How tough are the following creatures?

[supergoji18]

I've been rummaging through the Monster Manual, Rise of Tiamat and Out of the Abyss stats for some of the higher level monsters, and I was wondering how tough some of these creatures are in your experiences?

- Ancient Dragons (any/all types)
- Balors
- Krakens
- Liches
- Pit Fiends
- Princes of Elemental Evil (all of them)
- The Tarrasque
- Tiamat
- The Demon Lords (all of them)

Each of these creatures are rated at a minimum of CR 20, with two of them claiming the coveted title of CR 30, the highest in the edition. This means that these creatures should be a significant challenge even for a party of 3-5 level 20 characters. However, after browsing the forum and other websites, I notice that a common complaint is that at higher levels challenge rating begins to mean less and less, and encounters that should be a 50/50 are instead either trivialized by the time level 17 rolls ("I wish the dragon dead!") or become much more difficult than they should be because of RNG and other unaccounted for difficulties ("Lich casts Power Word Kill, you die, no save.")

Now obviously the difficulty of these creatures would depend a lot on party composition, environmental factors, prior damage taken/resources expended, and other such things. In order to minimize this, I'm going to set a few guidelines for judging these creatures difficulty.
- Party of 5 level 20 adventurers vs 1 of these creatures at a time, no assistance from outside sources for either side except for those that their abilities give them the power to use (ex: Zuggtmoy's summon fungi ability, or a cleric's).
- All combatants are at full health and have not expended any of their abilities or resources available to them.
- The environment will be a 1000 ft. x 1000 ft. x 1000 ft. room, well lit all throughout, proper ventilation, and is completely featureless.
- The party consists of: 1 Variant Human Wizard (Abjuration school), 1 Half Orc Fighter (Battlemaster), 1 Half Elf Rogue (Assassin), 1 Dwarf Cleric (War Domain), and 1 Dragonborn Paladin (Oath of Vengeance). I feel this is pretty basic for a party of 5.
- They each have 1 legendary magic item, 1 very rare magic item, and 1 rare magic item.

How would these guys fair against each of the above listed creatures? What are your personal experiences with combatting or running these monsters in your games?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Neat thread. I'm curious about people's thoughts on these guys, though based on previous experience at lower levels I think most of these guys may get nova'd down by a full party of level 20 PCs, simply due to action economy, Legendary actions not withstanding.

Also, for my personal curiosity (Currently running PotA), I'd like to know what people think of the 4 Princes of Elemental Evil: Imix (CR 19), Ogremoch (20), Olhydra (18) and Yan-C-Bin (18).

[Foxhound438]

Well, I'll start off by saying that Balors are only CR 19....

However, as a rule of thumb a well-built PC can 1v1 a creature of CR equal to their level with around a 50/50 success chance, and in some cases do so more consistently (think paladin vs. pit fiend, the paladin has a lot of things that are basically scalpol abilities, such as prot e+g giving the fiend disadvantage on attacks). CR 20 is something a level 20 party should be able to defeat expending about 15-20% of their daily resources. Unfortunately not all CR 20's are equal, and most of them require significantly less. I don't know about the other things, I havn't had a chance to fully analyze them, but you should generally be able to come out on top of any of those with a level 20 party, especially if you aren't fighting additional things at the same time.

[Foxhound438]

- The party consists of: 1 Variant Human Wizard (Abjuration school), 1 Half Orc Fighter (Battlemaster), 1 Half Elf Rogue (Assassin), 1 Dwarf Cleric (War Domain), and 1 Dragonborn Paladin (Oath of Vengeance). I feel this is pretty basic for a party of 5.


oh, and first mistake for that party: not taking oath of ancients. capstone for them is straight busted. you go to 0 and are unconscious, at the start of your turn you gain 10 hp (yes, the ability doesn't end if you're unconcious), you bonus action death ward, action lay on hands to gain 100 hp.

[supergoji18]

Well, I'll start off by saying that Balors are only CR 19....

