OP PCs

[Zethus]

How do you take PCs who happen to be very powerful? Do you think these have detrimental effects on the playgroup, challenge to encounters, etc?

I ask because one of the PCs in my campaign, before we even rolled stats, decided to be a Weretiger Pirate Monk for lolz or whatever before seeing what all those things do. He got pretty great stat rolls (18, 16, 15, 14, 10, 10) and I had said that Variants were OK before, so he ended up with a Dex of 20 (18+1+Athlete) and Wis/Str of 17 (16+1 and Weretiger bonus respectively) at level 1, immune to nonmagical, nonsilver attacks, etc. and he (and one other party member) took down an ogre with relative ease at level 2 (while the healer was busy with a dying ranger).

Do you allow characters like this in your campaigns?

[pwykersotz]

Only if other party members are boosted similarly. Yes, high power campaigns can be tons of fun, and you should expect to have to raise the bar with regards to CR if you allow those templates.

If it's just one of the characters though, that can be annoying.

[BiPolar]

How do you take PCs who happen to be very powerful? Do you think these have detrimental effects on the playgroup, challenge to encounters, etc?

I ask because one of the PCs in my campaign, before we even rolled stats, decided to be a Weretiger Pirate Monk for lolz or whatever before seeing what all those things do. He got pretty great stat rolls (18, 16, 15, 14, 10, 10) and I had said that Variants were OK before, so he ended up with a Dex of 20 (18+1+Athlete) and Wis/Str of 17 (16+1 and Weretiger bonus respectively) at level 1, immune to nonmagical, nonsilver attacks, etc. and he (and one other party member) took down an ogre with relative ease at level 2 (while the healer was busy with a dying ranger).

Do you allow characters like this in your campaigns?

Were other PCs given the option to chose non-standard species like Weretiger?

[Zethus]

Were other PCs given the option to chose non-standard species like Weretiger?

Yeah, of course. None of them wanted to, though.

[BiPolar]

Yeah, of course. None of them wanted to, though.

THat's tough. If everyone is cool with it I'd run with it, but you're going to have to prepare for having a weretiger :D Not necessarily a bad thing and it can introduce plot hooks, stories and encounters.

And if it's gets too bad...Remove Curse solves the problem at a third level spell. PC might be annoyed, but they did choose something that can be pretty easily removed.

I'm not really sure how to handle his stats, either. It says "its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form". However, that is based on Weretiger stats and not rolled stats for a PC plus any modifiers. I think if someone wanted the abilities of a weretiger, they wouldn't be able to roll their stats or get any modifiers from their original race.

I'm also unsure how to handle shapechanging. "Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed" SO if he turns into a tiger, then wouldn't all the equipment just drop?

There's a lot going in a weretiger that makes it hard to deal with as a PC race without giving it more than the MM says.

[Zethus]

THat's tough. If everyone is cool with it I'd run with it, but you're going to have to prepare for having a weretiger :D Not necessarily a bad thing and it can introduce plot hooks, stories and encounters.

And if it's gets too bad...Remove Curse solves the problem at a third level spell. PC might be annoyed, but they did choose something that can be pretty easily removed.

I'm not really sure how to handle his stats, either. It says "its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form". However, that is based on Weretiger stats and not rolled stats for a PC plus any modifiers. I think if someone wanted the abilities of a weretiger, they wouldn't be able to roll their stats or get any modifiers from their original race.

I'm also unsure how to handle shapechanging. "Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed" SO if he turns into a tiger, then wouldn't all the equipment just drop?

There's a lot going in a weretiger that makes it hard to deal with as a PC race without giving it more than the MM says.

Alright.

His lycanthropy can only be removed by Wish

I mean, he's still a human, he's just also a Weretiger. The only stat that changes from this is the Str which gets set at 17 for being a Weretiger. Other than that, he still retains HIS stats, not a Weretigers (or at least I'm 99% sure that's the case, since the Weretiger stats in the MM are for when it's in all forms)

Shapechanging doesn't remove equipment from the person (so as to not lose AC or weapons upon transforming into a Hybrid or Full form)

See #3. And anyway that'd be weird to count lycanthropy as a race. Just because you become a werewolf doesn't mean you're not human anymore. You can't change race, barring Wish or something.

[RickAllison]

THat's tough. If everyone is cool with it I'd run with it, but you're going to have to prepare for having a weretiger :D Not necessarily a bad thing and it can introduce plot hooks, stories and encounters.

