Help with a Red dragon, gestalt, 3.5

[Dysjong]

Greetings beloved giant board! Once i come to seek some help.

For some time, i wanted to see how to make a dragon that focus on being a melee fighter instead of relying on magic (None magic classes are my strength) and after some time, i have a very clear idea about which classes i should give it.

HOWEVER! when i try to read the rules for dragons (draconomicon) and their racial hit dice, my head starts getting confused and sinds i also wanna roll it's stats, i am unsure about it's stats modifiers.

Is their anyone who can and will give me a helping with this matter?

[Malroth]

one side of your Gestault would be the savage species class progression for Red Dragons and that will cover your Melee side pretty well, For the other side of your progression no martial class would really give you any benefits but You could get a lot of mileage out of Cloistered Cleric for Knowledge devotion, Travel Devotion and really awesome buffs.

[Dysjong]

Malroth - Thank you for the info about savage species, that helps alot!

However, i would prefere NOT, to pick any spell caster on the other side. I made a document for a lvl 25 gestalt, 18 racial HD on one side with +7 lvl adj (stil not sure about that :-/ ) and ther other side would be 1 barbarian with lion totem - pounce/1 ranger/4 Fighter - dungeon crasher/9 Frenzied berzerker/1 rogue with bonus feat/10 Frenzied berzerker/2 Rogue/1 Pious templar/6 Fighter/ 4 Bloodscaled fury. End game, the dragon would finish it's bloodscaled fury and then it would lead on to dragon ascended.

A dragon that stalks it's prey, hunt it's foes and claims it's just rewards as nature declares it. The first draft i made, didnt had any ranger lvl at all and instead had 2 blackguard lvls...but with the second draft, when i added that one ranger lvl, it made much more sense about who the dragon is, what motivates it (favored enemy is dragons) and how it would do so. To me, it gaved the red dragon a reptile mentality, which i kinda like.

on another note: You can strike the ground with your tail so hard it knocks other creatures down.
Prerequisite

Power Attack (PH) , STR 13, dragon, size Large or larger,
Benefit

You may, as a full-round action, strike a solid surface with your tail and create a shock wave that radiates out from your space and continues for a number of feet equal to 5 × your racial Hit Dice. Make a bull rush attack by rolling once regardless of how many creatures are in the radius. Every creature in the radius makes a Strength check and compares it to your roll. Those who fail their opposed checks are knocked down.
Special

Structures and unattended objects at least partially within the shock wave take damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength bonus.


My question is this: If the dragon used this feat and the ground was solid enough, would it then trigger the dungeon crasher class feature?

[Inevitability]

If you want to play a melee-focused dragon, perhaps check out the Fang Dragon from the Draconomicon?

[Dysjong]

Dire_Stirge - I could kiss you!!! i had forgotten about that one! Gonna take a closer look on that one..might have to make a third draft...

[MisterKaws]

My question is this: If the dragon used this feat and the ground was solid enough, would it then trigger the dungeon crasher class feature?

No, you're not pushing people in a solid surface, you're just making them trip from a shockwave.

Also, try Wyrm of War from Dragons of Eberron, using maneuver version of course, could possibly give you access to all of the Tiger Claw maneuvers by sacrificing a good part of your spell slots, which I doubt you'd use for more than the occasional buffing anyway.

And don't forget to wear an adapted Mithril Mechanus Gear for the lulz.

[DarkSoul]

Greetings beloved giant board! Once i come to seek some help.

For some time, i wanted to see how to make a dragon that focus on being a melee fighter instead of relying on magic (None magic classes are my strength) and after some time, i have a very clear idea about which classes i should give it.

HOWEVER! when i try to read the rules for dragons (draconomicon) and their racial hit dice, my head starts getting confused and sinds i also wanna roll it's stats, i am unsure about it's stats modifiers.

Is their anyone who can and will give me a helping with this matter?

Regarding ability scores, all monsters have ability scores of 10 or 11, modified by racial adjustments, according to page 290 of the Monster Manual and page 199 of the Draconomicon. Going by this information and the table on Monster Manual page 75, I would write up a red dragon with Str 11, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10. This would give a wyrmling red racial bonuses of +6 Str, +4 Con, +1 Wis. When it becomes a very young red, it would gain +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha according to the scores on MM 75.

I'm assuming you're creating this dragon as a character considering the mention of gestalt rules. What level character is it? You mentioned a level 25 writeup you've done. +7 LA sounds about right for 18 HD, as you're outside the range of the charts provided on Draconomicon 143. Personally, I would use the brass dragon table as a basis for comparison because the ages on that table line up with the red's. If you extrapolate the red table four more lines (because your dragon is 18 HD, and the table you're working with stops at 14), you end up with Age 39, Juvenile, 18 HD, +6 LA, ECL 24. The next line would be Age 45, Juvenile, 18 HD, +7 LA, ECL 25, which is right where you want to be. You're also going to have to work with your DM on ages for each dragon level after this. I'd use 52-55 for the next one.

So, all things considered your ECL 25 dragon would be an 18 HD juvenile, at least 45 years old. As a juvenile his ability score modifiers (assuming the 11, 10, 11, 10, 11, 10 array I mentioned before) would be +18 Str, +8 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. Its next dragon level would come when it reached 52 (as an example) years old, at which point it would advance to a young adult, and gain +2 Str, +2 Int (MM 75). When it does reach 52 years old, it gains none of the abilities of a young adult dragon until it takes its next "dragon level" advancing it to 19 HD. This dragon level must be the next level it takes upon reaching 52 years.

Keep in mind that this is all straight from the books, and doesn't take into account the gestalt progression. Dragons don't gain levels and HD the way classes do, so you're going to immediately fall out of sync in your gestalt progression unless you only gain levels every few years. To fix it you'll probably have to take more class levels on the dragon side of your gestalt until you reach the required ages to gain more dragon levels. When you reach those ages, your next level has to be a dragon level on your racial side. Then you'll go back to class levels until you reach the next age.


If you want to play a melee-focused dragon, perhaps check out the Fang Dragon from the Draconomicon?

I did exactly this as an enemy in one of my campaigns. It took Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, and Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike for claws and wings. No penalty on secondary natural attacks (everything but the bite), and iterative attacks with one claw and one wing attack. As a very old fang dragon his full attack was bite +33, claws +33/+33/+28/+23/+18, wings +33/+33/+28/+23/+18, tail slap +33, then crush and tail sweep. Sadly, I never got to unleash him, as the PC's decided to bargain with him instead.

Dysjong, if you decide to use a fang dragon instead of a red, it follows the brass dragon table in the Draconomicon (p. 144), and would likely end up as an Adult with 19 HD, +6 LA, +12 Str, +8 Con, +2 Int, +6 Wis, +2 Cha. Age would be 90 or so.