[3.5] When is it OK to DM Fiat CR?

[Thurbane]

So, I'd often heard about how OP for CR 3 that Runehounds are (not Damn Crab, but still). Fast healing, DR, immobilizing attack, relatively high damage output.

Our party:
- Human Cleric 3 (used Bull Strength on the Barbarian, and threw a Sound Burst at the Runehound)
- Hellbred (body) Binder 3 (had Focalor bound during encounter)
- Goblin Scout 3 (shot it with arrows)
- Dwarf Barbarian 3 (immobilized early on)

...this thing nearly TPK'd us. Immobilizing us with it's spit, attacking with reach and high movement rate. It knocked the Binder and Barbarian into negatives.

Side question: would the Travel Domain have helped free my cleric? Does the spittle count as a "magical effect"? We all bodged our knowledge checks, and in-character, have no idea what the creature was.

We've only just managed to locate and purchase a wand of CLW, which should help in future.

Anyway, I digress.

The DM (my fiance, in her first turn DMing, 6 or 7 sessions in) was wondering if it's OK for her to adjust the CR upwards, since it was such a hard fight.

My advice to her was yes, of course. I suggested CR 4, one of the other players CR 5.

Is there guidelines in any of the books on adjusting CR on the fly?

Cheers - T

[Godskook]

Short answer: Every single encounter.

Long answer: First, CR is BROKEN. Even when it isn't, it relies on a certain rough party archetype with certain levels of optimization. If your party is optimized poorly or too well, you could easily die horribly to something easy or mow through something that's supposed to be easy. Second, XP is a reward for being challenged. Your DM ~should~ reward you more when you are challenged more, and not at all if you aren't really challenged at all. That's why its called a challenge rating: It represents a challenge. Third, it is perfectly ok for a DM to completely remove the CR>XP conversion entirely, and use per-session, per-quest or per-town-visit xp handouts.

Finally, a DM only has to be concerned about two things: going overboard with xp adjustments and giving less in a way that offends PC sensibilities. Going overboard with too much XP will unbalance the campaign rather rapidly, while going overboard with too little or giving less means that your PCs rise up and rebel.

In this case, you're talking about x1.5-x2 xp for a single encounter. You'll be fine.

[XionUnborn01]

it's certainly something a DM can and should do.

Not every party is created equally. A party consisting of a Fighter, a Barbarian, a Monk, and a Rogue is a totally different challenge at level 4 than a Cleric, a Wizard, a Bard, and a Druid.

What is a challenging encounter to the first party could be a breeze to the second, conversely then, there's plenty of creatures where a brute force party could beat easier than the casters (probably).

So yeah, a printed CR 6 encounter may be a CR 9 to one party and a CR 5 or 4 to another, the DM just needs to know what the party is capable of.

[Inevitability]

The basic purpose of CR is to let you determine what monsters are what challenge and what rewards should be gotten for defeating them. However, both these rules are borked: monsters often have wrong challenge ratings and following the exact rewards will result in PC's gaining far too much wealth far too soon.

Instead, I recommend using CR only as the roughest of guidelines and determining challenge, treasure and XP yourself. If you know your party it should be possible.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, I'd often heard about how OP for CR 3 that Runehounds are (not Damn Crab, but still). Fast healing, DR, immobilizing attack, relatively high damage output.

Our party:
- Human Cleric 3 (used Bull Strength on the Barbarian, and threw a Sound Burst at the Runehound)
- Hellbred (body) Binder 3 (had Focalor bound during encounter)
- Goblin Scout 3 (shot it with arrows)
- Dwarf Barbarian 3 (immobilized early on)

...this thing nearly TPK'd us. Immobilizing us with it's spit, attacking with reach and high movement rate. It knocked the Binder and Barbarian into negatives.

Side question: would the Travel Domain have helped free my cleric? Does the spittle count as a "magical effect"? We all bodged our knowledge checks, and in-character, have no idea what the creature was.

We've only just managed to locate and purchase a wand of CLW, which should help in future.

Anyway, I digress.

