Looking for an advice regarding Psion (Shaper) and creative power usage

[Kuu Lightwing]

Hello again! I'm still kinda new to the game (because I've read a lot of DnD stuff, but I can't play as much DnD as I probably would like), I've got an opportunity to try another character (The duskblade girl is doing okay so far, by the way :)).

So, I decided to try playing a psion. After some (okay, a lot of) reading and searching about psionics and psion in general, I think I'll be able to select powers and feats, but I need some advice regarding the usage of these powers. Well, some advice about power selection would be nice, anyways :) I talked to DM and we do indeed use CPsi and its nerfs which is probably not a good thing...

The party is really small - a Rogue, Me and (probably) Cleric or Druid. Here's my stats and power selection so far:

Dio, Level 4 Elan Psion(Shaper)

STR 12
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 18 (17 + 1 for 4th level)
WIZ 15
CHA 13

...yes, I rolled really well.

Level 1 powers:
Astral Construct(A)
Minor Creation, Psionic
Call to Mind
Energy Ray(A) (I REALLY want to use Crystal Shard instead, but CPsi nerf is going to make it not that useful cause there's no way to bypass that DR with this power)
Detect Psionics (Eh, somebody has to check for magic, right?)

Level 2 powers:
Identify, Psionic (I'm going to be the party wizard, so I kinda have to, right?)
Control Sound
Crystalstorm(A)
Energy Adaptation, Specified

I haven't chosen feats yet, but I do want to skip psicrystal actually. I know that it's very useful and powerful feat, but I don't quite think that it would fit my character concept. So, looking advice on those.

Skills:

Concentration: 7 + 3(CON) = 10
Craft (Sculpture): 7 + 4(INT) = 11 (For Astral Construct power)
All knowledges: 1 + 4(INT) = 5 (9 with Call to Mind power)
Psicraft: 1 + 4(INT) = 5 (Psicraft can't be used as a substitute for Spellcraft, so I'll probably won't need it at all)

After that I have 10 skill points left and I think about maxing a second Craft (???) skill, but I don't know what to chose. It would probably be used for Psi Minor Creation and powers like that, but since I don't have enough experience I'm not sure what kind of Craft I would need the most.
Also thinking about Bluff, but eh... Not sure.

And one of the main reasons I created this is that I'm looking for an advice regarding the usage of powers like Astral Construct, Minor Creation and even Control sound. The provide so much freedom, but I'm looking for some ideas how to use them. I know about like black lotus poison or something, but I'm asking more about utility.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're playing a shaper, definitely get the Linked Power feat. Use it for shortening manifesting times on both astral construct and psionic minor creation. That way you can use the latter tactically, and you won't have to wait around to get ganked while concentrating on manifesting your powers.

Also, look into taking the 3.5 constructor PrC (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b), if you can. It's the best astral construct-based PrC in the game. (Ignore the stupid AC options in CPsi. CPsi is pretty awful overall, aside from a few nice options that got in by accident.)

Is the DM nerfing magic like he is with psionics? Only one summons, DR applies to spells? If not, nab access to the Magic Mantle so you can treat your psionics like magic and ignore the moronic nerfs in CPsi, too.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Well, in other campaign he actually ruled "No more than one summon" except for using higher-level Summon Monster/Nature's Ally to summon a pack of lower-level creatures. And he thinks that a spell deals bludgeoning damage should be a subject to DR, so I could say that he does nerf magic as well :)

I'm not actually sure if I want to focus on Astral Constructs, but I do want to use them to some extend, especially since our party would probably lack tanking power (well, if the third player is a Druid, probably not). And I have that feeling that the best thing about astral constructs is the creative aspect - basically with Craft (Sculpture) check, I make whatever I want, right?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, and if I were you, I'd spend skill points on Bluff and Use Psionic Device. Both are quite useful, especially if you have a reasonably high Cha score. And if you have the Magic Mantle (likely through a dip in ardent or mantled ACF wilder or something), you can treat your UPD and Psicraft as UMD and Spellcraft, respectively, essentially giving you two maxed-out skills for free.

Also, there's a feat in Hyperconscious (if it's allowed) that increases the durations on your constructs to a flat 10 minutes. You'll want to psychic reformation it out once you take enough levels in constructor (assuming you go that route), but it's a great option, even so. It decreases the number of power points you need to spend on consecutive fights, and it allows you to use constructs in ways you normally couldn't (such as for overland travel).

As far as using your powers is concerned, shapers are a GREAT platform for thinking outside the box. Use your constructs as mobile walls (as enemies can't pass through their spaces), makeshift door blockades, (flying and/or swimming) mounts, and for dealing with hazards that they are largely immune to but will **** your **** up if you deal with them yourself -- like house fires, or undead, as constructs are immune to both smoke inhalation and most necromantic effects. Create/Control sound is basically sound mimicry and ventriloquism on steroids. Psionic minor creation can create everything from a giant amber hamster ball you can roll around in for protection to food items to poisons, which comes in really handy for all sorts of things -- especially with Linked Power to decrease the manifesting time; one of the most useful powers in your repertoire. Time hop can be used offensively (taking enemies out of battle, especially their weaker-willed mounts, or by targeting a link on the chain holding up a chandelier, dropping it on your foes), defensively (hopping out an ally which is about to hit -10 hp while bleeding out), or for utility (on a door that's in your way, or a chest holding all sorts of potential goodies inside it). Wall of ectoplasm is pretty good battlefield control, forcing enemies to waste time hacking through it or deal with being herded where you want (unless they can teleport, of course).

If you don't go with constructor, you might consider taking a level in factotum, as that will massively boost your skills and Int-usage. Or not. It depends entirely on what direction you want to take your character.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I would actually prefer to just stick to Psion to reduce the complications (for me and my DM, because he doesn't have much experience with psionics too) For Psi sourcebooks, I think we're using EXP and CPsi, and that's it. So I guess I'll at least take Boost Construct, and Linked Power. I know about reducing manifesting time trick, but that sounds kinda cheesy and I'm not sure if DM would be too happy about that. There's also some cheese with Synchronicity, but I don't actually have that power (Darn, 9 powers is too few!)
Probably Extend Power too, right? That's all the feats I get for now. For 5th level I thought about Expanded Knowledge for some other discipline power (Energy Missile? Clairvoyant Sense?) but I don't know yet.

For using constructs as mounts, that was one of my first thoughts, but unfortunately I'll have to wait till level 9, I believe, because till then I only could construct Medium constructs and those can only be mounts for our Rogue (who is obviously a halfling :D)

Thank you for advices!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Extend Power is a good feat, yes, though I'd hold off on Expanded Knowledge. Instead, add a telepath mentor into your backstory that has access to psychic chirurgery. Pay for "spellcasting services" and buy a few manifestations of it at higher levels to give you extra powers known without costing you feats.

Since you're an elan, look at some of the elan-specific feats in CPsi to boost your elan abilities. Spending power points to reduce incoming damage can save your arse, though of course the Psicrystal Affinity/vigor/share pain trick is more efficient, but it costs feats and powers known (not that any of those options are bad at all), and (here's the kicker) it requires you to have those up ahead of time.

[Flickerdart]

Ditch detect psionics and identify. Instead, buy them as power stones and manifest from them with your own PP without wiping the stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown). It's longer and harder than just manifesting, so you can't use it for combat, but it's perfect for those powers like identify that you're manifetsing during downtime.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ditch detect psionics and identify. Instead, buy them as power stones and manifest from them with your own PP without wiping the stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown). It's longer and harder than just manifesting, so you can't use it for combat, but it's perfect for those powers like identify that you're manifetsing during downtime.I agree with this, except manifesting from a stone using your pp auto-wipes the stone, as mentioned in the sidebar in CPsi. Still, 25 gp per use is extremely cheap, though you won't be able to use Linked Power on psionic identify to lower the manifesting time to a standard action or less -- not that it's an issue, if you think it's too much cheese for your group.

Also, buy and wear light armor (and shields) with 0 armor check penalty, such as a mithril chain shirt. Not having proficiency literally does nothing against you, since taking the ACP (which is 0) as a penalty to various skills and to initiative is no hindrance at all. You can either take inertial armor as a power known or buy some power stones for it, as you like.

