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Storm Bringer
2007-06-21, 01:03 PM
I'm thinking of drawing up a specialist wizard for my next campgain, but am in two minds as to wether it's worth it.

I expect this to a low level campgain, but i really don't know wether it's worth the largish loss of spells for a few extra spell slots.

what are this forums opinions on the matter? Is Specialisation a good idea (or at least not a very bad one), or something i should avoid like a Miko-type paladin?

Kurald Galain
2007-06-21, 01:08 PM
In low-level campaigns, specialization means you can cast about 33% extra spells per day. That's pretty significant, plus it can add flavor to your character. So I'd say yes, go for it, and if your DM allows, consider taking one of the "familiar substitutions" from the PHB2 (e.g. the Transmuter special lets you fly for one round, a few times per day).

What to specialize in is up to you, really. Not every school is equally powerful, but at low level that's not really as significant. My personal faves are Transmutation and Illusion.

Amiria
2007-06-21, 01:11 PM
Specialization is good. If you don't want to lose much then you can become a Diviner.

These are the schools with which you can live without, imo:

Echantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy

My favorite prohibited schools are Enchantment and Necromancy, since I usually play good-aligned mages who who like a little flahing blasting magic and don't like to enslave people or use negative energy.

However, Enchantment and especially Necromany (Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation) can be extremly powerful.

Enchantment, Illusion and Necormancy are the three schools which have problems with blind spots which can completely shut down their power (immunities to mind-affecting and negative energy effects, True Seeing, etc.)

Evocation is generally regarded as the weakest school since blasting is weak - but it is also fun. And there are still some useful spells in it, especially those with the [Force] descriptor, Defenestrating Sphere, and Contingency.

PlatinumJester
2007-06-22, 04:55 AM
Be a diviner and lose Evocation.

Ikkitosen
2007-06-22, 05:44 AM
For low-level play spells/day is very important. Be a focused specialist (conj, trans perhaps), lose 3 schools (2 as a diviner, but do you really want 3 divinations at each level memorised every day?) and gain lots more spells. You might feel the school loss at higher levels but you'll be zapping away all day :smallsmile:

Swooper
2007-06-22, 05:53 AM
From the SRD:

A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day(Emphasis mine.)
This fact makes diviners less interesting, since really, what good low level divinations are there that you want to memorize EVERY DAY? Sure, Scry, Foresight and some others might be good, but those are all high level. If it wasn't for Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic, Divination would be the school I'd throw away first every time with specialist wizards.

Be a conjurer or a transmuter, throw enchantment and either evocation or necromancy.

Kurald Galain
2007-06-22, 06:00 AM
True Strike.
Detect Thoughts.
Clairvoyance.

It's viable but yeah, I prefer transmuters or illusionists :smallsmile:

Droodle
2007-06-22, 06:14 AM
This fact makes diviners less interesting, since really, what good low level divinations are there that you want to memorize EVERY DAY? Off the top of my head? (1)True Stike or Comprehend Languages, (2) See Invisibility, (3)Clairaudience/Clairvoyance or Tongues, (4)Arcane Eye, Extended Clairaudience/Clairvoyance or Tongues, Scrying, or Detect Scrying, (5)Prying Eyes or Telepathic Bond, (6)True Seeing, (7) Greater Scrying or Greater Arcan Sight (8)Moment of Prescience or Greater Prying Eyes, (9)Foresight


Just because you can't (usually) kill anything with divination doesn't mean that it isn't one of the most useful spell schools in all of D&D. At low levels, Divination is a good school for use during combat(True Strike, See Invisibility)

Swooper
2007-06-22, 06:44 AM
I fail to see the usefulness of True Strike - spending a standard action to auto-hit with something next round.. Hmm, sure, maybe with a Ray of Enfeeblement, but there's not much else a low level wizard can use it for. If it'd be a swift action to cast, now that would already be much better.

As for Comprehend Languages, See Invisibility, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience(really, they ought to find a better name for that spell) and Tongues... Surely, that goes into the same category as Knock , Protection From Energy and such - Useful to have around on a scroll, but not useful taking up a spell slot every day.

