Ok, is this a completely stupid Dragon Disciple idea?

[Aasimar]

I don't need to make a character right now, but I had this idea and I'm kinda wondering if I'm being super-dumb, or if this is doable.

I'm playing a rogue/wizard/arcane trickster in a group that has a fighter, a paladin, a cleric and a sorcerer.

So if I have to make a replacement character, she'd definitely have to be able to at least deal with traps.

But, I'd kind of want to make a melee based fighter-sorcerer/dragon disciple, who has some magic, but mostly to buff herself and do some utility stuff maybe.

I'm not opposed to rolling a bit of rogue into that, gives a bit more depth, etc.

So, assuming level 9.

Would Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 2/DD4 be absolutely dumb?

What I really want out of Rogue is Trapfinding, but I figure since I'm taking one level, I may as well take two, get evasion, a rogue talent and some skillpoints.

Sorcerer 2 is a bare minimum to me, needs to be able to do at least a little bit of casting.

So, is the one fighter level completely superfluous? Would I be better served forgetting that completely and adding another rogue or sorcerer level?

I'm almost starting to feel like an April Joke, because sorcerer/fighter/rogue is basically what Nale did, instead of bard. But it's not, and I really want that trapfinding. (besides, it's April 2.)

I'm thinking strength based greatsword wielding, so the fighters proficiencies would be nice. (but barbarian might serve just as well)

Any thoughts?

p.s. Core book is the only book that's automatically allowed, DM judges everything else on a case by case basis, including advanced players guide, he tends to dislike archetypes.

[Gnaeus]

Remember in PF the trap finding ability doesn't really do much if you only have 2 levels. It's just +1 perception and the ability to find magic traps, which you won't do well anyway. With archetypes it's easy. With other stuff on PFSRD it's easy. Without, well, you would be just as well or better served taking bard or sorcerer 5, maxing perception, disable device, and handle animal, and buying a couple wands of Mount for trapfinding.

(Edit) Since "tends to dislike" doesn't necessarily equal can't use, Archaeologist bard 5 sounds like it might get you there.

[Aasimar]

Well, it's the ability to deal with magical traps that I find hard to get elsewhere.

And I have a personal peeve against relying on magic items or wands to perform one of my core functions, so I'm not a fan of relying on wands.

Maxed out perception and disable device would probably be done either way.

[Aasimar]

Maybe Slayer, using the talent to get trapfinding, would be acceptable to me.

[Psyren]

"Trapfinding" is badly named in PF. The truth is that everyone can find magic traps in PF, whether they have Trapfinding or not - all you need is high enough Perception. What PF Trapfinding lets you do is use Disable Device on magic traps. But if you have another means to deal with them (say, dispel magic), then the Trapfinding ability is not needed.

This trips people up who are used to 3.5, where trapfinding was necessary to even find any trap with a DC higher than 20, including all magic traps.

If you truly want to be able to disable magic traps with a skill check instead of a dispel, you can get the Trapfinding ability via the Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) trait, saving you a dip or feat.

[upho]

If your DM is cool with it (and I really think s/he should be), just grab Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder). It saves you from having to "waste" levels on a dip into a class that otherwise doesn't fit (mechanically) well with the rest of your concept, just because the party needs someone who can deal with magic traps. Though it's worth noting that you'd still need to invest heavily into at least Perception and Disable Device (and probably Stealth) anyways, of course. IME a positive Dex and Wis mod, an average of at least 4 skill points/level by level 7 or 8 or so, and giving the necessary skills priority and having the party buy/craft some cheap item boosters, should be more than enough to enable you to do the party trap-monkey (and scout) job without problems. At least if you don't play in very high powered kinda game or have a DM with a fetish for stupidly lethal traps/surprises.

//EDIT: Totally ninja-ed! Dammit Psyren, this isn't the first time you've caught me sneaking off for snacks in the middle of posting! Do I have a target painted on my back or something, or have you hacked my webcam? :smalltongue: EDIT//


Would Rogue 2/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 2/DD4 be absolutely dumb?I'd attack this from a different point of view. Ask yourself what you want the character to excel at, and what you care less about, mechanically speaking. From there, start looking at which options would be preferable or required in order to make those mechanics viable.

If you primarily wanna be a good self-buffing "dragon-gish" with an emphasis on the melee side, I actually think you should start by talking to your DM about allowing some non-CRB options, since that particular concept is probably one of the least supported (if at all) by the CRB. In particular, I recommend you take a look at the bloodrager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager) for a more brutal and melee-heavy concept, and the eldritch scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/eldritch-scion) magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) archetype for a more classic and spell-focused gish, both of which have access to the draconic bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/bloodrager-bloodlines/paizo---bloodrager-bloodlines/draconic), which stacks with DD (just as the sorc equivalent).

The magus version is most likely a stronger option overall in most cases, thanks to their vastly superior casting and the flexibility of a much longer spell list, but the bloodrager isn't bad and probably one of the strongest - if not THE strongest - Paizo martial classes in the game. And seriously, who hasn't dreamed of being a raging "ME SMASH, THRASH AND BITE PUNY MONSTER!!!"-hulk, with auto-buffing magic in the blood AND a dragon's scales, wings and breath? :smalltongue:

The sorc is IME stronger (read: OP) in general, being a full caster, but AFAIK it becomes significantly weaker and kinda contrived-feeling if used to emulate a melee gish concept. The above options, especially the magus, are OTOH actually designed for the very purpose of being gishes. Notably, the sorc doesn't have native mechanics which fuse arcane casting and melee fighting into one and the same action or turn, nor does it give the bab or carefree arcane spellcasting in armor a true gish needs. (Unless I'm forgetting some particular archetype/bloodline combo which makes it shine, that is....)