[Flickerdart]

I agree with this, except manifesting from a stone using your pp auto-wipes the stone, as mentioned in the sidebar in CPsi.
Which sidebar? Because that would make manifesting from the stone completely pointless, since you can just use it normally (like a scroll) faster.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Extend Power is a good feat, yes, though I'd hold off on Expanded Knowledge. Instead, add a telepath mentor into your backstory that has access to psychic chirurgery. Pay for "spellcasting services" and buy a few manifestations of it at higher levels to give you extra powers known without costing you feats.

Eh, I don't know if DM lets me to do that and having a telepath mentor probably also won't fit this character. He should probably come from quite far away, because in the part of the world where our campaign is taking place there's little-to-no psionics. But thanks for the suggestion anyways.



Since you're an elan, look at some of the elan-specific feats in CPsi to boost your elan abilities. Spending power points to reduce incoming damage can save your arse, though of course the Psicrystal Affinity/vigor/share pain trick is more efficient, but it costs feats and powers known (not that any of those options are bad at all), and (here's the kicker) it requires you to have those up ahead of time.
Oh, those feats do look interesting... I'm just wondering if there's something that allows to improve my effectiveness as a Psion, not just save my arse :) I can just get Psionic Meditation, because, well, it's really useful for those metapsionic feats I'm taking, right? :)


Ditch detect psionics and identify. Instead, buy them as power stones and manifest from them with your own PP without wiping the stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown). It's longer and harder than just manifesting, so you can't use it for combat, but it's perfect for those powers like identify that you're manifetsing during downtime.

It's actually sounds interesting and helps to save those power slots, but I'm not particularly sure why does it allow to use power stone without wiping it, because as far as I see it doesn't say so...

[Kuu Lightwing]

I agree with this, except manifesting from a stone using your pp auto-wipes the stone, as mentioned in the sidebar in CPsi. Still, 25 gp per use is extremely cheap, though you won't be able to use Linked Power on psionic identify to lower the manifesting time to a standard action or less -- not that it's an issue, if you think it's too much cheese for your group
I'm just not sure if it's too much cheese... The problem is that it allows to reduce the manifesting time drastically - like you spend well... basically no actions instead of 24 hours of manifesting. It feels weird and it's not like it's ambiguous or something... Was it intended to work that way?


Also, buy and wear light armor (and shields) with 0 armor check penalty, such as a mithril chain shirt. Not having proficiency literally does nothing against you, since taking the ACP (which is 0) as a penalty to various skills and to initiative is no hindrance at all. You can either take inertial armor as a power known or buy some power stones for it, as you like.

Yeah, I know about that trick. Mithral CS is, what 1100gp? I think I could afford that using level 4 WBL... BTW, I have no idea what to buy for a Psion in regard of equipment... He doesn't need a weapon, or a spellbook. I probably won't find any psionic items during the campaign, by the way, so I guess I should bring some with me. Yea, that would also complicate buying dorjes or power stones.

[DrMartin]

I would delegate detect magic duties to the cleric/druid and ask the DM if s/he would allow spellcraft rolls to identify magic items, a-la pathfinder.

Craft (alchemy) can have a lot of uses with minor creation, if your dm is cool with it. even without squeezing black lotus extract or other heavy poisons out of it, there's tons of other vegetable substances among the publiched alchemical items and drugs that can be very useful - Witchweed (creates a smoke that forces caster to pass a concentration check in order to cast), Redflower leaves (large bonus to to-hit against a single opponent when consumed, pass it around to your team mates), Ruhl (forces the Rage condition), Sak'rash (immunity to zone of truth, detect toughts and similar effects) are among my favourites. There's surely more high-power options out there, but these are more about expanding your options.

Channel the Psychic Dragon is a cool power that offers a lot of flexibility. My last character ended up manifesting it a lot, at least :D

It will cost you a feat or a bit of searching for somebody to do psychic chirurgery, but Dimension Swap is tons and tons of fun, especially in a small group where you will have to improvise tactically a lot, and especially combined with astral constructs

[Troacctid]

The Scion of the Twelve (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070620) feat gives you Detect Psionics at will and boosts your ML by +2 for all clairsentience powers. It's a very good feat. I'm also a fan of Elan Resilience, which can make you pretty, well, resilient. Elans have great racial feat options.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Before anything else, make sure your DM doesn't want to play with the psionics is different "option." Because that's always a bad, bad, baaaaaad idea. Psionics is magic, and it should play well with magic. Otherwise, it screws everything up.


Which sidebar? Because that would make manifesting from the stone completely pointless, since you can just use it normally (like a scroll) faster.Page 105, very last sentence in the sidebar. "Using a power stone in this way expends the power within the stone."


Eh, I don't know if DM lets me to do that and having a telepath mentor probably also won't fit this character. He should probably come from quite far away, because in the part of the world where our campaign is taking place there's little-to-no psionics. But thanks for the suggestion anyways.I see psionics as being the most elementally basic of magics. Even sorcerers, supposedly with "inborn" magic, have to dance the Macarena while singing and throwing bat poo at their enemies in order to cast spells. How do you learn to do that naturally, exactly? Whereas a psion just has to concentrate hard on the effect he wants, and he gets it. Psionic characters should be sprinkled about everywhere, because it's the most natural magic in the universe. Even looking at the effects, you can see that psionic powers tend to be more elemental -- not as in earth, fire, air, and water, but more, "this is a basic effect that seems natural." It seems like a far more natural thing to hollow out a dimensional pocket made out of psionically-created crystal (psychoportive shelter) than it is to create a demiplane with a ready-made mansion in it with intelligent unintelligent servants (magnificent mansion).

Really, psions should be everywhere, while sorcerers should be far rarer.

Plus, psions get a lot of mileage for being around other psions. Having several around is always a good idea. Start looking for psionic allies ASAP.


Oh, those feats do look interesting... I'm just wondering if there's something that allows to improve my effectiveness as a Psion, not just save my arse :) I can just get Psionic Meditation, because, well, it's really useful for those metapsionic feats I'm taking, right? :)Can't be effective when you're dead.

But really, you could make an incredibly useful and powerful character just out of augmented 1st level powers, so get the ones you want (probably focusing on the most versatile and useful), start choosing metapsionic feats to boost them (and additional powers to complement those feats), and you should be good.

Also, Psicrystal Affinity is a fantastic feat. Psicrystals are so much better than familiars it's ridiculous. Ask your DM to look over the rules about psicrystals, and take note of all the differences (such as the fact that familiars only get pseudo-HD, while psicrystals gain actual HD, meaning feats and ability score adjustments, just like any creature). Make sure you ask him how to get a psicrystal back if it dies. RAW, you get a new one immediately, since you still have the feat and don't lose the benefits thereof, so it's likely your old one dies and you immediately get a new one, but your DM may not like that. Unlike with familiars, you don't have to pay anything but the feat to get one (so no 100 gp, and no rituals or waiting around), but it's something you'll have to work out for yourselves.

So figure out what feats you want to give to your pet rock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149016-Best-feats-to-give-a-psicrystal), and then get one at some point. They're very tough little buggers (since that 8 hardness can stretch a long way, especially when vigor and share pain are involved), and they have a ton of uses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147603-Best-things-to-do-with-a-psicrystal).


It's actually sounds interesting and helps to save those power slots, but I'm not particularly sure why does it allow to use power stone without wiping it, because as far as I see it doesn't say so...See above. CPsi, p105.


I'm just not sure if it's too much cheese... The problem is that it allows to reduce the manifesting time drastically - like you spend well... basically no actions instead of 24 hours of manifesting. It feels weird and it's not like it's ambiguous or something... Was it intended to work that way?Yep. It does say the Linked powers have the manifesting time of the first power, and that the second power goes off at the beginning of the next round. It's one of the very few things that psionics can do that other forms of magic can't, and I rather like it.


