Belkar's Mark - does it exist?

[Aahz]

Sorry if this has already been done to death, but in discussions for #468 people seem to think that the Mark Of Justice is real. I had always assumed that it was completely made up to keep Belkar in line. It will be hilarious if eventually Belkar finds out that he missed out on a bunch of killing because of a nonexistent Mark...

Is there any evidence that the MoJ actually exists? As evidence that it does not, I submit that it's Belkar, not Haley or anyone else, who remembers that he can't go more than a mile from Roy's body. The others were perfectly willing to let him head to the docks, which indicates that they've forgotten that rule of the Mark. If they knew the Mark was real, they would likely be as worried about Belkar violating it as he is.

[Quietus]

Comic #295. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)

It shows up on his forehead when V hits him with Detect Magic.

[Baalzebub]

There, Quietus already said it. Detect magic. Poor Belkar, he can't move more than a mile away of a dead body. He needs Roy Body

[Aahz]

Well, ok, so it's magical...it could be a magical invisible temporary tattoo. :smallwink: That would show up as a blue glow on his forehead when V casts Detect Magic, right?

[Recursive]

If they knew the Mark was real, they would likely be as worried about Belkar violating it as he is.
If they knew it was false, then they would come clean by now -- either during the battle, so that Belkar could fight on the walls, or now to prevent him from making unnecessary and potentially dangerous changes to Hayley's plan.

Hinjo might try to keep up the fiction even now, if he were in a stubbornly Lawful mood, but none of the others would.

[Storm Bringer]

this is, of course, assuming they knew it was a fake if it was. the only three people who do know for certian wether it is or not are:

the wizard/cleric who cast it (most likey dead)
Roy (dead)
Shojo (dead)

It's entirely possible that its a fake and no one knows it is.

Roy may have just not told Belkar it was a fake when Miko ran to kill him, maybe thinking "i need the control over him more than i need Niko dead."

p.s. for the record, I'm playing devils advocate, and i do think the mark is real.

[Goofy]

Well, it's possible only Hinjo (and V if he could tell from his detect magic whether it were real) know for sure, though I doubt Hinjo would sit on it because there's no point risking Haley and Belkar dragging Roy's body back when it would be far easier and safer to just stuff it in a bag of holding. He wouldn't risk Haley just to lie to Belkar.

[TheAlmightyOne]

Yes. It does exist. Question answered

[factotum]

Roy may have just not told Belkar it was a fake when Miko ran to kill him, maybe thinking "i need the control over him more than i need Niko dead."


Roy is Lawful Good. Miko was running toward Belkar with the obvious intention of killing him. If the Mark were fake, Roy would have said so--he would not have allowed Belkar to die just because he wanted some sort of control over him, since that act would not be Good and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be all that Lawful either.

[Snake-Aes]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneMark.htm


The nature of detect magic doesn't let you know WHAT spell is there.

[Quikngruvn]

The nature of detect magic doesn't let you know WHAT spell is there.

True, but with three rounds of concentration and a successful Spellcraft roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm), a wizard can determine the school of magic that a particular aura bears. And how many other Necromantic spells would paladins use?

I think the Mark does exist, but I'm not ruling out completely Shojo inscribing a fake Mark and lying to, well, everyone. I just can't figure out what his motivation for that would be.

[David Argall]

The chance of it being fake is small enough to ignore. As noted, there seems to be no serious motive to put on a fake. I suppose Shojo could have been told by whatever caster was on duty that the spell was not available today, just the brand X immitation, and he went with the cheap stuff, but Belkar had better be thinking it's real.

[Cade Shadow]

The chance of it being fake is small enough to ignore. As noted, there seems to be no serious motive to put on a fake. I suppose Shojo could have been told by whatever caster was on duty that the spell was not available today, just the brand X immitation, and he went with the cheap stuff, but Belkar had better be thinking it's real.

I would like to make the point that arcane mark glows and becomes visible under detect magic and while Mark of justice does not.

Perhaps Shojo's reason would be that he had no one who he could trust to cast the real mark of justice. Perhaps something like, no one high enough level, or the only person of high enough level is away/can't be used for some various reason.
Perhaps he wanted to make sure that Belkar learned his lesson, but wanted to make sure that it would not hamper him in a life-or-death situation (since, y'know Belkar's an adventurer n'all)

[SteveMB]

If the MoJ were a fake, you'd think Roy would have mentioned it when a really good time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) for that came up.

