New to Pathfinder

[ZamielVanWeber]

Played 3.5 for years, but new to Pathfinder.

Rolled some awesome stats: 11, 13, 14, 16, 16, 17.

I have some ideas but what I know for certain is that:

I want to try a class that is unique to Pathfinder (no wizard, cleric, sorcerer, etc.) and have full casting without being too overpowering (less casting in favor of spiffy class features is fine). Partial casting will be fine if it comes with some awesome class features (although I am not interested to being particularly good at melee, so unless magus has got something super cool not really interested).

3rd party should be okay, except for psionics and no Unchained.

[Manyasone]

Spheres of Power is a very unique way of casting. I suggest you check it out

[Geddy2112]

Sounds like you should go oracle. Basically, a divine sorcerer. You have a mystery instead of a bloodline, which gives you cool powers you can pick and choose as you level up, as well as bonus spells known. They do better as a melee backup as they can cast in armor, and some mysteries give proficiency with martial weapons, heavy armor, and similar combat related things.

They cast and use mystery powers off charisma, so make it one of your high stats. Will is a good save so you can dump wisdom. Strength can be high if you want melee otherwise dump. Dex and con are always important, and intelligence depends on how many skill ranks you want. They start with 4/level so you don't need to make it too high. With your rolls I would go

Str:14
Dex:16
Con:16
Int:13
Wis:11
Cha:17

[Necromancy]

Alch or summoner

[ZamielVanWeber]

Alch or summoner

Doesn't summoner have a reputation for being particularly broken?

Also I think the DM doesn't realize SoP exists.

Oracle looks cool. I was thinking maybe a Kitsune Nine-Tailed Mystic archetype if I went that way.

[LTwerewolf]

It's no more broken than a wizard or cleric, people just have an adverse reaction because it caps at 6th level casting but the spells in those 6 levels are higher level than they usually are. They're basically a 9th spell level caster in disguise. Once you accept that, they're fine. Less broken than druids, which get the same types of spells, a companion, and more.

[ZamielVanWeber]

How good is synthesist? I know I said no melee, but how good is synthesist summoner?

[Necromancy]

It's solid. Go for it

[Da Beast]

Check out witch if you haven't yet. Full arcane caster (int focused) that gets a number of useful hexes (at will abilities) for debuffing and utility.

[LTwerewolf]

Think of synthesist kind of like iron man (especially if you get yourself a wand of scorching ray).

[Pex]

It's no more broken than a wizard or cleric, people just have an adverse reaction because it caps at 6th level casting but the spells in those 6 levels are higher level than they usually are. They're basically a 9th spell level caster in disguise. Once you accept that, they're fine. Less broken than druids, which get the same types of spells, a companion, and more.

They cast Haste as a 2nd level spell, so even though they get the spell around the same time as wizards they can cast it more often due to having more 2nd level spell slots than 3rd level spell slots and being a spontaneous caster. I've experienced it in play. It makes a difference. They get Teleport as a 4th level spell. It's fine they get it around the same time as wizard. The problem is they can make a wand of it. The Unchained Summoner spell list was "fixed". Haste is a 3rd level spell again, Teleport 5th. They also nerfed the Eidolon a bit.

[LTwerewolf]

They cast Haste as a 2nd level spell, so even though they get the spell around the same time as wizards they can cast it more often due to having more 2nd level spell slots than 3rd level spell slots and being a spontaneous caster. I've experienced it in play. It makes a difference. They get Teleport as a 4th level spell. It's fine they get it around the same time as wizard. The problem is they can make a wand of it. The Unchained Summoner spell list was "fixed". Haste is a 3rd level spell again, Teleport 5th. They also nerfed the Eidolon a bit.

These aren't significant problems. 5 2nd level slots at 12. Same as a specialized wizard gets in 3rd level slots (but a level earlier at 11). At 6th level a summoner can cast haste 3 times. At 6th level a specialist wizard can cast haste 3 times. If you're seeing a significant difference here, then it's in their ability scores, not base spells. It costs slightly less to wand. Still meh. Spending actions on haste makes things more fun for the other people since it makes them better too. I much prefer this over the wizard saying "don't worry guys, your initiative doesn't matter because they failed a save." Emphasizing teamwork is a good thing, not a problem.

