FFVII Remake's battle system is action RPG-esque

[danzibr]

Not sure how I feel about this. I'm sure it can be loads of fun, but... I'm thinking about the materia system. Limit Breaks, yeah, those can be great. But how's all the magic and stuff going to work? And summons? Maybe they'll be even cooler, maybe janky. Concerned, cautiously optimistic.

[JadedDM]

I assume they will work however they work in FF15. Which seems to be heavily based on Kingdom Hearts' battle system.

[Togath]

And a kingdom hearts-ish system for combat is a big plus for me~
The odd "not quite turn based, not quite real time" battle system of most of the final fantasy series has always been a bit offputting to me, but I loved the systems from the kingdom hearts series.:smallbiggrin:

[Gnoman]

Well, add another FF game to the "I'll never buy it" pile.

[Yuki Akuma]

Not sure how I feel about this. I'm sure it can be loads of fun, but... I'm thinking about the materia system. Limit Breaks, yeah, those can be great. But how's all the magic and stuff going to work? And summons? Maybe they'll be even cooler, maybe janky. Concerned, cautiously optimistic.

Never played a Kingdom Hearts game, huh?

Honestly, limited spells and abilities based on materia feels a lot like the ability deck system from KH: BBS.

[danzibr]

I've played KH (just the original). And while I liked it, it's certainly no FFVII.

I guess I don't want to lose a bunch of options in gaining a fast paced combat system.

[Grif]

Huh.

Guess I may as well just get the original then.

[Olinser]

I don't understand why they're screwing with the formula.

FF7 is still the single best selling game in the franchise. 12 and 13 (their monkey hybrid battle systems) barely got that much combined.

Them majorly changing the combat formula makes me really, really nervous that they're going to feel at liberty to change OTHER things about the game. This is looking more and more like it's going to be a, "I'll just pull out and play the old one" instead.

I mean if you want to make a sequel and call it 7-2, sure, why not, new game. But don't go back and screw with a beloved game. I literally can't remember a single time that has turned out well.

[Togath]

I've played KH (just the original). And while I liked it, it's certainly no FFVII.

I guess I don't want to lose a bunch of options in gaining a fast paced combat system.

The later games have a lot more options in combat, if that helps.

[Rodin]

I don't see the point of this. I was planning on picking it up because I never owned a Playstation, and as such never played the original. I've considered picking it up a few times, but every time I look at it the graphics put me off. PSX games got hit HARD when it comes to dated graphics, and FF7 in particular looks hideous in comparison to FF6, whose sprites aged significantly better.

So when they said they were re-releasing it, I was pretty excited. You get nicer graphics, they tidy up some of the more hated elements, refine the gameplay a little, and I get to experience this game everyone has always raved about. Okay, it won't be exact, but the idea is that they subtly improve upon things.

By completely redoing the gameplay...why would I want to play it, again? I know the basics of the plot from pop-cultural osmosis. I didn't like the gameplay of FFXII, where the game played itself. Kingdom Hearts was good, but that formula got played out with 15 years of actual Kingdom Hearts games.

They've made it so that the remake...isn't. It's a new game with an old plot.

[Olinser]

I don't see the point of this. I was planning on picking it up because I never owned a Playstation, and as such never played the original. I've considered picking it up a few times, but every time I look at it the graphics put me off. PSX games got hit HARD when it comes to dated graphics, and FF7 in particular looks hideous in comparison to FF6, whose sprites aged significantly better.

So when they said they were re-releasing it, I was pretty excited. You get nicer graphics, they tidy up some of the more hated elements, refine the gameplay a little, and I get to experience this game everyone has always raved about. Okay, it won't be exact, but the idea is that they subtly improve upon things.

By completely redoing the gameplay...why would I want to play it, again? I know the basics of the plot from pop-cultural osmosis. I didn't like the gameplay of FFXII, where the game played itself. Kingdom Hearts was good, but that formula got played out with 15 years of actual Kingdom Hearts games.

They've made it so that the remake...isn't. It's a new game with an old plot.

Actually the original FF7 is available for PC - that's how I played it, in fact, because I also did not own an original PS.

If you're interested in playing the legit original I'm sure you could find one easily on Amazon or Ebay.

[Rodin]

Actually the original FF7 is available for PC - that's how I played it, in fact, because I also did not own an original PS.

If you're interested in playing the legit original I'm sure you could find one easily on Amazon or Ebay.

That's not the issue, I'm well aware that it's available at this point (and has been for some time). I haven't gone back and played it because the game has aged badly. That's why I was looking forward to the remake - I missed my chance to play it when the graphics wouldn't have bothered me as much as they do now.

All I really wanted from the remake was better graphics, and maybe some optimization of anything that didn't work that well in the original. Oh, and obviously bug fixes (like the fixing of Vanish/Doom from the re-release of FFVI).

[GloatingSwine]

I never found FFVII's battles the most interesting in the series. There was quite a low variance in stats between party members and the balance between attack damage and magic damage meant that magic was really only any good if there was an elemental weakness to exploit.

I'd kinda prefer if they changed it to be more like FFX-2s though, with variable ATB cooldowns on different actions, and put more clear air between the different characters in terms of stats and maybe even available actions to make them feel different beyond what their limit break was.

[Olinser]

I never found FFVII's battles the most interesting in the series. There was quite a low variance in stats between party members and the balance between attack damage and magic damage meant that magic was really only any good if there was an elemental weakness to exploit.

I'd kinda prefer if they changed it to be more like FFX-2s though, with variable ATB cooldowns on different actions, and put more clear air between the different characters in terms of stats and maybe even available actions to make them feel different beyond what their limit break was.

I actually don't recall ANY Final Fantasy game where anything less than top-tier spells like Ultima could compete against normal attacks/skills for damage without exploiting a weakness. And even then most of the top tier spells aren't worth it because of high MP costs and damage caps. It's pretty much always been the case in Final Fantasy that the best spells have been buffs/debuffs and not damage spells.

[GloatingSwine]

I actually don't recall ANY Final Fantasy game where anything less than top-tier spells like Ultima could compete against normal attacks/skills for damage without exploiting a weakness. And even then most of the top tier spells aren't worth it because of high MP costs and damage caps. It's pretty much always been the case in Final Fantasy that the best spells have been buffs/debuffs and not damage spells.

FF4/5 were pretty good for making magic worth its cost.

But yeah, it's very often been the case that magic is rarely worth its cost.

[Rodin]

FFVI's magic was pretty good, mainly because quite a few characters had relatively poor skills. Yes, the characters with good skills outshined magic, but then there were the times when you were forced into using the weaker characters and suddenly magic became very important for making up the gap.

[Maryring]

Final Fantasy VII had, quite frankly, terrible game balance with more broken combinations than you can shake a stick at. I wasn't interested in picking up the VII remake before, but if the new combat system is better and more interesting than the old one, I might just pick it up after all.

[Olinser]

Final Fantasy VII had, quite frankly, terrible game balance with more broken combinations than you can shake a stick at. I wasn't interested in picking up the VII remake before, but if the new combat system is better and more interesting than the old one, I might just pick it up after all.

ALL of the older Final Fantasy games (and a lot of newer ones still) have broken combinations that crush game balance. It's part of what Final Fantasy is. And you usually have to use them to kill the bonus bosses.

7 was actually one of the better ones about it, there were very few broken combos (Vincent 1 shotting everything is the only one that comes to mind - things like Knights of the Round function exactly as intended). Before the endgame it was quite well balanced unless you excessively ground out enemies. And if you sit around unnecessarily grinding in an RPG then you lose the ability to complain about balance.