Yeah, I know about that trick. Mithral CS is, what 1100gp? I think I could afford that using level 4 WBL... BTW, I have no idea what to buy for a Psion in regard of equipment... He doesn't need a weapon, or a spellbook. I probably won't find any psionic items during the campaign, by the way, so I guess I should bring some with me. Yea, that would also complicate buying dorjes or power stones.Mostly, utility stuff, at least until higher levels. Then you'll want items to fortify your numbers (ability scores, AC, saves, initiative, power DCs), and things that give you more abilities and defenses (shirt of wraith stalking, shadow cloak from Drow of the Underdark, and lots of stuff from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)) and more manifestations/power points to spread around (+1 manifester arrows, dorjes, power stones).

Remember that items that enhance magic also enhance psionics, if at all feasable -- at least, according to magic/psionics transparency.


I would delegate detect magic duties to the cleric/druid and ask the DM if s/he would allow spellcraft rolls to identify magic items, a-la pathfinder.Detect magic/psionics would work well with an artificer's monocle, especially with that feat mentioned above that gives detect psionics at will.


Craft (alchemy) can have a lot of uses with minor creation, if your dm is cool with it. even without squeezing black lotus extract or other heavy poisons out of it, there's tons of other vegetable substances among the publiched alchemical items and drugs that can be very useful - Witchweed (creates a smoke that forces caster to pass a concentration check in order to cast), Redflower leaves (large bonus to to-hit against a single opponent when consumed, pass it around to your team mates), Ruhl (forces the Rage condition), Sak'rash (immunity to zone of truth, detect toughts and similar effects) are among my favourites. There's surely more high-power options out there, but these are more about expanding your options. I like making alchemical items with psionic minor creation. It's also great for crafting masterwork tools and other items. 1 cubic foot per level is a huge amount of material to work with at later levels, especially for poisons.


Channel the Psychic Dragon is a cool power that offers a lot of flexibility. My last character ended up manifesting it a lot, at least :DThat's a weird power, and I can't really see it being that useful, honestly, since it doesn't scale. Random benefits, low numbers, and not that much utility -- certainly not when compared to many of the other powers available. I'd rather have lots of other low level powers, instead.


It will cost you a feat or a bit of searching for somebody to do psychic chirurgery, but Dimension Swap is tons and tons of fun, especially in a small group where you will have to improvise tactically a lot, and especially combined with astral constructsAgreed.

Try to do whatever you can to find psionic allies. Psychic chirurgery alone is worth any trouble you have to go through to get it.

[DrMartin]

(on Channel the Psychic Dragon)



That's a weird power, and I can't really see it being that useful, honestly, since it doesn't scale. Random benefits, low numbers, and not that much utility -- certainly not when compared to many of the other powers available. I'd rather have lots of other low level powers, instead.


When first reading the power, i had exactly the same impression. My character just sort of "had" to pick it because of fluff, it just made so much sense...and ended up loving it. You have a small array of buffs to skills in which you wouldn't typically invest much, essentially helping you in not being caught with the pants (too much) down, and helping you to improvise solutions. For instance as a shaper you get bluff and Know: Nobility as class skill, so between the synergies and CtPD my diplomacy was in the teens without a single skill rank invested in it - quite useful if you have your own agenda and the party face is not always there to do the talking for you. The other aspect of the power I've used in play quite often was the 9pp augment, +10 to intimidate is a nice bonus and water breathing allows you to make tactical use of every water body the GM puts in your way (this is something that is quite rarely used tactically, as water breathing is the quintessential spell that you prepare only when you know you will have to use it, and as a psion you can drop it anytime), but i think that during that campaign i could finds situations for all of the different augments to be useful.

Point is, Shaper powers are already very versatile, and I've found this power to complement very nicely the other tools i already had. We are now playing a different campaign with Pathfinder psionics and I quite miss having access to it

[Kuu Lightwing]

I would delegate detect magic duties to the cleric/druid and ask the DM if s/he would allow spellcraft rolls to identify magic items, a-la pathfinder.

Craft (alchemy) can have a lot of uses with minor creation, if your dm is cool with it. even without squeezing black lotus extract or other heavy poisons out of it, there's tons of other vegetable substances among the publiched alchemical items and drugs that can be very useful - Witchweed (creates a smoke that forces caster to pass a concentration check in order to cast), Redflower leaves (large bonus to to-hit against a single opponent when consumed, pass it around to your team mates), Ruhl (forces the Rage condition), Sak'rash (immunity to zone of truth, detect toughts and similar effects) are among my favourites. There's surely more high-power options out there, but these are more about expanding your options.

Channel the Psychic Dragon is a cool power that offers a lot of flexibility. My last character ended up manifesting it a lot, at least :D

It will cost you a feat or a bit of searching for somebody to do psychic chirurgery, but Dimension Swap is tons and tons of fun, especially in a small group where you will have to improvise tactically a lot, and especially combined with astral constructs

For some reason I thought that Clerics don't get Detect Magic... As for using spellcraft to identify stuff - DM doesn't like that (I've seen the discussion with another player about that). Well, actually we could just spend money to do so, because it does indeed feel like a bit of a waste for a power slot. Thanks for the alchemy suggestion. I actually was thinking about creating more mundane items with Minor Creation, so I thought I would need some other craft skill to do so...


Before anything else, make sure your DM doesn't want to play with the psionics is different "option." Because that's always a bad, bad, baaaaaad idea. Psionics is magic, and it should play well with magic. Otherwise, it screws everything up.
Nah, that's the first thing we've discussed, so it's okay.


I see psionics as being the most elementally basic of magics. Even sorcerers, supposedly with "inborn" magic, have to dance the Macarena while singing and throwing bat poo at their enemies in order to cast spells. How do you learn to do that naturally, exactly? Whereas a psion just has to concentrate hard on the effect he wants, and he gets it. Psionic characters should be sprinkled about everywhere, because it's the most natural magic in the universe. Even looking at the effects, you can see that psionic powers tend to be more elemental -- not as in earth, fire, air, and water, but more, "this is a basic effect that seems natural." It seems like a far more natural thing to hollow out a dimensional pocket made out of psionically-created crystal (psychoportive shelter) than it is to create a demiplane with a ready-made mansion in it with intelligent unintelligent servants (magnificent mansion).

Really, psions should be everywhere, while sorcerers should be far rarer.

Plus, psions get a lot of mileage for being around other psions. Having several around is always a good idea. Start looking for psionic allies ASAP.

I understand that, but the thing is this setting (it's a custom one) was created before I asked for psionics, and nobody else was asking, and master doesn't usually use psionics, so, basically, he didn't include psionics almost at all, so, well, that's how it is and it would be hard to find any psionic characters...


Can't be effective when you're dead.

But really, you could make an incredibly useful and powerful character just out of augmented 1st level powers, so get the ones you want (probably focusing on the most versatile and useful), start choosing metapsionic feats to boost them (and additional powers to complement those feats), and you should be good.

That I understand, I just thought that Psionic Meditation is a must-have, because spending a full round to recover the focus is going to be cumbersome. So I kinda thought that it's a good idea to prioritize it. I really do want to get those Elan feats, too, but I'm not human, so I just don't have enough feats :( Well, humans don't get Elan feats anyways... Boost construct also feels very good (don't know if it is really, because the summoning feats I've seen boost stats, not abilities, so it's kinda hard to compare)

Same goes for powers... I'm going to get 5 Level 1 powers and 4 Level 2 powers by level 4 and I need to get my constructs, creation, something offensive and probably defensive, right? So, with Detect Psionics/Identify out that makes a list like:
- Astral Construct
- Psi Minor Creation
- Energy Ray/Crystal Shard (really want to take the latter instead of the former...)
- Call to Mind - cause knowledges will be useful.
- Vigor? Synchronicity(for some mild cheese with Linked Power)? Inertial armor? Matter Agitation?

- Control Sound (Utility. I hope I'll be able to use it)
- Crystalstorm (Ability damage, no PR, no save(against damage) has the same fluff as Crystal Shard, so at least I'm going to get this)
- Energy Adaptation, Specified (Well, I do need some defense. Damp Power instead maybe?)
- Ego Whip? Share Pain? (Not sure about that without a pet rock) Psychoportive Shelter?

