Hexblade Warlock: The optimal choice [STR Vs. DEX]

[Carlos Barreto]

Greetings,

I would like to have posted it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377591-Pact-making-101-A-guide-to-the-5th-edition-Warlock/page4), but Thread Necromancy seems to be against the rules, even if it's for good.

After thinking for a while, I came to the conclusion that if someone wants to play a Pact of Blade Warlock, it's pointless to be a Dex-based, finess weapon wielder. The reason, as some of you already know, it's because Eldritch Blast d10+Char will deal more damage than your d8+Dex Rapier. And even with Lifedrinker, the difference is not that great to justify two Evocations and the risky of melee. On top of that, Shillelagh (from Tome of Pact) gives you a d8+Char weapon. Dex 14+Medium Armor (from Fighter dip)+Shield and you can invest all your ASIs in Char and Con, up to 20 (both!).

Does that mean that Blade Warlock is useless? I don't think so. To me, it seems clear as water that if someone wants to melee as a Warlock, the optimal choice is to be Str-based Warlock with Plate Armor and Great Weapons. But not any weapon, like a Greatsword or Maul. I'm talking about the Polearm.

Fighter 1/Warlock 1 = 1d10+Str+d6 (Hex) + 1d4+Str+d6 (Hex). If we consider Str 16 (+3), that's 21 average points of damage at level 2. And I'm not even considering Fighting Style. Great Weapon Fighting Style will improve your damage (in the realm of mathematics and theorycraft, the damage improvement is not that great, but when you see that 1 or 2 on your d10, you will desire to have it. Trust me! And don't forget that it also works with your d4 from bonus attack!).

Now, consider the Great Weapon Master Feat at Warlock 4 and Thirsting Blade at Warlock 5 (again, with +3 Str modifier and without Fighting Style):

Attack Action: 1d10+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 22)
Thirsting Blade: 1d10+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 22)
Bônus Action: 1d4+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 19)

Total Average Damage: 63. Not bad.

Lifedrinker can push that damage even more, up to +15. And there are other options, like 1 or 2 extra Fighter levels for Action Surge and Maneuvers (all sweet things that restores together with your spell slots in a short rest).

Sure, Dex is a great attribute. It helps your initiative and to reduce AoE spells. But if you want to melee with your Warlock, Strength is the big winner.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: Thanks to Polearm Master, you can attack enemies that enter your reach using your reaction, therefore giving you a fourth attack! Isn't that great?

Also, while DEX improves your DEX-save and initiative, with Eldritch Blast+Agonizing blast you are respectable at range combat. You don't have the archer's Sharpshooter feat, but you're still doing great.

[HoarsHalberd]

Greetings,

I would like to have posted it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377591-Pact-making-101-A-guide-to-the-5th-edition-Warlock/page4), but Thread Necromancy seems to be against the rules, even if it's for good.

After thinking for a while, I came to the conclusion that if someone wants to play a Pact of Blade Warlock, it's pointless to be a Dex-based, finess weapon wielder. The reason, as some of you already know, it's because Eldritch Blast d10+Char will deal more damage than your d8+Dex Rapier. And even with Lifedrinker, the difference is not that great to justify two Evocations and the risky of melee. On top of that, Shillelagh (from Tome of Pact) gives you a d8+Char weapon. Dex 14+Medium Armor (from Fighter dip)+Shield and you can invest all your ASIs in Char and Con, up to 20 (both!).

Does that mean that Blade Warlock is useless? I don't think so. To me, it seems clear as water that if someone wants to melee as a Warlock, the optimal choice is to be Str-based Warlock with Plate Armor and Great Weapons. But not any weapon, like a Greatsword or Maul. I'm talking about the Polearm.

Fighter 1/Warlock 1 = 1d10+Str+d6 (Hex) + 1d4+Str+d6 (Hex). If we consider Str 16 (+3), that's 21 average points of damage at level 2. And I'm not even considering Fighting Style. Great Weapon Fighting Style will improve your damage (in the realm of mathematics and theorycraft, the damage improvement is not that great, but when you see that 1 or 2 on your d10, you will desire to have it. Trust me! And don't forget that it also works with your d4 from bonus attack!).

Now, consider the Great Weapon Master Feat at Warlock 4 and Thirsting Blade at Warlock 5 (again, with +3 Str modifier and without Fighting Style):

Attack Action: 1d10+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 22)
Thirsting Blade: 1d10+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 22)
Bônus Action: 1d4+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 19)

Total Average Damage: 63. Not bad.

Lifedrinker can push that damage even more, up to +15. And there are other options, like 1 or 2 extra Fighter levels for Action Surge and Maneuvers (all sweet things that restores together with your spell slots in a short rest).

Sure, Dex is a great attribute. It helps your initiative and to reduce AoE spells. But if you want to melee with your Warlock, Strength is the big winner.

Any thoughts?

That isn't average damage.