FF6 was 20x worse with the amount of utterly broken combinations that were clearly not intended - Wind God Gau, Psycho Cyan, Vanish/Doom, 100% avoidance to EVERYTHING, and those are just off the top of my head.

[Zevox]

And a kingdom hearts-ish system for combat is a big plus for me~
The odd "not quite turn based, not quite real time" battle system of most of the final fantasy series has always been a bit offputting to me, but I loved the systems from the kingdom hearts series.:smallbiggrin:
While I can't say I feel as strongly about Kingdom Hearts, I agree with the sentiment about FF's "active time battle" system - ever since I first encountered it I've always felt the games that have it would be better off with either a pure turn-based or a pure action-based combat system instead, rather than the weird attempt to marry turn-based and real-time elements that is that combat system. Even the couple of games that have it that I've enjoyed, Chrono Trigger and FF4, have been in spite of it.

I can't say this change really makes me likely to pick up the game, because frankly I don't have a high opinion of Final Fantasy in general and am skeptical of it by default, but it does give me a slight bit of interest in seeing and hearing how it turns out to find out if it might be worth grabbing for me, which is more than I can say I had when it was first announced.

[lord_khaine]

Them changing the system to that horrible thing they have given us in the newer versions is certainly a dealbrealer for me.
If it had been to something slightly more smooth, like the system of FFX, then i could have forgiven them. But for this? its a lot less certain.

[Anteros]

Anything is better than the "mindlessly mash X to attack for the next 70 hours" type of "gameplay" that the games of the original's generation had. I'm firmly in the camp that considers this a good thing.

[Olinser]

Anything is better than the "mindlessly mash X to attack for the next 70 hours" type of "gameplay" that the games of the original's generation had. I'm firmly in the camp that considers this a good thing.

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The irony in that statement is utterly hilarious. You DO understand that you're still mashing the X (or potentially square) button to attack in a Kingdom Hearts style action RPG, right? :smallconfused:

If anything an action RPG is WORSE, because you're hitting the attack button significantly more times per enemy than in a standard RPG.

[Rodin]

I think it's a pretty valid complaint. Turn-based JRPGs have often had the problem that the most efficient way to take down random enemies is to simply hit attack over and over. It often doesn't even matter which you target first, and your characters automatically re-target onto a random enemy when the original dies. So level grinding becomes a matter of simply hitting X repeatedly every fight then sitting back and watching the enemies die.

Action-based games may have you using your base attack primarily, but they still require you to move about the battlefield, block enemy attacks, initiate combos, and while you may not wish to spend mana there may still be fighting-game style moves you can do to better fight the enemies.

Of course, that's not to say that action-based is necessarily superior. For me, nothing beats the thrill of a good turn-based boss fight, where you're relying on careful strategy mixed with luck, and those teeth-gritting moments where you're racing to get a heal in before the boss blows you away.

The random battles have always been a weak spot...one of my big disappointments with Bravely Default was the realization that the same brutal arithmetic applied - auto-attack wins the day in the vast majority of fights, and those cool class features only apply for the boss fights. It's a problem that is rarely addressed.

[lord_khaine]

Thats again why i loved FFX so much though. It had a lot of skills you kinda needed to use if you wanted to speed things up, and boss fights held a lot of room for strategy.

[Grif]

Thats again why i loved FFX so much though. It had a lot of skills you kinda needed to use if you wanted to speed things up, and boss fights held a lot of room for strategy.

I was actually surprised FFX used a pure turn-based system for its combat. Pleasantly surprised at that. Gave me more time to think about stuff, and even allow myself to be pulled away in case something came up.

[danzibr]

I agree with those who liked X's battle system. That would've been a good system for the remake, methinks.

BUT I can also see what they're doing as fun. Could suck, could be great. Mashing X for 70 hours would be dreadful, but if it is like KH2 (which I haven't played), could be great.

Another thing. Keeping an in-depth materia system could really work. I assume you'll have like hot keys. Can't have the full options you could in VII, but still plenty.

[Anteros]

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The irony in that statement is utterly hilarious. You DO understand that you're still mashing the X (or potentially square) button to attack in a Kingdom Hearts style action RPG, right? :smallconfused:

If anything an action RPG is WORSE, because you're hitting the attack button significantly more times per enemy than in a standard RPG.

Like others have said, you also have to worry about positioning, timing, dodging, blocking, environmental hazards, etc. All of which is more immersive than FFVII's gameplay where you can literally turn the TV off, go make a sandwich, press X in between applying each condiment, and turn the TV back on to a victory screen.

[Lentrax]

I'm probably going to pick it up anyway, regardless of Battle System. Just for better looking cinematics.

I mean, Aeris still hits me every time I see her, and I want to see a lot of the cinematics in the game done with the graphics we are capable of today. Not to mention Crossdressing Cloud.

[RoyVG]

Crisis Core did it quite well and I enjoyed that game very much (and still hate the fact I can't download it on my Vita). I'm both for and against the idea of turning FFVII remake into an action RPG. The old system IMO was very clunky and together with the outdated graphics, it's just putting me off to ever start playing it again. The original system just doesn't hold up for a current gen game in my opinion. Sure, the bugs can be fixed and exploits can be removed, but you will still have a system where every character is more or less the same. FFIX did a better job of diversifying the characters and giving them distinct strength and weaknesses in combat while keeping true to their personality, even if it meant that many abilities were locked to one specific character (Vivi is a black mage, he casts offensive magic. Steiner is a Knight, he protects his allies).

I hope they update the lore and story telling to be a little easier to understand and bit more interesting to stay invested. Especially with the plans to release it in episodes rather than at once, this will be a huge thing. That's my main problem with the remake.

Also, I wonder if Yuffie and Vincent are going to be considered canon to the story in this version, or if they are still going to be optional? In the expanded universe, they are canon, no doubt, Vincent even got his own game and Yuffie appearing in multiple games.

[Cozzer]

I think ATB systems are a "worst of both worlds" kind of deal, so I think both a pure turn-based system and a pure action system are potentially better than the original gameplay of FF7.

Ideally they would have gone with an interesting strategic gameplay, like the turn system in FF10, but an action system is still better than "you can't have fast action gameplay and you can't have smart strategy gameplay either". :P

(The Materia system of FF7 had the potential to be very interesting... but they never created balanced skills or interesting encounters. The optimal strategy for 99% if encounters and bosses is just too simple and too obivious.)

[Starwulf]

Like others have said, you also have to worry about positioning, timing, dodging, blocking, environmental hazards, etc. All of which is more immersive than FFVII's gameplay where you can literally turn the TV off, go make a sandwich, press X in between applying each condiment, and turn the TV back on to a victory screen.

Except, if they are going with an approach like FFXII, there is no dodging/blocking/etc. It's still just "press x", and I can easily see them going that route, because why would they adopt a battle system from another game series(even if it is theirs), when they can just adopt one from their own.

Thankfully, I'm fine with both to be honest, I enjoy turn-based, I also like the combat system from FFXII. I'm just hoping they don't change the game itself much, if any at all.

[danzibr]

Crisis Core did it quite well and I enjoyed that game very much (and still hate the fact I can't download it on my Vita). I'm both for and against the idea of turning FFVII remake into an action RPG. The old system IMO was very clunky and together with the outdated graphics, it's just putting me off to ever start playing it again. The original system just doesn't hold up for a current gen game in my opinion. Sure, the bugs can be fixed and exploits can be removed, but you will still have a system where every character is more or less the same. FFIX did a better job of diversifying the characters and giving them distinct strength and weaknesses in combat while keeping true to their personality, even if it meant that many abilities were locked to one specific character (Vivi is a black mage, he casts offensive magic. Steiner is a Knight, he protects his allies).

