Help me optimise a paladin / gish :)

[deathadder99]

Hey,
Long time lurker, first time poster here. My current character is getting boring, and he's near the end of his personal story arc, so I'm retiring him to have another character. I really wanted to play a Paladin, and I love the Oathbreaker archetype. So my character is going to be an Oathbreaker Paladin of Bane. He's a Lawful Evil mercenary, along the lines of Canderous Ordo from KoToR. He also has some connection with the undead, so the fluff works.

I was thinking of this for the character progression. I am a Variant Human.

My stats (point buy, +Cha + Str) are

16 Str, 8 Dex, 13 Con, 8 Int, 12 Wis, 16 Cha. 16 Str, 8 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha.

The campaign starts at level 8 or so, maybe 9 or 10 depending on how things go, and will eventually go all the way to 20. I'm quite interested in the following build, shamelessly stolen from another thread here (can't link as I'm too new, but it's to do with paladin/warlock optimisation).
Paladin 12/ Fighter 3/ Sorceror 5



1
Fighter
Polearm Master


2
Paladin



3
Paladin



4
Paladin
Oathbreaker


5
Paladin
Great Weapon Master


6
Paladin



7
Paladin



8
Fighter



9
Fighter
Battlemaster - Trip Attack, Precision Attack, Menacing Strike


10
Sorceror
Shadow Sorceror


11
Sorc



12
Sorc
Metamagic - Twin & Quicken


13
Sorc
+2 Cha


14
Sorc



15
Paladin



16
Paladin
+2 Cha


17
Paladin



18
Paladin



19
Paladin



20
Paladin
+2 Str or Lucky




I really like the idea of this build. I have nova, lots of spell slots for smite, and I can cast Haste, Mirror Image, Hold Person all Quickened. Worth mentioning that we have no other Wizard or Sorc in the group. Fighter for Con Saves, and Manouvres give me great stuff to do in battle, and my DPR is pretty respectable with 2 attacks and bonus attack per round, plus hellish rebuke, and PAM AoO.

Shadow Sorceror also gives me a nifty trick, as I am proficient in CON saves, and I get +5 from the aura eventually, I'm pretty damn hard to kill as I have the zombie passive (plus I have darkness + darkvision cheese for advantage).

I do get that this build kinda sucks once you run out of spell slots and sorcery points, but I figure it's survivable enough to hold its own, and still do respectable damage. It's also fun to learn to tactically conserve resources.

However - IDS, a HUGE part of the consistency comes at level 19!!!! That's almost the capstone. I'm wondering if I should just go straight paladin. The Oathbreaker capstone is pretty cool, and the level 15 ability is quite good as well. However I'm not entirely sold on going more than 12 levels into the class.

What would be your advice? This is a two player campaign with me and either a bard or a cleric (we swap DMs occasionally). The bard is very support heavy, and the cleric has a really gimmicky build, so I want a solid character that can tank and do a lot of damage (since they do like to make challenging combats), and also be able to heal a bit in the worst case. Is the original build plan solid? Is there anything I can change? Thanks :)

[RulesJD]

1. Drop 2 Wis and pickup +1 Con. You're going to need the HP/Con saves.

2. Pickup Sorc before more Fighter levels. You'll need the Shield spell sooner than you'll need BM die.

[deathadder99]

1. Drop 2 Wis and pickup +1 Con. You're going to need the HP/Con saves.

2. Pickup Sorc before more Fighter levels. You'll need the Shield spell sooner than you'll need BM die.


Good point about the fighter levels, and I'll definitely move the CON. I suppose I COULD also delay the fighter levels until after sorc and paladin levels, and get precision and trip attack after IDS. That might be better? I suppose it's nova/hitting hard opponents vs DPR. I can always see how I feel. Part of the reason I wanted to go BM early is just to have some nice resources that come back on a short rest.

[RulesJD]

Good point about the fighter levels, and I'll definitely move the CON. I suppose I COULD also delay the fighter levels until after sorc and paladin levels, and get precision and trip attack after IDS. That might be better? I suppose it's nova/hitting hard opponents vs DPR. I can always see how I feel. Part of the reason I wanted to go BM early is just to have some nice resources that come back on a short rest.

I'd say go BM over IDS. You have access to Divine Favor which is only ~2-3 damage less per hit (so 6 per turn if they all hit, depending on whether IDS qualifies for GWF style). BM is far more useful on a Polearm user. Menacing Strike on a target 10ft away = they can't move closer to you to attack. Like a semi-Sentinel feat.

Plus, like you said, you're going to want some short rest resources + Action Surge for those big smites.

[Biggstick]

You know what's going to be difficult in this leveling process? Character levels 8-11 are going to be a trudge. You'll only have 6 spell slots overall (until level 10), and then you won't have access to the Sorcerer strength of Sorcery points until level 12. If you're fine playing through those pretty much dead levels of 8-11, then the build will work out I guess.

[Biggstick]

I'd say go BM over IDS. You have access to Divine Favor which is only ~2-3 damage less per hit (so 6 per turn if they all hit, depending on whether IDS qualifies for GWF style). BM is far more useful on a Polearm user. Menacing Strike on a target 10ft away = they can't move closer to you to attack. Like a semi-Sentinel feat.

