Also, I believe I wasn't taking Combat Expertise into account, as the target AC (50% missrate) had already been reached, and overall fighting defensively isn't the best strategy of them all in Pathfinder. Combat Expertise is only a good combat choice if the enemy is hitting harder than you, which is already a bad position to be in.

They are all examples of creatures that can hold their ground in an encounter so that it's not you + clean-up crew. But sure. A duel with your fighter and a large CR 9 creature using Vital Strike. I'll take the Ogre, and with rules suggested here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html) and give it 6 Barbarian levels. The first class level gives it +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +0 Int, -2 Cha for 25 / 10 / 19 / 6 / 12 / 5. His level 4 then add +1 Con on top of that for 25 / 10 / 20 / 6 / 12 / 5.

Hm, didn't know that when adding class levels to a monster creature it got a juicy stat increase. Second, remember that CR is calculated versus a party of 4, which means that in a solo 1v1, the big guy's effective CR is 13, so the fight's still in mister fighter's favor, but not overtly so.

His HP is now 4d8 + 6d12 + 50 or 107
His BaB is now +9
"level" 6, he gained Weapon Focus: Greatclub
"level" 9, he gained Vital Strike
His speed is now 40 (base 50)
His attack bonus is now +17 / +12
Its equipment are those of a CR 9 NPC. Your DM is generous in loot and want you to benefit from increased loot, so he raise that at a lvl 12 NPC.

That's a +1 Greatclub, a +1 breastplate, a potion of Bull's Strength and a potion of shield.

It drank the potion of Bull's strength half an hour ago. As you drink a Shield Potion, he drinks his too. And rage. His HP goes up by 20 to reach 127. You get into melee, provoking an AoO. His attack swings at +22 [9 (base) + 7 (STR) + 1 (WP) + 1 (Enchant) + 4 (rage)] for 26[9 (2d8) + 10 (STR) + 1 (enchant) + 6 (Rage)], and you have not yet activated Combat Expertise activated, so that's AC 31. He hits on a 9, so 55% of the time, for an average of 14.3 damage.

You quick runner's shirt attack at +16 / +11 for 31 damage a hit. It's AC is 25 [10 (base) + 7 (+1 Breastplate) + 4 (Shield Potion) + 5 (Natural) - 1 (Dex)], so you also hit at 55% / 30% for 17.05 + 9.3. He absorbs the blows rather well.

He then moves 40 feets away as a single move action, provokes an attack of opportunity for another 17.05 damage and readies a Vital Strike as soon as you enter melee with it. Your shirt is depleted, so you have only bad options: you must charge. As you do, you can't use Combat Expertise, as it is not a valid attack option to do so. AC 29. The swing is still at +22, but now deals 35 time 65% chance hit (due to charge AC penalty). That 22.65. Ouch. You then leave one of his threatened square, provoking an AoO for 26 x 65%, or 16.9.

You then attack with one single attack at +21 (+3 for not using Combat Expertise, +2 for the charge) and 31 damage, so an average of 26.35. You then get an AoO for 21.7 (no charge bonus), he readies an action, deal 22.65 and 16.9.

Although he is inferior in budget, feats, BaB and he can't have the resources to really challenge you, the strategy still deal about 57 damage on him per round and 39 on you. He should get, on average 92 damage before he is downed. And if your party is level 10, 3 of this guy should be an adequate (if hard) challenge. You can't charge and mop up such an encounter in one round.

This sounds reasonable.

Prepared guys have more slots? Level 1 Sorcerer has 3 level 1 spell, Wizard got 1, 2 if he specializes. And both can get the extra slots from high ability scores. Level 9, that's 6+6+6+4 vs 5+5+4+3+2. Even with stats bonuses all aboard and specialization, sorcerer has one more! That's the exact opposite (until pearls / pages that benefits so much more the mage)!

Wizard preparing spells get his higher slots sooner, is more versatile (doesn't need to "unlearn spells") and come with extra feats like scribe scrolls. Spontaneous Sorcerer gets more spell slots and bloodline powers.

I am pretty sure Generalist was still a terrible pick. Additionally, remember that you can always take Sin Magic(The PFSRD name-in other places it's named Thassilonian Magic) , and although it locks you out of a powerful school in multiple cases, it comes at a powerful tradeback: Two more slots per level, which sets the level 9 math at 6+6+6+4 vs 7+7+6+5+4 (Not to take into account that they both have at least a +6 int score and thus the wizard likely has another level 5 slot to boot). And while this does force mister wizard to take either ranks into UMD (which he can key to Int with a trait) or reduce his spell flexibility, at around 60 spells per school (I believe divination had less but conjuration had more) this still leaves the wizard with bigger flexibility overall.