I hope they update the lore and story telling to be a little easier to understand and bit more interesting to stay invested. Especially with the plans to release it in episodes rather than at once, this will be a huge thing. That's my main problem with the remake.

Also, I wonder if Yuffie and Vincent are going to be considered canon to the story in this version, or if they are still going to be optional? In the expanded universe, they are canon, no doubt, Vincent even got his own game and Yuffie appearing in multiple games.
That's one of my biggest complaints about FFVII, that all the characters feel the same. They have slightly varied gear (weapons are unique, but even then there are lots of nearly identical versions, guys/girls get stuff) and limit breaks, but beyond that... mechanically the same.

I know the counter to that is "hey, the materia system makes them different." Eh.

Oh yeah, lore, that'd be nice. And I doubt Vincent and Yuffie will be optional. They're too key in all the stuff that came after. Shoot, Vincent has his own game.

I think ATB systems are a "worst of both worlds" kind of deal, so I think both a pure turn-based system and a pure action system are potentially better than the original gameplay of FF7.

Ideally they would have gone with an interesting strategic gameplay, like the turn system in FF10, but an action system is still better than "you can't have fast action gameplay and you can't have smart strategy gameplay either". :P

(The Materia system of FF7 had the potential to be very interesting... but they never created balanced skills or interesting encounters. The optimal strategy for 99% if encounters and bosses is just too simple and too obivious.)
I'd say the materia system met its potential to be very interesting. I find it very interesting. So many options, and although not all of them are terribly useful, many of them, if suboptimal, I find fun.

As for the optimal strategy bit, I'm not sure what you're saying. Fighting a ranged boss? Use ranged attacks. Fighting a flying boss? Don't use earth attacks. Fighting a mechanical boss? Use lightning. Is this an issue? I don't think having esoteric strategies is the way to go in any game.

[Anteros]

Except, if they are going with an approach like FFXII, there is no dodging/blocking/etc. It's still just "press x", and I can easily see them going that route, because why would they adopt a battle system from another game series(even if it is theirs), when they can just adopt one from their own.

Thankfully, I'm fine with both to be honest, I enjoy turn-based, I also like the combat system from FFXII. I'm just hoping they don't change the game itself much, if any at all.

Oh gosh, I hope they aren't using XII. That has the be the most boring game in the series (my personal opinion obviously). Who thought 4 hour long boss fights where the game plays itself would be fun?

[Yuki Akuma]

Except, if they are going with an approach like FFXII, there is no dodging/blocking/etc. It's still just "press x", and I can easily see them going that route, because why would they adopt a battle system from another game series(even if it is theirs), when they can just adopt one from their own.

Thankfully, I'm fine with both to be honest, I enjoy turn-based, I also like the combat system from FFXII. I'm just hoping they don't change the game itself much, if any at all.

12 isn't what anyone would ever call an action RPG, though. At best, it's an MMO-style RPG.

[Zevox]

12 isn't what anyone would ever call an action RPG, though. At best, it's an MMO-style RPG.
This exactly. FF12's combat system really doesn't differ all that much from the normal ATB system - mostly it's the aesthetic view of having the fights take place on the actual map and allowing you to move the characters about, combined with the part where you can only directly control one character at a time (though since pausing and issuing commands while paused was a thing that mostly just means that controlling the entire party is more tedious than in the normal system). The core mechanics of selecting an action that will play out when the arbitrary timer fills up remains untouched, and that's what really defines that system, and what makes it not truly either an action-based or turn-based combat system, but a weird hybrid of the two.

[Starwulf]

Oh gosh, I hope they aren't using XII. That has the be the most boring game in the series (my personal opinion obviously). Who thought 4 hour long boss fights where the game plays itself would be fun?

You and I had very different experiences then ^^ I remember switching back n forth between characters as fast as I possibly could, issuing commands left and right. Especially against Gilgamesh. I remember I was nowhere near the point where I should be attempting him, but with bubble(i think that was the spell that doubles your hp) and another spell, that I was able to take him down in what I recall as a frantic fight for survival.

Honestly, unless FFXIII(i have it, but haven't played yet) has a live-action system as compared to what XII was, I'm not sure where they would be drawing from to turn FFVII remake into a live action one except from another series, which seems kinda dumb. I was actually thinking you all were referencing a system like XII's, not a full-bore action system of dodging and crap. If that's the case, I won't be touching the game, it's going to entirely ruin it ><

[DodgerH2O]

I'm okay with a more active battle system, as long as I can actually over-level my characters to the point where I don't have to mentally engage to win random battles. I haven't actually progressed very far in XIII because of the level cap. I'm sure I'm in the minority but i play FF games to over-level, find neat systems to optimize, and steamroll to the next bit of engaging plot.

The fact that FFVII gets a remake at all means more options for those who want to experience the game, so long as they don't put locks on leveling like XIII I'm likely to even play it again.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Like others have said, you also have to worry about positioning, timing, dodging, blocking, environmental hazards, etc. All of which is more immersive than FFVII's gameplay where you can literally turn the TV off, go make a sandwich, press X in between applying each condiment, and turn the TV back on to a victory screen.

You didn't play Crisis Core did you?

Costly Punch mash X win 99% of everything.

[Togath]

For those complaining of "taking mechanics from another series"...
You do realize one of the ff 13 spinoff games and ff 15 are using a Kingdom Hearts style battle system too, right?
Even if it just ends up like ff12, it seems like the company wants to take the series, remakes, new games, spinoffs, and all, in an action and/or real-time oriented direction.

[Aotrs Commander]

Well, I'd express diappointment (since this sort of system outs it squarely out of my gaming reach, unless it really is FFXII-ish), but I've not touched my PS2 in two or three years since the dining room telly wa pinched and we never got around to replacing it, so I've got tons of JRPGs I've never finished, icluding two I've never even played (three if I count World Ends with You on the DS which I'd forgotten I even had...)

Probably doesn't have a PC release even if I was bothered, come to that.

*shrug*

[ryuplaneswalker]

For those complaining of "taking mechanics from another series"...
You do realize one of the ff 13 spinoff games and ff 15 are using a Kingdom Hearts style battle system too, right?
Even if it just ends up like ff12, it seems like the company wants to take the series, remakes, new games, spinoffs, and all, in an action and/or real-time oriented direction.

I feel the need to defend the dislike of "taking the mechanics" in that instead of doing a remake that is true to the mechanics of the original, it looks they just took the FF15 engine and slapped FF7 paint on it. It is quite disappointing for those of us who don't like the new direction that the series is taking.

I would have been far less put off by a battle system like this in a New IP rather than them putting it in a Remake of a game that had fine game mechanics.

[Starwulf]

For those complaining of "taking mechanics from another series"...
You do realize one of the ff 13 spinoff games and ff 15 are using a Kingdom Hearts style battle system too, right?
Even if it just ends up like ff12, it seems like the company wants to take the series, remakes, new games, spinoffs, and all, in an action and/or real-time oriented direction.

I'm already un-interested in FFXV, it looks awful to me, and I've not even gotten around to playing the original FFXIII, let alone it's to sequels, and now that I know that, it's unlikely I ever will. I don't want my rpgs to be real-time action unless it's TES and games of it's ilk, and that's ONLY because you only control one person. Trying to control an entire party in full real-time action is not my idea of fun. I like my RPGS to be either turn-based, or a slight modifier of it like FFXII. Guess this will finally be the end of my fascination/love affair with the Final Fantasy series if they are going to go this route and stick with it.