However, as a rule of thumb a well-built PC can 1v1 a creature of CR equal to their level with around a 50/50 success chance, and in some cases do so more consistently (think paladin vs. pit fiend, the paladin has a lot of things that are basically scalpol abilities, such as prot e+g giving the fiend disadvantage on attacks). CR 20 is something a level 20 party should be able to defeat expending about 15-20% of their daily resources. Unfortunately not all CR 20's are equal, and most of them require significantly less. I don't know about the other things, I havn't had a chance to fully analyze them, but you should generally be able to come out on top of any of those with a level 20 party, especially if you aren't fighting additional things at the same time.

I thought it was supposed to be that a party of characters at a level equal to the CR should have a 50/50 chance, not a 1 on 1. If that's the case, no wonder CR is so busted at higher levels.

[supergoji18]

Neat thread. I'm curious about people's thoughts on these guys, though based on previous experience at lower levels I think most of these guys may get nova'd down by a full party of level 20 PCs, simply due to action economy, Legendary actions not withstanding.

Also, for my personal curiosity (Currently running PotA), I'd like to know what people think of the 4 Princes of Elemental Evil: Imix (CR 19), Ogremoch (20), Olhydra (18) and Yan-C-Bin (18).

I didn't include them because I don't have the Princes of the Apocalypse book, but I can add them to the thread if you want.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Well, I’m going to respond to my own post, because why not.

Yan-C-Bin Prince of Air

Strengths: Highly mobile with 150’ fly speed and can teleport off-turn. Difficult to engage as it is flying and no other creatures may fly while fighting it and can turn the whole battlefield into difficult terrain. Has legendary saves and advantage on saves vs magic. Has a lot of damage resistances and immunities. Great at handing out disadvantage with blinding and deafening effects. Can use a save-or-die effect once every round on top of it’s normal turn. Strong AoEs with booming thunder and at-will lightning bolt, so don’t clump up.

Weaknesses: Not so great HP for an enemy at this level. Has few expendable resources. Surprisingly, doesn’t have any features to block or deflect projectile attacks. A DM might rule that the extreme winds creates disadvantage on ranged attacks, but there’s nothing explicit in the stat block.

Olhydra Princess of Water

Strengths: Lots of resistances and immunities. Has legendary saves and advantage on saves vs magic. Great at grappling and knocking prone. Can turn to acid, punishing anyone who tries to engage in melee. If fighting anywhere near water, can engage in hit-and-run tactics and hide in opaque water.
Overall, seems designed to kidnap a portion of the party and then to hide and murder them piecemeal.

Weaknesses: Low AC, not so great HP.

Ogremoch Prince of Earth

Strengths: High HP. Has legendary saves and advantage on saves vs magic. Has some damage resistances. Extremely difficult to hide from, with unusual senses and other abilities. Has a burrough speed. Tricky to engage up close or from the ground, as it creates a lot of hazardous terrain and save-or-trip effects.
May create many summons, but at the cost of HP.

Weaknesses: Lacks magical attacks and AoE damage. Low AC for a creature of this level. Mostly ineffectual against a flying party, but can hide underground to compensate.

Imix Prince of Fire

Strengths: Constantly damages nearby creatures. Destroys any non-magical weapon that hits it. Very strong magical attacks. Strong AoE damage. Lots of resistances and immunities. Has legendary saves and advantage on saves vs magic. Mobile, with a flying speed and a teleport. Puts out high damage. Can destroy potions. Can apply Exhaustion (on a not-so-bad save) to the entire party each round.

Weaknesses: Low AC, not so great HP. Most of it’s damage is of a single type: Fire. Can’t really hide as it self-illuminates.


Edit: Vs the theoretical party, all of them should be winnable fights. Personally I believe Yan-C-Bin might be the most difficult, being only vulnerable to ranged attacks which count as magical. Imix might be quite difficult if the party is not prepared, but so long as they find sources of fire resistance would be a cake-walk.

Edit 2: Continuing on in the same manner, but I have to get back to work, so the rest will need to wait.