Assuming you had +5 strength and a 50% chance to hit against the foe without GWM the average damage is: 0.2(2(5.5+10+5+3.5)+(2.5+5+10+3.5))+0.05(2(11+10+5 +3.5)+(5+5+10+3.5)) = 18.45

Vs the EB with the same basal chance to hit: 2(0.45(5.5+5+3.5)+0.05(11+5+7)) = 14.49 And this is the place the build is best. The EB build reaches cha faster and has a giant boost in AC over the polearm master build. The only time polearm master bladelock should be considered is when you have a very good and patient healer or you have 3 very good rolled stats. (To show you damage at 17 0.2(2(5.5+10+5+5+3.5)+(2.5+5+5+10+3.5))+0.05(2(11+ 10+5+5+3.5)+(5+5+5+10+3.5))-4(0.45(5.5+5+3.5)+0.05(11+5+3.5))=-7.425))

The dex bladelock works by being less MAD and hence still having a damn good defence. With a GWM+PM build you will end up with one stat unfilled if you use the standard array or point buy. And a max AC of 15. Whereas Dex build you get a 17-18 AC (depending on mage armour) and reasonable damage and maxing both stats.

[MrStabby]

Well a lot of dex builds dip a level of Monk to use a quarterstaff - then can bust out the polearm mastery or greatweapon mastery etc..

[orcafromthesky]

Greetings,

I would like to have posted it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377591-Pact-making-101-A-guide-to-the-5th-edition-Warlock/page4), but Thread Necromancy seems to be against the rules, even if it's for good.

After thinking for a while, I came to the conclusion that if someone wants to play a Pact of Blade Warlock, it's pointless to be a Dex-based, finess weapon wielder. The reason, as some of you already know, it's because Eldritch Blast d10+Char will deal more damage than your d8+Dex Rapier. And even with Lifedrinker, the difference is not that great to justify two Evocations and the risky of melee. On top of that, Shillelagh (from Tome of Pact) gives you a d8+Char weapon. Dex 14+Medium Armor (from Fighter dip)+Shield and you can invest all your ASIs in Char and Con, up to 20 (both!).

Does that mean that Blade Warlock is useless? I don't think so. To me, it seems clear as water that if someone wants to melee as a Warlock, the optimal choice is to be Str-based Warlock with Plate Armor and Great Weapons. But not any weapon, like a Greatsword or Maul. I'm talking about the Polearm.

Fighter 1/Warlock 1 = 1d10+Str+d6 (Hex) + 1d4+Str+d6 (Hex). If we consider Str 16 (+3), that's 21 average points of damage at level 2. And I'm not even considering Fighting Style. Great Weapon Fighting Style will improve your damage (in the realm of mathematics and theorycraft, the damage improvement is not that great, but when you see that 1 or 2 on your d10, you will desire to have it. Trust me! And don't forget that it also works with your d4 from bonus attack!).

Now, consider the Great Weapon Master Feat at Warlock 4 and Thirsting Blade at Warlock 5 (again, with +3 Str modifier and without Fighting Style):

Attack Action: 1d10+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 22)
Thirsting Blade: 1d10+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 22)
Bônus Action: 1d4+Str+10+d6 (Hex) (Avg. 19)

Total Average Damage: 63. Not bad.

Lifedrinker can push that damage even more, up to +15. And there are other options, like 1 or 2 extra Fighter levels for Action Surge and Maneuvers (all sweet things that restores together with your spell slots in a short rest).

Sure, Dex is a great attribute. It helps your initiative and to reduce AoE spells. But if you want to melee with your Warlock, Strength is the big winner.

Any thoughts?

Funny, I've been having this exact same conversation with myself lately (I posted about it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483153-Smitin-all-Day-Bladelock-w-Paladin-dip-Does-this-build-work&p=20605134#post20605134) a couple of days ago). I absolutely think STR & Polearms are the way to go with a Hexblade -- I've never been able to make a DEX build work.

I really want to try a Hexblade build that dips 2 into Paladin for Smite. You could smite 2-4 times per combat (depending on level) using your Warlock spell slots, which -- once you reach Warlock level 7 -- would ALWAYS be maxed at 5d8. Recharging on a short rest. Probably not as strong as a Pali/Sorcerer build, but definitely more to my taste.

As for whether to wear heavy armor or not, I think that depends on which patron you want to take. Fiend is all about wanting to get hit (Hellish Rebuke, Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, etc.), stacking temp HP and using resistance to mitigate damage (of course, that's all moot if you're using your spell slots for smites). I think a Dragonborn Fiend Hexblade would be a lot of fun. With Fire Shield and Fiendish Resilience, you'd have resistance to the 3 damage types of your choice (including your racial), and you'd be bouncing back all sorts of damage when you got hit.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Foxhound438]

The dex bladelock works by being less MAD and hence still having a damn good defence. With a GWM+PM build you will end up with one stat unfilled if you use the standard array or point buy. And a max AC of 15. Whereas Dex build you get a 17-18 AC (depending on mage armour) and reasonable damage and maxing both stats.

start fighter 1 for AC 18 in plate.

start Vuman for PAM, grab GWM at some point, full 19 in warlock gives you 4 other ASI's.

[Foxhound438]

Overall you're about right. Getting 3 attacks that add cha to damage is pretty great. I would also argue that you really don't need GWM, the damage boosts from hex and lifedrinker are enough to out damage the eldritch blast with hex, so long as you take great weapon fighting style.

Blast: 4d10+4d6+20=56

PAM: 2d10+1d4+3d6+30=54 w/o fighting style, 58.1 with.

