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Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 10:55 AM
So, I'm finally getting back into tabletop gaming (specifically GMing this time around) and want to revamp an old project I haven't touched in two years, maybe even finish it this time around.

So, from the original thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333370-Feat-Point-System-for-Pathfinder):


Feat Points
Each time a character gains a feat, she instead gets 10 feat points which she can use to purchase feats. Characters must still meet all prerequisites as normal. Unspent feat points carry over from level to level, but a character can only purchase feats with feat points at the times in her adventuring career when she could normally select a feat, even if she has extra feat points left over (for example, a character with 6 feat points left over from character level 3 could not spend them until level 6--the next level at which she gains a feat) .


A class that grants bonus feats grants bonus feat points of the appropriate type. For example, the fighter class gives 10 fighter feat points at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, and so on. Typed feat points can only be used on feats of the appropriate type, so a fighter can only use his fighter feat points to purchase fighter feats. However, any normal (typeless) feat points can be combined with typed feat points to purchase typed feats. You can still only use these feat points to purchase feats of the type you could normally purchase at that level.
Example:Tegdar is a human ftr1 with 3 typeless feat points left over from 1st level. He reaches 2nd level and gains 10 fighter feat points. Tegdar decides to use 7 of those points to purchase Combat Reflexes (cost: 7 points) , leaving him with 3 fighter feat points and 3 normal feat points. He decides to combine these feat points and purchase Far Shot (cost: 6points) . He now is completely out of feat points. He could not have used his 3 normal feat points to purchase feats other than fighter feats because he can only select those feats at level 1, 3, 6, and so on.

Feat Point Debt
At 1st level, and 1st level only, a character is allowed to overspend her feat points by selecting one or more feats with a cost of 11 or more feat points. The extra cost of these feats is carried over until the next time she gains feat points of the appropriate type. She can go into "feat point debt" up to 3 points. Feat point debt is tracked separately by type of feat point (typeless, fighter, wizard, etc.) .The feat point debt system allows characters using it to maintain parity with characters who don't (characters using the standard rules could sometimes end up with several strong feats at 1st level, penalizing the feat-point character) .

Example: Vidda, a halflingrog1, has 10 feat points. She selects Two-Weapon Fighting (11 points) and goes into feat point debt by for point. The next time she gains typeless feat points (3rd level) she only gains 9instead of 10 because of the 1-point debt. She gains the normal 10 feat points at levels 6, 9, and so on.
Example:Tegdar, a human ftr1, has 20 typeless feat points (10 from being1st-level, 10 from being human) and 10 fighter feat points. He chooses Point Blank Shot (9 points) and Two-Weapon Fighting with his typless feat points, which brings his typeless feat points to 0 (if there were a 12-point feat he qualified for, he could have selected that instead of Two-Weapon fighting, which would have put him in debt for 1feat point) . He purchases Rapid Shot (11 points) with his fighter feat points, which puts him in debt for one fighter feat point. At 2ndlevel, he gains 9 fighter feat points instead of 10 because of the1-point debt. He gains the normal 10 fighter feat points at fighter level 4, 6, and so on. His typeless feat points (at level 3, 6, and soon) are unaffected (though if he had chosen a 12-point feat instead of Two-Weapon Fighting he would have paid that typeless feat point debt at level 3 when he gained more feat points) .


Virtual Feats
Virtual feats, such as those conditional feats granted by the monk and ranger classes, do not grant feat points, cost feat points, or cause or negate feat point debt.



Tiers


Tier 6 represents feats that are either incredibly niche in their function, more fluff than actual substance or are actual detriments to the characters who take them.
Cost Guideline: 1 point

Altitude Affinity
Ammo Drop
Archon Style
Armor Proficiency, Heavy
Armor Proficiency, Light
Armor Proficiency, Medium
Blood Ties
Burning Spell
Caustic Slur
Conviction
Corsair
Critical Conduit
Desert Dweller
Dog Killer, Horse Hunter
Draconic Discipline
Drugged Healing
Druidic Decoder
Eschew Materials
Exotic Weapon Proficiency
Experienced Vagabond
Expert Driver
Eyes of Judgement
Fast Crawl
Feral Combat Training
Flagbearer
Fury's Fall
Groundling
Galley Slave
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Hymn Singer
Imperial Conscript
Improved Day Job
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Intimidating Prowess
Juggle Load
Jumper
Leaf Singer
Letter Fury
Life-Dominant Soul
Lithe Attacker [Note: This feat is almost never able to be taken by PCs. If taken by animal companions, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
Master of Falconry
Master of Wonders
Master of Your Kind [Note: This feat is not able to be taken by PCs. If taken by a Familiar, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
Narrow Frame [Note: This feat is almost never able to be taken by PCs. If taken by animal companions, a GM is advised to not rank this feat above Tier 5.]
Ostentatious Display
Pass for Human
Potent Holy Symbol
Precocious Youth
Quick Preparation
Razortusk
Reject Poison
Renown [Note: This feat is only for Pathfinder Society and as such should not be allowed in normal games.]
Revered Guidance
Rugged Northerner
Sandwalker
Schooled Reserve
Skilled Driver
Stable Gallop
Storm-Lashed
Superintendant
Supernal Feast
Sure-Footed
Sure Grasp
Sword Oath
Terrifying Mask
Torch Handling
Tribe Mentality
Two-Weapon Fighting
Urban Forager
Valiant Steed
Vandal (Goblin)
Variant Prayer-Scroll
Wall of Flesh (Teamwork)