And if it's gets too bad...Remove Curse solves the problem at a third level spell. PC might be annoyed, but they did choose something that can be pretty easily removed.

I'm not really sure how to handle his stats, either. It says "its statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form". However, that is based on Weretiger stats and not rolled stats for a PC plus any modifiers. I think if someone wanted the abilities of a weretiger, they wouldn't be able to roll their stats or get any modifiers from their original race.

I'm also unsure how to handle shapechanging. "Any equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed" SO if he turns into a tiger, then wouldn't all the equipment just drop?

There's a lot going in a weretiger that makes it hard to deal with as a PC race without giving it more than the MM says.

I'm currently playing as a wereraven for a campaign, and my solution was making a character for whom the bonuses are all but useless ;)

He wears medium armor, so he can't take advantage of flight or the Tiny form without shedding off all his armor, he started with higher than 15 Dex so he got no boost there, he primarily attacks with Green-Flame Blade on his horns (minotaur race) so the Multiattack does little for him, and his Charisma is awful and he lacks Deception proficiency so Mimicry is not very useful. The immunity to common weapon attacks still is a nice boost, though :smallbiggrin:

Since he does grappling (as a wizard), a much more optimal choice would probably have been werebear...

[DontEatRawHagis]

I had a player who was interested in Were characters. Lucky for me he contracted it through normal gameplay not during character creation, he switched out ranger builds as a new character.

Him: what do you meaning no longer a werewolf?
Me: well your previous character was a werewolf. This one didn't get bit.

Even still he was an OP PC so I would always have multiple battles going on. For instance, 3 entrances to the room where enemies would come through wave after wave.

And when there were boss encounters I would set up 2 bosses at once in seperate sides of the room. One for him to solo and one for the rest of the group.

[BiPolar]

Alright.

His lycanthropy can only be removed by Wish

I mean, he's still a human, he's just also a Weretiger. The only stat that changes from this is the Str which gets set at 17 for being a Weretiger. Other than that, he still retains HIS stats, not a Weretigers (or at least I'm 99% sure that's the case, since the Weretiger stats in the MM are for when it's in all forms)

Shapechanging doesn't remove equipment from the person (so as to not lose AC or weapons upon transforming into a Hybrid or Full form)

See #3. And anyway that'd be weird to count lycanthropy as a race. Just because you become a werewolf doesn't mean you're not human anymore. You can't change race, barring Wish or something.

Totally you're fiat to do all that, but now you're taking an already OP choice and increasing it's power. To make it more realistic...and MAYBE less OP:

1) Rolled stats are his stats in all forms - just as in the MM. Any bonuses recalculated based on his stats.
2) Polymorph rules still apply. Since he's a monk it's not a big deal (likely unarmored), but you're giving him a huge bonus here with the ability to change form and have new and special attacks. That's the upside. THe downside is he drops what he's holding when he's a tiger (tiger-human hybrid can retain what he's holding/wearing.)
3) He's a lycanthrope...if he walks into town or someone sees him as such they will respond and react accordingly.
4) How are you handling his monk abilities. I"d say that unless he's in full humanoid form, he doesn't get them (including Ki points). He has to make a choice. Monk or weretiger.
5) Have to figure out his ranged weapon. As a monk, he can't use a longbow. So he carries one for when he turns into a hybrid? Or just let him use a shortbow, crossbow, dart or sling.

Making only a wish spell remove lycanthropy makes sense here, but only if you limit his OP by making it a more realistic weretiger from a human monk as described above.

[Zethus]

Totally you're fiat to do all that, but now you're taking an already OP choice and increasing it's power. To make it more realistic...and MAYBE less OP:

1) Rolled stats are his stats in all forms - just as in the MM. Any bonuses recalculated based on his stats.
2) Polymorph rules still apply. Since he's a monk it's not a big deal (likely unarmored), but you're giving him a huge bonus here with the ability to change form and have new and special attacks. That's the upside. THe downside is he drops what he's holding when he's a tiger (tiger-human hybrid can retain what he's holding/wearing.)
3) He's a lycanthrope...if he walks into town or someone sees him as such they will respond and react accordingly.
4) How are you handling his monk abilities. I"d say that unless he's in full humanoid form, he doesn't get them (including Ki points). He has to make a choice. Monk or weretiger.
5) Have to figure out his ranged weapon. As a monk, he can't use a longbow. So he carries one for when he turns into a hybrid? Or just let him use a shortbow, crossbow, dart or sling.

Making only a wish spell remove lycanthropy makes sense here, but only if you limit his OP by making it a more realistic weretiger from a human monk as described above.