They're also teleporting a level later than wizards. Again for specialist wizards it's the same number. I've never found a wand of teleport to be game breaking at any point. It's not like teleport needs to be used 8 times per day. If it absolutely needs to be used that many times in a day, the dm generally gives a way for them to do it anyhow, rather than just saying "whoops, you didn't have enough teleports, oh well." It's more expensive, but wizards can have as many teleports as they want with scrolls, so it's not like it's something wizards can't do. You can also make a wondrous item with charges, not call it a wand, but still pay effectively wand prices. For a little over double, they can have it at will with a command word item. Being able to do that doesn't make wizards any more broken than they were, I'm not sure why that applies to summoners only.

But let's look at these a different way, shall we? A summoner at 6th level can cast 7 spells before ability bonuses. The wizard is casting 8 (10 with specialization with 4 different cantrips. At 20, the summoner is casting 30 spells before ability bonuses. The wizard is casting 40 (49 if specialized) plus 4 at will cantrips every day. I'm unsure as to how summoners have the casting advantage here. The summoner also doesn't have the versatility since they have limited spells known. People complain about them being more broken than wizards when it pretty objectively isn't the case. All of this is before considering that the wizard spell list has far more heinous things on it. Druids can be compared pretty easily to summoners, since druids have a companion as well. The difference is the druid companion is arguably weaker, but the druid also can summon things while their companion is around. The druid still has more spells than the summoner, and while the summoner can eventually be a fighting badass by turning into their eidolon, the druid's been doing for a lot longer.


The eidolon "nerf" wasn't as much of a nerf, and more relieving bookkeeping from the dm when the summoner completely changes their eidolon every level. If you look at a few of the unchained, they pretty much have the stuff summoners would have taken anyhow.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, if you're into gishes then the Magus is a good choice. It can cast and attack in the same turn right from level one, and has a lot of versatility.

[Krazzman]

Solid classes that are unique to Pathfinder:
Arcanist (Basically a Hybrid of Wizard and Sorcerer)
Alchemist
Bloodrager (Hybrid Barbarian/Sorcerer [but has Paladin Casting and will be melee...])
Hunter (cool Hybrid of Ranger and Druid)
Inquisitor (Archery is fine with them)
Magus
Oracle
Shaman (Cleric and Witch Hybrid)
Summoner (the Unchained variant is the "unbroken" one)
Warpriest (Cleric and Paladin Hybrid)
Witch

Sadly I can only say a few things about some of these classes (yet to try the others out).
Magus is awesome but certainly focused on Melee. Casting touch spells to deliver them through his weapon basically giving him one-weapon-two-weapon-fighting.
Inquisitor is a really cool class that sadly misses some spells on his list. (Looking at some buff spells) But else you get basically a skillmonkey cleric with a more "inquisitive" flair. You can make a solid archer or a solid melee out of them thanks to their class abilities.
Oracles are cool. They can be good melee fighters with the right mysteries. Never seen someone try an archery one but it could work afaik. They probably make some of the best (if not the best) healers in the game, especially if you play an Oradin (there's a guide by grarrrrg [hope I spelled that right...]).
Witches are Debuffing/Buffing full casters with some helpful healing spells thrown in. Flavor and Crunch are (at least as far as I can tell) on spot for them. Their Hexes give them some really cool and thematic bonuses/abilities.

Hope this helps. As I said, I haven't played the others yet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd go for an Alchemist or Investigator. I played an Investigator and it was a blast; Alchemy felt surprisingly different than normal magic in-game. Either that or maybe check out the Occult classes; Pazio finally seemed willing to mechanically innovate there. I'm playing a Medium now and it's very cool, sort of like a simpler-but-more-effective Binder.

[GrayDeath]

Fluffwise I`d go Witch or Oracle.

Eficiencywise with Magus or Arcanist.

@ Summoner/Wizard Debate. Summoner is laugheable broken because it requires so little effort to in effect have 2 Characters that outstrip a fighter (Eidolon) and challenge a Wizard.
Can a High Level Wizard with lots of time still ground him to paste? Easily. But thats mere theory. I ahve played in many groups with (sometimes very opti mized) wizards without problems,a s a certain amount of common sense and lack of free time prevented the worst, but both campaigns with summoners in them ended up banning it.
Save yourself the hazzle.