The DM (my fiance, in her first turn DMing, 6 or 7 sessions in) was wondering if it's OK for her to adjust the CR upwards, since it was such a hard fight.

My advice to her was yes, of course. I suggested CR 4, one of the other players CR 5.

Is there guidelines in any of the books on adjusting CR on the fly?

Cheers - T

All of a runehound's numbers are in line with CR 3. Seems to me that the DM played the creature well and got lucky. I wouldn't think a CR adjustment was warranted. Sometimes the dice eat characters. That's just a consequence of including that element of random chance in the game.

BTW, most of what people are talking about is encounter level anyway, not CR. If you have two runehouds they don't suddenly become CR5 but it -does- become an EL 5 encounter.

It sucks that you had to blow more resources on the encounter than normal but sometimes these things happen. I wouldn't consider changing a creature's CR unless something about it was -way- out of line for a creature of that level (looking at you MM2 critters.) The CR system is -grossly- maligned by most of the community well out of proportion with its actual degree of inaccuracy.

[OldTrees1]

It is always OK for the DM to fiat CR. Even if we lived in a world where WotC could accurately estimate CR, the DMG would still advice DMs to fiat CR when an encounter's difficultly differs from the current CR assigned to it.

I forget the exact page but the encounter section of the DMG mentions how to adjust CR based on difficulty.

[Fizban]

The DM should be fine altering CR as long as it's consistent between the encounters they use. Counting a Human Warrior 11 and a Nycoloth both at CR 10 is madness, but if you only use one or the other it's fine.

The Runehound is a pretty strong CR 3 creature comparable to a Dire Wolf but loaded with extras, and unfortunately it matches up very well against your party. Small arrows vs DR, fast healing vs binder cooldowns, speed+reach+control vs melee. You simply lacked the punch to kill it hard enough. I'd expect similar problems against Imps and Quasits (which also have DR+fast healing), except the Runehound is just all-around bigger. You might also check to be sure she didn't forget the cooldown on Vile Spew, it's 1d4 rounds just like dragonbreath.

I'd categorize this as an "easy if handled properly" encounter, which became quite deadly since you lacked the means/knowledge to handle it properly. Did you have silvered weapons/arrows and did you try them? Note that the immobilization is from a single target Web effect which means you should be able to burn yourself out of it, though I'll admit I just realized that now and there's no indication of it in the usual description. I think if you're all equipped with silver weapons/arrows and pile on immediately in future fights, it could stay at CR 3. If that doesn't seem reasonable (or it turns out that isn't enough to bring it down without more than 25% losses), then go ahead and bump it up to CR 4. You could even award retroactive xp if you want.

[johnbragg]

If you want to know? Always. Use CR before the fight to estimate how tough it's going to be.

My world works by rule of willpower. Your hitpoints and abilities are the physical expression of what a total badass you are. So when you consider how much XP a fight was worth, consider--when your PC tells the story, how incredibly cool does he sound?

For first level characters, that time they faced down 4x their numbers in goblins--whoa. Hard encounter, 200 xp each.

For third level characters, facing down 4x their numbers in goblins--actually doesn't sound as cool as what happened last week when you fought the ogre. Goblins: Easy encounter. 150 xp each. Ogre: Average encounter, 300 xp each.

Next time you're at the tavern and you tell the story of the fire-infused half-fiendish flying ogre--jaws drop. HArd encounter, 600 xp each.

So yeah, if the party comes within a healing potion of a TPK, double XP if you ask me.

[Psyren]

What the others have said. And remember, a monster's challenge rating depends on a number of assumptions - what the party looks like, where the monster is found (environment/terrain/etc), the circumstances of them running into each other, the monster's listed behavior/tactics/outlook etc. Even if the designers didn't just flub the CR number entirely, it's impossible for us as end users to know everything they were thinking when they assigned it, so any assumptions we make that differ from theirs are adjustments to the Encounter Level of this monster.

[Zaq]

It's basically always fine to eyeball/fiat CR, with one notable exception: if you have a Truenamer in the party, you need to come to an understanding with them about how their Truespeak DCs (which are based on CR) will be determined. It's not going to be fair to them to have their target DCs change midbattle.