1) I'm still against that. He's still very much a human.

2) Since it takes an action to transform I say he just sheathes his weapons and the armor (which he doesn't wear anyway) just kinda stretches.

3) If they know he's a lycanthrope, yeah. If they only see him Human they'd be pretty chill I'd think.

4) He still has Ki, but he's no longer Unarmed (because Claws are Natural Weapons).

5) He just has some darts.

[Demonslayer666]

Challenging an unbalanced group can be very difficult when one member is a lot tougher. The other party members are going to end up making death saves while he finishes off the hoard.

If the other characters chose not to, they should get other bonuses to help balance out the party. Something like defensive magic items.

Villains might hear of this hero and start collecting and distributing silver weapons. :smallamused:

[BiPolar]

1) I'm still against that. He's still very much a human.

2) Since it takes an action to transform I say he just sheathes his weapons and the armor (which he doesn't wear anyway) just kinda stretches.

3) If they know he's a lycanthrope, yeah. If they only see him Human they'd be pretty chill I'd think.

4) He still has Ki, but he's no longer Unarmed (because Claws are Natural Weapons).

5) He just has some darts.


1)You're against using his rolled stats? I meant you take his rolled stats and use them for all forms. Don't use the stats in the MM.
2)Again, your call there. But you're worried about making him OP and then expanding on them to make him even more OP.
3)Totally agree :) Unless someone reads his mind. Or as he does more and more in the world he becomes known.
4)Same as (2). As a tiger-humanoid or tiger he isn't a human monk anymore. He's now fully in the weretiger form and shouldn't keep the bonuses of being a monk.
5)Cool.

[JackPhoenix]

How do you take PCs who happen to be very powerful? Do you think these have detrimental effects on the playgroup, challenge to encounters, etc?

I ask because one of the PCs in my campaign, before we even rolled stats, decided to be a Weretiger Pirate Monk for lolz or whatever before seeing what all those things do. He got pretty great stat rolls (18, 16, 15, 14, 10, 10) and I had said that Variants were OK before, so he ended up with a Dex of 20 (18+1+Athlete) and Wis/Str of 17 (16+1 and Weretiger bonus respectively) at level 1, immune to nonmagical, nonsilver attacks, etc. and he (and one other party member) took down an ogre with relative ease at level 2 (while the healer was busy with a dying ranger).

Do you allow characters like this in your campaigns?

Honestly, weretiger isn't an option for players, there's a reason why is in MM (DM-only book) and not PHB (the only book intended for players). If the DM decides to give it to players, sure, but players can't just randomly to choose to play one.

[DontEatRawHagis]

1) I'm still against that. He's still very much a human.

2) Since it takes an action to transform I say he just sheathes his weapons and the armor (which he doesn't wear anyway) just kinda stretches.

3) If they know he's a lycanthrope, yeah. If they only see him Human they'd be pretty chill I'd think.

4) He still has Ki, but he's no longer Unarmed (because Claws are Natural Weapons).

5) He just has some darts.

2) I will also go for clothes are destroyed when you transform. It makes for more interesting RP scenarios, such as a naked guy standing in the middle of a room full of dead bodies.

4) He shouldn't have class abilities when he turns into a Weretiger. Same way that a Druid cannot cast spells as a tiger unless they have that class ability that modifies wild shape to allow for it.

Also maybe he should be making CON checks to stay in form when he gets hit, unless its moon based or something.

[BiPolar]

2) I will also go for clothes are destroyed when you transform. It makes for more interesting RP scenarios, such as a naked guy standing in the middle of a room full of dead bodies.

4) He shouldn't have class abilities when he turns into a Weretiger. Same way that a Druid cannot cast spells as a tiger unless they have that class ability that modifies wild shape to allow for it.

Also maybe he should be making CON checks to stay in form when he gets hit, unless its moon based or something.

Love the idea of torn clothing, not just discarded. Definitely a fun RP aspect.

Not sure about the CON checks. It's not a polymorph spell, just a polymorph ability. But if he was looking to reduce the OP, that's an interesting idea.

[RickAllison]

2) I will also go for clothes are destroyed when you transform. It makes for more interesting RP scenarios, such as a naked guy standing in the middle of a room full of dead bodies.

4) He shouldn't have class abilities when he turns into a Weretiger. Same way that a Druid cannot cast spells as a tiger unless they have that class ability that modifies wild shape to allow for it.

Also maybe he should be making CON checks to stay in form when he gets hit, unless its moon based or something.