Tier 5 represents feats that are functional as they're written, but are rarely, if ever, optimal character choices outside of certain context.
Cost Guideline: 3 points


Acrobatic
Advanced Defensive Combat Training
Agile Maneuvers
Alignment Channel
Amateur Gunslinger
Ancestral Scorn
Animal Affinity
Ankle Biter
Antagonize
Arc Slinger
Arcane Armor Training
Arcane Insight
Arcane Strike
Arcane Trap Suppressor
Arcane Vendetta
Archon Diversion
Aspect of the Beast
Athletic
Aversion Tolerance
Babble-Peddler
Back to Back
Banishing Critical
Banner of Doom
Bashing Finish
Battle Singer
Bear Hug
Beartrap Bite
Bend with the Wind
Betraying Blow
Binding Throw
Black Marketeer
Blade Binder
Blazing Aura
Bleeding Attack
Bleeding Critical
Blighted Critical (Critical)
Blinding Critical
Blinding Flash
Blinding Light
Blistering Feint
Bloodletting
Bloody Assault
Bloody Vengeance
Blowout Shot Deed (Grit)
Bludgeoner
Boar Ferocity
Boar Style
Body Control
Bodyguard
Body Mastery
Body Shield
Bolster Jinx
Bonebreaker
Bounding Hammer
Breadth of Experience
Break Guard
Brutal Grappler
Bull Rush Strike
Bullseye Shot
Bullying Blow
Burn! Burn! Burn!
Catch Off-guard
Cautious Fighter
Chain-flail Master
Channeling Scourge
Channel Smite
Charge of the Righteous
Charge Through
Charging Hurler
Chokehold
Claw Pounce
Cleave
Cleaving Finish
Close Call
Close-Quarters Thrower
Cloud Step
Cloven Helm
Coaxing Spell
Cockatrike Strike
Cold Celerity
Combat Distraction
Combat Expertise
Combat Style Master
Combat Medic
Companion Figurine
Coordinated Maneuvers
Cornugon Shield
Cornugon Smash
Cornugon Stun
Cornugon Trip
Cosmopolitan
Covering Defense
Create Reliquary Arms and Shields
Crippling Critical
Critical Focus
Crossbow Mastery
Crusader's Fist - Why?
Crusdaer's Flurry
Crushing Blow
Cursed Item Detection
Cut Your Losses
Dampen Presence
Dark Adept
Darting Viper
Deadly Dealer
Deadly Stroke
Deafening Critical
Death or Glory
Deathless Initiate
Deathless Master
Deathless Zealot
Deceitful
Deep Drinker
Deflect Arrows
Deft Hands
Deft Shootist Deed
Demoralizing Lash
Dented Helm
Deny Death
Dervish Dance
Desperate Battler
Desperate Swing
Destroyer's Blessing
Devastating Strike
Diehard
Dilettante
Dimensional Assault
Dimension Dervish
Dimensional Maneuvers
Dimensional Savant
Dire Bat Shape
Disarming Strike
Disengaging Feint
Disengaging Flourish
Disengaging Shot
Disorienting Blow
Dispelling Critical (Critical)
Dispelling Fist
Disposable Weapon
Disrupting Shot
Distance Thrower
Divine Denouncer
Double Bane
Double Slice
Draconic Defender
Drag Down
Dragonbane Aura
Dragonheart
Drugged Euphoria
Drunken Brawler
Dueling Mastery
Duelist
Echoing Spell
Efreeti Stance
Efreeti Style
Efreeti Touch
Eldritch Claws
Elemental Fist
Elephant Stomp
Elusive Redirection
Elven Battle Training
Endurance
Enforcer
Enhanced Ki Throw
Ensemble (Teamwork)
Equipment Trick
Exploit Lore
Extra Evolution
Extra Feature
Extra Gnome Magic
Extra Ki
False Casting
False Opening
Famine Tolerance
Far Shot
Fast Drinker
Fast Healer
Favored Judgement
Fearsome Barricade
Feinting Flurry
Felling Escape
Felling Smash
Ferocious Tenacity
Fiendish Darkness
Fiendish Facade
Fiendish Heritage
Fiendish Resilience
Final Embrace
Final Embrace Master
Fight On
Firebrand
Fire God's Blessing
Fire Hand
Fleet
Focused Shot
Fortified Armor Training