But hey, if you can only spare one school and are OK with those spells taking up one of your spell slots at each level for the day, more power to you. I'll stick with transmuters, then :smallwink:

Droodle
2007-06-22, 06:58 AM
I fail to see the usefulness of True Strike - spending a standard action to auto-hit with something next round..Ambushes.


As for Comprehend Languages, See Invisibility, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience(really, they ought to find a better name for that spell) and Tongues... Surely, that goes into the same category as Knock , Protection From Energy and such - Useful to have around on a scroll, but not useful taking up a spell slot every day.
I'm going to disagree with you about See Invisibility and Clairvoyance. Unless you already know exactly what's ahead of you, these are spells you'll use all the time. I very rarely go through a gaming session without using up my divination spells.

Solo
2007-06-22, 07:08 AM
Specialization is good. If you don't want to lose much then you can become a Diviner.

These are the schools with which you can live without, imo:

Echantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy


How do you get by without Invisibility?

Amiria
2007-06-22, 07:24 AM
How do you get by without Invisibility?

I don't know, I never played a wizard who banned the Illusion school. But it is possible. You lose some nice spells for protection and sneaking but you can find substitutes (like Polymorph, not invisible, but looking just like another orc minion for the BBEG) or count on other casters in the group - like the bard.

prufock
2007-06-22, 07:27 AM
This fact makes diviners less interesting, since really, what good low level divinations are there that you want to memorize EVERY DAY? Sure, Scry, Foresight and some others might be good, but those are all high level. If it wasn't for Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic, Divination would be the school I'd throw away first every time with specialist wizards.

Others have mentioned useful, but I think your logic about the bonus spell slot is flawed.

First level generalist spells per day (ignoring in bonus):
0-level
1. One of any of the eight schools
2. One of any of the eight schools
3. One of any of the eight schools

1st-level
1. One of any of the eight schools

First level diviner spells per day (ignoring int bonus):
0-level
1. One of any of the seven allowed schools
2. One of any of the seven allowed schools
3. One of any of the seven allowed schools
*4. Divination

1st-level
1. One of any of the seven allowed schools
*2. Divination

You've lost the versatility of that one barred school, for an extra spell every day. How is an extra divination spell every day not worth it? You've already mentioned Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic, so now you have both of those prepared every day without giving up a spell slot.

Swooper
2007-06-22, 08:11 AM
Others have mentioned useful, but I think your logic about the bonus spell slot is flawed.
You've lost the versatility of that one barred school, for an extra spell every day. How is an extra divination spell every day not worth it? You've already mentioned Comprehend Languages and Detect Magic, so now you have both of those prepared every day without giving up a spell slot.
Ah, you seem to have misunderstood me. I would agree that a diviner is superior to a generalist any day. My point is that it isn't superior to other specializations. Let's look at your diviner spells per day:


First level diviner spells per day (ignoring int bonus):
0-level
1. One of any of the seven allowed schools
2. One of any of the seven allowed schools
3. One of any of the seven allowed schools
*4. Divination

1st-level
1. One of any of the seven allowed schools
*2. Divination
Now, let's look at his buddy the conjuror:
First level conjuror spells per day (ignoring int bonus):
0-level
1. One of any of the six allowed schools
2. One of any of the six allowed schools
3. One of any of the six allowed schools
*4. Conjuration

1st-level
1. One of any of the six allowed schools
*2. Conjuration

I'd take the conjuror any day.

Ramza00
2007-06-22, 08:33 AM
I'd take the conjuror any day.
The point of divination wasn't that it was the best, the r0x0r (to use a horrible internet word), its the fact you get something for effectively nothing.

From a mechanical point of view there is little reason not to specialize, if you don't want to give up choices of schools play a diviner wizard. (One big exception is the generalist elf wizard with the elf substitution levels.)

Whiplord
2007-06-22, 11:17 AM
In the case oc classes like incantatrix, that require the banning of another school on entrance, is it wise to specialise?

Amiria
2007-06-22, 11:19 AM
In the case oc classes like incantatrix, that require the banning of another school on entrance, is it wise to specialise?

Imo, only as a Diviner, otherwise you lose too much versatility with three prohibited schools.