He keeps his same statistics when in his other forms. The difference between being a lycanthrope and being a Wild Shape druid is that the druid assumes the form whereas the weretiger just IS that form. Ruling as you do both goes against RAW and goes against the fluff.

As for the clothes, this actually occurred in the introductory scene for my wereraven. He had been called out on being in disguise by a pseudo-god, but he couldn't change back because he would then be a 7'8" minotaur standing with everything hanging in the wind...

[BiPolar]

He keeps his same statistics when in his other forms. The difference between being a lycanthrope and being a Wild Shape druid is that the druid assumes the form whereas the weretiger just IS that form. Ruling as you do both goes against RAW and goes against the fluff.

What do you mean? He's keeping his stats...just not his abilities. That seems RAW.

[RickAllison]

What do you mean? He's keeping his stats...just not his abilities. That seems RAW.

Statistics include everything. Page 6 of the MM:


A monster's statistics, sometimes referred to as its stat
block, provide the essential information that you need
to run the monster.

Under the Statistics super-heading, we have the following sub-headings: size, type, alignment, armor class, hit points, speed, ability scores, saving throws, skills, vulnerabilities/resistances/immunities, senses, languages, challenge, special traits (spellcasting, etc.), actions, reactions, and equipment.

So yes, statistics includes abilities. That is (not seems, is) RAW.

[BiPolar]

Statistics include everything. Page 6 of the MM:



Under the Statistics super-heading, we have the following sub-headings: size, type, alignment, armor class, hit points, speed, ability scores, saving throws, skills, vulnerabilities/resistances/immunities, senses, languages, challenge, special traits (spellcasting, etc.), actions, reactions, and equipment.

So yes, statistics includes abilities. That is (not seems, is) RAW.

I stand corrected! Yes, he should be able to use his monk abilities which would be part of his stat block. And I would include his unarmed strikes abilities for bite/claw.

but even more important to make things more difficult per my other suggestions:)

[RickAllison]

I stand corrected! Yes, he should be able to use his monk abilities which would be part of his stat block. And I would include his unarmed strikes abilities for bite/claw.

That doesn't quite work out. Claws and bites are not monk weapons. However, there is nothing stopping him from just making unarmed strikes! Those are not just restricted to fists or other hand movements. It includes headbutts, knees, kicks, basically a strike from anywhere on the body that isn't a weapon on its own. Of course, it wouldn't exactly break the game (more than it already does) to let him use it with his claw weapons. The only thing it enables is Pounce, really.

[BiPolar]

That doesn't quite work out. Claws and bites are not monk weapons. However, there is nothing stopping him from just making unarmed strikes! Those are not just restricted to fists or other hand movements. It includes headbutts, knees, kicks, basically a strike from anywhere on the body that isn't a weapon on its own. Of course, it wouldn't exactly break the game (more than it already does) to let him use it with his claw weapons. The only thing it enables is Pounce, really.

But the animal is unarmed. It is armed with claws and teeth in the same way a human is armed with fists and teeth. Just better :) At least, that's how I'd rule it. He's not holding a non-monk weapon and just using his unarmed self.

[supergoji18]

Why in Ao's name would you allow any character to start out with IMMUNITY to non-magical, non-silvered damage? They're going to be untouchable for at least 5 levels, maybe even 10. Unless you start ruling that everything now does magical damage, which is probably going to make things a bit unrealistic ("This goblin has a +1 magic shortsword, as do the other 20 in their tribe. How they haven't gone on to take over the nearby village with this power is beyond me.")

[Zethus]

But the animal is unarmed. It is armed with claws and teeth in the same way a human is armed with fists and teeth. Just better :) At least, that's how I'd rule it. He's not holding a non-monk weapon and just using his unarmed self.

Claws count as Natural Weapons, which are most definitely not not weapons.


Honestly, weretiger isn't an option for players, there's a reason why is in MM (DM-only book) and not PHB (the only book intended for players). If the DM decides to give it to players, sure, but players can't just randomly to choose to play one.

First of all, it is. It straight up has things in the MM SPECIFICALLY FOR PCs, such as PC Lycanthrope rules. Also, there is a reason int the character's lore. It's actually pretty interesting.

[JNAProductions]

And it also notes that the DM is free to take control of the character until it's cured. Because it is pretty OP.

[GlenSmash!]

The game makes a distinction between unarmed strikes and natural weapon attacks. Similar to how the game treats Extra attack and Multi-Attack differently. Every one is free to run their table however they want, but RAW and RAI they are meant to be different things.