[Anteros]

This thread is so dramatic. "If everything in this remake isn't exactly how I want it I'm giving up the franchise forever!"

C'mon guys.

[PhantomFox]

I guess it's more of a question as to what elements of FFVII and its battle system are core to its identity. If you ask me, it's materia and limit breaks.

[Rodin]

This thread is so dramatic. "If everything in this remake isn't exactly how I want it I'm giving up the franchise forever!"

C'mon guys.

In my case it's more that I already gave up the franchise forever, and this was their big chance to win me back.

The direction of the franchise has been going downhill since FFX, and I've yet to see any indication of that changing.

[danzibr]

I guess it's more of a question as to what elements of FFVII and its battle system are core to its identity. If you ask me, it's materia and limit breaks.
Great way to put it. I'm afraid the materia might be botched, but Limit Breaks could be even better.

I'm hoping we can freely switch between characters.

In my case it's more that I already gave up the franchise forever, and this was their big chance to win me back.

The direction of the franchise has been going downhill since FFX, and I've yet to see any indication of that changing.
There are a decent few which I dislike. For my opinion of X on

X: loved it.
X-2: liked it. Didn't grind enough, made things hard.
XI: n/a
XII: liked it. In fact, the combat system was good (keeping in mind it's *not* an ARPG). I would've loved it were it not for the mega bland characters.
XIII: it was alright.
XIII-2: bit better than XIII.
XIII-LR: loved it. So much fun.
XIV: n/a

So... while the main series certainly is stepping away from old school turn-based gameplay, for me it hasn't lost its fun.

[Knaight]

This thread is so dramatic. "If everything in this remake isn't exactly how I want it I'm giving up the franchise forever!"

C'mon guys.

It's really not that dramatic. There's a lot of good games out there, this one is in a very well supported genre, and people can be pretty picky while still having plenty of material for themselves. So, if the chips fall the right way on this one, it's an indication that the franchise might be worth taking a look at when picking games. If it doesn't, oh well, there's still plenty of other options.

[GloatingSwine]

Have to say though, some of the combat videos for FFXV look pretty fun.

It might end up being mashy, but at least it will be flashy whilst it's mashy.

[JadedDM]

Truly, I'm far more concerned how the remake is going to muck up the game's story than I am the mechanics. Remember, this game is being made by the new Square-Enix, the ones who brought us such gems as Genesis.

[Anteros]

Truly, I'm far more concerned how the remake is going to muck up the game's story than I am the mechanics. Remember, this game is being made by the new Square-Enix, the ones who brought us such gems as Genesis.

I doubt they touch the story much. I do expect some sort of optional post-game dungeon or easter egg where you can resurrect Aerith though.

[Talderas]

I don't understand why they're screwing with the formula.

FF7 is still the single best selling game in the franchise. 12 and 13 (their monkey hybrid battle systems) barely got that much combined.

Them majorly changing the combat formula makes me really, really nervous that they're going to feel at liberty to change OTHER things about the game. This is looking more and more like it's going to be a, "I'll just pull out and play the old one" instead.

I mean if you want to make a sequel and call it 7-2, sure, why not, new game. But don't go back and screw with a beloved game. I literally can't remember a single time that has turned out well.

The battle system/stat system for FF7 was not one of the best and in fact might be one of the worst. Of all the games, it is one of the worst offenders for spamming attack. Unlike other FF games where buffs/debuffs were useful to use it would just end up being a waste of your time committing actions and resources to casting those buffs/debuffs (unless you were exploiting the PS1 by opening the lid while having regen running for a full heal while combat paused). FF8 probably has one of the best balanced combat systems in the series (except for FF13) but it required too high of an overall system mastery of refining and junctioning, people were way too scared to use any magic they had junctioned to stats, to adequately leverage it combined with counter-intuitive leveling practices.

FF7 was really just favored by having an adequate story and being one of the first big RPG releases on the Playstation console. There's a tremendous amount of nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses regarding the game. Had the releases of FF7, FF8, and FF9 instead been FF9, FF7, FF8 then FF7 would not enjoy anywhere near the popularity it has. I nearly suggested that just flipping FF7 and FF9 would pale FF7 but then I realized the weak story in FF8 would probably serve to make FF7 look better.

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This exactly. FF12's combat system really doesn't differ all that much from the normal ATB system - mostly it's the aesthetic view of having the fights take place on the actual map and allowing you to move the characters about, combined with the part where you can only directly control one character at a time (though since pausing and issuing commands while paused was a thing that mostly just means that controlling the entire party is more tedious than in the normal system). The core mechanics of selecting an action that will play out when the arbitrary timer fills up remains untouched, and that's what really defines that system, and what makes it not truly either an action-based or turn-based combat system, but a weird hybrid of the two.

That's one way to look at it. FF12 also did a lot to make buffs a more valuable commodity than had been present in previous iterations since they could be automatically cast by the gambit system and with the map flowing directly into combat allows them to be prepped beforehand. The longer combats also directly aided in making buffs/debuffs more valuable by allowing them to actually run for a longer duration. It still runs into the same old issue of attack being the most optimal solution on average but it's a huge step forward. FF12 also makes more sense when you consider it in respect to FF13. They didn't go full on character control but they put in place a system that made it more viable for you to just play as a single character. In a way it's a stepping stone that bridged between the paradigm system of FF13 and the earlier games.

--


I guess it's more of a question as to what elements of FFVII and its battle system are core to its identity. If you ask me, it's materia and limit breaks.

Limit breaks aren't a unique feature to FF7. They're present in a lot of Final Fantasy games although they may not be called limit break and they may behave slightly differently. You can't even call multiple limit breaks a feature as FF8 used that as well. Materia isn't all that unique either. For the most part is a variation of the Esper system in FF6 except instead of equipping two Espers which alter your stats and cause you to learn spells after fighting so many encounters you get a bit more slots and materia only temporarily grant you the ability as long as you have it equipped. Materia that fell outside of that were either straight stat increases or could be parallel to ripping unique character abilities from FF6 and incorporating them into materia.

[GloatingSwine]

I doubt they touch the story much. I do expect some sort of optional post-game dungeon or easter egg where you can resurrect Aerith though.

I expect the story to be mangled almost beyond recognition by the need to be episodic.

[huttj509]

I expect the story to be mangled almost beyond recognition by the need to be episodic.

Because it's not like the first game had decent breaks in story between disks or anything.

Start to leaving Midgard: chunk 1
Proceed to Aerith's death: chunk 2
there to end: chunk 3

[Dragonus45]

Yes, the remakes are pretty much dead to me now.

[Zevox]

I don't want my rpgs to be real-time action unless it's TES and games of it's ilk, and that's ONLY because you only control one person. Trying to control an entire party in full real-time action is not my idea of fun.
:smallconfused: I have to say I'm completely baffled by how you'd do a real-time action game where you did control an entire party at once. That seems physically impossible. By its very nature you should only be able to make such a system work if you're only controlling one character.

The closest I can think of to a game that's even tried anything remotely like that is The World Ends With You, whose combat system is still completely unique, and even there the second screen could be left to an AI autopilot because of how difficult it was multitasking well enough to actually control both screens yourself.