Dausuul
2007-06-22, 11:43 AM
In low-level campaigns, specialization means you can cast about 33% extra spells per day. That's pretty significant, plus it can add flavor to your character. So I'd say yes, go for it, and if your DM allows, consider taking one of the "familiar substitutions" from the PHB2 (e.g. the Transmuter special lets you fly for one round, a few times per day).

The substitutions are fun and useful... but don't take the conjuration one, because if you do, your DM is likely to smite your character after about three sessions from pure spite and frustration. (Ten-foot teleport as an immediate action 3+Int times per day? As an ability designed specifically for wizards? Who the hell thought that was roughly equivalent to a familiar?)

Keld Denar
2007-06-22, 11:48 AM
I agree with all counts of divinerisms. It's basically something for nothing. I don't think as a low level generalist, I'd ever have see invis memorized, but as a diviner, I would. PHBII and SC both have some nifty new spells for the div school also. Finally, if you don't like the spells for a given divination level, use metamagic. Truestrike is probably the single most often quickened spell. Lots of every day utility that you wouldn't normally get playing a wizard, and isn't that the main reason you are playing a wizard?

Ramza00
2007-06-22, 11:53 AM
In the case oc classes like incantatrix, that require the banning of another school on entrance, is it wise to specialise?

Depends, if you are the only arcanist in the group then it would your party a lot. Though it is still very doable.

If you aren't the only arcanist go for it (or if you have an archivist and/or a cleric with magic domain.)

prufock
2007-06-22, 12:48 PM
Ah, you seem to have misunderstood me.

I'd say I most definitely did. :smallsmile: If it's just your preference of one school over another, others have mentioned some nice divination spells that would be fine to have prepared - essentially for free - every day.

My picks for divination catch-alls:
0: Detect Magic
1: Identify or True Strike
2: Detect Thoughts or See Invisibility
3: Clairaudience/clairvoyance
4: Scrying
5: Prying Eyes or Telepathic Bond
6: True Seeing!
7: Greater Scrying. Drop the level 4 version for Arcane Eye
8: Moment of Prescience
9: Well, there's really only one choice in the core rules, so Foresight.

Divination does have less options than the other schools, which is why it has a smaller cost - only one banned school. I think it's pretty well balanced.

Personally, I prefer transmutation.

Droodle
2007-06-22, 01:02 PM
I actually really like divination as a specialty school. Divination is, in my opinion, the most important spell school for Batman, since you are likely to have the wrong stuff in your belt without it.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-22, 01:05 PM
In the case oc classes like incantatrix, that require the banning of another school on entrance, is it wise to specialise?

Yes, but be wary if you go for Wizard/Master Specialist/Red Wizard/Incantatrix. Woo! Five banned schools! Let's be a Transmuter, and ban Evocation, Necromancy, Illusion, Enchantment, and Divination.

Ramza00
2007-06-22, 01:10 PM
Yes, but be wary if you go for Wizard/Master Specialist/Red Wizard/Incantatrix. Woo! Five banned schools! Let's be a Transmuter, and ban Evocation, Necromancy, Illusion, Enchantment, and Divination.

Red Wizard is debatable whether you need to ban 2 more schools if you first ban 2 schools.

Thus it would be 2+1+1 for a total of 4.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-22, 01:13 PM
Red Wizard is debatable whether you need to ban 2 more schools if you first ban 2 schools.

Thus it would be 2+1+1 for a total of 4.

Red Wizard says "Ban an additional school," does it not?

Ramza00
2007-06-22, 01:29 PM
Red Wizard says "Ban an additional school," does it not?

It does say ban another school. What is debatable is whether if you are a non diviner specialist (any other school) do you ban 2 more additional schools, or just 1.

In sum does a Wizard/Red Wizard ban 4 schools or just 3 if the specialist is non divination. This is before incantatrix which makes the total ban schools go up 1 more.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-22, 01:30 PM
Master Specialist makes you ban another one, too, no?

Ramza00
2007-06-22, 02:12 PM
the prc doesn't make you ban another school (master specialist)

the substitution option focused specialist does.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-22, 02:13 PM
the prc doesn't make you ban another school (master specialist)

the substitution option focused specialist does.

That's what I was thinking of.