[Demonic Spoon]

First of all, it is. It straight up has things in the MM SPECIFICALLY FOR PCs, such as PC Lycanthrope rules. Also, there is a reason int the character's lore. It's actually pretty interesting.

It does not state that lycanthropy is a player option, just that lycanthropy can be inflicted upon players. There are rules for what happens when a player is infected with lycanthropy, not for creating a player character as a lycanthrope. Note that it explicitly says that the PC can be taken under DM control until lycanthropy is cured.

Interesting or not, the intent of lycanthropy as presented in the books is pretty clearly that it's a curse you don't want to have. As you've experienced, it becomes hugely unbalancing if it's taken as a normal player option that the PC will have throughout his career.

If a player wants to play as a lycanthrope throughout the campaign, it's better to just homebrew a balanced PC race that has the flavor you want.

[RickAllison]

Claws count as Natural Weapons, which are most definitely not not weapons.



First of all, it is. It straight up has things in the MM SPECIFICALLY FOR PCs, such as PC Lycanthrope rules. Also, there is a reason int the character's lore. It's actually pretty interesting.

I think his meaning that it wasn't an option is that it is not something players should expect to be able to choose. When something is considered a player option, it is something that they could reasonably argue at any table that they should be able to take the option. Lycanthropes do not function like that, they are even more restricted than the Death domain and the Oathbreaker in that permission must be obtained before one can actually expect to use it.

[BiPolar]

Claws count as Natural Weapons, which are most definitely not not weapons.



First of all, it is. It straight up has things in the MM SPECIFICALLY FOR PCs, such as PC Lycanthrope rules. Also, there is a reason int the character's lore. It's actually pretty interesting.

Man, I'm 0/2 today. Does seem that the MM Natural Weapon is separate from the PHB Unarmed Strike.

PHB page 195 :The rule on unarmed strikes should read as follows: “Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.”

MM Page 10: The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike.

[DontEatRawHagis]

He keeps his same statistics when in his other forms. The difference between being a lycanthrope and being a Wild Shape druid is that the druid assumes the form whereas the weretiger just IS that form. Ruling as you do both goes against RAW and goes against the fluff.

As for the clothes, this actually occurred in the introductory scene for my wereraven. He had been called out on being in disguise by a pseudo-god, but he couldn't change back because he would then be a 7'8" minotaur standing with everything hanging in the wind...

Fluff depends on your perspective. A DM has every right to say that you lose access to spells when you become a werewolf if in his campaign werewolves don't work that way. Or that your animal instincts takeover and you can't remember what its like to be human or which ever race you were.

I'm all for different character types, but if a player said to me that his bard is a Werewolf guitarist I am going to ask questions. Does he want a race of creatures that are Werewolves? In which case I'd be all for it. Or does he want to be cursed with Lycanthrope, but still be a guitarist werewolf? In which case I'll ask "how is that supposed to be a curse? It doesn't seem to be a detriment to you at all!"

Its one thing for a town to be full of fully functioning werewolves during the full moon, its another when the town was cursed to be transformed into ravage beasts. A werewolf guitarist should not be possible in the latter situation.

I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms or Grey Hawk or whatever setting is the basis for Fluff on werecreatures. Real life's myths on Werewolves is so varied that any one can be used/chosen for a game setting.

From a crunch perspective I don't see why a DM would allow it as it is unbalancing early on. Weretigers are CR4. If I was in the OP's shoes I would allow for the player to be a Weretiger without being able to use his class abilities, but once he reached an appropriate level I'd allow it(lets say 10). Because by whatever point it won't matter.


And it also notes that the DM is free to take control of the character until it's cured. Because it is pretty OP.

Agreed. This is something that always irks me when players want to have control of their Werewolves.

In my campaigns I'll say okay you are facing werewolves. Their immediate thought process is "YEAH! Lets get cool superpowers!!!". In one case my player literally sat still so one of them would bite him. Of course he wanted super strength, speed, and healing so he could be a super hero.

When I told my player that the werewolves are actual werewolves like in the Wolf Man horror movies he got upset because he wanted White Wolf/Underworld werewolves that actually could control their actions.

I warned him. Specifically I said they were people who turned into werewolves at night and were not in control of their actions. Eventually I had to relent because he would have quit the game and we used his house to game. Not a situation I like to be in.

[Zethus]

It does not state that lycanthropy is a player option, just that lycanthropy can be inflicted upon players. There are rules for what happens when a player is infected with lycanthropy, not for creating a player character as a lycanthrope. Note that it explicitly says that the PC can be taken under DM control until lycanthropy is cured.