FF12 also makes more sense when you consider it in respect to FF13. They didn't go full on character control but they put in place a system that made it more viable for you to just play as a single character. In a way it's a stepping stone that bridged between the paradigm system of FF13 and the earlier games.
Truth be told, I think FF13 doesn't differ much from the usual for Final Fantasy either. Again, the core ATB mechanics are preserved - what's been added is the mid-match class-swapping system and whatever that system where striking an enemy's weaknesses filled up a meter that resulted in them going into some kind of stun state or something was (it's been a long time since I played the game and I only played it once, so my memory of how exactly that worked or what it was called is very foggy). Which was a nice addition in my opinion, but really just an addition.

Honestly the fact that they made you control only one character and put your teammates under AI control was pretty arbitrary. I don't see any reason why they couldn't have had you control the entire party in that game, same as in the other FFs.

Oh, and there was the part where mp was removed and health recovery was altered significantly. That's a bigger difference, but not one in any way connected to FF12, or any other game, really.

[Mr.Moron]

Is this is a surprise? Turn based is niche now, menu-based turn based even more so. This ultra-high-budget banner AAA title. It had about much chance of having turn based elements as I do of marrying Marilyn Monroe. Something like the current X-COM is about as flashy & big budget a game as you can expect a turn based game to be, and even then only when the tactical turn play itself is the primary selling point of the game. For something like FF that sells on grandiose stories and spectacle you can be sure as hell they aren't slapping a dinosaur combat system on it.

It's been well over a decade since you could put a turn based system on a game as big, flashy, expensive and visible as something like the FF7 remake.

[GloatingSwine]

Because it's not like the first game had decent breaks in story between disks or anything.

Start to leaving Midgard: chunk 1
Proceed to Aerith's death: chunk 2
there to end: chunk 3


It kinda didn't. About 2/3 of the actual narrative was on disc 1, disc 2 was mostly side stuff whilst Cloud was inoperative, and most of disc 3 was full of the ending cutscene. (that cutscene file is about half the CD) This time the game is going to be split into 6-8 chunks though, maybe more, with more narrative breaks added to make the episode breaks feel "natural".

I fully expect the first episode to be Midgar because it's the first natural narrative break, but remember that that's maybe 10% of the actual content not a third.

Splitting the game up into content lumps like that you're probably looking at:

1. Midgar
2. Cloud's Flashback, Junon, first Jenova fight.
3. Mt. Corel, Gold Saucer, Cosmo Canyon, Shinra Mansion/Mt Nibel.
4. Get the Tiny Bronco, Wutai, Temple of the Ancients
5. Pursue Aeris up to her death.
6. Obtain Highwind, Huge Materia chase, restore Cloud's sanity.
7. Side bosses and North Crater.

Some of that might be bunched up or spread out, but I would bank on there being 6-8 episodes.

[Starwulf]

This thread is so dramatic. "If everything in this remake isn't exactly how I want it I'm giving up the franchise forever!"

C'mon guys.

That's not it at all for me, it's more that if they decide to permanently go with the real-time action set-up for all future Final Fantasies they'll lose me forever. Obviously if they don't I'll still happily buy future Final Fantasies, but if they do, yeah I'm done, I don't like real-time action and it is enough to make me stay away forever.

[ryuplaneswalker]

This thread is so dramatic. "If everything in this remake isn't exactly how I want it I'm giving up the franchise forever!"

C'mon guys.

I have already given up on the franchise, at least in a way other than "buy it years later in the used bin for five bucks and slog through it to see if I am wrong"

I am sad that when I heard "FF7 Remake" I was like "hey I can play a game I liked back in the day with some new graphics" like I did with Final Fantasy 4 which I don't get to do because the new battle system looks like the half arsed junk like 12.

[lord_khaine]

That's not it at all for me, it's more that if they decide to permanently go with the real-time action set-up for all future Final Fantasies they'll lose me forever. Obviously if they don't I'll still happily buy future Final Fantasies, but if they do, yeah I'm done, I don't like real-time action and it is enough to make me stay away forever.

Yeah, they have lost me as well on this. I though the mechanics we have seen on anything past FFX has been horribly boring, and mainly involed a lot of button smashing.
Whats honestly worse is that in the latest FF13 i found out that the most effective way to play were often just to press auto on the input command. The only choice there came were when to change paradigeme.

And i think its a shame. Because i do think there is still a market for turn-based tactical rpg's thats been largely ignored lately.

[Anteros]

That's a strange complaint considering XIII, XIII-2, XIII LR, and XV all require far more player interaction than games 1-10 combined (all of which you can beat while literally pressing no other button than X in combat). 11 and 14 were MMOs so they hardly count, and 12 was a stinker, but overall the gameplay has been moving in a positive direction for a while.

[Starwulf]

That's a strange complaint considering XIII, XIII-2, XIII LR, and XV all require far more player interaction than games 1-10 combined (all of which you can beat while literally pressing no other button than X in combat). 11 and 14 were MMOs so they hardly count, and 12 was a stinker, but overall the gameplay has been moving in a positive direction for a while.

XV hasn't been released, and I've already stated I have no interest in it, and I've also stated on this very thread I"ve not played XIII. And just because you CAN play a game by just hitting one button, doesn't mean people actually do it, and if you do, that's on you, not me. I've had loads of fun with turn-based rpgs and I've never just mindlessly mashed attack in ANY of them, not even when I was a 6 year old playing Dragon Warrior.

[Anteros]

I wasn't actually responding to you there, but I can see why you'd think it. :smallbiggrin:

There's nothing wrong with liking turn based games though. There's quite a few that I like, such as FFX although I do find the combat tedious after a while. I just don't understand how someone can like them, but also accuse other games of being repetitive.

[Mr.Moron]

XV hasn't been released, and I've already stated I have no interest in it, and I've also stated on this very thread I"ve not played XIII. And just because you CAN play a game by just hitting one button, doesn't mean people actually do it, and if you do, that's on you, not me. I've had loads of fun with turn-based rpgs and I've never just mindlessly mashed attack in ANY of them, not even when I was a 6 year old playing Dragon Warrior.

I think another point is that there hasn't been in a true turn based FF in about 15 years. You may as well be saying you won't buy the new Call of Duty because it isn't set in World War 2, that the next Legend of Zelda is a pass because of 3D graphics, or you aren't gonna give the next Sonic a try because he has too many darned animal friends. OK. Fine preferences and certainly a common onein the case of the Sonic example. However they're just not terribly relevant considering that's been the status quo for these games for a long time.

If someone doesn't want to tune into the new popular sitcom on TV because hey they want new episodes of F*R*I*E*N*D*S, OK guess? The turn based FF was already a relic before a healthy portion of people who are going to play the current crop of upcoming FF games were even born. I mean I would have been all over this subject back in high school myself. It just seems like a really odd bone to picking at this juncture.

[Starwulf]

I think another point is that there hasn't been in a true turn based FF in about 15 years. You may as well be saying you won't buy the new Call of Duty because it isn't set in World War 2, that the next Legend of Zelda is a pass because of 3D graphics, or you aren't gonna give the next Sonic a try because he has too many darned animal friends. OK. Fine preferences and certainly a common onein the case of the Sonic example. However they're just not terribly relevant considering that's been the status quo for these games for a long time.

If someone doesn't want to tune into the new popular sitcom on TV because hey they want new episodes of F*R*I*E*N*D*S, OK guess? The turn based FF was already a relic before a healthy portion of people who are going to play the current crop of upcoming FF games were even born. I mean I would have been all over this subject back in high school myself. It just seems like a really odd bone to picking at this juncture.