Ancient Dragons

Strengths: Dragons target multiple saves. Frightful Presence puts people out of the fight right at the start when it matters most. Breath attacks and Wind Attack puts out AoE damage. AC is decent enough. Some colors have high HP. Mobile, with fly, swim and burrow speeds. Legendary resistance

Weaknesses: A little foreknowledge goes a long way in preparing to fight a dragon. Some colors have not-so-great HP

Balor

Strengths: Lots of damage resistances and immunities. 4 proficient saves and advantage to save vs magic. Has a fly speed and a grapple attack so is difficult to keep away from it, and the Fire Aura punishes those who stay close.

Weaknesses: AC and HP are low for this level of creature.

Kraken

Strengths: High HP. Many damage immunities. Proficient in all saves. Induces vulnerability to it’s own attacks. Can swallow PCs that it grapples, and grapples as part of its attacks. Some AoE. Can’t hide from it due to truesight. Cannot be restrained.

Weaknesses: Low AC.

[supergoji18]

Well, I’m going to respond to my own post, because why not.

Ancient Dragons

Strengths: Dragons target multiple saves. Frightful Presence puts people out of the fight right at the start when it matters most. Breath attacks and Wind Attack puts out AoE damage. AC is decent enough. Some colors have high HP. Mobile, with fly, swim and burrow speeds. Legendary resistance

Weaknesses: A little foreknowledge goes a long way in preparing to fight a dragon. Some colors have not-so-great HP

Balor

Strengths: Lots of damage resistances and immunities. 4 proficient saves and advantage to save vs magic. Has a fly speed and a grapple attack so is difficult to keep away from it, and the Fire Aura punishes those who stay close.

Weaknesses: AC and HP are low for this level of creature.

TBH, dragons don't get much outside of legendary resistance, one immunity, and legendary actions. They lost a lot in 5e compared to older editions. I'd dare to say they really aren't that strong anymore, certainly not CR 20+ with the current stats.

I believe someone actually took a loot at the Balor based on the DMG guidelines for creating monsters, and found that it was understated for a CR 19 creature.

[Foxhound438]

I believe someone actually took a loot at the Balor based on the DMG guidelines for creating monsters, and found that it was understated for a CR 19 creature.

CR for published creatures is largely based on playtesting; the death explosion could take non-metagamers for surprise and knock out their healer, for example. I haven't seen the analysis you're talking about, but did they take into account that the fire aura can hit everyone if they're all close? did they take into account the fire aura dealing damage back every time it gets hit?

[supergoji18]

CR for published creatures is largely based on playtesting; the death explosion could take non-metagamers for surprise and knock out their healer, for example. I haven't seen the analysis you're talking about, but did they take into account that the fire aura can hit everyone if they're all close? did they take into account the fire aura dealing damage back every time it gets hit?

I believe they accounted for the Balor's Fire Aura always being active, but not too sure about it activating every time it gets hit.

[MrStabby]

Some of this is hard to judge - Kraken in water (at least vs a party not expecting to fight one) is much tougher than on land for example.

One thing I think CR really misses out on is the ability to focus down on a PC to take them out of the fight. A breath weapon attack that hurts everyone is mean but that same damage that takes a crucial party member out of the fight is brutal.

[Aldarin]

Depends on your group. In my experience, Tiamat is the hardest enemy I've ever faced, followed by Ancient Red Dragon and a lich in its lair. The tarrasque is easy enough if you have a barbarian and a primary sportscaster.

[RickAllison]

I've been rummaging through the Monster Manual, Rise of Tiamat and Out of the Abyss stats for some of the higher level monsters, and I was wondering how tough some of these creatures are in your experiences?

- Ancient Dragons (any/all types)
- Balors
- Krakens
- Liches
- Pit Fiends
- Princes of Elemental Evil (all of them)
- The Tarrasque
- Tiamat
- The Demon Lords (all of them)


Well, I'll try to keep this relatively succinct and I won't yet analyze it in terms of the party you set but rather in more general terms.

Ancient dragons:
Hoo boy. These guys are interesting because they are effectively the opposites of PCs. In terms of CR, PCs are high-offensive, low-defensive (at least in terms of HP, they catch up a little in AC) while dragons have low offensive CR and amazing defensive CR. Health, armor, these guys are stacked. But then we look down at offense: its melee damage dice are more along the lines of Large creatures, not Gargantuan. They make up for it on the breath weapon, but it just seems odd how little damage they really do.