That said, the claim that Belkar would "get sicker and sicker" if the MoJ triggered seems a bit questionable. How (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html) much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) sicker (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html) could he possibly get, really? :smallwink:

[Cade Shadow]

If the MoJ were a fake, you'd think Roy would have mentioned it when a really good time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) for that came up.

That said, the claim that Belkar would "get sicker and sicker" if the MoJ triggered seems a bit questionable. How (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html) much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) sicker (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0358.html) could he possibly get, really? :smallwink:

I think they meant in the physical sense.

[Sage in the Playground]

Belkar is the type of guy to just FORGET about the mark, so wouldn't using a fake mrk be kind of reckless?

Belkar: DIE KOBOLD! Oh, wait, the mark!

*Nothing happens*

Belkar: Cool.

*Murderous rampage*

[Chronos]

Perhaps Shojo's reason would be that he had no one who he could trust to cast the real mark of justice. Perhaps something like, no one high enough level, or the only person of high enough level is away/can't be used for some various reason.
Perhaps he wanted to make sure that Belkar learned his lesson, but wanted to make sure that it would not hamper him in a life-or-death situation (since, y'know Belkar's an adventurer n'all)Shojo was the lord of a city with a disproportionately large number of clerics and paladins. There was no way that a fifth-level spell with no costly components was beyond his resources. And the types of life-or-death situations that Belkar's most likely to get involved in would generally involve someone else's life or death. I can't see someone like Shojo risking the possibility of unleashing Belkar upon the world.

There's also the matter that Arcane Mark is a wizard spell, and Mark of Justice is for clerics and paladins. So if Belkar or anyone else who was present could tell the class of the caster, they couldn't possibly be confused.

[the mysterian]

Comic #295. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)

It shows up on his forehead when V hits him with Detect Magic.

could have been just an invisible mark though, nothing special

[David Demola]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneMark.htm


The nature of detect magic doesn't let you know WHAT spell is there.

AND, as is stated in the newest comic...

Belkar is 3 miles away from Roy. Roy said that, according to the mark, if Belkar is more than a mile away from his position, then the little guy would become sicker and sicker until he couldn't hurt anyone

I think that the mark isn't real.

~Dave

[Gavin Sage]

Supposing Belkar's mark is not real is pure speculation. And as he does have a mark on his forehead, and we know Azure City has clerics capable of 5th level spells. There's no reason to go to all the trouble of faking when you can put the real thing on there. Shinjo was deceptive, but purposefully so. Faking the Mark would be very bad should Belkar (who kills for fun nevermind when slighted) find out and for no tangible benefit.

[the mysterian]

i wouldnt put it past shojo to fake it.

[Aethir]

AND, as is stated in the newest comic...

Belkar is 3 miles away from Roy. Roy said that, according to the mark, if Belkar is more than a mile away from his position, then the little guy would become sicker and sicker until he couldn't hurt anyone

I think that the mark isn't real.

~Dave

The latest comic stated that Roy was 3 miles from the docks, not their current location.

[Gavin Sage]

i wouldnt put it past shojo to fake it.

Why is the question not if Shojo was capable. There is no tangible benefit to faking the mark, especially since the only alternative suggested is from a completely different sphere. Shojo was deceptive out of nessecity, when he lied he had reason to (note CG not CN) and so what would be the reason to simply fake a restraint on a known murderer.

[the mysterian]

humor purposes. god everybody here takes everything so seriously >_>

[evileeyore]

AND, as is stated in the newest comic...

Belkar is 3 miles away from Roy. Roy said that, according to the mark, if Belkar is more than a mile away from his position, then the little guy would become sicker and sicker until he couldn't hurt anyone

I think that the mark isn't real.

~DaveUmm... no.
The Docks are three miles away from Roy. Right now they are within a mile of Roy.

[Czarzhan]

Although I speculated the mark was fake in the other thread (from the previous, not the current comic), my main concern was that the curse would unravel now that a strong component of it (i.e. Roy) is dead. I just want someone to pop another Detect Magic on Belkar to see if it's still there.

[MagMagus]

Furthermore, do we even know what the mark does?