FF1-10, 12 were all turn-based or a moderate variation on them. I've already stated I haven't played XIII, I will admit to being totally unaware that it's more of a real-time action game. Soo, no I don't think you can say turn-based FF's are relics that haven't been around in 15 years, especially when only the last core entry is where they started to significantly change up the battle system. And I"d thank you to please not mock me for having a certain preference of game and sticking to that preference, especially on a thread about a remake of a game that originally had a turn-based mechanic. Just because you're ok with it, doesn't mean I am, and I have just as much of a right to voice my preference as others do, but I also have a right to not be mocked for said preference ><

[Knaight]

:smallconfused: I have to say I'm completely baffled by how you'd do a real-time action game where you did control an entire party at once. That seems physically impossible. By its very nature you should only be able to make such a system work if you're only controlling one character.

Something like RTS micro with the micro heavy units could work, and that's just one possibility.

[Mr.Moron]

FF1-10, 12 were all turn-based or a moderate variation on them. I've already stated I haven't played XIII, I will admit to being totally unaware that it's more of a real-time action game. Soo, no I don't think you can say turn-based FF's are relics that haven't been around in 15 years, especially when only the last core entry is where they started to significantly change up the battle system. And I"d thank you to please not mock me for having a certain preference of game and sticking to that preference, especially on a thread about a remake of a game that originally had a turn-based mechanic. Just because you're ok with it, doesn't mean I am, and I have just as much of a right to voice my preference as others do, but I also have a right to not be mocked for said preference ><

I wouldn't really call FF12 turn based, at least not in the classic FF sense. That leaves FF10 which released in 2001 - 15 Years ago. Even if we count FF12 that was released in 2006 still a decade in the past. Nobody is mocking you it's just FF is not currently a turn-based RPG series, it has not been one for a very long time and it likely will never be one again in the future. Further turn-based RPGs are just going to be a non-starter with anything even 1/2 the budget of mainline FF game these days.

It's not like the world is lacking for turn based jRPGs. The megaten games are certainly still a thing, dragon quest is still a thing. I'm going to be happily picking up Persona 5 myself. It's just that FF is a very odd series to be expecting or even hoping for turn based menu combat.

[Knaight]

It's not like the world is lacking for turn based jRPGs. The megaten games are certainly still a thing, dragon quest is still a thing. I'm going to be happily picking up Persona 5 myself. It's just that FF is a very odd series to be expecting or even hoping for turn based menu combat.

Generally, this would be true. However, there are two points against this.
1) The big one: FF7 is a remake. Remakes routinely demonstrate older styles of design elsewhere, so for it it's a real possibility.
2) It still crops up from time to time. There have been the recent re-releases of older games with turn based menu combat intact, there was the record keeper spinoff with its turn based menu combat, etc.

[Zevox]

FF1-10, 12 were all turn-based or a moderate variation on them. I've already stated I haven't played XIII, I will admit to being totally unaware that it's more of a real-time action game.
FF13 is very much not a real-time action game. It's exactly as close to being a turn-based one as FFs 4-9 were - which is to say, it's not, it's using the series standard ATB system, which is kind of a hybrid of turn-based and real-time. But in any case, not an action game by any stretch.

I have heard that Lightning Returns took the gameplay in that direction, but can't speak to how true that is because I never felt any desire to play the sequels to 13.


Something like RTS micro with the micro heavy units could work, and that's just one possibility.
But that wouldn't be an action game, it would be an RTS or a spin-off of RTS of some sort.

[Talderas]

FF13 is very much not a real-time action game. It's exactly as close to being a turn-based one as FFs 4-9 were - which is to say, it's not, it's using the series standard ATB system, which is kind of a hybrid of turn-based and real-time. But in any case, not an action game by any stretch.

FF13 is weird. The AI characters all act on an ATB basis. The player character is stuck in a state somewhere between an MMO with a GCD and the ATB system. Combat itself focused around causing staggers so that targets took more damage for a period of time as well as ensuring you had the correct paradigm at the time to accomplish either the stagger or survive the target. Paradigm shifts themselves had little to no cooldown and were independent of the ATB aspect. In general, I found that I spent roughly 50% of my actions in combat paradigm shifting and the other 50% were spent leveraging the action bar system in advantageous ways and even though my action split is about 50/50 the importance of proper paradigm setup and paradigm switching was probably about 75-80% of effective combat. Switching to SEN-SEN-SEN because the boss is about to smack you hard. Starting out as SYN-SAB-SAB to start the battle buffing your guys while the AI debuffs the targets. Switch to RAV-RAV-RAV to quickly build up the stagger bar and then COM-COM-COM after he's staggered for massive damage. Having 6 action bars and telling your COM character to Attackx6 but cancelling after the fifth attack to preserve the bar but end up with a higher dps because you're avoiding the longer animation 6th hit. Leveraging Sazh as a COM against a single target and using his Blitz because it deals 12 attacks split among all targets instead of hitting all targets in an area (En- spells + Sazh blitz is amazing). There are a lot of cool tricks you can do in the system involving timing and the stagger bar. You can't fixate solely on the actions the characters take when discussing how real time a system operates. In that sense, FF13 and FF13-2 are the most real time oriented of the FF games I've played with the possible exception of Lightning Return.

You made an earlier post about the AI controlled characters seeming arbitrary but it basically has to do with the fact that the AI in FF13 is phenomenal. It's auto-actions are based on the strengths/weaknesses of the target although those strengths/weaknesses must first be discovered. For the most part all the roles operate pretty damn good under AI (auto-battle) control. The one that fares the poorest is, perhaps unsurprisingly, synergist with all the buffs and either giving you useless buffs (shell against targets that only deal physical damage) or failing to give the buffs you may want. Perhaps also unsurprising is that the saboteur role functions better under AI control since it rarely ever chains buffs together in an action sequence which it's far more efficient at action/target selection than the player can be. Sentinel is a fairly boring job for the player to control and if the player is controlling SEN it is almost always part of a SEN-SEN-SEN paradigm. Ravager is pretty safe in the AI hands and the AI will focus on your last target. The only issue the AI has on medic tends to be with using the wrong kinds of heals. Commando is the second worst for the AI mostly because there's enough nuances in that role that the AI simply can't grasp, like the aforementioned trick with Sazh, and they focus on maintaining stagger which splits focus on multiple characters even when a focused commando barrage could actually kill stuff pretty quickly without stagger.

Lightning Returns features you playing Lightning and only lightning but you have three outfits equipped that you can freely switch between in combat. Each outfit has a number of action points and each action requires AP to execute. All outfits constantly regenerate AP but the active outfit regenerates more slowly than the inactive outfits. So you exhaust your AP with one outfit and switch to a fresh one to allow the first to regenerate AP faster. There are also passive benefits that you can leverage in outfits so sometimes you might just want to switch to an outfit that has a high M.Def to take a magic hit or something like that.

[Mr.Moron]

Generally, this would be true. However, there are two points against this.
1) The big one: FF7 is a remake. Remakes routinely demonstrate older styles of design elsewhere, so for it it's a real possibility.
2) It still crops up from time to time. There have been the recent re-releases of older games with turn based menu combat intact, there was the record keeper spinoff with its turn based menu combat, etc.

These are valid points, but I don't think they're terribly strong ones. All those remakes have been either small low-res hand held projects, basically just ports with a new script, or 2d mobile games. If they were doing "FF7 - ChibiSprites Edition for iPhone & iPad" then sure, they might stick with the old combat system.

This is a new banner release with a multi-hundred-million dollar price tag, they're not going throw a weight around it's neck that is a mid-90s game mechanics. This might be a remake but it's being given the full new release with the budget that demands and the modern game play conventions that come with it. This is a project as big and as new as FF15 if not more so.