Here is the kicker though: these guys aren't statted to take on a straight fight like this. These guys are survivors. They are among the fastest creatures in the MM, they have a mass debuff in Frightening Presence, and the Wing Attack legendary action gives them a way to shake off attackers that would otherwise be keeping pace with him (Trying to fly with him? Now you are plummeting to the ground because you were proned). Between blindsight, sky-high Perception, and a legendary action to use Perception, it becomes obvious that these bad boys were kitted out to be survivors, nefarious enemies who are cunning enough to flee when the odds look against them. They do not stack up well in this competition because they are better suited to the role of a recurring villain.

Balors:
These guys are awesome, but also might not be suited to the kind of battle we are discussing here. Like the lower-CR Marilith, these demons are fantastic at hit-and-run tactics. Forcing up to 25 feet of movement with the Whip attack is great at grabbing your friendly neighborhood wizard, especially if it is from the air. The caster then gets the wonderful feeling of taking a grand total of 7d6+8 damage and is knocked prone upon landing (unless he blows a slot on Feather Fall). Much like the dragons, these guys don't fare as well in a straight match. Good damage, but not enough to keep the party on the defensive with burst capabilities. Again, these guys are survivors leveraging 80 ft flight with a 120 ft teleport to prevent the party from ever activating his Death Throes. With minions, however... but that's outside this discussion.

Kraken:
Completely screwed in the set fight. Let's be real here, this is a sea monster; it's not going to be as powerful on land as it is in the water. On land, all you have to do is have ranged capability out to 150 feet. With some cantrips or magic bows, the players can kite it around all day.

In water? Much more difficult. Ink Cloud ensures that trying to out-distance it is an exercise in futility. 60 ft of movement ensures that anyone that wants to move around him will have to base the build around that (water genasi, etc.) or blow a magic item on that alone. Basically, the kraken either becomes pathetic or terrifying for its CR depending on its environment.

Pit Fiends:
Well, this escalated quickly. Pit Fiends are very good at control. 60 fly speed for evasion, Bite to ensure that whoever you are trying to kill can't heal (spread the love, too!), then three attacks that have a reach of 10 ft to avoid OAs. I think I will actually cover this with your party.

Start with a full-on beatdown on the wizard for an average 120 damage. If he doesn't have at least 14 Con, he has a good chance of being knocked out after this barrage. Honestly, if his Con isn't at least 12, he has a good chance to die in the first round (first three attacks down him, fourth inflicts double failures, poison finishes him off before his death saving throw roll).

The demon's next move is dependent on relative positions of the party and what are their primary methods of dispatching enemies. The fighter is first on the chopping block, followed by the rogue if he has ranged capabilities. If either are apart from the party, they will be attacked. If the party is bunched up, the pit fiend will create a Wall of Fire around himself and fly in the top 10 feet. At that point, the party is faced with a choice: enter the fire and potentially take significant damage but be able to attack, or hang back and avoid fire. If they enter, pit fiend quadruple smashes; if they don't and spread out, he quadruple smashes lonely targets; if they bunch together, he Fireballs.

Do I think the pit fiend can actually beat them? It depends. Bother fighter and paladin are melee heavy, which could mean the fiend can pick them off at leisure, the assassin archetype does little if the rogue can't get surprise, and the wizard can be taken out relatively early. The troublemaker could be the cleric. Maybe not the strongest, but its power comes from the fact that it is very effective at dispatching individual enemies. Pretty dangerous for being on the low-end of the pool.

[busterswd]

Re: Demon Lords

Really depends on your party and which Demon Lord. Demogorgon in particular is no joke; he just about ignores AC, can lock down 2 players during combat, and does perma damage, so when you hit 0 HP, you're dead. Jubilex was kind of disappointingly easy if your party figures out the fire/radiant gimmick (or has a paladin). If Grazzt gets a good charm off, he can get nasty, especially if the player can't make the saving throw; his teleport can also make him a nightmare for squishies.