Interesting or not, the intent of lycanthropy as presented in the books is pretty clearly that it's a curse you don't want to have. As you've experienced, it becomes hugely unbalancing if it's taken as a normal player option that the PC will have throughout his career.

If a player wants to play as a lycanthrope throughout the campaign, it's better to just homebrew a balanced PC race that has the flavor you want.


I think his meaning that it wasn't an option is that it is not something players should expect to be able to choose. When something is considered a player option, it is something that they could reasonably argue at any table that they should be able to take the option. Lycanthropes do not function like that, they are even more restricted than the Death domain and the Oathbreaker in that permission must be obtained before one can actually expect to use it.


Fluff depends on your perspective. A DM has every right to say that you lose access to spells when you become a werewolf if in his campaign werewolves don't work that way. Or that your animal instincts takeover and you can't remember what its like to be human or which ever race you were.

I'm all for different character types, but if a player said to me that his bard is a Werewolf guitarist I am going to ask questions. Does he want a race of creatures that are Werewolves? In which case I'd be all for it. Or does he want to be cursed with Lycanthrope, but still be a guitarist werewolf? In which case I'll ask "how is that supposed to be a curse? It doesn't seem to be a detriment to you at all!"

Its one thing for a town to be full of fully functioning werewolves during the full moon, its another when the town was cursed to be transformed into ravage beasts. A werewolf guitarist should not be possible in the latter situation.

I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms or Grey Hawk or whatever setting is the basis for Fluff on werecreatures. Real life's myths on Werewolves is so varied that any one can be used/chosen for a game setting.

From a crunch perspective I don't see why a DM would allow it as it is unbalancing early on. Weretigers are CR4. If I was in the OP's shoes I would allow for the player to be a Weretiger without being able to use his class abilities, but once he reached an appropriate level I'd allow it(lets say 10). Because by whatever point it won't matter.



Agreed. This is something that always irks me when players want to have control of their Werewolves.

In my campaigns I'll say okay you are facing werewolves. Their immediate thought process is "YEAH! Lets get cool superpowers!!!". In one case my player literally sat still so one of them would bite him. Of course he wanted super strength, speed, and healing so he could be a super hero.

When I told my player that the werewolves are actual werewolves like in the Wolf Man horror movies he got upset because he wanted White Wolf/Underworld werewolves that actually could control their actions.

I warned him. Specifically I said they were people who turned into werewolves at night and were not in control of their actions. Eventually I had to relent because he would have quit the game and we used his house to game. Not a situation I like to be in.

While I understand all of this, the character in question was born with it and therefore has more control over it than if someone was cursed, say, a year ago. So far, during full moons, he goes off to hunt far from civilization and all and lets it happen there. Also, the player has been doing great on the RP front and is very much influenced as a Weretiger in his behavior, such as generally liking his human form much better than Hybrid or Full form. Plus, Weretigers are True Neutral so it's somewhat less severe like Werewolf or similar would be.

[RickAllison]

Fluff depends on your perspective. A DM has every right to say that you lose access to spells when you become a werewolf if in his campaign werewolves don't work that way. Or that your animal instincts takeover and you can't remember what its like to be human or which ever race you were.

I'm all for different character types, but if a player said to me that his bard is a Werewolf guitarist I am going to ask questions. Does he want a race of creatures that are Werewolves? In which case I'd be all for it. Or does he want to be cursed with Lycanthrope, but still be a guitarist werewolf? In which case I'll ask "how is that supposed to be a curse? It doesn't seem to be a detriment to you at all!"

Its one thing for a town to be full of fully functioning werewolves during the full moon, its another when the town was cursed to be transformed into ravage beasts. A werewolf guitarist should not be possible in the latter situation.

I'm not familiar with Forgotten Realms or Grey Hawk or whatever setting is the basis for Fluff on werecreatures. Real life's myths on Werewolves is so varied that any one can be used/chosen for a game setting.

From a crunch perspective I don't see why a DM would allow it as it is unbalancing early on. Weretigers are CR4. If I was in the OP's shoes I would allow for the player to be a Weretiger without being able to use his class abilities, but once he reached an appropriate level I'd allow it(lets say 10). Because by whatever point it won't matter.



Agreed. This is something that always irks me when players want to have control of their Werewolves.

In my campaigns I'll say okay you are facing werewolves. Their immediate thought process is "YEAH! Lets get cool superpowers!!!". In one case my player literally sat still so one of them would bite him. Of course he wanted super strength, speed, and healing so he could be a super hero.