[holywhippet]

Although I speculated the mark was fake in the other thread (from the previous, not the current comic), my main concern was that the curse would unravel now that a strong component of it (i.e. Roy) is dead. I just want someone to pop another Detect Magic on Belkar to see if it's still there.

My personal thought was that it might only partly unravel - ie. the part about his proximity from Roy. From a literal point of view - where is Roy now? Most of his body is lying on the ground outside of the city. Some of his body is inside of the carrion birds who've been snacking on him (who might still be there). But his soul has probably left his body and is visiting some other plane of existence at the moment. So what exactly does the mark work on?

[Pvednes]

Furthermore, do we even know what the mark does?

It's in the PHB.

[mockingbyrd7]

It's in the PHB.

And it's here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html

[Totally Guy]

I think that the mark is real.

I also think that *eventually* we will find out what the trigger command word is that would (/will) set it off. And for us to find that out, Roy needs to come back to life.

I could be wrong but I say Roy's ressurection is assured by the presence and validity of the mark.

[Ampersand]

Roy is Lawful Good. Miko was running toward Belkar with the obvious intention of killing him. If the Mark were fake, Roy would have said so--he would not have allowed Belkar to die just because he wanted some sort of control over him, since that act would not be Good and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be all that Lawful either.

I fail to see your reasoning...how can any plan or action that involves Belkar's death not be inherently Good?

[NerfTW]

Because shockingly, good guys don't normally kill defenseless prisoners. :smallwink:

[teratorn]

I fail to see your reasoning...how can any plan or action that involves Belkar's death not be inherently Good?
My feelings exactly but sort of anathema in this forum. The halfling should be killed and then resurrected so he could be killed again, with the process repeated until his innocent's death toll was matched.

About what is or isn't Roy. Well, Eugene's tomb still has his name even if they know his spirit is chasing women on a different plane, so in the OOTS universe the body is part of the individual's identity. I think any portion of the body would qualify.

[Thanatos 51-50]

And it's here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html
Just to round everything out, heres the online SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm

[Pakka]

I'm of the opinon that the mark is really well a magical mark, but not the MOJ

I suspect that someone put a wizards mark on his forhead, and just said poof there you go. Under Detect Magic it would show up so there is really something there.

I believe that Belkar actually knows that the mark isn't real, as I could see him testing it in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html on the last frame, I could see him just checking.. :)

And with Belkar knowing the score he would then be able to follow the rules to their best humor use :)

But thats just me, Its seemed that Belkar is always 1 or 2 steps ahead and likes to keep it close to the vest.

[Woof]

I'm not really familiar with D&D rules, but according to that link to the SRD, it doesn't seem to require any ridiculously expensive components or suchlike to cast, so I really can't see why they'd just pretend to have cast it if they could go for the real deal. Besides, I think it would be too much of a risk for Hinjo to take. If Belkar ever figured out it wasn't a real mark, you'd have a chaotic evil killer on the loose. Nah.

[Lolzords]

Well, ok, so it's magical...it could be a magical invisible temporary tattoo. :smallwink: That would show up as a blue glow on his forehead when V casts Detect Magic, right?

I don't think so. They can see the rune and to cast spells in OOTS world you have to yell the name. So Belkar would know if MoJ was cast on him because the caster would have yelled "MARK OF JUSTICE!"

[Chronos]

I believe that Belkar actually knows that the mark isn't real, as I could see him testing it in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html on the last frame, I could see him just checking.. :)No, the Mark just prevents him from dealing lethal damage. The nonlethal kind is still allowed. And unless he's taken a monk level somewhere and didn't tell us, his unarmed strikes (such as kicks) do nonlethal damage.

[Kish]

My feelings exactly but sort of anathema in this forum. The halfling should be killed and then resurrected so he could be killed again, with the process repeated until his innocent's death toll was matched.

Really, now. Belkar needs killin' badly, but torture is inherently evil. Just kill him once and atomize his body.

[Jawajoey]

My feelings exactly but sort of anathema in this forum. The halfling should be killed and then resurrected so he could be killed again, with the process repeated until his innocent's death toll was matched.


Well that's silly. The whole bad part about death is not coming back. Temporary death isn't a punishment. It would be more just to keep Belkar alive and making money until he earned enough to resurrect everyone he killed. That's what they're doing even: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html
"...his split of the treasure will go towards paying for the guard to be raised."