Fortunate Manager
Fortunate Ruler
Fox Shape
Fury of the Tainted
Fury's Snare
Giant Killer
Gloom Strike
Glorious Heat [Note: If the unofficial errata is not used, this feat is Tier 1.]
Gnome Weapon Focus
Gnome Trickster
Goblin Cleaver
Goblin Gunslinger
Golden Legion's Stayed Blade
Gorefriend
Gorgon's Fist
Gory Finish
Great Cleave
Great Hatred
Greater Channel Smite
Greater Grapple
Greater Mercy
Great Fortitude
Grudge Fighter
Gunsmithing
Gliding Steps
Halfling Slinger
Hamatula Grasp
Hamatula Strike
Hamatulatsu Strike
Hammer the Gap
Hard-headed
Harmonic Sage
Harmonic Spell
Harrowed
Haunted Gnome
Haunted Gnome Assault
Heighten Spell
Hellcat Pounce
Helpless Prisoner
Heroic Defiance
Heroic Recovery
Hex Strike
Hold the Blade
Horse Master
Impact Critical Shot
Impaling Critical
Imperial Squire
Improved Back to Back
Improved Dirty Trick
Improved Disarm
Improved Drag
Improved Feinting Flurry
Improved Fiendish Darkness
Improved Fury of the Tainted
Improved Grapple
Improved Impaling Critical
Improved Ki Throw
Improved Low Blow
Improved Stalwart
Improved Stonecunning
Improved Surprise Follow-Through
Improved Two-Weapon Feint
Improvised Weapon Mastery
Inner Light
Intimidating Gaze
Invoke Primal Instinct
Ironguts
Ironhide
Iron Will
Island Blood
Jawbreaker
Ki Diversity
Ki Stand
Ki Throw
Knockout Artist
Kobold Ambusher
Kobold Sniper
Landing Roll
Large Target
Lead from the Back
Leaping Shot Deed
Learn Ranger Trap
Legacy of Heroes
Let Them Come
Life Lure
Lightning Reflexes
Light Step
Lookout
Low Profile
Mark of Evil
Master Alchemist
Meditation Master
Meditative Concentration
Merciless Rush
Monstrous Mask
Mystic Stride
Named Bullet (Grit)
Nature Soul
Neckbreaker
Nimble Moves [Note: GMs are advised to refund the cost of this feat and its subsequent feat, as it is invalidated by the third part in the chain.]
No Name (Grit)
Oracular Intuition
Persuasive
Phalanx Fighter (Teamwork)
Planar Hunter
Power Attack
Prodigy
Pure Faith
Radiant Charge
Raging Brutality
Raging Hurler
Raging Throw
Reward of Grace
Ricochet Shot Deed (Grit)
Ricochet Splash Weapon
Righteous Healing
Roof Runner
Run
Scholar
Sea Legs
Secret Signs
Secret Stash Deed
Seeds of Doubt
Selective Spell
Self-Sufficient
Shake It Off
Shapeshifter Foil
Shared Insight
Sharp Senses
Sickening Critical
Signature Deed
Sin Seer
Sly Draw
Smell Fear
Sneaking Precision
Sneaky Vagabond
Sniper Shot
Sociable
Spear Dancer
Spider Step
Splintering Weapon
Squash Flat
Staggering Critical
Stalwart
Stealthy
Steel Soul
Stoic
Stone Faced
Stone Read
Stone Singer
Strong Comeback
Summoner's Call
Sunlit Strike
Survivor
Swift Kitsune Shapechanger (Kitsune)
Team Pickpocket
Thoughtful Discernment
Tiring Critical
Totem Spirit
Tribal Scars
Ultimate Resolve
Uncanny Alertness
Undermining Exploit
Unsanctioned Detection
Vermin Empathy
Vigilant Eidolon
Voice of the Sibyl
Walker Among Evil
War Singer
Warrior Priest
Weapon Finesse
Well-Prepared
Whip-Shot Deed (Grit)
Widen Spell





Tier 4 represents feats that are well written and decent character build options. They are even chosen most of the time for most builds, but are ultimately less powerful and/or less useful than actual class features. Feats that grant multiple uses of lesser class features also fall under this tier.
Cost Guideline: 5 points