Other than that, though? Eyeball away. CR means vanishingly little in 3.5. A DM who knows their party will be a far better judge of CR than the book could ever be.

[Jormengand]

Bear in mind there can and will exist APL 3 parties who trounce That Damned Crab in the surprise round and must be forcibly kept awake when a runehound appears, and other APL 3 parties that are severely endangered by two wolves and will be utterly obliterated by a 3rd level half-elf truenamer (here's looking at ya, Khetarin-6-levels-ago). It's absolutely okay to change CRs to match the party's competence, especially when there are weird things like Bestiary of Krynn's proto-creature template which can actually lower your CR and make you pretty much strictly more powerful at the same time (if it eats one of your SLAs you weren't using, it starts to decrease your CR, rather than increasing it).

"This thing nearly TPK'd us" sounds like the definition of an EL=APL+4 encounter. So if that really is what happened, it should be about CR 7.

[Jack_Simth]

Side question: would the Travel Domain have helped free my cleric? Does the spittle count as a "magical effect"? Vile Spew is Ex, so no, it's not a magical effect in terms of game rules.

[ganondorf50]

Short answer
CR is adjustable and can be quite BS there are many examples of under CRed creatures in the MM 3

Long Answer

What I do is I personally use milesstones for leveling up, I cannot stand the XP system, its not useful if you want to keep them a certain level for awhile for them to grow and have fun. I find that the leveling system can go way too fast if you let it and suddenly you have many a player who is level 20 and destroying monsters. What you do is you change up encounters to make it either harder or easier. The CR system is a measurement system. It works if you have a balanced party IE wizard Cleric, Rogue, Fighter, PAladin. But it won't work if you have a High Minmaxed party or a group of 5 fighters. It needs to be balanced, but that is a fix the DM can make. It is your choice to change stuff you are the DM and you can do what you want.

[Thurbane]

Vile Spew is Ex, so no, it's not a magical effect in terms of game rules.

Thought so.

Never though of using fire to burn it.

We had no silver weapons, and we only picked up the Wand of CLW after the encounter. We had no healing other than the Cleric's spells.

The Goblin Scout is a little sub-par on damage output, at least until his Skirmish gets to respectable levels.

We're 7 sessions in, so our magic item haul is pretty low: a couple of very minor items picked up the Dark and Stormy Knight web adventure; some +1 Flaming arrows, 4x potions of CLW, 1x unknown potion, and a suit of +1 Studded Leather. Plus the Wand of CLW we just purchased in town.

The DM has been handing out loot as listed in the adventures (Dark and Stormy Knight, into Barrow of the Forgotten King).

NO SPOILERS ON THE BotFK MODULE PLEASE! :smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

Might want to take stock of items vs WBL if you've been running on module content the whole time. Never know when they've hidden the bulk of the loot behind a search check you didn't think to make and you missed it entirely. With a title like "Barrow" I'd expect they'd put most of the loot in a treasure room at the end rather than letting you acquire it as you go making it quite difficult to get anything you didn't start with, and again if it's hidden and you miss it then welp. The party should have a combined 10,000gp in stuffs at 3rd so that haul looks rather anemic. The +1 flaming arrows and unidentified potion are most assuredly taking up a completely disproportionate value, at 160gp per arrow and 750gp for a 3rd level potion (it's usually Fly, it's always Fly). They also don't always take into account that the loot the module drops is probably not what you actually want so it's only worth 1/2. Basically every couple of levels I do an audit and make sure everyone's caught up on loot so I can drop more if needed.

Assuming the party has recognized that DR was a factor, I'd suggest gearing up with both silver and cold iron for everyone (I do at character creation but now you've got an in-game reason to be paranoid). Could also look into say, Universal Solvent (only 50gp each) as a catch-all solution against further Runehounds, or Webs, or anything else sticky.