I think the Mark is real, mainly because I have no reason to believe it isn't. The burden of proof lies on the people who think it isn't real, and there isn't any evidence that it is not.

[Savageman]

My feelings exactly but sort of anathema in this forum. The halfling should be killed and then resurrected so he could be killed again, with the process repeated until his innocent's death toll was matched.

About what is or isn't Roy. Well, Eugene's tomb still has his name even if they know his spirit is chasing women on a different plane, so in the OOTS universe the body is part of the individual's identity. I think any portion of the body would qualify.


Should Belkar really be killed? He's my favorite character in the comic! Besides just the funny he brings though, I don't think you could really justify killing him. He is likely evil, but besides that guard he hasn't killed anybody (that I know of) who didn't deserve it (goblins). And when he killed the guard he was being held unjustly in a foreign land. Can ya blame him?

[doliemaster]

Um, the mark is a 4th level paladin spell, that requires really high level paladins, which it is obvouis that they didn't have, with miko and all being their strongest and her being not a paladin anymore. Also how do we know they have clerics that can cast 5th level spells?

[factotum]

Also how do we know they have clerics that can
cast 5th level spells?

Because one of them tried to cast Raise Dead on Shojo, which is also a 5th level spell...

[doliemaster]

Oh, well then that's different and as far as shojo's reason, he might need Belkar to be able to fight if the situtation comes down to it, or planned to tell him before they went to the next gate, didn't tell Roy or Hinjo, and the secret died with him.

[TreesOfDeath]

Being the utilitarian type of person Shojo was, its possible he had a fake mark put on Belkar until a time they felt they;d need him to go on a killing spree or something. So yeah, I think its quite possible the MOJ is fake. The terms outlined for the MOJ seemed deliberately stupid

[teratorn]

He is likely evil, but besides that guard he hasn't killed anybody (that I know of) who didn't deserve it (goblins).
Be careful, this last strip has shown that Belkar reads the forums, he won't be happy with "likely". He's evil to the bone! I fear for your internal organs.

In Origins we have a taste of the "real Belkar".
:belkar: «and the smell of fresh human blood fills my nostrils. Life can't possibly get any better than this.»
(In fact it did, but that's a spoiler).

[Fhaolan]

I think any portion of the body would qualify.

There's a disturbing thought. If any portion of the body qualifies, all Belkar needs is to carry around some easily transportable part of Roy. A finger, say. Hopefully, this isn't true, or if it is, Belkar doesn't figure this out...

[the_tick_rules]

it's there, we have yet to confirm if it actually does the punishment part though.

[Redblade]

Well, I think its probably real. That doesnt necessarily mean the terms that Roy told Belkar are true though. It was possibly just set to go off if Roy gave the word but the other terms seemed convenient to stop Belkar doing things behind Roy's back.
Its also possible that Roy didn't know the real terms ether and they died with Shojo and his wizard. Or maybe just the wizard even, he might have been a friend/foe of the guard who then treated Belkar harshly/kindly as a result.

[Nomatsu]

Do the goblins count as a living creature within city limits...?
Then woundn't the mark have gone off?

Oh the part about being more then a mile away from Roy. If case some forgot they are going to get his body in this latest comic. It just seemed like people forgot that.

Honestly we have nothing besides "Shojo's good heart" to really say its real. That and Shojo seems like the type of person who would do cheap, at least to me.

[Lamech]

There is quite a bit of evidence for a fake mark.
1) It glowed under detect magic. Arcane mark does that not Mark of justice.
2) Belkar couldn't find a wizard who could cast break enchantment in all of Azure city. If Shojo wanted an unremoveable mark a fake one would work nicely.
3) Notice how Roy says what the Mark does in 295 "he'll get sicker and sicker until he'll be incapable of hurting anyone." That isn't a choice for bestow curse and it seems a bit more powerful than the effects presented in the PHB.
4) Read comic 323 Roy threatens Belkar with the Mark of Justice. He says "I'm having trouble seeing why I shouldn't activate it and leave you writhing on the ground until another owlbear wanders by." That seems a lot more powerful than the three example effects for bestow curse, and it isn't the same as what Roy originally said the Mark did.

