Belkar, and Objective Alignments

[Draz74]

Well, in 468, we see Belkar again doing the right thing, supposedly for all the wrong reasons. This makes, what, the fourth or fifth time in 50 strips?

How long can this go on, in a system with Objective Alignments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html), before it starts to really change his character?

I mean, I think even Belkar sincerely believes he is doing these good deeds solely for selfish reasons. Mostly. His conversation with the two shoulder fiends - no angel to be found - proves that.

But it's always possible that, subconsciously, he is learning something about having a conscience. That he has good reasons as well as bad reasons for his good deeds, even if he blocks them out of his mind.

... and even if he doesn't, the Alignment System doesn't care, as long as he's doing good deeds. I wonder what will happen to his self-esteem if he someday wakes up and finds out he's shifted to Chaotic Neutral?

[truemane]

Objective Alignments don't necessarily mean that they are tied only to act and not at all to intent. It just means that Evil and Good are real entities, as real as Law and Chaos, and are not dependant on upbringing or culture or anything like that.

But Intent has always been a part of the Alignemtn system. They are defined primarily as worldviews, which informs Intent far more than it informs actions.

Belkar, because he is acting selfishly and for his own twisted reasons, is still Evil, and is in no danger of turning Neutral or good just because his vicious little needs happen to coincide with Haley's.

[Morty]

Belkar w.o.n.'t change alignment. His evil deed waaaay outweight those non-evil. And, as you said, he's doing right thing for wrong reasons, making them even more irrelevant.

[factotum]

I'm pretty sure that Belkar has done plenty enough evil in his life that a few random good deeds right now is not going to affect him. Also, even in a system where Good and Evil are objective concepts, you have to be doing them for the right reasons--so Belkar saving Hinjo from GLG was not a Good act because he was doing it for the sole purpose of getting the Mark of Justice removed, thus allowing him "a lifetime of unfettered killing". Similarly, rescuing Roy is not technically a good act because he's being forced into doing it by the Mark of Justice.

[Mystyco]

well, it may be a good thing afterall, think of miko scanning him...oh right, she's dead and won't come back :P
bha, i don't see belkar as a neutral character...remember he's a "sexy shoeless god of war" xD

[Spiryt]

Uhm, sorry even if D&D alignment is little strange, you can't accidentaly become different kind of person :smallconfused:
What sane DM will interpret rules that way?

[the mysterian]

his actions are fueled by his love of murder and his own life

[Oxymoron]

Why do people always insist on Belkar and Thog changing their alignment to good or neutral? Would that somehow make them more funny? Would it somehow improve them as characters? I don`t see it, do you?

[chibibar]

the thing is this.. if it were up to me (as a DM) I would ask.. would this character still commits the same act under different circumstances....

In this case, Would Belkar still go get Roy if he didn't have the mark of justice?

[Deuce]

I kind of see Belkar going through these moral gymnastics in order to justify his doing "good" things even though he's evil, as kind of a twist on some of the ethical spin that so many "good' characters have to exercise when they do something that's evil (but it's for a good cause :smallfurious: ).

[holywhippet]

As far as I'm concerned, Belkar is still acting well within his CE alignment. A CE person will always act with their own personal wants and needs as priority #1. In this case, he's acting to recover Roy because his mark will trigger if he moves too far away from him. In theory he could stay in the city and keep killing hobgoblins but even he would be overwhelmed eventually.

Every other time he's acted in a remotely good manner it's been for selfish reasons. Like when he agreed to help rescue that farmer - he did it because he liked the sound that dead ogres make when they hit the ground.

[BlythraB]

I think Draz actually has a pretty good point-- not just because of the apparently increasing number of Belkar's good deeds, but because there's a lot of logic in it. Think about it; there's no way Mr. Burlew would have character develoment in all the other characters, including some of the ones that he could get by without changing, and not do anything with Belkar besides make him comic relief. It's a comic strip, we don't need comic relief! However, as it is also an ongoing story with a complex plot, we DO need the characters to grow and change. That's my highly opinionated thought, anyway!

[Querzis]

CE character are the most selfish character ever. That means they can murder just for fun or for the hell of it, which is something NE or LE character usually dont do, and that they have the greatest potential of senseless destruction. But that also means they can do good things if it help them, if its more convenient for them or if its just more fun then doing evil things. While NE and LE character are dedicated to evil, CE character are just dedicated to themselves. Thog and Belkar are chaotic, which means they act on a whim. Now sometimes that whim is to help the good guys because of selfish reasons but that doesnt change the fact that they killed lots of people for fun before and will do it again if they feel like it.

[jeffh]

I think Draz actually has a pretty good point-- not just because of the apparently increasing number of Belkar's good deeds, but because there's a lot of logic in it. Think about it; there's no way Mr. Burlew would have character develoment in all the other characters, including some of the ones that he could get by without changing, and not do anything with Belkar besides make him comic relief. It's a comic strip, we don't need comic relief! However, as it is also an ongoing story with a complex plot, we DO need the characters to grow and change. That's my highly opinionated thought, anyway!

That doesn't mean his alignment is likely to change. He's still spent most of the last few dozen strips killing sentient creatures for the sheer joy of it (and anyone who thinks alignment doesn't involve intent doesn't seem to be reading the same rulebooks I am...).