Plus, like you said, you're going to want some short rest resources + Action Surge for those big smites.

IDS is nice though in that it's always on. For every swing at every point of the turn. Divine Favor is a spell that eats up an action in the attack cycle and requires your concentration, meaning you're not using that spell on Divine Smite or Bless.

[Corran]

...
The campaign starts at level 8 or so, maybe 9 or 10 depending on how things go, and will eventually go all the way to 20.
...
However - IDS, a HUGE part of the consistency comes at level 19!!!! That's almost the capstone. I'm wondering if I should just go straight paladin. The Oathbreaker capstone is pretty cool, and the level 15 ability is quite good as well. However I'm not entirely sold on going more than 12 levels into the class.

What would be your advice? This is a two player campaign with me and either a bard or a cleric (we swap DMs occasionally). The bard is very support heavy, and the cleric has a really gimmicky build, so I want a solid character that can tank and do a lot of damage (since they do like to make challenging combats), and also be able to heal a bit in the worst case. Is the original build plan solid? Is there anything I can change? Thanks :)
Since you will be starting close to level 11 (paladin 11 gives IDS and an oathbreaker with the right build can work wonders with it), and since you are part of a relatively small group, and since you see your campaign going all the way up to level 20, I would strongly suggest going oathbreaker all the way.

I would also suggest to start with polearm master and sentinel. These will be 2 out of your total of 6 feats/ASIs. The rest 4 can go to your str and cha, so that you will end up with 20's in both these stats, or you can invest in one more feat or two (mounted combatant, resilient con, etc). Makes small difference (though I do reccomend getting your cha to 20 eventually). One thing you should notice, is that if you plan on taking resilient con at some point, start with a con of 13 and put the 2 extra points in dex. Otherwise your stats are fine as they are.

Your go-to spell will be wrathful smite, even in very high levels (in fact, wrathful smite works really well with the 20 lvl capstone). That doesnt mean that you wont be using any other spells, but this spell (wrathful smite) plays really well with the oathbreaker's features and his action economy, thus it will be your bread and butter.

Also, make sure to use the lvl 3 channel divinity dreadful aspect as often as you can, and during your first round of combat, it is worth the action. Mass fear is one of the best ways to control the battlefield. Your reach (through polearm) exploits the fear condition, and sentinel helps you keep enemies within the 30 foot radius that does not even allow frightened enemies to attempt to save.

Polearm master and sentinel, also give you an almost guaranteed reactionary attack every round, thus covering your use of reaction (more options like shield and hellis rebuke, as presented in your initial build are not bad to have, but with your reaction covered most of the time you wont miss them). Not to mention that IDS applies to all those reaction attacks, adding to your dpr significantly. Same with the bonus action attack with the butt-end of the polearm. There, dpr solved. Battlefield control solved. Tanking (you are a paladin, good AC and good saves) and stickiness (reach and sentinel) solved.

Usual combat srategy. First round, use your action with the dreadful aspect channel divinity, and your bonus action to cast wrathful smite, then move 10 feet from an enemy that saved against your dreadful aspect. Next round, all out attack, with action and bonus action, inflicting on hit wrathful smite. Now you ve got the majority of your enemies frightned. Position yourself accordingly to excert control of the battlefield as you like.

Once you reach 20 level, use the dread lord transformation (20 lvl capstone) with your action in the first round, bonus action spell attack granted by the same feature. From second round you follow the above mentioned strategy, to grant yourself all of the above benefits, with the addition that now every frightened creature within 30 feet radius takes damage (from the dread lord feature) at the start of their turn. And remember, sentinel can keep them close.

Dreadful aspect (and wrathful smite) rely on your DC, and thus charisma. So do your saves ofc (aura of protection) and the saves of your allies. Recommend getting your charisma to 20 (after taking sentinel and PM), and maybe leave your str to 18 if you realy want one more feat.

ps: Forgot to mention. Aura of hate also works really really well with PM and sentinel, adding your cha (hopefully +5 at some point) to possibly 4 attacks per round is good!

[Mors]

Lvl 7 oathbreaker + lvl 12 undying light pact of the blade warlock lets you adds cha x2 to damage, x3 when casting greenflame blade. Start with Shadow sorcerer for the con saves + the undying trick or barbarian for resistance to damage and con saves or fighter for con saves plus heavy armor. You lose quicken this way though and 12 warlock lvls is along way.

Now your build is solid. I will point out some weakness though. You delay the seventh paladin lvl which is powerful. Action Surge is worth it, maneuvers maybe, maybe not. You also delay Animate Dead a lot, which has excellent synergy with your lvl 7 oathbreaker feature. You do pick good stuff along the way though so I am not sure how the power curve balances out.

[djreynolds]

Devotion's sacred weapon is nice and recharges on a short rest. 1 minute. Can help land a lot of smites. +5 to hit, makes GWM nice to use as well and saves that bless spell for something else like haste or shield of faith, etc. Sorcerer will open a lot of great utility spells like fireshield and mirror image that do not require concentration helping you tank. But that +5 to hit is really nice to have, assuming your charisma is maxed.