PAM does a lot better than blast at earlier levels too, having 2 attacks when blasters only get one, 3 when others only get 2, and add 2 mods to each of 3 attacks when blasters add one mod still.

Oh, and a bladelock can take agonizing blast for utility and still be better overall due to having a better melee option.

The GWM plan is still good, but generally I'd go for darkness+devil's sight over hex for advantage to mostly undo the hit chance drop, still beating the blast lock in the damage race:

2d10+1d4+60=73.5 or 75.6

Finally, PAM's reaction attack and fire shield/armor of agathys in melee give you a decent chunk of damage outside of your turn that no other warlock is going to match.

So yes, bladelock with a polearm is in fact the "optimal" choice.

[Carlos Barreto]

That isn't average damage.

Assuming you had +5 strength and a 50% chance to hit against the foe without GWM the average damage is: 0.2(2(5.5+10+5+3.5)+(2.5+5+10+3.5))+0.05(2(11+10+5 +3.5)+(5+5+10+3.5)) = 18.45

Vs the EB with the same basal chance to hit: 2(0.45(5.5+5+3.5)+0.05(11+5+7)) = 14.49 And this is the place the build is best. The EB build reaches cha faster and has a giant boost in AC over the polearm master build. The only time polearm master bladelock should be considered is when you have a very good and patient healer or you have 3 very good rolled stats. (To show you damage at 17 0.2(2(5.5+10+5+5+3.5)+(2.5+5+5+10+3.5))+0.05(2(11+ 10+5+5+3.5)+(5+5+5+10+3.5))-4(0.45(5.5+5+3.5)+0.05(11+5+3.5))=-7.425))

I'm no math guy, so I'm sorry for not following your math.
My numbers are simply considering that you do hit your enemy. So the average numbers comes from the dice+modifiers. I know what you mean, that the -5/+10 makes the attack less likely to hit, but there are out there guides about when to use (or not) the Great Weapon Master "Power Attack" feature with a lot of math to support it.

As a rule of thumb, one should always use -5/+10 when you have advantage on your attack rolls. And there are many different ways to obtain advantage.

Now please observe that the main goal is to compare the STR x DEX Pact of Blade Warlock using Eldritch Blast as a measure to find out what is best: Str-based or Dex-based. It seems clear to me that it is pointless to be a DEX-based Bladelock simply because Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast outdamages Rapiers. And the fact that you don't expose yourself to damage is a nice plus. Also, you can have a similar effect with Shillelagh+Green-Flame Blade/Booming Blade.


The dex bladelock works by being less MAD and hence still having a damn good defence. With a GWM+PM build you will end up with one stat unfilled if you use the standard array or point buy. And a max AC of 15. Whereas Dex build you get a 17-18 AC (depending on mage armour) and reasonable damage and maxing both stats.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how a Dex Bladelock (DEX/CHAR as your main stats, followed by CON) is less MAD then a Str Bladelock (STR/CHAR as your main stats, followed by CON).

I also fail to see how a GWM+PM build would have max AC of 15. Just by starting as a Fighter 1, you could begin the game with AC 16. A non-magical Plate Armor is AC 18 and you can increase to 19 with Defense Fighting Style if you wish.


Well a lot of dex builds dip a level of Monk to use a quarterstaff - then can bust out the polearm mastery or greatweapon mastery etc..

Sure you can do that. But than you will need Wis 13 to multiclass monk, further increasing MAD.
Also, the +10 from Great Weapony Mastery increases damage a lot, and the d4 from Polearm Master also can receive that +10.


Funny, I've been having this exact same conversation with myself lately (I posted about it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483153-Smitin-all-Day-Bladelock-w-Paladin-dip-Does-this-build-work&p=20605134#post20605134) a couple of days ago). I absolutely think STR & Polearms are the way to go with a Hexblade -- I've never been able to make a DEX build work.

I really want to try a Hexblade build that dips 2 into Paladin for Smite. You could smite 2-4 times per combat (depending on level) using your Warlock spell slots, which -- once you reach Warlock level 7 -- would ALWAYS be maxed at 5d8. Recharging on a short rest. Probably not as strong as a Pali/Sorcerer build, but definitely more to my taste.

Yes. Paladin's Divine Smite is awesome. Action Surge, however, can give you two extra attacks if you have Thirsting Blade, for a total of 5 attacks (2 from "normal" action, 2 from Action Surge, 1 as a bonus with the Polearm blunt end). And I think that those 2 extra attacks can dish out more damage than 5d8 (although Smite has its own merits: there's no missed Smite and you can hit a critical for 10d8, 12d8 if demon or undead).

However... There's an important issue: Constitution Proficiency. I'm playing right now a Favored Soul Sorcerer with 1 level Fighter dip (right now he is Fighter 1/Favored Soul Sorcerer 2). My original idea was to start as a Paladin and take another 1 or 2 extra Paladin levels later for Smite and Oath. But the lack of Constitution Proficiency for a melee gish is bad, really, really bad. And don't forget that Sorcerers has amazing defensive spells like Shield and Blur/Greater Invisibility, but I didn't want to take chances of failing Concentration checks.