[Chronos]

1) It glowed under detect magic. Arcane mark does that not Mark of justice.Almost every spell, unless specifically stated otherwise, shows up in some way under Detect Magic. And given that Mark of Justice is cast by scribing a mark on the subject's forehead, the logical way for it to show up is for the mark to appear to glow.

2) Belkar couldn't find a wizard who could cast break enchantment in all of Azure city. If Shojo wanted an unremoveable mark a fake one would work nicely.And a real one would work even more nicely. It's a heck of a lot easier to remove an Arcane Mark than a Mark of Justice. Heck, an Arcane Mark cast on a living creature will wear off on its own, after a while.

3) Notice how Roy says what the Mark does in 295 "he'll get sicker and sicker until he'll be incapable of hurting anyone." That isn't a choice for bestow curse and it seems a bit more powerful than the effects presented in the PHB.
4) Read comic 323 Roy threatens Belkar with the Mark of Justice. He says "I'm having trouble seeing why I shouldn't activate it and leave you writhing on the ground until another owlbear wanders by." That seems a lot more powerful than the three example effects for bestow curse, and it isn't the same as what Roy originally said the Mark did.Either Roy exaggerated when describing the terms, or Rich thought that was a reasonable curse. It could, for instance, work by reducing Charisma, and it might be allowed to be a little stronger than the -6 described in Bestow Curse since it takes effect slowly. Belkar probably only has about 8 Cha, so something which reduced his Cha by 8 would indeed leave him powerless. Either way, the two descriptions given do match (a person sickened to the point of powerlessness could very well writhe on the ground).

Nomatsu, of course the hobgoblins count as living creatures. That's why Belkar has taken such care to not do damage to any of them inside the city. When he was fighting on the walls, he was only attacking the undead, and his "sexy shoeless god of war" moment was outside.

And maybe Shojo is the type to do cheap. But Mark of Justice is cheap. All he has to do is order one of the city's many clerics to cast it. It doesn't cost him anything.

[Hiest, monkey]

Um, Also how do we know they have clerics that can cast 5th level spells?

An obvious solution being that Durkon cast it on a request, in the case that Roy died and so did Sholo, so that the mark could be removed.

Yes the rules dictate that:
a)roy coudn't have removed it and
b)it still will take a break enchantment spell.

What tells you Durkon lacks one?

There is always the chance it is Durkon's spell.

And the caster knows the activation comand word.

Durkon has been a good secret keeper in the past.

[Lamech]

Sorry I don't know how to put things in quote box.

Chronos you typed "Almost every spell, unless specifically stated otherwise, shows up in some way under Detect Magic. And given that Mark of Justice is cast by scribing a mark on the subject's forehead, the logical way for it to show up is for the mark to appear to glow."

Yes, almost every spell shows up under detect magic, but they don't glow. It looked to me like every one could see the Mark, and detect magic would only show V. Under the description of Arcane Mark it says that detect magic makes the mark glow and be visible. It says no such thing under Mark of Justice. Secondly the detect magic spell wouldn't determine the Marks location until the third round normally. In the first round V's detect magic would have shown the presence of magical auras only and Belkar is wearing a ring of jumping.

Chronos your second point "And a real one would work even more nicely. It's a heck of a lot easier to remove an Arcane Mark than a Mark of Justice. Heck, an Arcane Mark cast on a living creature will wear off on its own, after a while."

It takes a month for the mark to fade. If it is a Arcane Mark V would have to be in on it, so Roy could just have V recast it while Belkar is sleeping, or under the effect of a sleep spell, or wipe Belkar's memory with a modify memory spell. If a wizard was trying to remove a Mark of Justice they wouldn't use erase they would use break enchantment or remove curse. Neither of which would get rid of the Mark of Justice. Neither would a wish, limited wish, or miracle spell if the caster asked to "remove the Mark of Justice"

Chronos your third point "Either Roy exaggerated when describing the terms, or Rich thought that was a reasonable curse. It could, for instance, work by reducing Charisma, and it might be allowed to be a little stronger than the -6 described in Bestow Curse since it takes effect slowly. Belkar probably only has about 8 Cha, so something which reduced his Cha by 8 would indeed leave him powerless. Either way, the two descriptions given do match (a person sickened to the point of powerlessness could very well writhe on the ground)."