So hard to chose :(


Also, Psicrystal Affinity is a fantastic feat. Psicrystals are so much better than familiars it's ridiculous. Ask your DM to look over the rules about psicrystals, and take note of all the differences (such as the fact that familiars only get pseudo-HD, while psicrystals gain actual HD, meaning feats and ability score adjustments, just like any creature). Make sure you ask him how to get a psicrystal back if it dies. RAW, you get a new one immediately, since you still have the feat and don't lose the benefits thereof, so it's likely your old one dies and you immediately get a new one, but your DM may not like that. Unlike with familiars, you don't have to pay anything but the feat to get one (so no 100 gp, and no rituals or waiting around), but it's something you'll have to work out for yourselves.

So figure out what feats you want to give to your pet rock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?149016-Best-feats-to-give-a-psicrystal), and then get one at some point. They're very tough little buggers (since that 8 hardness can stretch a long way, especially when vigor and share pain are involved), and they have a ton of uses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?147603-Best-things-to-do-with-a-psicrystal).

I know, and I do want to try them at some point, but maybe a bit later with PsyReform or just take the feat later... The master also way more familiar with familiars (:D) so he would probably rule out feats for Psicrystal and just will make them work just like familiars.


See above. CPsi, p105.

Yep. It does say the Linked powers have the manifesting time of the first power, and that the second power goes off at the beginning of the next round. It's one of the very few things that psionics can do that other forms of magic can't, and I rather like it.

That does seem useful and master actually doesn't mind if I take it and use it, it's just feels really weird. Like there's quicken, and then there's this... looks kinda like oversight.


Mostly, utility stuff, at least until higher levels. Then you'll want items to fortify your numbers (ability scores, AC, saves, initiative, power DCs), and things that give you more abilities and defenses (shirt of wraith stalking, shadow cloak from Drow of the Underdark, and lots of stuff from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)) and more manifestations/power points to spread around (+1 manifester arrows, dorjes, power stones).

Remember that items that enhance magic also enhance psionics, if at all feasable -- at least, according to magic/psionics transparency.

Thanks for the link. Manifester arrows probably won't work (is it that trick that allows to get like 250 extra PP holding a stack of arrows? :)) but I guess some manifester weapon might be handy. What psions use as weapons, by the way? I guess a spear and a crossbow...


Detect magic/psionics would work well with an artificer's monocle, especially with that feat mentioned above that gives detect psionics at will.

I like making alchemical items with psionic minor creation. It's also great for crafting masterwork tools and other items. 1 cubic foot per level is a huge amount of material to work with at later levels, especially for poisons.

What Craft(???) skills did you use to craft tools and other items? I mean, Minor Creation asks for an appropriate Craft check to craft "a complex item"...

[DrMartin]

Same goes for powers... I'm going to get 5 Level 1 powers and 4 Level 2 powers by level 4 and I need to get my constructs, creation, something offensive and probably defensive, right? So, with Detect Psionics/Identify out that makes a list like:
- Astral Construct
- Psi Minor Creation
- Energy Ray/Crystal Shard (really want to take the latter instead of the former...)
- Call to Mind - cause knowledges will be useful.
- Vigor? Synchronicity(for some mild cheese with Linked Power)? Inertial armor? Matter Agitation?

- Control Sound (Utility. I hope I'll be able to use it)
- Crystalstorm (Ability damage, no PR, no save(against damage) has the same fluff as Crystal Shard, so at least I'm going to get this)
- Energy Adaptation, Specified (Well, I do need some defense. Damp Power instead maybe?)
- Ego Whip? Share Pain? (Not sure about that without a pet rock) Psychoportive Shelter?


I'd pick Vigor and Ego Whip. Maybe a "boring" choice, but are really powerful powers. Ego Whip can make your GM hate you a bit, if you notice that you've been encountering only constructs and undeads for a while maybe ask him if you should reform it away :D

You could ask your DM if he'd allow a custom augment for Crystal Shard to make it pierce at least DR /magic, or allow you to make a Craft(sculpting) check while manifesting to change damage type to bludgeoning or slashing

For second level powers, try to find an Eternal Wand equivalent (Eternal Dorje?) for psychoportive shelter - you will typically need it 1/day, plus one extra use as emergency hideout. Your powers known are precious, take powers you think you'll cast often :D

I'm not a big fan of Crystalstorm - it's another single target ray, DC does not scale (and it's a Fort save to boot), and it gets very expensive very fast. If you want some other form of crystal-based face smashing, maybe consider Amethyst Burst (which is force damage so it sidesteps the DR issue, by the way).

In my experience blasting powers drain PP way to quickly to really rely on them, unless you are in a single big boss fight kind of situation and you can afford to go all out. Astral Constructs deal tons of damage/pp by comparison, as do energy walls, and even Gemstone Breath (if you have a psicrystal to share it with)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which sidebar? Because that would make manifesting from the stone completely pointless, since you can just use it normally (like a scroll) faster.

It's a pretty vicious nerf but not -quite- enough to render the option completely worthless, just mostly so.

When you manifest from the stone directly, you can't augment it and it uses the ML from the stone for ML related effects. Manifesting from the stone with your own PP switches it to your ML and lets you augment up to that point. You need a power that you can delay for a round in casting, that you don't need often enough to just pick it as a power known, and that needs to have ML and augmentation be relevant to make it worthwhile but there is a very narrow niche there, technically.

That said, I discarded that pointless nerf the moment I saw it, same as the 'only one astral construct at a time' nerf. Completely pointless.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For some reason I thought that Clerics don't get Detect Magic... As for using spellcraft to identify stuff - DM doesn't like that (I've seen the discussion with another player about that). Well, actually we could just spend money to do so, because it does indeed feel like a bit of a waste for a power slot. Thanks for the alchemy suggestion. I actually was thinking about creating more mundane items with Minor Creation, so I thought I would need some other craft skill to do so...Buy yourself an artificer's monocle, from the MIC, if you've got access to detect magic/psionics. Or at least tell the party's casters about it.


I understand that, but the thing is this setting (it's a custom one) was created before I asked for psionics, and nobody else was asking, and master doesn't usually use psionics, so, basically, he didn't include psionics almost at all, so, well, that's how it is and it would be hard to find any psionic characters...Then talk to him. Psionics is just another form of magic, and psions can easily take the place of wizards and sorcerers, so just ask if there are some sprinkled in amongs the other casters. He doesn't even have to change anything flavor-wise. Just replace "sorcerer" with "psion" on the NPC character sheets, and you can help him learn the relevant parts of the system if the mechanics ever come up.


That I understand, I just thought that Psionic Meditation is a must-have, because spending a full round to recover the focus is going to be cumbersome. So I kinda thought that it's a good idea to prioritize it.P.M. is a great feat, especially if you use metapsionics or other focus-related feats frequently.


I really do want to get those Elan feats, too, but I'm not human, so I just don't have enough feats :( Well, humans don't get Elan feats anyways... Boost construct also feels very good (don't know if it is really, because the summoning feats I've seen boost stats, not abilities, so it's kinda hard to compare)Unfortunately, psionics is really feat-intensive, so you'll have to make some hard decisions. Though I suppose you could try netting yourself extra feats by buying them. (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=3.5%20how%20to%20get%20extra%20feats)


Same goes for powers... I'm going to get 5 Level 1 powers and 4 Level 2 powers by level 4 and I need to get my constructs, creation, something offensive and probably defensive, right? So, with Detect Psionics/Identify out that makes a list like:
- Astral Construct
- Psi Minor Creation
- Energy Ray/Crystal Shard (really want to take the latter instead of the former...)
- Call to Mind - cause knowledges will be useful.
- Vigor? Synchronicity(for some mild cheese with Linked Power)? Inertial armor? Matter Agitation?

- Control Sound (Utility. I hope I'll be able to use it)
- Crystalstorm (Ability damage, no PR, no save(against damage) has the same fluff as Crystal Shard, so at least I'm going to get this)
- Energy Adaptation, Specified (Well, I do need some defense. Damp Power instead maybe?)
- Ego Whip? Share Pain? (Not sure about that without a pet rock) Psychoportive Shelter?