As for whether to wear heavy armor or not, I think that depends on which patron you want to take. Fiend is all about wanting to get hit (Hellish Rebuke, Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, etc.), stacking temp HP and using resistance to mitigate damage (of course, that's all moot if you're using your spell slots for smites). I think a Dragonborn Fiend Hexblade would be a lot of fun. With Fire Shield and Fiendish Resilience, you'd have resistance to the 3 damage types of your choice (including your racial), and you'd be bouncing back all sorts of damage when you got hit.

Well, I've heard about that masochist warlock. It's a weird concept, but it works.
However, damage is never a good thing, even if you hurt back in the process. So I think you can never go wrong with Heavy Armor with you're Str-based. If you're using a Polearm, you can step back (provoking Attack of Opportunity) and force your enemies to engage in close combat with you, provoking reacton attacks from you thanks to Polearm Master.


Overall you're about right. Getting 3 attacks that add cha to damage is pretty great. I would also argue that you really don't need GWM, the damage boosts from hex and lifedrinker are enough to out damage the eldritch blast with hex, so long as you take great weapon fighting style.

Blast: 4d10+4d6+20=56

PAM: 2d10+1d4+3d6+30=54 w/o fighting style, 58.1 with.

PAM does a lot better than blast at earlier levels too, having 2 attacks when blasters only get one, 3 when others only get 2, and add 2 mods to each of 3 attacks when blasters add one mod still.

Oh, and a bladelock can take agonizing blast for utility and still be better overall due to having a better melee option.

The GWM plan is still good, but generally I'd go for darkness+devil's sight over hex for advantage to mostly undo the hit chance drop, still beating the blast lock in the damage race:

2d10+1d4+60=73.5 or 75.6

Finally, PAM's reaction attack and fire shield/armor of agathys in melee give you a decent chunk of damage outside of your turn that no other warlock is going to match.

So yes, bladelock with a polearm is in fact the "optimal" choice.

You said that such Bladelock doesn't need GWM.
Well, you don't "need" in the same sense that archers doesn't need Sharpshooter or Warlocks doesn't need Agonizing Blast to kill enemies. But you just do it better when you have it.

Also, while the -5/+10 is the icing in the cake, we just can't forget that once you hit a critical or kill an opponent, your bonus attack will also increase from d4 (from Polearm Master) to d10 (from GWM first feature).

And indeed, Darkness + Devil's Sight is fantastic. In effect, it's similar to Greater Invisibility, but with the drawback that it can mess with your allies.

I just didn't understand your numbers, however.

[Tanarii]

It depends on what you want as a bladelock.

If you just want a bit better OAs and light smashy-face, Cha/Dex/Rapier bladelock is just dandy.

If you want a guy that mixes and matches ranged magical and melee attacks regularly for massive damage, then you want a Greatsword or Polearm Cha/Str Bladelock (or even Str/Cha Bladelock). Plenty of toughness and mobility in a 'lock for dipping in and out of melee. Dark One's Blessing, at-will False Life & Armor of Agathys are all ways to get temp hp.

But if you want a true GISH, who self-buffs with magic then goes full smashyface with a weapon, a Str/Con with a drop of Cha bladelock, you're probably going to want to pick up Armor Proficiency from somewhere.

Personally when someone says Hexblade I can see either of the last two.

[Corran]

Dex can still serve a multiclassed bladelock fine, with the proper dip. For example, a bladelock who dips 2 in rogue for cunning action, can skirmish all day long, while inside magical darkness, using BB and moving away after every hit and using his bonus action to hide. Very respectable damage for my taste, especially if your target moves (or he can stay still readying an action, in which case you go for another target inside your darkness). Can it outdamage a str bladelock with GWM and/or PM. Probably not, but that's not his role.

[Carlos Barreto]

It depends on what you want as a bladelock.

If you just want a bit better OAs and light smashy-face, Cha/Dex/Rapier bladelock is just dandy.

If you want a guy that mixes and matches ranged magical and melee attacks regularly for massive damage, then you want a Greatsword or Polearm Cha/Str Bladelock (or even Str/Cha Bladelock). Plenty of toughness and mobility in a 'lock for dipping in and out of melee. Dark One's Blessing, at-will False Life & Armor of Agathys are all ways to get temp hp.

But if you want a true GISH, who self-buffs with magic then goes full smashyface with a weapon, a Str/Con with a drop of Cha bladelock, you're probably going to want to pick up Armor Proficiency from somewhere.

Personally when someone says Hexblade I can see either of the last two.

Just to make it clear: by Gish, I mean an Arcane Warrior, who use magic (both to buff and to blast) and a lovely blade (althought it could be a non-bladed weapon, like a Maul, Quarterstaff or Rod). I'm not concerned in the etymological meaning of the word.

My point is that there's no point to get in close-combat range to use a Rapier when Eldritch Blast is just better. We are talking about 1) Less damage and risk of damage (DEX-based Bladelock with Rapier) Vs. 2) More damage from a safe spot (Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast).

Also, one more time, Shillelagh (from Pact of Tome) + Green-Flame Blade/Booming Blade can do a similar damage to a DEX-based Pact of Blade Warlock with Thirsting Blade, with the huge benefit that you can stop your DEX at 14 and focus entirely on your CHAR to attack and damage with both spells and magic. And as if it wasn't good enough, you can have ritual spells from any spell list.

Greatsword is great, but Polearm Master is just better because it does more damage. 2 Attacks + 1 bônus attack + 1 possible reaction attack, all with Hex and possibly with GWM -5/+10, adding Lifedrinker at Warlock 11.