[Alanzeign]

What you consider a weight around the neck, many people that played the original found to be a core element of the game. They might call this a remake, but it appears to me to be a completely different genre from the original. Worse, for me, it is a genre of game I have no interest in playing.

I was at first excited to hear about an FFVII remake after FFXV looked to be moving into territory that is alien to my interests. Seriously, controlling one character in an ARPG is fine, but controlling one character with a party that does its own thing? I'm not interested in that in the least. It's even worse than an MMO, because the AI can't learn or take commands well (and you don't get the social aspect of an MMO, which is what makes it tolerable for me).

I'll watch someone else play FFXV, but unless I find the party control options exceedingly well done, I'll most likely skip this entry. Unfortunately, since FFVII looks to be going in the exact same direction, I'll be skipping that one too.

It's not being dramatic. It's just a shame that the series has departed from its roots so much that I no longer even want to play it, let alone being excited about it. I'm sure the graphics and music of both will be excellent, and perhaps the story will be as well. Again, it's unfortunate that the gameplay divergence will keep me from playing. I see people saying it's been 15 years since ATB combat, but I disagree, since FFXII, FFXIII, and FFXIII-2 are very much variations on ATB. Also, there have only been 2 non-MMO Final Fantasy games released in 15 years (counting the 13 trilogy as one, though they are quite distinct). So rather than 15 years, I would say 2 games, 4 at the most.

I look forward to seeing both. I don't expect I would enjoy playing them, and certainly won't be buying a PS4 for them.

[DiscipleofBob]

While X is my favorite Final Fantasy game of all time, with VI being a close second, in my opinion there hasn't been a game worthy of the name Final Fantasy since X. Now I admittedly liked X-2 and XIII from a guilty pleasure sort of perspective, but I can't honestly call them good games. XII I hated pretty much everything about from the plot to the gameplay, and I haven't played XI or XIV but the whole MMO aspect pretty much kills it for me.

Calling this a remake but changing the core mechanic to an entirely different genre reinforces the idea for me that Squarenix has no idea what they're doing, or why an HD remake of FF7 was desired in the first place.

FF7 wasn't perfect, but it wasn't bad either. I'd call it simultaneously overrated and underrated at the same time. The ATB system is possibly the worst iteration of RPG turn-based combat (I vastly prefer something like X's or Tactics' system, but even the basic initiative from the first games is preferable) but changing it to something that looks like an unlockable level of Devil May Cry ignores what propelled RPGs like the Final Fantasy series into video game history.

[Aotrs Commander]

What you consider a weight around the neck, many people that played the original found to be a core element of the game. They might call this a remake, but it appears to me to be a completely different genre from the original. Worse, for me, it is a genre of game I have no interest in playing.

I was at first excited to hear about an FFVII remake after FFXV looked to be moving into territory that is alien to my interests. Seriously, controlling one character in an ARPG is fine, but controlling one character with a party that does its own thing? I'm not interested in that in the least. It's even worse than an MMO, because the AI can't learn or take commands well (and you don't get the social aspect of an MMO, which is what makes it tolerable for me).

I'll watch someone else play FFXV, but unless I find the party control options exceedingly well done, I'll most likely skip this entry. Unfortunately, since FFVII looks to be going in the exact same direction, I'll be skipping that one too.

It's not being dramatic. It's just a shame that the series has departed from its roots so much that I no longer even want to play it, let alone being excited about it. I'm sure the graphics and music of both will be excellent, and perhaps the story will be as well. Again, it's unfortunate that the gameplay divergence will keep me from playing. I see people saying it's been 15 years since ATB combat, but I disagree, since FFXII, FFXIII, and FFXIII-2 are very much variations on ATB. Also, there have only been 2 non-MMO Final Fantasy games released in 15 years (counting the 13 trilogy as one, though they are quite distinct). So rather than 15 years, I would say 2 games, 4 at the most.

I look forward to seeing both. I don't expect I would enjoy playing them, and certainly won't be buying a PS4 for them.

Well, in the last 15 years or so, the gaming industry has drastically changed, and largely not for the better, since all the big companies have gotten progressively worse in emphasising money as the paragon aim. This is just one more example of it.

In my opinion, FF peaked at FFX (ironically when it was at it's most turn-based). And I can damn near garentee we won't see the like of that sort of mechanic again in the current environment...

[Zevox]

You can't fixate solely on the actions the characters take when discussing how real time a system operates. In that sense, FF13 and FF13-2 are the most real time oriented of the FF games I've played with the possible exception of Lightning Return.
Since this strikes me as the thrust of your post, and the part most directly relevant to what you were responding to, I'm going to answer it. There's a difference between simply being real-time and being an action game. Every ATB game is real-time - turns require you to wait in between them and if you don't take them when they're offered, your opponents aren't just going to wait around, they'll keep taking their turns as they come up. (I think there was an option to disable that and force your enemies to not take more than 1 turn between yours in the FF4 remake I played, but that was optional, and abnormal for the system in my experience.) That doesn't change the fact that mechanically, you're taking turns and picking actions off a menu, not directly controlling your characters.

Actual action games involve direct control of your character in combat in real time. God of War, the Batman: Arkham series, Bayonetta, that sort of thing. Final Fantasy 13 is nothing remotely like those.

[Dragonus45]

Is this is a surprise? Turn based is niche now, menu-based turn based even more so. This ultra-high-budget banner AAA title. It had about much chance of having turn based elements as I do of marrying Marilyn Monroe. Something like the current X-COM is about as flashy & big budget a game as you can expect a turn based game to be, and even then only when the tactical turn play itself is the primary selling point of the game. For something like FF that sells on grandiose stories and spectacle you can be sure as hell they aren't slapping a dinosaur combat system on it.

It's been well over a decade since you could put a turn based system on a game as big, flashy, expensive and visible as something like the FF7 remake.

Turn based is not niche, and never has been. At some point the people in charge declared it niche and stop making the games but the market for them never left as shown by games like Bravely Default blowing sales out of the water. n

[Sholos]

Turn based is not nice, and never has been. At some point the people in charge declared it niche and stop making the games but the market for them never left as shown by games like Bravely Default blowing sales out of the water. n

I don't know. If you want to actually control a party it's pretty convenient. And some of my favorite games have been turn based. And not in spite of it. FFX honestly had my favorite battle system of the lot (shame about the story).

[Grif]

Turn based is not nice, and never has been. At some point the people in charge declared it niche and stop making the games but the market for them never left as shown by games like Bravely Default blowing sales out of the water. n


I don't know. If you want to actually control a party it's pretty convenient. And some of my favorite games have been turn based. And not in spite of it. FFX honestly had my favorite battle system of the lot (shame about the story).

I think he means turn-based is "not niche". :smalltongue:

[Sholos]

I think he means turn-based is "not niche". :smalltongue:

That's one heck of a typo, then. XD

[Starwulf]

That's one heck of a typo, then. XD

I'll have to agree that it's a typo, and really not a big one, nice/niche, he missed an H. Reading the tone of his post definitely indicates that he was in favor of turn-based rpgs and not against.

[Sholos]

I'll have to agree that it's a typo, and really not a big one, nice/niche, he missed an H. Reading the tone of his post definitely indicates that he was in favor of turn-based rpgs and not against.

I meant in meaning, and I am terrible at reading tone.

[Dragonus45]

Yea, that was a pretty stupid typo but in my defense I was alt tabbed out of a league game waiting on my death timer.

[danzibr]

Just read something which could be awesome or blow.