[deathadder99]

Wow, thanks for all the great comments! I have a lot to think about.


You know what's going to be difficult in this leveling process? Character levels 8-11 are going to be a trudge. You'll only have 6 spell slots overall (until level 10), and then you won't have access to the Sorcerer strength of Sorcery points until level 12. If you're fine playing through those pretty much dead levels of 8-11, then the build will work out I guess.

I'm quite a fan of battlemaster manouvres - but I might swap the Sorceror levels to be before the fighter levels based on the previous comments. I just like having something to do after a short rest.


Since you will be starting close to level 11 (paladin 11 gives IDS and an oathbreaker with the right build can work wonders with it), and since you are part of a relatively small group, and since you see your campaign going all the way up to level 20, I would strongly suggest going oathbreaker all the way.

I would also suggest to start with polearm master and sentinel. These will be 2 out of your total of 6 feats/ASIs. The rest 4 can go to your str and cha, so that you will end up with 20's in both these stats, or you can invest in one more feat or two (mounted combatant, resilient con, etc). Makes small difference (though I do reccomend getting your cha to 20 eventually). One thing you should notice, is that if you plan on taking resilient con at some point, start with a con of 13 and put the 2 extra points in dex. Otherwise your stats are fine as they are.

snip...

ps: Forgot to mention. Aura of hate also works really really well with PM and sentinel, adding your cha (hopefully +5 at some point) to possibly 4 attacks per round is good!

This is a great option that I will definitely have to look into. My only issue is that I'm not really sold on level 13-20 with a paladin, but I could always start Paladin 12 and get Resilient Con instead of the fighter levels and go sorc for 8 levels.... So many choices, I love it! Also, Hellish Rebuke comes from Oathbreaker so I'll just lose Shield as a reaction.

My only issue with the Oathbreaker capstone is it's once per long rest, so I can dominate one combat a day with it, whereas if I splash Sorc and Fighter I have more options that I can spend with much finer granularity based on the combat, and I have some short rest resources as well. It does seem really great though... Hmm.


Lvl 7 oathbreaker + lvl 12 undying light pact of the blade warlock lets you adds cha x2 to damage, x3 when casting greenflame blade. Start with Shadow sorcerer for the con saves + the undying trick or barbarian for resistance to damage and con saves or fighter for con saves plus heavy armor. You lose quicken this way though and 12 warlock lvls is along way.

Now your build is solid. I will point out some weakness though. You delay the seventh paladin lvl which is powerful. Action Surge is worth it, maneuvers maybe, maybe not. You also delay Animate Dead a lot, which has excellent synergy with your lvl 7 oathbreaker feature. You do pick good stuff along the way though so I am not sure how the power curve balances out.

Yeah the original plan was actually paladin/ bladelock, that's also an option I can take. Darkness/Devil's sight cheese is still viable but it would probably tread on the other player's feet. I definitely feel like I can switch up levelling order somehow to flow better.


Devotion's sacred weapon is nice and recharges on a short rest. 1 minute. Can help land a lot of smites. +5 to hit, makes GWM nice to use as well and saves that bless spell for something else like haste or shield of faith, etc. Sorcerer will open a lot of great utility spells like fireshield and mirror image that do not require concentration helping you tank. But that +5 to hit is really nice to have, assuming your charisma is maxed.

I was looking at devotion, but I really want to play an Evil paladin :)

[djreynolds]

IMO fighter dip is overrated. You want wisdom saves just as much as con, so just take resilient con. Oathbreaker is awesome, grab sorcerer and summon undead and then add your charisma to everyone's attacks. Have a little undead gang.

I see Darth Vader and undead stormtroopers here. Heck throw in a level of warlock while you are at it and get EB.

[deathadder99]

IMO fighter dip is overrated. You want wisdom saves just as much as con, so just take resilient con. Oathbreaker is awesome, grab sorcerer and summon undead and then add your charisma to everyone's attacks. Have a little undead gang.

I see Darth Vader and undead stormtroopers here. Heck throw in a level of warlock while you are at it and get EB.

That sounds cool but not really what I'm going for :). Good point about wisdom saves though. I might start paladin and swap an ASI for resilient Con and leave Str at 16. I think the one magic item this guy wants are the gauntlets of giant strength so as I'll probably get them eventually the ASI isn't so needed... But then I won't have maxed charisma early. Resilient wisdom is suboptimal as I can't get 14 con and 11 wisdom :(. Bleh.

[djreynolds]

That sounds cool but not really what I'm going for :). Good point about wisdom saves though. I might start paladin and swap an ASI for resilient Con and leave Str at 16. I think the one magic item this guy wants are the gauntlets of giant strength so as I'll probably get them eventually the ASI isn't so needed... But then I won't have maxed charisma early. Resilient wisdom is suboptimal as I can't get 14 con and 11 wisdom :(. Bleh.

Then begin as fighter, your aura of protection at 6th will cover wisdom. Can't be perfect and snag an extra fighting style and then grab action surge later on.

Good luck, and post your build as you go.

But remember evil paladin... "Anakin your breaking my heart.."