Oroul

2016-04-03, 04:01 PM

Ffs, my bad here. I completely screwed up while reading the chart, was browsing other stuff in the meantime. Mea culpa.

Happens :smalltongue: . But as I said, it's really on the cheapside. Then again, so are rods / pearls compared to magic weapon / armor.

If we go with the gold I allotted, you should have noticed the Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling). For the fighter,
they do the nice little trick of increasing their weapon training bonus by +2 for a cheap 15k gold. Also, I believe I wasn't taking Combat Expertise into account, as the target AC (50% missrate) had already been reached, and overall fighting defensively isn't the best strategy of them all in Pathfinder. Combat Expertise is only a good combat choice if the enemy is hitting harder than you, which is already a bad position to be in.

That. Is. Awesome. I have no idea why I had Gloves of Storing in my mind. Probably because I haven't sleeped in 24+ hours (was on night shift, returning on dayshift). This is basically an underused slot that allows for an extra +2 enhancement that you pay on the side. It's almost the offensive part of a rage. Gotta introduce that, and the sash, next time I get.

Hm, didn't know that when adding class levels to a monster creature it got a juicy stat increase. Second, remember that CR is calculated versus a party of 4, which means that in a solo 1v1, the big guy's effective CR is 13, so the fight's still in mister fighter's favor, but not overtly so.

I didn't either beforehand, I just wanted to be an autistic ******* and do it properly, step-by-step as you provided a lvl 10 character and I did not found any large creature with Vital strike that's CR 9. Besides, to a party of four, both of you guys are CR 9, so to be completely honest, it's supposed to be a fair fight. Or it would be if you both were equipped like a lvl 9 PC, but the difference is pretty much negligible.

This sounds reasonable.
In hindsight, I think Vital Strike originally serves two purposes.
1. Add some "Oooomph!" to attacks when you can't spend a Full Round Action (e.g. Readied Action)
2. Allow very unoptimized PCs deal damage on monsters that have DR.
As such, it's an excellent feat on Advanced Player's Guide's Crossbowman Fighter Archetype. Gotta ready actions for Dex Bonus on damage, might as well Focus shot or Vital Strike it.

I am pretty sure Generalist was still a terrible pick. Additionally, remember that you can always take Sin Magic(The PFSRD name-in other places it's named Thassilonian Magic) , and although it locks you out of a powerful school in multiple cases, it comes at a powerful tradeback: Two more slots per level, which sets the level 9 math at 6+6+6+4 vs 7+7+6+5+4 (Not to take into account that they both have at least a +6 int score and thus the wizard likely has another level 5 slot to boot). And while this does force mister wizard to take either ranks into UMD (which he can key to Int with a trait) or reduce his spell flexibility, at around 60 spells per school (I believe divination had less but conjuration had more) this still leaves the wizard with bigger flexibility overall.
Sooo... another completely broken option to sell obscure books my local Store will never keep. Gotta love the powercreep. I guess they have to eat and there's a market.

So you gain an extra slot you must spend on the same spell at the cost of fixed opposition schools. Huh. Still shies in comparison to the number of spells a Wishcrafter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ifrit/wishcrafter-sorcerer-ifrit) can cast. Of course, you're stuck into the ifrit specie (or human with Racial Heritage feat), who can cast one free spell per level for every PC / NPC he crosses path with.

I had tried a gestalt game. Had an encounter where guards were defending against monsters slightly above what the PCs should be facing. The encounter was balanced around the fact there were allies in the form of city guards. 4 became large and 2 ended up with magic weapons. The ifrit had to roleplay to get the guards to "spend their wish", and a PC had to show them how by spending his, but it was smart play.

As the ability doesn't limit to arcane spells, his oracle food spells were next, in a city struck by starvation, by the worldwound.

Sayt

2016-04-03, 07:17 PM

A note on Sin magic: it's one extra spell slot over specialist, both your spells in each specialist slot per level have to be the same spell, and it removes your opposition schools from your wizard spell list (can't prepare then at all and you need umd for wands and scrolls).

So I quite like it as a nerf to wizard's "I can do anything"-ness.

Oroul

2016-04-03, 08:29 PM

...and it removes your opposition schools from your wizard spell list (can't prepare then at all and you need umd for wands and scrolls).

I misread skipped over that part. And I doubt I'll ever see it in use, but still, thanks!