That being said, my party wasn't max level (highest player was 16, most were 14ish), and while they were reasonably optimized, they weren't as coordinated/min-maxed as they could be.

[supergoji18]

Looking at the Ancient Red Dragon and comparing it to the guide for building monsters in the DM's guide, it looks to be understated for their challenge rating. Their defensive CR according to the DM's guide CR 30, but their offensive CR sits at a pathetic 15, 16 if we include the fire breath which only comes up every 1 in 3 rounds. Averaging out the CRs, we get a challenge rating of 22.5 to 23 for the Ancient Red Dragon. Powerful, yes, but worthy of its current CR? No.

Obviously there are some other things that can come into play on the dragon's side, like being able to fly as RickAllison mentioned, as well as legendary actions and maybe lair actions, but at the same time there are plenty of things that can come up with the opponent as well (true polymorph, barbarian rage, etc.) that it sort of offsets the abilities of the dragon. Plus, the range on its breath weapon isnt such that it can safely stay out of harm's reach (Eldritch Blast still hits it at that range, as do any bows).

[Aldarin]

Something to add: Contagion (flesh rot effect) Makes a monster vulnerable to everything. Save it for something after its used its Legendary Resistance. Amazing

[supergoji18]

Something to add: Contagion (flesh rot effect) Makes a monster vulnerable to everything. Save it for something after its used its Legendary Resistance. Amazing

and that is why CR starts to break down at a certain point.

Well I finally got Princes of the Apocalypse, and now I can give a proper look at the elemental princes.

Imix is flavorful as far as his traits actions and spells go, but mechanically he is an absolute mess. The threat of a fiery end to the world is sort of diminished when you realize that an Iron Golem actually wins almost 100% of the time against it. In fact, a single level 19 or 20 bard, wizard, or warlock with True Polymorph can just true polymorph into either a Balor or a Pit Fiend and auto-win against it.

Ogremoch is quite dangerous, with a fantastic defensive CR and a decent offensive CR, as well as a variety of ways to summon additional assistance in combat. The given team can take it down, but I think it provides one of the more difficult challenges.

Olhydra has a unique combat style that seems to center on grappling everything it can and killing them with lair actions. Still, she doesn't have very good HP or AC to be facing the given party (she'd probably be dead in 3 rounds). Then again, Storm of Vengeance makes her the only one of the three with access to a level 9 spell.

Yan-C-Bin is probably the most challenging of the four, despite what the CR would have you believe. He has some nice spells available, a fantastic flying speed, a huge armor class, and a bunch of cool abilities. He's also the only one with a lair action that can instantaneously kill one creature, and the DC is quite impressive. I'd say he'd probably last the longest and cause the most headaches.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Something to add: Contagion (flesh rot effect) Makes a monster vulnerable to everything. Save it for something after its used its Legendary Resistance. Amazing

Depending on your interpretation of Contagion, of course. One version is that they have to fail three saves in a row before the effects kick in, which is pretty terrible.

[supergoji18]

Depending on your interpretation of Contagion, of course. One version is that they have to fail three saves in a row before the effects kick in, which is pretty terrible.

I'm pretty sure it means that the disease kicks in immediately, and then they make three more saves to see if they can shrug it off or not.

Back on topic, something I'm noticing in 5e d&d is that it's very hard for the system to properly simulate higher level threats. When you lower the overall power level of everything in the system and start putting hard caps on some abilities, it gets hard to properly simulate the stronger creatures. Hence, CR starts to become less meaningful the higher it goes.

Another thing I've noticed is that CR becomes a very poor determination of difficulty once spellcasting and innate-spellcasting get involved. Take for instance the Lich. CR 21 seems appropriate, but that really depends on the spell selection of the particular Lich. A Lich with Power Word Kill is potentially dangerous, worthy of CR 21; a Lich who prepared Wish or True Polymorph instead can be a potential TPK, and deserves a much higher CR than given; that one Lich who decided to prepare Weird instead is going to trashed easily, and deserves a CR as low as his levels of judgement when deciding to pick that instead of something better.

[RickAllison]

I'm pretty sure it means that the disease kicks in immediately, and then they make three more saves to see if they can shrug it off or not.