[Tanarii]

Just to make it clear: by Gish, I mean an Arcane Warrior, who use magic (both to buff and to blast) and a lovely blade (althought it could be a non-bladed weapon, like a Maul, Quarterstaff or Rod). I'm not concerned in the etymological meaning of the word.I'll try to keep up with you. I've run into that issue repeatedly. ;)


My point is that there's no point to get in close-combat range to use a Rapier when Eldritch Blast is just better. We are talking about 1) Less damage and risk of damage (DEX-based Bladelock with Rapier) Vs. 2) More damage from a safe spot (Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast).Yup. That's why I specifically mentioned OAs. Because that's by far the most likely use for a pure-warlock Dex Bladelock. But yeah, Shillelagh is sufficient and equal (or maybe more powerful since it's primary stat) in terms of OAs.


Also, one more time, Shillelagh (from Pact of Tome) + Green-Flame Blade/Booming Blade can do a similar damage to a DEX-based Pact of Blade Warlock with Thirsting Blade, with the huge benefit that you can stop your DEX at 14 and focus entirely on your CHAR to attack and damage with both spells and magic. And as if it wasn't good enough, you can have ritual spells from any spell list.Green Flame Blade is from a source book. But yes, true that. (Personally I'm of the opinion that the SCAG melee spells are flat broken, so I don't even consider them for inclusion in non-AL games I run. Out of sight is out of mind.)


Greatsword is great, but Polearm Master is just better because it does more damage. 2 Attacks + 1 bônus attack + 1 possible reaction attack, all with Hex and possibly with GWM -5/+10, adding Lifedrinker at Warlock 11.GWM doesn't make as much sense for a Warlock, since they have high base damage, that -5 to hit REALLY hurts DPR. Polearms are only better if you assume PAM. (Not an unreasonable assumption, but still feats are an optional rule).

One thing to keep in mind is the PHB classes are balanced on the idea that, hey, not all D&D players are heavy optimizers. Yeah, if you want, a Str/Cha bladelock with PAM can dish out some real nastiness that a Dex bladelock can't easily compare to.

[Carlos Barreto]

Yup. That's why I specifically mentioned OAs. Because that's by far the most likely use for a pure-warlock Dex Bladelock. But yeah, Shillelagh is sufficient and equal (or maybe more powerful since it's primary stat) in terms of OAs.

Polearm Master is also a very good source of opportunity attacks.

You attack your enemies 5 feet away from them and retreat a step, forcing then to come closer to you, therefore provoking an attack of opportunity thanks to Polearm Master.


Green Flame Blade is from a source book. But yes, true that. (Personally I'm of the opinion that the SCAG melee spells are flat broken, so I don't even consider them for inclusion in non-AL games I run. Out of sight is out of mind.)

Fine, but that's your personal judgement. I believe most DMs doesn't have a problem with these cantrips. They are somewhat close to the Shocking Grasp niche. They can cause more damage, while Shocking Grasp denies reaction.


GWM doesn't make as much sense for a Warlock, since they have high base damage, that -5 to hit REALLY hurts DPR. Polearms are only better if you assume PAM. (Not an unreasonable assumption, but still feats are an optional rule).

Sure, Feats are optional in 5e. But Feats are a central mechanism of the core D&D since the classic D&D 3 edition. I think that even if it is an optional rule, it's pretty much standard in many - if not most or even in almost every games - D&D 5e games.

As I said in the first post, there're out there some guides about when to use (or not to use) Great Weapon Master "Power Attack", with some math to backup. Someone with 3, possibly 4 attacks surely has plenty of room to use it. The kicker is to gain advantage on your attack rolls and there are so many ways to gain advantage that, well, I don't think it's needed to make a list.

Also, the bonus attack can turn your d4 (Polearm Master) to a d10 (critical hit/kill an enemy). That's a nice adition to something that is already worthy on its own.


One thing to keep in mind is the PHB classes are balanced on the idea that, hey, not all D&D players are heavy optimizers. Yeah, if you want, a Str/Cha bladelock with PAM can dish out some real nastiness that a Dex bladelock can't easily compare to.

Sure, and that's one of the beauties of the D&D 5e: It's well balanced. Not perfectly, sure, but it's not 3.5e. Not even close.

The point of my post is to highlight one important thing: Bladelock is not worthless in comparison to Eldritch Blast if you go STR and use a Polearm with the proper feats.

Particularly, I've found a LOT of posts arguing how superior DEX-builds are when compared to STR-builds because the damage, according to some, is very small and therefore, doesn't worthy the DEX sweeties (and sure, Dex has many advantages). Oddly, it seem that some players just forget the role of Feats that push the heavy weapon's damage to a large difference.

And Warlocks have Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast, so they don't even have to worry about bows for ranged combat.

[Submortimer]

Particularly, I've found a LOT of posts arguing how superior DEX-builds are when compared to STR-builds because the damage, according to some, is very small and therefore, doesn't worthy the DEX sweeties (and sure, Dex has many advantages). Oddly, it seem that some players just forget the role of Feats that push the heavy weapon's damage to a large difference.

This. It's important to note that a Str Bladelock, like the Barbarian, has a fantastic means of getting advantage on his attacks, namely darkness+devil's sight. That easily mitigates the penalties of using GWM and drives his damage numbers through the roof.