[Thurbane]

Assuming the party has recognized that DR was a factor, I'd suggest gearing up with both silver and cold iron for everyone (I do at character creation but now you've got an in-game reason to be paranoid). Could also look into say, Universal Solvent (only 50gp each) as a catch-all solution against further Runehounds, or Webs, or anything else sticky.

Sounds like a plan.

We need to stock up on whatever gear that doesn't exceed the GP limit of the small village the adventure is set in.

The Cleric has been memorizing Magic Weapon to help with DR.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sounds like a plan.

We need to stock up on whatever gear that doesn't exceed the GP limit of the small village the adventure is set in.

The Cleric has been memorizing Magic Weapon to help with DR.

If there's no time pressure, you could look at going to a larger settlement and return with better kit.

[Thurbane]

So...latest session didn't go so well.

We ended up fighting a Hobgoblin Cleric 4 (maybe 5), a Minotaur Skeleton, and 4x Human Warrior Skeletons. I'd guess this was an EL7 fight, against 4 level 3 PCs.

Our Dwarf Barbarian got killed by damage from the Minotaur Skeleton and the Cleric. The Binder failed a save against a Cause fear and fled the battle for 4 rounds - by the time he came back, the battle was almost over. The Scout's damage output is pretty low, especially against Undead. The Cleric used up most of his spells trying to keep the Dwarf alive, after Sound Burst and Shield of Faith were used up. He managed to destroy the lesser Skeletons, but couldn't turn the Minotaur.

The DM felt pretty bad about it - her first go at DMing, and first time she killed a PC.

I think it's a combo of the party composition, the DM rolling a LOT of high attack rolls and crits, us rolling poorly, and the module being a bit of a meat grinder, with assumed access to loot and treasure that we have not got.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think it's a combo of the party composition, the DM rolling a LOT of high attack rolls and crits, us rolling poorly, and the module being a bit of a meat grinder, with assumed access to loot and treasure that we have not got.

Any one of those could've done it alone.

Could've probably gone a bit better if the cleric opened with turning instead of doing it later in the fight.

[HammeredWharf]

Among other things, it sounds like you have a no crowd control and poor classes for fighting undead. It also sounds like the cleric player is playing it like the typical RPG healer, which the 3.5 cleric is not. For one, he should stop using Sound Burst. In case your DM missed it, undead are immune to its secondary effects, and it's generally not a particularly good spell anyway. If he wants do deal some damage he could, for example, use Spiritual Weapon.

However, keep in mind that among other things, the DM is fully capable of adjusting the difficulty of the campaign itself If it feels like your party is too weak for the adventure, she could give you more loot or fewer enemies to fight. I'd recommend the former, as you seem to be below WBL. Wealth is extremely important in 3.5e.

[Thurbane]

I probably didn't describe the sequence of events very well.

Due to the layout of the room, two of us came up one corridor (Binder and Scout), and two up the other (Cleric and Barbarian).

Barbarian closed for melee immediately with the Minotaur skeleton.
Cleric turned and destroyed all the Human Skeletons.
Binder used a 3d6 lightning strike (Focalor) on the Minotaur skeleton (he couldn't get line of sight to the enemy cleric).
Scout moved into position and attempted to skirmish the cleric with a bow shot.
---
Minotaur and Barbarian continue to slug it out.
Enemy cleric casts cause fear on Binder, who flees for 4 rounds after failing a save.
Scout continues trying to shoot enemy cleric, but Minotaur is providing cover.
Our Cleric (played by me) attempts another turn, unsuccessfully.
Enemy cleric cast some kind of offensive spell defensively; but failed the roll and fizzled.
---
After figuring out he was going to need a 19 or 20 to turn the Minotaur, our cleric casts Sound Burst to catch the enemy cleric and the Minotaur. He knew the Skeleton was immune to stun, but couldn't get in to melee anyone due to room layout.
---
More melee and healing until Barbarian drops.
---
Binder comes back, takes down enemy cleric with another lighting strike.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I probably didn't describe the sequence of events very well.

Due to the layout of the room, two of us came up one corridor (Binder and Scout), and two up the other (Cleric and Barbarian).