[charcoalninja]

If you're a Dragonball Z fan I recommend:

A Samsaran Synethist summoner.
Samsaran's have a racial that lets you poach spells from other lists. So you use it to take Mage Armour/Magic Missile Scorching Ray and Fireball and add them to your summoner list.

Now you have a character that powers up to fly, beat the crap out of things with incredible AC and blast with the iconic magey nukes. You can walk around with your summon all day as basically Majin Vegeta using Haste and Displacement to go Super Saiyan and annihilate people. Grab Dimensional Dervish feat line at high level for iconic teleport fighting.

I dip Crossblooded Sorcerer (Dragon / Orc) for the +2 / damage die nukes and no need to use my summoner slots on things like Mage Armour or for utility magic.

It's a crapload of fun.

Edit: Magical Lineage Scorching Ray to make Empowered Scorching Ray only take a 3rd slot. Caps at 18d6+36 damage which is sensational.

[Ualaa]

How good is synthesist? I know I said no melee, but how good is synthesist summoner?

If you min-max a Synthesist you have what a lot of people will consider a broken build. The majority of Pathfinder games use the point buy, and a player with this archetype will frequently give themselves penalties to two or three of their physical scores, since those scores are replaced with the form of the eidolon you become. They can then have greatly increased mental scores, in particular a very high Charisma which powers their spellcasting.

Having already rolled your stats, and not going with a ridiculous stat array, that's a good thing. People won't look at your build and say, it's broken because you have massive mental stats and no physical stats, but get strong physical stats and have the equivalent of a 40-point buy.



The other Summoner build that many consider broken is the Master Summoner, as you can place multiple summons at once and that can bog down play. If it takes you longer for your turn, plus the turns of your nine summoned creatures, than it does for the rest of the party to take their turns, something is wrong.



As a non-Synthesist, whether you go Master Summoner or not, summoning is a major strength of the class. Having a kick ass Eidolon is another strength, although you cannot have both out at the same time. Your summons are Standard Actions, while almost everyone else's are full-round actions. So you can summon and then move, and have your newly arriving creature act in the current round.

Spell Focus Conjuration > Augment Summoning > Superior Summoning is a strong feat chain for you (assuming you don't go Synthesist, since you cannot have your summons out with your permanent-Eidolon synthesist with you. Augment Summons gets your creatures a +4 enhancement to Str & Con, while Superior Summoning adds an additional creature, when summoning more than one creature. You can summon one creature, if you pick the highest type a given spell can summon, or D3 (becoming D3+1) if you use your Monster Summoning III to summon a Monster Summoning II creature, or D4+1 (becoming D4+2) if you use your spell to summon a creature two or more ranks further back.
The sweet spot, is almost always the D3+1 level of summoning.



The Summoner has almost all of the best buffs, so you can be very much liked by the other characters in your party. Give the monk Mage Armor. Give the melee Haste or Heroism. Use Invisibility on the party scout. Don't forget to use Invisibility on yourself, and then to move. Your offensive actions can be placing a summons, to give your Rogue an easy flank, while not breaking your own Invisibility.

If you play the character as a support class, you'll have your party loving you being there, as opposed to hating that you're playing a broken build or whatever.



The Synthesist modifies the Eidolon, and the Pathfinder Unchained version of the Eidolon is different enough that unless you're willing to break the rules the archetype doesn't work with an unchained summoner.

[SorenKnight]

If you go with Summoner I'd recommend house ruling the Unchained spell list onto an otherwise vanilla Summoner. One of the coolest parts of the class is creating a completely original monster, which going completely Unchained takes away from you.

I'd also recommend the Synthesist archetype on top of that, because it removes the other big part of the class that's considered unbalanced (the action economy advantage of your eidolon wrecking face and you tossing out buffs at the same time) and also because its just plain cool. You get to be the Hulk/Venom/a Magical Girl. You can describe it however you like, and evolutions have the flexiblity to represent any of those.