We've known for a while that we're not getting the whole game at once. What I just learned is it'll come out in 3 full-length games, like FFXIII (this was the analogy given). If all our levels and materia and crap get reset from game to game, I'll be profoundly disappointed.

[Starwulf]

Just read something which could be awesome or blow.

We've known for a while that we're not getting the whole game at once. What I just learned is it'll come out in 3 full-length games, like FFXIII (this was the analogy given). If all our levels and materia and crap get reset from game to game, I'll be profoundly disappointed.

Wow, I didn't know that at all. Makes me even more glad I'm not interested in playing it anymore. Why in the world would they split the game into 3 parts? Besides being greedy sonsabritches that is, because I really can't think of a single legit reason they would do that.

Way to ruin a classic, beloved franchise Squeenix.

[Rodin]

Yeah, the original game had a compact enough story to fit into a single game, which means that splitting it into three means that the games will either be really small...or they'll be filled with bloated extra crap (Golden Saucer now mandatory!)...or they'll add masses of additional plot in the middle of the script, similar to how the Hobbit movies were handled.

Whichever way it is, that pretty much seals it for me. The games will have to get God-like reviews for me to even give them a chance at this point.

[Mr.Moron]

Wow, I didn't know that at all. Makes me even more glad I'm not interested in playing it anymore. Why in the world would they split the game into 3 parts? Besides being greedy sonsabritches that is, because I really can't think of a single legit reason they would do that.

Way to ruin a classic, beloved franchise Squeenix.

How hard have you thought about the question? Did you honestly ask this of your self, spend some real time looking into the project and considering current market conditions exhaustively, before concluding that the only possible explanation for splitting it must be a totally irrational desire to screw over players? Or did you hear some news you didn't immediately like then jump to a conclusion based on your emotional reaction and then post the question rhetorically as a way to be snarky without actually giving the possible motivations behind the move any serious consideration?

[danzibr]

I for one am glad it's going to be massive. I'd love to see Midgar in all its grungy glory.

But again I'll be disappointed if stuff gets reset. If I grind for hours outside Chocobo Farm to take on Midgar Zorom, I don't want to lose that whenever disc 1 ends.

[Starwulf]

How hard have you thought about the question? Did you honestly ask this of your self, spend some real time looking into the project and considering current market conditions exhaustively, before concluding that the only possible explanation for splitting it must be a totally irrational desire to screw over players? Or did you hear some news you didn't immediately like then jump to a conclusion based on your emotional reaction and then post the question rhetorically as a way to be snarky without actually giving the possible motivations behind the move any serious consideration?

Better question: Do you have to be counter-snark and annoying to anyone who disagrees with design decisions to the remake of a game that they loved when they were younger? Yes, I thought about it, and it makes no sense to me whatsoever. The original game was nowhere near large enough to be split into three parts, hell it wasn't even remotely the largest game released for the PS1 back in the day, so there is, logically, no reason for them to split it into three parts besides greed. Now please stop responding to my posts, you are irritating beyond measure.


I for one am glad it's going to be massive. I'd love to see Midgar in all its grungy glory.

But again I'll be disappointed if stuff gets reset. If I grind for hours outside Chocobo Farm to take on Midgar Zorom, I don't want to lose that whenever disc 1 ends.

That goes with the assumption that they are actually going to add significant amounts of new content instead of just splitting the existing content into three separate games.

[danzibr]

That goes with the assumption that they are actually going to add significant amounts of new content instead of just splitting the existing content into three separate games.
Absolutely true. I'd feel so ripped off if they had the exact same game but thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread. Maybe we won't see any sectors other than 5 or 7, and I'd be fine with that, but if they didn't add any content anywhere...?

Oh right, on the topic of adding content, I'm down with that.

[Starwulf]

Absolutely true. I'd feel so ripped off if they had the exact same game but thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread. Maybe we won't see any sectors other than 5 or 7, and I'd be fine with that, but if they didn't add any content anywhere...?

Oh right, on the topic of adding content, I'm down with that.

It would have to be a fairly massive amount of content to stretch it to 3 separate games, and at that point it wouldn't really be FFVII anymore, would it? I mean, I guess they could add enough content to make the first two encompass the original, maybe give you a significant more open-world roaming around the time of the Casino, and then the third could encompass the events of Advent Children, but.....given their recent history, I just don't honestly see it. I'll admit to being wrong if they do it, but I honestly doubt it's going to happen. If they did though, it would almost(almost! but not quite) be enough for me to look past the idiotic real time action bit(assuming they don't go with a system more akin to XII, in which case I'd be back on the bandwagon).

[Anteros]

Let's be serious. The plot parts of FFVII wouldn't cover even a single top tier RPG these days. It was always pretty sparse on plot, and mostly filler. They're obviously adding some sort of content.

[Grif]

They're obviously adding some sort of content.

One can only hope. I, for one, prefer to keep my expectations low and be pleasantly surprised later.

[Starwulf]

Let's be serious. The plot parts of FFVII wouldn't cover even a single top tier RPG these days. It was always pretty sparse on plot, and mostly filler. They're obviously adding some sort of content.

I think at this point they need to unveil exactly how they are handling splitting it into three parts. I've spent an hour or so trying to find information about it, and most of it comes from back in December, or 4 days ago, and none of it says anything specific. The stuff from 4 days says they are handling it more like FFXIII, so more "full-game"ish, but they still haven't said if they are adding significant content, or just patchwork here and there, or what. They really shouldn't rely on the hype of there being a remake for too much longer, or they'll start to alienate the fanbase.

[Anteros]

One can only hope. I, for one, prefer to keep my expectations low and be pleasantly surprised later.

I prefer to stay optimistic for now. It's just a video game, not life or death. If it's bad I won't buy it and move on.

[danzibr]

It would have to be a fairly massive amount of content to stretch it to 3 separate games, and at that point it wouldn't really be FFVII anymore, would it? I mean, I guess they could add enough content to make the first two encompass the original, maybe give you a significant more open-world roaming around the time of the Casino, and then the third could encompass the events of Advent Children, but.....given their recent history, I just don't honestly see it. I'll admit to being wrong if they do it, but I honestly doubt it's going to happen. If they did though, it would almost(almost! but not quite) be enough for me to look past the idiotic real time action bit(assuming they don't go with a system more akin to XII, in which case I'd be back on the bandwagon).
In my mind, I'm thinking Xenogears ep. I v. Xenoblade Chronicles X.

Now, I haven't beaten Xenoblade Chronicles X yet (about 60 hours in), but a lot of people are saying plot-wise it would be what Xenogears ep. I could have been. Now, it's radically different from what's stated in Perfect Works, and radically different from Xenosaga, but it's very fun and I'm excited to see what happens.

The thing I try to keep in mind is that it's a reMAKE. Not a remaster or something. They're making it over. I expect what hits the shelves will be very different from the VII we know and love. And I'm okay with that. Maybe it'll suck, maybe not. Honestly, there are several things in FFVII I wouldn't mind being changed.

[PsyBomb]

On the original topic, I rather loved KH:BBS's setup and it seems the most likely way this will be handled. Maybe KHII, with the command swapping, if you get your Materia set right.

As for the releases, I'm VERY much hoping it's going to have expanded exploration with the new plots from the other games/sequels integrated (and Yuffie/Vincent in the main line, rather than optional). There is a TON of extras there to use, probably enough to account for the massive expansion of scope. I'm also hoping that there is an optional reversion to ATB or turn-based, but I realize that it isn't likely (and do remember that the original game had a setting that stopped the ATB bars while you took a turn, effectively making it fully turn-based)