[JumboWheat01]

I lean slightly more towards DEX here, since Warlocks are naturally only proficient with Light Armor, and capping out your DEX helps out your survivability along with your damage. Yes, yes, I know, if the thing is dead, it can't hurt you, but sometimes you just need that extra modifier on your chance to survive.

Sure, you can blow a feat to get proficiency with Medium Armor (and Shields!) but if you want to keep your casting stat high (and you should, you're still a caster,) you don't really have room for an offensive feat AND an armor feat.

(Thinking pure class here, like I normally do.)

[Carlos Barreto]

I lean slightly more towards DEX here, since Warlocks are naturally only proficient with Light Armor, and capping out your DEX helps out your survivability along with your damage. Yes, yes, I know, if the thing is dead, it can't hurt you, but sometimes you just need that extra modifier on your chance to survive.

Sure, you can blow a feat to get proficiency with Medium Armor (and Shields!) but if you want to keep your casting stat high (and you should, you're still a caster,) you don't really have room for an offensive feat AND an armor feat.

(Thinking pure class here, like I normally do.)

That's that point. If you want to have DEX and go all the way to Warlock 20, Eldritch Blast will outperform your melee damage, even if you choose Pact of Blade.

That's why I say that STR and Polearm is the optimal choice for brave Warlocks who dares to stay toe-to-toe against their enemies. If you take into consideration the +10 from Great Weapon Master and that you may have +5 from STR and +5 from CHAR, that's +20 to damage!! So even that small d4 from your Polearm blunt end will cause something around 21-24 damage.

I guess I would do a build like this if I could reach level 20, using the point-buy system:

Variant Human Fighter (Battle Master 3)/Warlock (Pact of Blade - Fiend) 17, start as a Fighter 1:

Strength 15 (+1 Variant Human, 16)
Dexterity 8
Constitution 14
Inteligence 8
Wisdom 10
Charisma 15 (+1 Variant Human, 16)

First level Variant Human Feat: Polearm Master
Feat at Warlock 4: Great Weapon Master
Warlock 8: +2 Strength (18)
Warlock 12: +2 Charisma (18)
Warlock 16: +2 Charisma (20).

Final Result: STR 18, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CAR 20.

If one really wants maximized STR, you could forget Fighter 3 and just stick with Fighter 1. But I think that Action Surge and 3 Maneuvers and 4 Superiority Dice (d8) worths the price of having just STR 18, which can be mitigated by magical weapons.

[orcafromthesky]

Well, I've heard about that masochist warlock. It's a weird concept, but it works.
However, damage is never a good thing, even if you hurt back in the process. So I think you can never go wrong with Heavy Armor with you're Str-based. If you're using a Polearm, you can step back (provoking Attack of Opportunity) and force your enemies to engage in close combat with you, provoking reacton attacks from you thanks to Polearm Master.

I'm fairly certain the whole point of that build is that you're never (or rarely) taking damage to your actual hit points. You've always got a small-to-large reserve of temp HP going on (Armor of Agathys & Dark One's Blessing), which gets eaten away at even more slowly due to your resistances. Normally I would agree with you, damage is never a good thing -- unless said damage is being cut in half and taken away from your temp HP in exchange for burning your opponent for large amounts of damage (2d8+25 per hit at level 9, plus at level 11 you can burn your remaining spell slot to nuke them with Hellish Rebuke for 6d10).

[Foxhound438]

I just didn't understand your numbers, however.

I'll assume you mean for damage with great weapon fighting. It's calculated statistically:

GWFS die average = normal die average + reroll chance *(die average-1.5)

so for a d10 it's 5.5+.2*(4), or 6.3.

The "die average - 1.5" bit comes from the average you gain from a reroll (average of die roll minus average of what you threw out; since you reroll 1 or 2, the average there is always 1.5). You then multiply that by the chance of rerolling.

[Saggo]

That's that point. If you want to have DEX and go all the way to Warlock 20, Eldritch Blast will outperform your melee damage, even if you choose Pact of Blade.

If you TWF, even without the style, you can keep pace and even edge out EB. The offhand attack edges out the extra damage from the d10 for 1 & 2 beam Eldritch Blast, even with light weapons. Lifedrinker and offhand edge out the 3rd beam. It's only until level 17 with the 4th beam that EB wins hands down, but once you consider magic weapons and reactions, it's a wash.

If a player wants to Bladelock with Dex, they can use TWF and not worry about damage.

I'll assume you mean for damage with great weapon fighting. It's calculated statistically:

GWFS die average = normal die average + reroll chance *(die average-1.5)

so for a d10 it's 5.5+.2*(4), or 6.3.

The "die average - 1.5" bit comes from the average you gain from a reroll (average of die roll minus average of what you threw out; since you reroll 1 or 2, the average there is always 1.5). You then multiply that by the chance of rerolling.

It's simpler to just replace 1s and 2s with the average of the dice. Like for a d6, Avg (3.5,3.5,3,4,5,6)=4.17.

[Lollerabe]

I thought the Vhuman fighter1/blade lock x into bm3/fiend lock 17 with PAM was a well known optimized blade lock. At least that's the char I made for the newb at my table, and he loves it - awesome flavor, insane in combat.