Back on topic, something I'm noticing in 5e d&d is that it's very hard for the system to properly simulate higher level threats. When you lower the overall power level of everything in the system and start putting hard caps on some abilities, it gets hard to properly simulate the stronger creatures. Hence, CR starts to become less meaningful the higher it goes.

Another thing I've noticed is that CR becomes a very poor determination of difficulty once spellcasting and innate-spellcasting get involved. Take for instance the Lich. CR 21 seems appropriate, but that really depends on the spell selection of the particular Lich. A Lich with Power Word Kill is potentially dangerous, worthy of CR 21; a Lich who prepared Wish or True Polymorph instead can be a potential TPK, and deserves a much higher CR than given; that one Lich who decided to prepare Weird instead is going to trashed easily, and deserves a CR as low as his levels of judgement when deciding to pick that instead of something better.

RAW: Yes. RAI: No. Probably the biggest screw-up in the PHB because the intended function of the spell is radically different than the function in the book.

Yes.

As another example of how much the CR can vary, let him pre-cast a Bigby's Hand/Animate Objects/any other damaging effect that uses bonus actions. It provides a large boost to DPR with just one spell changed.

[supergoji18]

Back to the topic of the Balor, let's take a serious look at it.

The Balor has a defensive CR of a whopping... 13... unless we factor in the immunities hp multiplier which brings its defensive CR up to 18.
The offensive CR is a bit tricky because of the nature of its Fire Aura, which changes damage depending on how many creatures are within range to be hit by it. For the purpose of this calculation we will assume it has the paladin and fighter engaging in melee against it. So that means that fire aura does a total of 20 damage each round, on top of a total of 60 damage total if the fighter and the paladin both hit it all the time, for a total of 80. In addition, the Balor's multiattack lets it do 59 damage per round, for a grand total of 139 damage per round. Also factoring in the bonus to hit, this gives the balor an offensive CR of 22.

Average it out, using the non immunity CR, we get CR of 17.5. Using the other defensive CR, we get a CR of 20.

The more melee fighters there are in the party, the more dangerous the Balor becomes. It has the tools to punish any melee combatant all at its disposal, but a group of ranged attackers are going to have a much easier time against it.

[Demonic Spoon]

I thought it was supposed to be that a party of characters at a level equal to the CR should have a 50/50 chance, not a 1 on 1. If that's the case, no wonder CR is so busted at higher levels.

Not even close. If a single CR X creature as a 50% shot of beating a party of 3-5 players of level X, then every party would be dead by level 3.

CR in 5e is pretty much just an XP bucket (all monsters of the same CR are worth a given amount of XP), nothing more. Encounter balancing is done via XP.

[Gtdead]

I'm not familiar with all the monsters but
Balors and liches are subject to oneshots.

Balor has extremely weak dex saves. My Tempest/Sorc build with elemental adept can easily tear a whole through him. Call lightning targets it's weakest save, when cast from a lvl 9 spellslot with optimal conditions, it does 10d10 dmg, it can be maximized through CD, and it can be used twice the first round with quicken. If a contagion:flesh rot is in play then we are talking HUGE overkill although it's risky to go in melee against that thing.

With elemental adept the damage is about 60 per call down. There's a good chance that I can kill him in the second round if someone else doesn't finish him off.

I'm pretty sure that a Vengeance Paladin with action surge can destroy him as well, although he will spend all his spell slots.

Lich has extremely low defensive stats. Against lower levels if it loses initiative it should die like a fly because it doesn't have any reaction to stop it from happening other than shield, and it won't save him against a blessed and hasted 11 lvl fighter. Against high levels it also has no chances of avoiding a grapple. A cleric with antimagic field can grapple him and it's over, punch him till dead. Nothing he can do.

[JoeJ]

The MM tells us what spells the monster has. What spells does the party have? If they get to pick them after they know monster what they're fighting, that gives them another pretty huge advantage.

[supergoji18]

I'm not familiar with all the monsters but
Balors and liches are subject to oneshots.