So hard to chose :(I agree with the others about crystalstorm. It's pretty worthless. I'd also see about skipping specified energy adaptation unless you can convince your DM to allow regular energy adaptation and energy conversion as augments (which they really ought to be; it makes no sense to have augmentation as such an elegant mechanic and then just ignore it when it should be used). Otherwise, use vigor and damp power until regular energy adaptation comes along, and then swap that out for energy conversion.


I know, and I do want to try them at some point, but maybe a bit later with PsyReform or just take the feat later... The master also way more familiar with familiars (:D) so he would probably rule out feats for Psicrystal and just will make them work just like familiars.That's really unfortunate. It kills some of the psicrystal's usefulness in a lot of areas, though they're still better than familiars. Still, if that's the case, stick your psicrystal in your pocket and never use it for anything but vigor/share pain and psionic focus, because it's too big of a vulnerability, otherwise.

Seriously, ask him if he would take a feat that could end up costing him tons of XP for no real reason that he would lose for the rest of the campaign if the creature ever dies.

There's a reason why people avoid familiars like the plague.


That does seem useful and master actually doesn't mind if I take it and use it, it's just feels really weird. Like there's quicken, and then there's this... looks kinda like oversight. Well, you don't get the benefits until the following round, so if you need something right now, you're SOL.


Thanks for the link. Manifester arrows probably won't work (is it that trick that allows to get like 250 extra PP holding a stack of arrows? :)) but I guess some manifester weapon might be handy. What psions use as weapons, by the way? I guess a spear and a crossbow... Nah. Unless you're using it for ammo, the manifester property is way, waaaaaay too expensive to bother with. Don't waste your money.


What Craft(???) skills did you use to craft tools and other items? I mean, Minor Creation asks for an appropriate Craft check to craft "a complex item"...You should be able to make just about everything you could want with Craft (Weaving), Craft (Smithing), Craft (Carving), and Craft (Alchemy).


I'd pick Vigor and Ego Whip. Maybe a "boring" choice, but are really powerful powers. Ego Whip can make your GM hate you a bit, if you notice that you've been encountering only constructs and undeads for a while maybe ask him if you should reform it away :D Agreed.


You could ask your DM if he'd allow a custom augment for Crystal Shard to make it pierce at least DR /magic, or allow you to make a Craft(sculpting) check while manifesting to change damage type to bludgeoning or slashingNot bad, though the augment shouldn't be very expensive. DR tends to not go very high, after all, and each power point spent is an average of only 3.5 damage. If the augment is more expensive than adding Empower Power, it's probably not worth it.


For second level powers, try to find an Eternal Wand equivalent (Eternal Dorje?) for psychoportive shelter - you will typically need it 1/day, plus one extra use as emergency hideout. Your powers known are precious, take powers you think you'll cast often :D You can make psionic equivalents of magic items, according to MIC. You just need the appropriate psionic feats and powers to approximate the magical equivalents.


I'm not a big fan of Crystalstorm - it's another single target ray, DC does not scale (and it's a Fort save to boot), and it gets very expensive very fast. If you want some other form of crystal-based face smashing, maybe consider Amethyst Burst (which is force damage so it sidesteps the DR issue, by the way). Very agreed, except on amethyst burst. The augmentation is too expensive, and it doesn't deal enough damage to bother with. I'd just use regular crystal and energy powers, since DR probably won't be a big deal most of the time.


In my experience blasting powers drain PP way to quickly to really rely on them, unless you are in a single big boss fight kind of situation and you can afford to go all out. Astral Constructs deal tons of damage/pp by comparison, as do energy walls, and even Gemstone Breath (if you have a psicrystal to share it with)Definitely agreed with this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want a trick that allows you to blast for tons of damage for cheap, check this out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19788955&postcount=274) It's not available until you get control body and solicit psicrystal, but it's still a thing. It should definitely help you overcome any DR or energy resistances you encounter.

[InvisibleBison]

If you want a trick that allows you to blast for tons of damage for cheap, check this out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19788955&postcount=274) It's not available until you get control body and solicit psicrystal, but it's still a thing. It should definitely help you overcome any DR or energy resistances you encounter.

That seems like it's based on a misreading of control body. The relevant text is:


If you force the subject to engage in combat, its attack bonus is equal to your base attack bonus + your Intelligence bonus, and its bonus on damage rolls is equal to your Intelligence bonus.

However, manifesting powers is a mental action, whereas control body only gives you physical control over the subject. Thus, you can't force the subject to manifest a power, which makes the trick not work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That seems like it's based on a misreading of control body. The relevant text is:

However, manifesting powers is a mental action, whereas control body only gives you physical control over the subject. Thus, you can't force the subject to manifest a power, which makes the trick not work.Yes, and I'm reading that you gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to your Intelligence bonus, which you just quoted. Saying "the text supports your statement, so it doesn't work" isn't terribly effective as an argument.

[InvisibleBison]

Yes, and I'm reading that you gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to your Intelligence bonus, which you just quoted. Saying "the text supports your statement, so it doesn't work" isn't terribly effective as an argument.

You seem to have misunderstood my argument. Control body lets you use the body you're controlling to make attacks, with a bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on attack and damage rolls. The bonus only applies to attacks that you force the body to make, and you can only force the body to make physical attacks. That's what the text I quoted says. Manifesting the power on yourself is an effective way to buff your physical combat capability, but it doesn't do anything to augment any powers you manifest, because manifesting powers is a purely mental action and is unaffected by control body.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I'd pick Vigor and Ego Whip. Maybe a "boring" choice, but are really powerful powers. Ego Whip can make your GM hate you a bit, if you notice that you've been encountering only constructs and undeads for a while maybe ask him if you should reform it away :D

You could ask your DM if he'd allow a custom augment for Crystal Shard to make it pierce at least DR /magic, or allow you to make a Craft(sculpting) check while manifesting to change damage type to bludgeoning or slashing

For second level powers, try to find an Eternal Wand equivalent (Eternal Dorje?) for psychoportive shelter - you will typically need it 1/day, plus one extra use as emergency hideout. Your powers known are precious, take powers you think you'll cast often :D

I'm not a big fan of Crystalstorm - it's another single target ray, DC does not scale (and it's a Fort save to boot), and it gets very expensive very fast. If you want some other form of crystal-based face smashing, maybe consider Amethyst Burst (which is force damage so it sidesteps the DR issue, by the way).

In my experience blasting powers drain PP way to quickly to really rely on them, unless you are in a single big boss fight kind of situation and you can afford to go all out. Astral Constructs deal tons of damage/pp by comparison, as do energy walls, and even Gemstone Breath (if you have a psicrystal to share it with)

Welp, I'm not going to rely on blasting, but I guess having some blasting powers is going to be useful, given that psionic blasting powers are usually pretty versatile. The thing is it seems that the best ones are Energy ray and Crystal Shard. I could probably take both of them, but that would mean I get 6 Level 1 powers and 3 level 2 powers, which doesn't seem to be a good idea... Or you think I would be better if I just take one of them and call it a day?

Maybe I'll just ignore that Energy Ray is probably better and take the Crystal Thingy since I like it so much :) It might bite me in the ass at some point, though... Master is not going to change the power or allow custom augments - like I said he's not very familiar with Psionics so he would avoid changes until he figures it out better or something.

Dorjes and other psi items are out of question until I make them myself and probably use PsyReform to get rid of powers I don't need anymore. Or the ones I bring with myself using my WBL.


Buy yourself an artificer's monocle, from the MIC, if you've got access to detect magic/psionics. Or at least tell the party's casters about it.

Then talk to him. Psionics is just another form of magic, and psions can easily take the place of wizards and sorcerers, so just ask if there are some sprinkled in amongs the other casters. He doesn't even have to change anything flavor-wise. Just replace "sorcerer" with "psion" on the NPC character sheets, and you can help him learn the relevant parts of the system if the mechanics ever come up.