A charisma of 0 would leave a person catatonic not writhing. Plus if bestow curse could reduce a stat to 0 that would be quite a bit stronger, then a minus 6 penalty that can't.

[comicadv]

Comic #295. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)

It shows up on his forehead when V hits him with Detect Magic.

So they probably use magic marker...:smallbiggrin:

[Jawajoey]

Sorry I don't know how to put things in quote box.

Put [*QUOTE] Quoted Text [*/QUOTE] tags around what you're quoting. (Without the asterisks). Or just select some text and click the Quote tag button in the advanced post screen. Or just click the Quote button on the post you're responding to, instead of Post Reply or Quick Reply.



Yes, almost every spell shows up under detect magic, but they don't glow. It looked to me like every one could see the Mark, and detect magic would only show V. Under the description of Arcane Mark it says that detect magic makes the mark glow and be visible. It says no such thing under Mark of Justice. Secondly the detect magic spell wouldn't determine the Marks location until the third round normally. In the first round V's detect magic would have shown the presence of magical auras only and Belkar is wearing a ring of jumping.

The Rules don't explicitly state whether the mark is visible. It says "indelible," which means unremovable, but not necessarily visible. It does make sense that it would be visible, but there's no reason that it must be. Maybe the caster just wrote the mark with invisible ink. :smalltongue:

It doesn't matter that it doesn't say it would glow under detect magic. What the visual results of Detect Magic are are totally up to interpretation and imagination. And for the purposes of the comic, anything more complicated than "It Glows" would be silly. Remember how Detect Evil looked? Does it say that in the RAW?

As for the time it took, they were just talking in a non threatening situation. It's reasonable to say that they don't have to wait, especially considering DM powers to speed the plot. Would you rather they just have 5 panels of V staring at Belkar before anything happened?


It takes a month for the mark to fade. If it is a Arcane Mark V would have to be in on it, so Roy could just have V recast it while Belkar is sleeping, or under the effect of a sleep spell, or wipe Belkar's memory with a modify memory spell. If a wizard was trying to remove a Mark of Justice they wouldn't use erase they would use break enchantment or remove curse. Neither of which would get rid of the Mark of Justice. Neither would a wish, limited wish, or miracle spell if the caster asked to "remove the Mark of Justice"

That's needlessly complicated. It's perfectly reasonable for it to be prohibitively difficult to remove even as a MoJ. Shojo had some cleric cast the mark, at least level 5, easily more if it's Shojo's private trusted cleric (one who would be willing to go above the law) or something. Either way, the highest level cleric Shojo had access to was certainly higher level than whoever Belkar would be able to find by walking around AC, and therefore could easily be unable to remove the higher caster's curse with either Remove Curse or Break Enchantment. It's perfectly reasonable that everything has happened exactly as Belkar thinks it has.
There's wishes and stuff, but that's rare and unexpected, and can't be accounted for. Pretty much anything Shojo could do could be nullified by a wish. And frankly, Belkar's a lot more likely to wish to "remove this stupid mark" anyways, so no likely benefit there.



The thing to remember is that no one has hard facts here. Rule interpretation is a major role in guessing what you think is really happening, and that's all subjective, so at this point we can't say anyone is right. The best you can do is say that the mark has an equal chance of not-existing and existing.

[Snipers_Promise]

I think that the mark is real.

I also think that *eventually* we will find out what the trigger command word is that would (/will) set it off. And for us to find that out, Roy needs to come back to life.

I could be wrong but I say Roy's ressurection is assured by the presence and validity of the mark.


I think someone will say the command word by accident.

[Snipers_Promise]

Oh and do the ruins of a city still count as a city?

[Oberon]

Oh and do the ruins of a city still count as a city?

Well it's still settled, right? just by goblins..

[Lamech]

The thing to remember is that no one has hard facts here. Rule interpretation is a major role in guessing what you think is really happening, and that's all subjective, so at this point we can't say anyone is right. The best you can do is say that the mark has an equal chance of not-existing and existing.

Right, I just wanted to show some evidence for the it being an Arcane Mark because of remarks like this.


The burden of proof lies on the people who think it isn't real, and there isn't any evidence that it is not.


Also thanks, Jawajoey, for telling me how to use quote boxes.