Low-level PC and flight

[Laurefindel]

Considering character with flight as a racial trait, in what circumstances is it the most problematic (read; gamebreaking)?

- It allows the character to bypass pressure-triggered traps.

- It allows the character to disengage "upward", thus getting out of range of melee retaliation attacks.

- It enables the character to fight flying opponents in melee.

what else?

[busterswd]

Allows players to bypass land based puzzles/storylines (read: just about everything pre-5), ignore a variety of spells/effects that are ground based, gives them another potential entry point to buildings, gives them another option for gathering intel...

Basically it's the same problem as tiers in 3.5e: once a player has flying, you have to either specifically modify challenges to counteract flying, or they'll trivialize certain challenges.

[JoeJ]

Mostly the problems come down to making it a little easier to get off the DM's railroad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

once a player has flying, you have to either specifically modify challenges to counteract flying, or they'll trivialize certain challenges.
This. It's certainly nothing that can't be handled, but it does substantially alter a lot of plots and challenges you might otherwise have included. Doubly so if the PC is strong enough to carry someone else. Walls? Cliffs? Difficult terrain? Melee brutes? Good luck; designing encounters like that just got twice as hard. Forget anything where mobility is supposed to be a challenge. Flight isn't game-breaking, but it is game-changing.

[JoeJ]

My previous comment was not entirely fair. Flight at any level has the same effect: it facilitates a more sandbox/less linear and more CAW/less CAS play style. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of taste.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My previous comment was not entirely fair. Flight at any level has the same effect: it facilitates a more sandbox/less linear and more CAW/less CAS play style. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of taste.
The thing is, I don't think that's really true. Flight by itself is a very potent problem-solving tool-- one that replaces a good portion of the Athletics skill as well as a number of lesser spells and class abilities, but it's still ultimately a tactical thing. You might be able to skip over steps of a poorly-designed adventure an adventure not designed with flight in mind, but it's not going to be able to force a sandbox. Nothing is, really-- that's a very specific game style-- but it doesn't have the same strategic punch as something like teleport.

[JoeJ]

The thing is, I don't think that's really true. Flight by itself is a very potent problem-solving tool-- one that replaces a good portion of the Athletics skill as well as a number of lesser spells and class abilities, but it's still ultimately a tactical thing. You might be able to skip over steps of a poorly-designed adventure an adventure not designed with flight in mind, but it's not going to be able to force a sandbox. Nothing is, really-- that's a very specific game style-- but it doesn't have the same strategic punch as something like teleport.

I said facilitates, not forces. It makes it easier for the party to go off in any direction (although not a lot easier if only some of the PCs can fly) because they have a few more options to deal with some types of obstacles.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I said facilitates, not forces. It makes it easier for the party to go off in any direction (although not a lot easier if only some of the PCs can fly) because they have a few more options to deal with some types of obstacles.
That's really only a thing if the DM tries to use physical barriers to enforce railroading, though. If the group is inclined to go off in any direction, they'll do that anyway; ditto if they're happy to follow the plot-as-presented.

[Laurefindel]

My previous comment was not entirely fair. Flight at any level has the same effect: it facilitates a more sandbox/less linear and more CAW/less CAS play style. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of taste.

Fair enough.

So I understand that before 5th level-ish, PCs with flight can facilitate many things that the other characters lack the tools to facilitate yet

[JoeJ]

That's really only a thing if the DM tries to use physical barriers to enforce railroading, though. If the group is inclined to go off in any direction, they'll do that anyway; ditto if they're happy to follow the plot-as-presented.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that. If everybody at the table wants a straight linear adventure, the player's aren't going to use flight to screw that up. If everybody wants sandbox, the DM doesn't have to do anything for a party with a flier that they wouldn't have done anyway. If the DM and other players don't all want the same kind of game, there's going to be problems regardless of whether or not any of the PCs can fly.


So I understand that before 5th level-ish, PCs with flight can facilitate many things that the other characters lack the tools to facilitate yet

I'd say a flying character can facilitate many things that the other characters would have to use different means to accomplish, but that they could still do if they're clever.