When I told my player that the werewolves are actual werewolves like in the Wolf Man horror movies he got upset because he wanted White Wolf/Underworld werewolves that actually could control their actions.

I warned him. Specifically I said they were people who turned into werewolves at night and were not in control of their actions. Eventually I had to relent because he would have quit the game and we used his house to game. Not a situation I like to be in.

That sounds... Less than fun. First of all, as a werewolf, he should only be able to control it if he embraced it (in which case he is Chaotic Evil). The fluff in the books is ambivalent on whether those who embrace it are in control during the automatic change during the full moon. Personally, I do think it is cool to become a werecreature, but one needs to respect all parts of being that form. If you want to control it, you need to become the beast. If you want the powers but don't want to become the beast, make sure to have some chains when the full moon hits...

[Theodoxus]

I love me some OP characters! My current group, running a heavily modified LMoP going to HotDQ are all gestalt. It was originally a 4 man group, with a flaky player, so they wanted to be a little beefier than normal. They've since gotten two additional players...

They're currently 5th level.
Wizard(necro)/Paladin (oathbreaker) - I modified the way necromancy works (as lightly detailed in the 'necromancy' thread here. She has a disembodied immortal head as a companion/familiar - though he was subsumed by a magical cloak that transformed into armor for her. She's also a flying tiefling... Very much like a succubus.

Fighter (Champion)/Warlock (blade/fiend) - wears a mask from the Horseman of War and owns a fullblade (2d8, 5' reach) called "Splatterfire" that deals a cumulative 1d4 fire damage on a crit. The mask boosts his crit range (on top of other effects, based on level) so Splatterfire is quite happy in his hands.

Monk(shadow)/Rogue(assassin) - first time player, gravitated towards a ninja. Has a boosted cloak of the elvenkind called 'Cloak of Shadows' that enhances both classes.

Barbarian(totem, bear)/Ranger(hunter) - another first time player, started as bard/ranger, but reclassed to Barbarian for better synergy. He has a cloak of the bear, which currently allows him to shapechange into a bear, but will eventually give him full werebear abilities.

Paladin(ancients)/Sorcerer(Wild) - most 'mundane' in the group, has eschewed magical items so far. Did pick up a +1 shield - but he's already very tanky. Has had some really fun and funny wild magic surges, though no ground target fireballs... yet.

Bard(lore)/Cleric(arcane) - has a "Staff of the Powerful Magical Elements", which combines the abilities of a staff of power, staff of the magi and a modification of the staff of fire. Changes elements everyday (d8 to determine), including radiant and necrotic. The abilities (including spells) unlock by level, so it's not all that great at 5th level, but it makes the player happy.

I've had so much fun building scenarios and encounters that challenge the party. High powered is a lot of fun to run. Have a blast!

[BiPolar]

While I understand all of this, the character in question was born with it and therefore has more control over it than if someone was cursed, say, a year ago. So far, during full moons, he goes off to hunt far from civilization and all and lets it happen there. Also, the player has been doing great on the RP front and is very much influenced as a Weretiger in his behavior, such as generally liking his human form much better than Hybrid or Full form. Plus, Weretigers are True Neutral so it's somewhat less severe like Werewolf or similar would be.

If you're concerned about his OPness compared to other characters then you need to stop making him super OP. You have a lot of options, both RP and combat, to scale it back but you seem to want to open it up even more. If you can accommodate your world for a PC like this and, more importantly, the other PCs are okay with it, then go for it. But if they're not, or you aren't prepared or wanting to create encounters tailored specifically for the weretiger (which is what you're going to need to do or have a major spotlight problem), then I'd scale it back and/or remove it.

[Demonic Spoon]

While I understand all of this, the character in question was born with it and therefore has more control over it than if someone was cursed, say, a year ago. So far, during full moons, he goes off to hunt far from civilization and all and lets it happen there. Also, the player has been doing great on the RP front and is very much influenced as a Weretiger in his behavior, such as generally liking his human form much better than Hybrid or Full form. Plus, Weretigers are True Neutral so it's somewhat less severe like Werewolf or similar would be.
You're providing narrative justification for mechanical problem. There's nothing wrong with the RP end of what your player is doing, it's just mechanically unbalanced and not supported by the RAW - hence my suggestion that you use a more balanced lycanthrope PC race.