On topic: I kind of agree with Tanarii here, GWM is less attractive in this build cause the avg damg pr hit is so high.

I'd imagine that you'd be better of taking str/cha more often then not. The fiend lock at my table is gonna go inspiring leader at 4 (thank god) and then str/cha. It obviously depends on party composition, I'm just saying GWM is often not gonna be your best choice compared to stat bumps, sentinel, inspiring leader etc.

[djreynolds]

You have EB so you do not need a ranged attack, so strength is better served here. Plate Armor is awesome.

[Zalabim]

In defense of the Dex build, it's for a more defensive, single-classed, bladelock. It gets mage armor, Dex primary, and plenty of access to temp hp, but it doesn't deal as much damage as a Blaster on its turn. Plenty of room for a character like that at the table.

To expand on the Str build, there's some contention since you're already needing many bonus actions to keep hex on your target, but this is where EB has a chance to shine. As a Str/Cha warlock, you're still a capable ranged threat, so enemies will want to come to you to shut down your EB. This is where PM proves its worth, as you get that extra reaction attack and are completely competent as a melee threat as well. There's normally the counter to PM of just don't engage them in melee; fight other PCs first. Str/Cha plays a porcupine very well, and you can't just avoid it because of EB.

[tieren]

It seems to me if you really want to optimize a blade lock you should go deeper in fighter. For example fighter 8/warlock 12.

You'd end up with more ASIs than a straight bladelock, making it easier to pick up PAM and GWM. You wouldn't need thirsting blade giving you an extra invocation. You'd have more hit points, action surge and second wind wouldn't be too bad.

You could still get lifedrinker, but you would add the benefits of the fighter subclass too (crits and remarkable athlete, or maneuvers and superiority die, or extra spell slots, shield spell and war magic)

[Theodoxus]

BTW, threadomancy is ok on class guides... But you probably got a lot better discussion posting a new thread.

[Submortimer]

It seems to me if you really want to optimize a blade lock you should go deeper in fighter. For example fighter 8/warlock 12.

You'd end up with more ASIs than a straight bladelock, making it easier to pick up PAM and GWM. You wouldn't need thirsting blade giving you an extra invocation. You'd have more hit points, action surge and second wind wouldn't be too bad.

You could still get lifedrinker, but you would add the benefits of the fighter subclass too (crits and remarkable athlete, or maneuvers and superiority die, or extra spell slots, shield spell and war magic)

The important point is getting Lifedrinker online asap. To be honest, all the build needs to be not just successful, but amazing, is first level fighter. Heavy Armor, Con save prof, martial weapons, fighting style...it's everything the bladelock is missing out on. With fighter 8, all you're gettign is one additional ASI, and that's not really worth it. If you want a proper 8/12 split, go oathbreaker/warlock: at 20, every hit is getting +cha+cha+str+10, or +25 with maxed out str and cha.

War magic is not something you want to put on this Build...you want all three attacks on as many rounds as you can get.

[Carlos Barreto]

If you TWF, even without the style, you can keep pace and even edge out EB. The offhand attack edges out the extra damage from the d10 for 1 & 2 beam Eldritch Blast, even with light weapons. Lifedrinker and offhand edge out the 3rd beam. It's only until level 17 with the 4th beam that EB wins hands down, but once you consider magic weapons and reactions, it's a wash.

If a player wants to Bladelock with Dex, they can use TWF and not worry about damage.

That's a good insight. I just forgot the TWF option. I guess it's because people keep saying that TWF sucks in 5e.
However, TWF seems to have a good synergy that gives bonus to damage rolls like Hex and Lifedrinker.

So yes, a TWF Warlock wielding two Rapiers with the propper Fighting Style and Feat could outdamage the Eldritch Blast. It's not as good as Polearm Master+Great Weapon Master, but it's good.


On topic: I kind of agree with Tanarii here, GWM is less attractive in this build cause the avg damg pr hit is so high.

Sorry. I'm not sure if I got your point here. In any case, the greatest concern with the GWM is the -5 to hit. That's why I have emphasized two things: 1) Guides in the D&D community to advice when you should try a "Power Attack", with some mathematical background and 2) Advantage. The Warlock alone can gain advantage with Darkness + Combo. Ok, you can't combine Hex and Darkness, but damage will still be high. And there are many other ways to obtain advantage on attack rolls.


It seems to me if you really want to optimize a blade lock you should go deeper in fighter. For example fighter 8/warlock 12.

You'd end up with more ASIs than a straight bladelock, making it easier to pick up PAM and GWM. You wouldn't need thirsting blade giving you an extra invocation. You'd have more hit points, action surge and second wind wouldn't be too bad.

You could still get lifedrinker, but you would add the benefits of the fighter subclass too (crits and remarkable athlete, or maneuvers and superiority die, or extra spell slots, shield spell and war magic)

I'm not so sure, but It could work. Perhaps you could develop some ideas as example.

But I agree with Submortimer. It's important to get Lifedrinker as soon as possible. And not delaying your spell progression is a plus. Also, that requires that you don't care about losing spells of higher levels like Finger of Death.

With your idea, one could start as a Fighter 1 and then go all the way up to Warlock 12. After that, the player could take Fighter levels, but he wouldn't enjoy for too long his Fighter's new abilities.