And if DD isn't that important, an "egoist" bard like an arcane duelist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/arcane-duelist) or a dervish dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dervish-dancer) makes for interesting and different archane melee types.


I'm almost starting to feel like an April Joke, because sorcerer/fighter/rogue is basically what Nale did, instead of bard. But it's not, and I really want that trapfinding. (besides, it's April 2.)Heh, the funny thing is that the bard would be a considerably stronger option for Nale in both 3.5 and PF, at least if not confined to only the most core material.

Speaking of core, if you're interested in for example the magus archetype, it might be worth mentioning for your DM that it radically differs from the vanilla magus, making very flavorful character concepts, that would otherwise be extremely sub-par, viable - without increasing the magus' power level (rather the opposite).

When you've had a look at the options and maybe talked with your DM, I'd be glad to help you out with a build outline. Though I'm probably best equipped to give tips on a bloodrager, so for a magus you should definitely also check out Kurald Galain's excellent magus guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus).

[KillingAScarab]

If you truly want to be able to disable magic traps with a skill check instead of a dispel, you can get the Trapfinding ability via the Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) trait, saving you a dip or feat.If for some reason that trait is not allowed, there is an archetype which is available to both oracles and sorcerers which grants a class ability which works just like and stacks with rogue trapfinding. Seeker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/seeker) trades out the eschew materials bonus feat at 1st level for tinkering. It also replaces the bloodline powers gained at 3rd and 15th level. That's kinda big, though, considering those are dragon resistances and wings. The dragon disciple prestige class explicitly grants wings and natural armor, but not energy resistance. I'm not sure how that works out when you are advancing in a prestige class which works off your bloodline.

[Pyromancer999]

I would also endorse taking the Trap Finder trait. Although if you're looking to focus on melee, apparently Bloodrager/Dragon Disciples do very well, if your DM lets the class stack with your Bloodrager bloodline, so may be better than Fighter/Sorcerer for your purposes.

[Peat]

Comparing this character to a 9th level fighter...

He has 5 bonus feats, you have two and a Rogue talent.
He has BAB 9 and Weapons training 2, you have BAB 6 but with +2 higher strength
He has heavy armour with Armour training 2, you have no armour bar for your natural armour increase of 2.
Saves of 6/3/3 vs 4/4/5
He has an average of 50 HP, you have an average of 48 HP (starting with Fighter)

And you have second level spells. In a vacuum you're stronger, if the Cleric or Sorcerer love buffing, the straight fighter is stronger.

So you're probably basically roughly a 9th level Fighter with the odd utility spell and Trapfinding. Whether that's terrible is up to you.


That all said, I would fight tooth and claw to get Trapfinding from any other source than the Corebook Rogue and am mystified as to why anyone would frown on Archetypes.

[Psyren]

To tell the truth OP, I'm not sure what either rogue or fighter are doing here besides robbing you of casting and bloodline progression. Fighter 2 is giving a bit of BAB and some feats, sure, but being 4 levels behind on your casting is a big deal as now you're just barely cracking 8ths.

Personally I would go with Sorcerer 12/DD8, or Sorcerer 6/DD4/Evangelist 10. Both will get you 18/20 casting (9th level spells), the former gets you BAB 12 and a 20/20 bloodline, and the latter gets you BAB 13 and a 19/20 bloodline. You'll get bonus feats under both as well, eclipsing what fighter would have gotten you. BAB doesn't matter as much anyway as DD primarily uses natural attacks, which don't get iteratives.



//EDIT: Totally ninja-ed! Dammit Psyren, this isn't the first time you've caught me sneaking off for snacks in the middle of posting! Do I have a target painted on my back or something, or have you hacked my webcam? :smalltongue: EDIT//

My apologies :smallredface:

[Spore]

Sorcerer 6 into DD 4 into Sorc 7 into DD 8 is my preferred modus operandi. Third level and Fifth level spells are such important milestones that you should delay your DD progression for it. I would never go past 8th level DD because you get the dragon form spell anyway, same as the wings. Take Magical Knack to offset the hit to CL.

If you want to further your melee capabilities without having to cast half a dozen spells you can dip into Barbarian 2, Fighter 1 or 2, Ranger 2 or even Alchemist.

[AZGrowler]

Sorcerer 6 into DD 4 into Sorc 7 into DD 8 is my preferred modus operandi. Third level and Fifth level spells are such important milestones that you should delay your DD progression for it. I would never go past 8th level DD because you get the dragon form spell anyway, same as the wings. Take Magical Knack to offset the hit to CL.

If you want to further your melee capabilities without having to cast half a dozen spells you can dip into Barbarian 2, Fighter 1 or 2, Ranger 2 or even Alchemist.

If you're going to dip into a martial class, and don't mind being lawful good, 2 levels of Paladin give you Divine Grace. Your Charisma is likely to be high, so you'd be sitting pretty. Also, a gold or silver dragon would be thematically appropriate.