Well, I already feel that I bugged him more than he would probably like. At first he didn't even want to include psionics at all saying that it would require to make huge changes to the setting and include new psi societies and stuff like that. Given I'm an Elan from some relatively remote continent he can now avoid that, but that's also means that I'm not going to see much psions and psi loot.


P.M. is a great feat, especially if you use metapsionics or other focus-related feats frequently.

Unfortunately, psionics is really feat-intensive, so you'll have to make some hard decisions. Though I suppose you could try netting yourself extra feats by buying them. (https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=3.5%20how%20to%20get%20extra%20feats)

Well, I'm not taking the pet rock feat, so at least I freed some of the slots, right? :) But I do get why people like humans so much...


I agree with the others about crystalstorm. It's pretty worthless. I'd also see about skipping specified energy adaptation unless you can convince your DM to allow regular energy adaptation and energy conversion as augments (which they really ought to be; it makes no sense to have augmentation as such an elegant mechanic and then just ignore it when it should be used). Otherwise, use vigor and damp power until regular energy adaptation comes along, and then swap that out for energy conversion.

Okay Crystalstorm is out, Energy Adaptation is going to be replaced with Damp Power, I'm taking Ego Whip, and I still have one more slot for Level 2 power. I don't know maybe pick a Level 1 power instead, but that's kinda silly.



That's really unfortunate. It kills some of the psicrystal's usefulness in a lot of areas, though they're still better than familiars. Still, if that's the case, stick your psicrystal in your pocket and never use it for anything but vigor/share pain and psionic focus, because it's too big of a vulnerability, otherwise.

Seriously, ask him if he would take a feat that could end up costing him tons of XP for no real reason that he would lose for the rest of the campaign if the creature ever dies.

There's a reason why people avoid familiars like the plague.

Well when he plays Wizards he kinda enjoys his ravens so, I guess he could :)
People also often suggest to pick a familiar for Duskblades...


Well, you don't get the benefits until the following round, so if you need something right now, you're SOL.

Well, makes sense. Still quicken is quite expensive...


Nah. Unless you're using it for ammo, the manifester property is way, waaaaaay too expensive to bother with. Don't waste your money.

Okay!


You should be able to make just about everything you could want with Craft (Weaving), Craft (Smithing), Craft (Carving), and Craft (Alchemy).

That's four craft skills, though... Should I take all of them in addition to Sculpture? Also, Smithing is probably not going to help with stuff like Minor Creation, because that's plant matter only.

[Troacctid]

Detect Hostile Intent. Best part of a 9th level spell, and it's only a 2nd level power.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"Hey, DM. You know how you have all these casters everywhere? Some of them use psionics for their spellcasting." Done!

Seriously, that's all it takes. He's making this waaaay harder than it should be.

And you should be able to use Craft (Sculpting) or Craft (Carving), since the only difference is the name.

[DrMartin]

I get OP's desire to thread carefully very well. It took me about 10 years to finally get my DM to let me play a psion in a game, and I was incredibly careful not to do anything too weird. One example: I didn't pick any power to bend the action economy, picking up quicken power instead since that was something that everybody at the table was already familiar with.

It also begun with my character being the only psionicist in the setting. But that grew kind of more relaxed as we played on and everyone (dm included) got more familiar with it, and when we got to level 10 or so and we got access to Plane Shift we found a Sigil with psionics at every other corner.

The whole "experiment" worked out really well, and psionics are now a staple at our table.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The bonus only applies to attacks that you force the body to make, and you can only force the body to make physical attacks. That's what the text I quoted says.Does it? Because I don't see that part.


Manifesting the power on yourself is an effective way to buff your physical combat capability, but it doesn't do anything to augment any powers you manifest, because manifesting powers is a purely mental action and is unaffected by control body.Could you highlight that part for me, please, because I'm having a problem finding where it says that.

[InvisibleBison]

Does it? Because I don't see that part.

Could you highlight that part for me, please, because I'm having a problem finding where it says that.

The key bit (which I probably should have quoted before) is this:


You cannot force the subject to manifest powers, cast spells, or use any special ability that is not a function of just its body movements.

The bit I quoted before says the Int bonus to attack and damage clause only applies when using the power to force the subject to do something. You cannot use control body to force the subject to manifest a power, so if he does he doesn't get the bonus.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I get OP's desire to thread carefully very well. It took me about 10 years to finally get my DM to let me play a psion in a game, and I was incredibly careful not to do anything too weird. One example: I didn't pick any power to bend the action economy, picking up quicken power instead since that was something that everybody at the table was already familiar with.

It also begun with my character being the only psionicist in the setting. But that grew kind of more relaxed as we played on and everyone (dm included) got more familiar with it, and when we got to level 10 or so and we got access to Plane Shift we found a Sigil with psionics at every other corner.

The whole "experiment" worked out really well, and psionics are now a staple at our table.

Yup, I don't wanna rush it, because well, it's only me who wants psionics in the game, and at first master didn't want to allow it at all. So, that's why I'm concerned about "cheese" - Linked Power Synchronicity might piss master off, and even instant (well okay, delayed by one round) PsiReform in the middle of the combat would feel like a cheat. However, it seems to me that action economy cheese is going to burn PP a lot.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Soo, we had our first session. We actually started at level 5 and there are three of us - Psion:Shaper (me), Rogue and a Duskblade 1/Cleric of Boccob 4 (A bit of a weird build, but there's roleplaying reasons for that). The game started in a bit of hurry, and I ended with this power selection:

Level 1:
Astral Construct(A)
Psionic Minor Creation
Energy Ray(A)
Call to Mind
Entangling Ectoplasm

Level 2:
Ego Whip
Detect Hostile Intent
Control Sound
Damp Power

Level 3:
Energy Wall
Time Hop

Equipment (This selection was a bit rushed, so I didn't have enough time to think it through):
Mithral Chain Shirt +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (Total AC - 18)
Handy Haversack
Crossbow, Light, mwk
Dagger, Mundane Crystal (for fluff mostly)
Healing Belt

+ a horse and some other minor adventuring gear.

Yes. I didn't take Vigor, which probably was a mistake, but I hoped that
1) Our cleric would take a tanky role and I would use constructs for that too.
2) I decided that some debuffs like Entangling Ectoplasm would be re-ealy handy and I really wanted to take it

Well, the first quest is quite simple - we need to get rid of some troll that endangers a road or something. After some investigation, dialogues with NPCs and checks regarding trolls, we've learned that
1) Nobody actually seen the troll, but people think that the "symptoms" of the attacks on the caravans do resemble trolls.
2) Trolls are hard to kill, they are reckless and vulnerable to fire.

I wasn't quite worried, since I have Ego Whip, and two blasting powers that could deal fire damage as well as astral constructs to keep it busy. Our cleric also prepared some stuff that could've helped against trolls. Well, after a short trip, we entered the suspicious area, and I manifested Detect Hostile Intent. Sure, if a troll is within 30ft of me it's already a bad thing, but if I do not know about it yet, that's even worse. Well, after some fiddling around we encountered the thing which turned to be an Ettin. And I didn't detect it because it, well, was about 60 feet away, so we've got a surprise round and stuff. In the end it ended up smacking me and the cleric for quite a lot of damage each (half HP from me), and Detect Hostile Intent actually indicated not one, but two hostile creatures (oh, and I failed my know check to learn about the creature).
I took a 5-ft step and manifested Ego Whip linked to a small Astral Construct (Buff, Improved Natural Attack). But since this thing (well, I guess it's a houserule, but probably a reasonable one) actually has two minds, it seemed to affect only one of them, so I gave up on this idea. AC served as a nice meatshield for several rounds while rogue was hitting it with sneak attack bolts. Next, I manifested Entangling Ectoplasm and the Cleric hit it with the Ray of Enfeeblement. Then I tried to do some blasting, but augmented Energy Ray hit only for 16 (Seriously, it's 5d6+5... rogue did 14 damage with his crossbow a round earlier (4d6)). When the creature finally destroyed my AC (Which by the way looked like a small Ettin :)) I finished it off with a circular Energy Wall:Fire (which then fried the remains because it's not actually dismissable and dealt about 10d6+10 damage in total).