BTW, threadomancy is ok on class guides... But you probably got a lot better discussion posting a new thread.

I wish it was, but I'm not so sure. Take a look at the last post of this Warlock Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377591-Pact-making-101-A-guide-to-the-5th-edition-Warlock/page4).

[Foxhound438]

If you TWF, even without the style, you can keep pace and even edge out EB. The offhand attack edges out the extra damage from the d10 for 1 & 2 beam Eldritch Blast, even with light weapons. Lifedrinker and offhand edge out the 3rd beam. It's only until level 17 with the 4th beam that EB wins hands down, but once you consider magic weapons and reactions, it's a wash.

If a player wants to Bladelock with Dex, they can use TWF and not worry about damage.


You only get one pact weapon, so lifedrinker only applies to 2/3 of your attacks; far behind the polearm option. Not unuseable, but it's a lot worse.

PAM builds get 58.1 average, as stated above, TWF builds would have (3d8+3d6+15+10) 49 average.

[Foxhound438]

It seems to me if you really want to optimize a blade lock you should go deeper in fighter. For example fighter 8/warlock 12.

You'd end up with more ASIs than a straight bladelock, making it easier to pick up PAM and GWM. You wouldn't need thirsting blade giving you an extra invocation. You'd have more hit points, action surge and second wind wouldn't be too bad.

You could still get lifedrinker, but you would add the benefits of the fighter subclass too (crits and remarkable athlete, or maneuvers and superiority die, or extra spell slots, shield spell and war magic)

You forget that higher levels of warlock gets you higher level Mystic Arcanum; namely, a 3/17 split gets a 9th level option, while a 8/12 only gets 6th.

If you were to go more fighter than warlock and take GWM with one of your extra ASI's and have warlock for darkness shinanigans, that'd be a different story, but ultimately it's weaker than having a use of True Polymorph every day.

[Theodoxus]

I wish it was, but I'm not so sure. Take a look at the last post of this Warlock Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377591-Pact-making-101-A-guide-to-the-5th-edition-Warlock/page4).

Yeah, that's really weird. if you check out the cleric guide that pops up frequently, there are longer gaps between resurrections... and I could have sworn there was a post from a mod about it being ok fairly recently.

Well, as I said, you got a lot more conversation about it than if you'd been able to ask on the thread - people tend to read through the OP when it pops up... and then argue about something posted months back before even getting to the new question.

[MrStabby]

So for dex based bladelocks I am wondering if there is a role for warlock 12 then something like ranger 3 for a fighting style, a few spells (and some spell slots) and giant killer or horde breaker. Extra attacks are nice, with thirsting blade they are nicer still. The extra wis demands might not be appealing though.

For extra sillyness use a whip, add 4 levels of sorcerer for quickened booming blade to fill your bonus action.

[Gtdead]

My basic build is 1fighter -> 12 lock. From there he has options.

He can go full warlock, sacrificing burst for high sustained dpr.
Max str and charisma, foresight and hex lasting whole damn day
At high levels it can do 60~ dpr with advantage, 90~ with GWM.
It will consistently do more than 50 dmg dpr against higher AC enemies.

Or he can sacrifice a Charisma ASI and go 3 lvls of fighter,
Action surge and precision strikes for GWM.
This build will only get foresight at lvl 20, but by lvl 15 it's capable of bursting for 140 average dmg once per short rest.

And the last variation is going for 2 lvls of paladin for smite after 3 fighter.
This is the "screw my spell list" lock.
Once per short rest he can burst for 200 average dmg.
But he loses foresight.

What I like the most about this build is that it gives you options. Till lvl 13 it is as standard as they come. But depending on what type of game your DM runs, you can make adjustments. It doesn't require any preparation, it doesn't sacrifice anything to unlock the possibility of multiclass.

I don't really like dex locks. Personally I think that it's better to go tomelock and grab shillelagh instead of pumping dex to a blade lock.

[Arial Black]

My AL CoS PC is a Dex-based Undying TWF Ftr 1/Bladelock. Why?

My last PC was a Str-based Fiendish Pal 2/Chainlock. So I didn't want my new PC to be too similar to my last. I didn't want Str/heavy armour, didn't want Fiend pact, but still wanted a Bladelock that worked well.

So, TWF and Hex for lots of damage, armour of agathys soon-ish, Warcaster for my first ASI, fighter for HP, Fighting Style, Second Wind, Con saving throws, better skills and equipment and weapon profs.

Definitely have to start as a fighter then get to Ftr 1/War 5 ASAP, then I could take zero, one, two or three more levels of fighter later on, depending on what happens and the party makeup. I'll probably go pure warlock after level one, but you never know.

Having made the decisions to be Dex-based (and the rest), I still want to make it work the best I can.

[MrStabby]

I am not such a fan of TWF as you don't get the benefit of CHA damage on the second weapon. Still, it can output a lot of damage.

[AmayaElls]

So I am running an unarmored, Dex focused, fiend warlock for a high level campaign. She has one level in sorcerer for unarmoured defence and focuses a lot on getting in there and tanking. At first I was worried about having only a rapier but our DM has let us choose some magical items. Therefore I have the Sunblade as my pact weapon, a finesse long sword that deals radiant damage.

I haven't played with this build yet but I am hoping it works well.