Barbarian closed for melee immediately with the Minotaur skeleton.
Cleric turned and destroyed all the Human Skeletons.
Binder used a 3d6 lightning strike (Focalor) on the Minotaur skeleton (he couldn't get line of sight to the enemy cleric).
Scout moved into position and attempted to skirmish the cleric with a bow shot.
---
Minotaur and Barbarian continue to slug it out.
Enemy cleric casts cause fear on Binder, who flees for 4 rounds after failing a save.
Scout continues trying to shoot enemy cleric, but Minotaur is providing cover.
Our Cleric (played by me) attempts another turn, unsuccessfully.
Enemy cleric cast some kind of offensive spell defensively; but failed the roll and fizzled.
---
After figuring out he was going to need a 19 or 20 to turn the Minotaur, our cleric casts Sound Burst to catch the enemy cleric and the Minotaur. He knew the Skeleton was immune to stun, but couldn't get in to melee anyone due to room layout.
---
More melee and healing until Barbarian drops.
---
Binder comes back, takes down enemy cleric with another lighting strike.

Wait, you won? I thought it was a TPK.

Then that went, if not swimmingly, not significantly different than expected. It was a boss fight. It's normal for characters to be slain during boss fights unless they're lucky or just that damn good. As long as the DM awards XP to the barbarian after being raised, I no longer see the problem.

For clarity's sake, no one else died?

[Thurbane]

Wait, you won? I thought it was a TPK.

Then that went, if not swimmingly, not significantly different than expected. It was a boss fight. It's normal for characters to be slain during boss fights unless they're lucky or just that damn good. As long as the DM awards XP to the barbarian after being raised, I no longer see the problem.

For clarity's sake, no one else died?

No, only the barbarian.

Raise is not a viable option, with no cleric of sufficient level.

We can't really go cross-country to a larger town looking for one without pretty much abandoning the adventure, which is fairly time sensitive.

I'm going to have a word with the DM to may let us find a scroll of Raise Dead or Reincarnate as treasure, and have a wandering caster able to use it for us.

The Barbarian's player is happy to roll up a new beatstick if we can't bring him back.

For the sake of transparency, I play the Binder and Cleric, and the only other player runs the Scout and Barbarian.

The DM is my fiance, in her first serious attempt at DMing. She's using a pre-written module, but indicated that in future she would rather run her own sandbox game. She's feels very bad about any PC death.

I guess the Scout is kind of bugging me with his inability to contribute much in combat - the player went for flavour over power (he was offered to use a Whisper Gnome as race rather than Goblin, but declined).

I suppose, all in all, one death by 3rd level when playing a pregen module isn't to be unexpected...

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, only the barbarian.

Raise is not a viable option, with no cleric of sufficient level.

We can't really go cross-country to a larger town looking for one without pretty much abandoning the adventure, which is fairly time sensitive.

I'm going to have a word with the DM to may let us find a scroll of Raise Dead or Reincarnate as treasure, and have a wandering caster able to use it for us.

The Barbarian's player is happy to roll up a new beatstick if we can't bring him back.

For the sake of transparency, I play the Binder and Cleric, and the only other player runs the Scout and Barbarian.

The DM is my fiance, in her first serious attempt at DMing. She's using a pre-written module, but indicated that in future she would rather run her own sandbox game. She's feels very bad about any PC death.

I guess the Scout is kind of bugging me with his inability to contribute much in combat - the player went for flavour over power (he was offered to use a Whisper Gnome as race rather than Goblin, but declined).

I suppose, all in all, one death by 3rd level when playing a pregen module isn't to be unexpected...

If you can get a scroll, your own cleric will be able to activate it with a trivial CL check.

But yeah, low level play tends to be a bit deadlier anyway and boss fights even moreso. That you only lost one is actually on par with the projections for such fights described in the DMG. Your DM has nothing to feel bad about and neither do either of the players.

It may not be the -desired- outcome but it's an almost a picture perfect instance of the expected outcome.

Frankly, I'm getting more and more inclined to say 'good job' all around your table.