Balor has extremely weak dex saves. My Tempest/Sorc build with elemental adept can easily tear a whole through him. Call lightning targets it's weakest save, when cast from a lvl 9 spellslot with optimal conditions, it does 10d10 dmg, it can be maximized through CD, and it can be used twice the first round with quicken. If a contagion:flesh rot is in play then we are talking HUGE overkill although it's risky to go in melee against that thing.

With elemental adept the damage is about 60 per call down. There's a good chance that I can kill him in the second round if someone else doesn't finish him off.

I'm pretty sure that a Vengeance Paladin with action surge can destroy him as well, although he will spend all his spell slots.

Lich has extremely low defensive stats. Against lower levels if it loses initiative it should die like a fly because it doesn't have any reaction to stop it from happening other than shield, and it won't save him against a blessed and hasted 11 lvl fighter. Against high levels it also has no chances of avoiding a grapple. A cleric with antimagic field can grapple him and it's over, punch him till dead. Nothing he can do.

Minor gripe of mine: quicken spell only allows 1 normal spell and 1 cantrip in one round, not two castings of a normal spell.

and to JoeJ, preparation isnt even necessary, though it obviously helps.

[R.Shackleford]

In all honesty, it isn't what you use but how you use it.

The Big T is an absolute joke. Unless you use it in such a way that leads the players into a no win situation. Stop the Big T and the princess dies OR save the princess and the Big T destroys the city (leave big T as a narrative problem).

Both have their pros and cons. If you save the princess the city is destroyed and the common folk hate you... But the king and queen love you.

If you save the city, the city is fine and people love you... But the king and queen hate you.

If you try to save the city but don't do it in time, the city may be destroyed and the princess dies... Now both the city and royalty hates you....

Don't use them as lumps of XP, lumps of XP are for chump monsters.

[RickAllison]

Minor gripe of mine: quicken spell only allows 1 normal spell and 1 cantrip in one round, not two castings of a normal spell.

and to JoeJ, preparation isnt even necessary, though it obviously helps.

His example, though, was Call Lightning. That is a spell that does damage on initial cast and you can use an action to damage with it for 10 minutes. What he was doing was Quick-casting the spell (dealing the damage) then activating the action ability of it for more damage.

[JoeJ]

and to JoeJ, preparation isnt even necessary, though it obviously helps.

Examples given of using things like Call Lightning and Antimagic Field only work if the party is able to cast those spells. Many spells are widely different in effectiveness against different monsters. Against the tarrasque, for example, Antimagic Field is useless and Magic Missile is actually worse than useless.

[supergoji18]

His example, though, was Call Lightning. That is a spell that does damage on initial cast and you can use an action to damage with it for 10 minutes. What he was doing was Quick-casting the spell (dealing the damage) then activating the action ability of it for more damage.
... i never realized that was possible. Oh the fun i shall now have :smallbiggrin:


Examples given of using things like Call Lightning and Antimagic Field only work if the party is able to cast those spells. Many spells are widely different in effectiveness against different monsters. Against the tarrasque, for example, Antimagic Field is useless and Magic Missile is actually worse than useless.

I'm just saying that generally PCs are so gosh-darn powerful they don't really need to worry too much about being unprepared for a fight.

[JoeJ]

I'm just saying that generally PCs are so gosh-darn powerful they don't really need to worry too much about being unprepared for a fight.

In a white room scenario they probably don't, but I thought the point of this thread was to compare the toughness of different monsters. Are we comparing them to a party that specifically prepared for that encounter, or against one with a standard selection of spells?

[supergoji18]

In a white room scenario they probably don't, but I thought the point of this thread was to compare the toughness of different monsters. Are we comparing them to a party that specifically prepared for that encounter, or against one with a standard selection of spells?

Standard selection for a combat situation. Assume the party knows combat is about to happen, but they don't know what exactly they're fighting.

[R.Shackleford]

Standard selection for a combat situation. Assume the party knows combat is about to happen, but they don't know what exactly they're fighting.

It doesn't hurt that most choices to fight X will help fighting Y.

And you typically have tons of options even after making choices.

The number of spells casters get can be all used to cast 1 spell or to cast each spell once.

It is really easy to be prepared for almost anything, especially when a group works together.