Well, that was quite tough. Blasting indeed seems to be a... sub-optimal solution. I probably should have manifested the wall earlier and have it walk around it while party does some useful stuff. Maybe manifest a full-blown AC and chase it or even try to bullrush it into the wall. Shouldn't have used Ego Whip against it since DM hinted that it has two minds. I spent 21PP total (Although, Detect Hostile Intent is still up) which doesn't make me quite happy, but this seems to be a tough encounter for such a small group, and since our cleric is not as tanky as I thought he would, I just had to try bringing it down faster.

[Troacctid]

Do note that while Detect Hostile Intent only pings the hostile creatures at 30 feet, it still negates surprise from any distance, so you shouldn't have been surprised here.

[Telok]

I actually got to play a psion from 2 to 15, like you I was the first person in the group to ask for psionics.

What I've learned over the years:

Medium sized and bigger astral constructs are a worth while use actions and power. Even with the full round manifesting time and CPsi idiocy they're good. Scale your cheese to the campaign, pulling out 4 per round with manifester level boosts is a good way to attract a nerf bat.

Force screen and energy ray at low levels. You can psychic reformation them out when SR becomes more of an issue than DR and you can splurge on ML 3 dijories of force screen.

Ectoplasmic cocoon is hilarious. And really useful when fighting harpies near cliffs. There's also a power that teleports enemy equipment to you, barbarians are not scary when they are unarmed.

Psionic body and autohypnosis are great. You can also take a level of fighter, crusader, psychic warrior, or anything with armor proficencies without suffering like an arcane caster. The psion class is powerful enough that the lost manifester level isn't a big deal.

Eventually you will want overchannel. You don't need it, or the feat that lets you focus as a move action, but it's really nice at higher levels. Expanded knowledge is good, but talk to your DM before using psychic churgery.

Ectoplasmic form and ectoplasmic shambler turned out to be crap. But dispel psionics never goes out of style.

Limit the number of attack powers that you have. About three damage and three save-or-lose was a good balance for me at high levels, everything else was defense and utility.

Be careful with the creation powers. Remember that the DM has psion NPCs with that power too.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ectoplasmic form and ectoplasmic shambler turned out to be crap. But dispel psionics never goes out of style.Ectoplasmic shambler is kind of weird. It's basically like a somewhat damaging fog cloud spell that you can control. It blocks vision like the aforementioned cloud and also forces two Concentration checks on anyone casting spells or manifesting powers in its area. The thing you'll want to do is manifest several of them in the same overlapping area to deal more (nigh irresistible) damage and to force more Concentration checks to as many foes as possible. If you need lots of irresistible damage and fast, use action economy breakers such as temporal acceleration followed by Linked Power'd Twin Power'd synchronicities to throw out as many overlapping shamblers as possible. They'll eat up your enemies' hp pretty damned quick, and the only real ways to resist the onslaught are tons of temp hp or hardness out the wazoo, and immunity to death from damage. Granted, there are ways to do all of those at higher levels without issue, but since direct damage is all that most of the highest level monsters aren't immune to, hitting epic and near-epic critters with damage they can't avoid is a good way to ruin their day.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Do note that while Detect Hostile Intent only pings the hostile creatures at 30 feet, it still negates surprise from any distance, so you shouldn't have been surprised here.
I noticed that, but it makes not too much sense since from the description, my detection field has only 30ft radius, so I decided to not argue.

I actually got to play a psion from 2 to 15, like you I was the first person in the group to ask for psionics.

What I've learned over the years:

Medium sized and bigger astral constructs are a worth while use actions and power. Even with the full round manifesting time and CPsi idiocy they're good. Scale your cheese to the campaign, pulling out 4 per round with manifester level boosts is a good way to attract a nerf bat.

Force screen and energy ray at low levels. You can psychic reformation them out when SR becomes more of an issue than DR and you can splurge on ML 3 dijories of force screen.

Ectoplasmic cocoon is hilarious. And really useful when fighting harpies near cliffs. There's also a power that teleports enemy equipment to you, barbarians are not scary when they are unarmed.

Psionic body and autohypnosis are great. You can also take a level of fighter, crusader, psychic warrior, or anything with armor proficencies without suffering like an arcane caster. The psion class is powerful enough that the lost manifester level isn't a big deal.

Eventually you will want overchannel. You don't need it, or the feat that lets you focus as a move action, but it's really nice at higher levels. Expanded knowledge is good, but talk to your DM before using psychic churgery.

Ectoplasmic form and ectoplasmic shambler turned out to be crap. But dispel psionics never goes out of style.

Limit the number of attack powers that you have. About three damage and three save-or-lose was a good balance for me at high levels, everything else was defense and utility.

Be careful with the creation powers. Remember that the DM has psion NPCs with that power too.
Thanks for the advice! I plan to get Ectoplasmic Cocoon and Dispel Psionics at level 5, but I'm not quite sure yet - so many good powers to chose from and I basically only can get four... And yea, I'm trying to not get too much attack powers, basically I have one single-target damaging power, one AoE power, and Ego Whip. Well, and Astral Construct, but it's like... everything in one package.

As for autohypsnosis, I actually spent two skill points on it to be able to make checks. With concentration synergy I now have +5 on autohypnosis checks so I can at least stabilize more effectively than usual and I can use Memorize ability if I have enough time (can I take 10 on autohypnosis?)

[DrMartin]

Ectoplasmic Cocoon is crazy powerful, but i would still pick Touchsight as a 4th pick for your 3rd level powers. It's an amazing detection power, and something that only psions get. Last a decent amount of time and you can augment the radius. Never worry about spot checks again

re: overlapping ectopasmic shambler: can you do that? wouldn't the rules about more instances of the same power affecting the same area prevent the damage from multiple shamblers to stack?

Personally I had similar experiences with it as Telok (played a shaper from 1 to 13) and in that campaign i remember using it only twice: once followed by a dome-shaped wall of ectoplasm to isolate a bunch of mooks, and another time we were running from an army and a couple of manifestations helped break line of sight/wreak havoc. In both occasions it was more a "that's nice i guess" than "i sure am glad i picked this power!"

Staples in combat were astral constructs, energy walls, walls of ectoplasm and (when my pp-pool grew to be large enough) crystal shards. I picked Hail of Crystals as a 5th level power (because it's shaper only, so it must be cool, hu?) and i think i never had to use it.

special mention to Burrowing Power, it plays so well with touchsight and putting up walls and barriers. (edit as it does not work like i thought it would :D)

[Kuu Lightwing]

Ectoplasmic Cocoon is crazy powerful, but i would still pick Touchsight as a 4th pick for your 3rd level powers. It's an amazing detection power, and something that only psions get. Last a decent amount of time and you can augment the radius. Never worry about spot checks again

Yea, that's one power I do really want to get as well. There's some sort of temptation to blow most of my feats on Expanded Knowledge, but I guess that's not the best idea. :)
Well, at least at level 7 I'll get Psy Reform, so I could try all the cool toys eventually and even maybe use it to adapt to some things. Not too often, though


Staples in combat were astral constructs, energy walls, walls of ectoplasm and (when my pp-pool grew to be large enough) crystal shards. I picked Hail of Crystals as a 5th level power (because it's shaper only, so it must be cool, hu?) and i think i never had to use it.

By the way, that's another thing I wanted to ask. Since I don't have enough experience with stuff like that, what's the best way to use Energy Walls?


special mention to Burrowing Power, it plays so well with touchsight and putting up walls and barriers.
That's another thing I'm looking forward to get, but does it play well with touchsight? I mean, it requires to have a line of effect to the creature, so the walls and obstacles would block it as well as natural vision.

I also put only one rank in Psicraft, so, I won't be able to use it until level 7 when I catch up with ranks probably.

[DrMartin]

That's another thing I'm looking forward to get, but does it play well with touchsight? I mean, it requires to have a line of effect to the creature, so the walls and obstacles would block it as well as natural vision.