[manny2510]

Powerful PC's die first. Read the trope "Warf Effect" but essentially any PC that is very powerful is unlikely to be saved when they drop. For example, if you are the most powerful as a PC your allies probably know this as well. Individually you may be able to kill appropriate challenges to the party by yourself. However, individually if you meet your match, you will hit the ground like a sack of bricks and the party will be spooked. Therefore, the party is effectively crippled if they lose you, but more balanced for future engagements.

[Zethus]

You're providing narrative justification for mechanical problem. There's nothing wrong with the RP end of what your player is doing, it's just mechanically unbalanced and not supported by the RAW - hence my suggestion that you use a more balanced lycanthrope PC race.

Honestly, I'm not too worried about his lycanthropy on account of it being controlled, a plot point that I can use, properly RP'd and rarely used. Honestly the bonuses he does get from it are pretty much only the Str, Keen Hearing/Smell and the actual full moon effect. I'm honestly more concerned about an imbalance from the stats and passive buffs themselves that the lycanthropy adds to, not the rarely-used Hybrid or Full form lycanthropy.

[Aldarin]

Personally, I think that these characters make the game a bit more fun. My wizard that I currently play got rolls of 18, 16, 15, 14, 12, 9, and nobody has too much trouble with him. A barbarian in the group I DM got 18,18,16,15,14,7. I thought he was kidding, but he showed me a video of his rolls. in both cases, these characters just made the game better, not worse.

[Vogonjeltz]

How do you take PCs who happen to be very powerful? Do you think these have detrimental effects on the playgroup, challenge to encounters, etc?

I ask because one of the PCs in my campaign, before we even rolled stats, decided to be a Weretiger Pirate Monk for lolz or whatever before seeing what all those things do. He got pretty great stat rolls (18, 16, 15, 14, 10, 10) and I had said that Variants were OK before, so he ended up with a Dex of 20 (18+1+Athlete) and Wis/Str of 17 (16+1 and Weretiger bonus respectively) at level 1, immune to nonmagical, nonsilver attacks, etc. and he (and one other party member) took down an ogre with relative ease at level 2 (while the healer was busy with a dying ranger).

Do you allow characters like this in your campaigns?

I don't allow player characters run monsters, like Weretigers or The Tarrasque, in the first place, that tends to resolve any issues.

[RickAllison]

I don't allow player characters run monsters, like Weretigers or The Tarrasque, in the first place, that tends to resolve any issues.

He's not running a monster, he is running a template. Distinct difference, templates are made to be applied to existing characters... They just aren't balanced.

[Sigreid]

I don't think this has to be too much of a problem. Torches, poison, a couple of cantrips, alchemist fire, oil, there are lots of ways to make tiger boy just as vulnerable as everyone else. The way they are handled in 5e lycanthrops are only a real problem for people who don't realize what they are up against or not prepared. There's also exposure, hunger, exhaustion, drowning, strangulation or any of a myriad of other ways to cause damage that don't involve bludgeon, pierce or slash damage.

[RickAllison]

I don't think this has to be too much of a problem. Torches, poison, a couple of cantrips, alchemist fire, oil, there are lots of ways to make tiger boy just as vulnerable as everyone else. The way they are handled in 5e lycanthrops are only a real problem for people who don't realize what they are up against or not prepared. There's also exposure, hunger, exhaustion, drowning, strangulation or any of a myriad of other ways to cause damage that don't involve bludgeon, pierce or slash damage.

Indeed. There is one key advantage that lycanthropes have over standard PCs: when a weapon hurts like a son-of-a-gun, they know that it's worth selling!!!

[Hairfish]

Honestly, I'm not too worried about his lycanthropy on account of it being controlled, a plot point that I can use, properly RP'd and rarely used. Honestly the bonuses he does get from it are pretty much only the Str, Keen Hearing/Smell and the actual full moon effect. I'm honestly more concerned about an imbalance from the stats and passive buffs themselves that the lycanthropy adds to, not the rarely-used Hybrid or Full form lycanthropy.

What's wrong with: "I'm sorry, but I made a mistake in allowing you to play an overpowered race when no one else wanted to and it's hampering my ability to provide encounters which challenge all the PCs similarly. You need to change characters."

[Saffron-sama]

Allow the other players to have 2 blessings (Pg. 228 DMG) or one epic boon (Keep in mind these are really strong and should pick out some that you are fine with being in the party, Pg. 232 DMG). That should help with him being stronger then the rest of the party you will just need to find what their power level is afterwords. Plus I love the idea of weretiger or werebear players.
If you want to go the other way and weaken the weretiger make him a level or two less then the party up to like level 10 or so.