After your comment I re-read the feat and I guess we were applying the line "manifest against a target" in quite a liberal way :) my character would go around with a burrowing touchsight and we had the perception granted by the power extend through barriers up to a certain thickness, depending on the psicraft roll. So yeah, not really rules-legal i guess. I'll edit my comment above

Still, remains a good feat, for instance to put a wall of energy inside a wall of ectoplasm, or to shred foes you've cocooned

[Kuu Lightwing]

After your comment I re-read the feat and I guess we were applying the line "manifest against a target" in quite a liberal way :) my character would go around with a burrowing touchsight and we had the perception granted by the power extend through barriers up to a certain thickness, depending on the psicraft roll. So yeah, not really rules-legal i guess. I'll edit my comment above

Still, remains a good feat, for instance to put a wall of energy inside a wall of ectoplasm, or to shred foes you've cocooned

Hehe, but that requires to get cocoon to use both of them :) But yeah, it still looks interesting. Maybe I'll take it at level 6 or maybe later.

By the way, is it a good idea to get more level 3 powers (for example get Psy Reform and Cocoon at level 7) instead of always getting maximum level available?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

re: overlapping ectopasmic shambler: can you do that? wouldn't the rules about more instances of the same power affecting the same area prevent the damage from multiple shamblers to stack? Those are the rules for "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes." Unless the DM says otherwise, damage and other non-penalty problems should stack.

[DrMartin]

I would say generally no, unless there's a power you're really dying to get. Still probably not worth it, 4th level powers are really good as well :D

gently probe your DM about your chances of paying for psychic chirurgery once planar travel opens up and you potentially stop being the only psionicist in the whole world, buying a couple of low level powers is not really expensive if that option is on the table.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

gently probe your DM about your chances of paying for psychic chirurgery once planar travel opens up and you potentially stop being the only psionicist in the whole world, buying a couple of low level powers is not really expensive if that option is on the table.Also greater teleport.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I would say generally no, unless there's a power you're really dying to get. Still probably not worth it, 4th level powers are really good as well :D

gently probe your DM about your chances of paying for psychic chirurgery once planar travel opens up and you potentially stop being the only psionicist in the whole world, buying a couple of low level powers is not really expensive if that option is on the table.

Fair enough. I also want to actually get Clairvoyant Sense because it looks really, really useful. Of course it being Seer only makes it either EK target or independent research subject, but it really seems to be good. Our cleric will have Clairaudience/Clairvoyance as a domain spell soon, but Clairvoyant sense seems superior to that (1 standard action casting time, no range restriction)

As for other psionicists - I'll try that, but not until I get some teleportation or planar travel powers. DM also hinted that some wizard people might get interested in my character since they won't understand what the hell is going on with this weird "sorcerer" once they roll a spellcraft check or two.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Sorry for bumping it, no advice regarding using Energy Wall and getting Clairvoyant Sense?

[DrMartin]

I think you got it right with clairvoyant sense, it is an excellent power (as a great number of Seer-only power are, by the way). In a setting with psionics abundance i wouldn't say it's EK-worthy, as you can eventually grab the psionatrix of it, or have it in permanent wand form. In your case i think it really depends on the direction the campaign is going, and on how the GM reacts to divinations in general. It can be frustrating to invest your character resources on it if every remotely important place to the narrative is plot-shielded against it, for instance.

For energy wall I don't have a lot of general tips, as it is a power with a strong element of battlefield control to it and as such depends a lot on the battlefield you will be presented with. It shines most against multiple opponent and with pre-existing elements in the battlefield you can use to your advantage (foes behind cover, chokepoints, your cleric buddy making an obstacle course with stone shape, etc...)

just remember that Astral Constructs are the definition of expendable and have an excellent bonus to grapple and combat maneuvers in general, so granting them one or more among improved trip, improved bullrush and (later) improved grapple gives you more options to put your foes in the hurt zone of the energy walls. If your construct has to share the pain, so be it, you can always make a new one

[Kuu Lightwing]

I think you got it right with clairvoyant sense, it is an excellent power (as a great number of Seer-only power are, by the way). In a setting with psionics abundance i wouldn't say it's EK-worthy, as you can eventually grab the psionatrix of it, or have it in permanent wand form. In your case i think it really depends on the direction the campaign is going, and on how the GM reacts to divinations in general. It can be frustrating to invest your character resources on it if every remotely important place to the narrative is plot-shielded against it, for instance.

Read about psionatrixes... That's a weird thing... Is it like... at-will Clairvoyant Sense? I didn't notice the mention that I need to manifest it using my own PP. But anyways, I would need to find a Seer who could make it for me and that's not very likely to happen.


For energy wall I don't have a lot of general tips, as it is a power with a strong element of battlefield control to it and as such depends a lot on the battlefield you will be presented with. It shines most against multiple opponent and with pre-existing elements in the battlefield you can use to your advantage (foes behind cover, chokepoints, your cleric buddy making an obstacle course with stone shape, etc...)

Well, I'll look into it next time we'll be having a battle. We just had another session and it was mostly social so I mostly used my PP on Call to Mind rerolls, I'll guess combat tactics and Energy Walls are going to wait until the next time. :)

just remember that Astral Constructs are the definition of expendable and have an excellent bonus to grapple and combat maneuvers in general, so granting them one or more among improved trip, improved bullrush and (later) improved grapple gives you more options to put your foes in the hurt zone of the energy walls. If your construct has to share the pain, so be it, you can always make a new one

Yea, I actually though about that already. Give a construct Improved Bull Rush and Energy Resistance (whatever I make a wall off) and just push the enemy inside the wall repeatedly. Resistance won't reduce all the damage to zero, but it would make the construct last longer.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Energy wall pairs really well with energy conversion, when you eventually get it. Practically all-day blasting for just a few power points. Rev up E.C., sit in the campfire, have an underling using fiery burst or another reserve feat, manifest a few other duration-based energy powers, and follow up with energy wall to charge your reserve up with various energy types. Then proceed to blast away. Check frickin' laser beams (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1187.0) for more optimization for it.

[Kuu Lightwing]

Energy wall pairs really well with energy conversion, when you eventually get it. Practically all-day blasting for just a few power points. Rev up E.C., sit in the campfire, have an underling using fiery burst or another reserve feat, manifest a few other duration-based energy powers, and follow up with energy wall to charge your reserve up with various energy types. Then proceed to blast away. Check frickin' laser beams (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1187.0) for more optimization for it.

I've read about that trick, but it's a pretty high-level one, so I'm not going to make any use of it any time soon.

[DrMartin]

Read about psionatrixes... That's a weird thing... Is it like... at-will Clairvoyant Sense? I didn't notice the mention that I need to manifest it using my own PP. But anyways, I would need to find a Seer who could make it for me and that's not very likely to happen.


You can use each of the "advanced" (the ones from Cpsi), psionatrix once per day, but you can have multiple copies of the same one. All of these require at least one of the "basic" ones (the ones from XPH) in the stack in order to work.

[Kuu Lightwing]

You can use each of the "advanced" (the ones from Cpsi), psionatrix once per day, but you can have multiple copies of the same one. All of these require at least one of the "basic" ones (the ones from XPH) in the stack in order to work.

Oh, I see. I was just joking recently about how it's useful to map a dungeon or something from like... whatever distance with this power. Let's say... If Dio gets Clairvoyant Sense at level 6, he would have 49pp and could use it 16 times a day. So, party just can visit the entrance to the dungeon or cave once, Dio could remember it and just go to whatever safe place he likes and start manifesting it examining each room of the dungeon starting with the entrance. Basically it's possible to map the entire dungeon like that...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A third eye: sense grants clairvoyant sense an unlimited number of times per day. Only 24,000 gp.

[Kuu Lightwing]

A third eye: sense grants clairvoyant sense an unlimited number of times per day. Only 24,000 gp.

Yup, that's actually feels pretty strong. I mean, at will, unlimited range, sensor thingy? I'm actually wondering if they just forgot to put range limitation like with Clairvoyance/Clairaudience...
But anyways, 24,000 is kinda hard to get for 5th or 6th level party. :) I mean, it's not that hard, but I think party would prefer to spend money on different stuff.