Acrobatic Steps
Adept Champion
Adept Channel
Advanced Ranger Trap
Allied Spellcaster
Amplified Rage
Animal Ally
Arcane School Spirit
Arcane Shield
Arcane Talent
Atheist Abjurations
Betrayer
Blighted Critical Mastery
Blind-Fight
Blundering Defense
Boar Shred
Bolstered Resistance
Broken Wing Gambit
Butterfly Sting (Critical)
Careful Speaker
Cartwheel Dodge
Childlike
Cleave Through
Clustered Shots
Combat Patrol
Combat Reflexes
Conceal Scent
Concussive Spell
Coordinated Defense
Create Sanguine Elixir
Critical Mastery
Critical Versatility
Dazing Assault
Dazzling Display
Deadly Aim
Death from Above
Deceptive Exchange
Deepsight
Defending Eidolon
Demon Hunter
Die for Your Master
Discordant Voice
Disorienting Maneuver
Disruptive Spell
Divination Guide
Divine Defiance
Dodge
Dragoncrafting
Drugged Rejuvenation
Duck and Cover (Teamwork)
Eagle Eyes
Eldritch Eye
Eldritch Heritage
Elemental Focus
Elemental Spell
Elven Accuracy
Empower Spell
Escape Route (Teamwork)
Exhausting Critical
Extra Bane
Extra Cantrips or Orisons
Extra Grit
Extra Ranger Trap
Extra Rogue Talent
Fast Change
Fast Empathy
Favored Defense
Fearless Aura
Fearsome Finish
Fey Foundling
Field Repair
Final Embrace Horror
Fire Magic
Flaring Spell
Focused Discipline
Focused Eidolon
Following Step
Free Spirit
Friendly Switch
Friend to Animals
Furious Finish
Gang Up
Godless Healing
Greater Blighted Critical
Greater Dirty Trick
Greater Drag
Greater Elemental Focus
Greater Feint
Greater Wild Empathy
Gunslinger
Haunted Gnome Shroud
Improved Channel
Improved Counterspell
Improved Critical
Improved Feint
Improved Great Fortitude
Improved Initiative
Improved Iron Will
Improved Lightning Reflexes
In Harm's Way
Inner Flame
Intensify Spell
Intimidating Bane
Jackal Heritage
Jaguar Pounce
Jinxed Spell
Keen Scent
Lightning Stance
Lingering Performance
Lucky Halfling
Lucky Strike
Lunge
Magical Aptitude
Magical Tail
Master Craftsmen
Master of the Ledger
Maximize Spell
Maximized Spellstrike
Menacing Bane
Merciful Bane
Minotaur's Charge
Moonlight Summons
Natural Ruler
Necromatic Affinity
Nimble Natural Summons
Peshish Magic
Powerful Shape
Practiced Tactician
Protector's Strike
Quick Channel
Remote Bomb
Resilient Eidolon
Reward of Life
Rhetorical Flourish
Sense Link
Shadow Grasp
Shapeshifting Hunter
Shatter Resolve
Shielded Caster
Sickening Spell
Silent Spell
Siphon Poison
Skill Focus
Slayer's Knack
Small But Deadly
Sorcerous Bloodstrike
Spell Bane
Spontaneous Metafocus
Starlight Summons
Stealth Synergy
Still Spell
Stone Sense
Sunlight Summons
Theurgy
Threatening Illusion
Thundering Spell
Ultimate Mercy
Vampiric Companion
Versatile Jinxer
Wand Dancer
Wild Speech
Witch Knife
Word of Healing



Tier 3 represents feats that could easily be seen as actual class features on a well written base class or prestige class, though aren't likely to cause problems in game balance by themselves. Feats that grant multiple uses of a greater class feature also fall under this tier.
Cost Guideline: 10 points


Abundant Revelations
Accursed Critical (Critical)
Accursed Hex
Additional Traits
Ancient Draconic
Arcane Blast
Arcane Jinxer
Area Jinx
Bat Shape [Note: This feat is probably tier 2 before level 5.]
Bestow Hope
Bewildering Koan
Bloodmarked Flight
Blood of Heroes
Boon Companion
Branded Retribution
Celestial Obedience
Center of Power
Channeled Revival
Channeled Shield Wall
Consecrate Spell
Contingent Channeling
Cypher Magic
Dastardly Finish
Deadly Finish
Demonic Obedience
Destroy Identity
Detect Expertise
Disruptive Recall
Distant Jinx
Divine Deception
Divine Interference
Ectoplasmic Spell
Effortless Trickery
Elemental Channel
Enlarge Spell
Esoteric Advantage
Evolved Familiar
Expert Trainer
Extend Spell
Extended Bane
Extra Arcana
Extra Arcane Pool
Extra Bombs [Note: If no useful bomb Discoveries have been taken, this feat is tier 5.]
Extra Channel
Extra Discovery
Extra Hex
Extra Item Slot
Extra Lay on Hands
Extra Mercy
Extra Performance
Extra Rage
Extra Rage Power
Extra Revelation
Fascination Jinx
Flanking Foil
Focused Disbelief
Focused Spell
Furious Focus
Go Unnoticed
Grant Initiative
Greater Eldritch Heritage
Greater Spell Focus
Greater Spell Penetration
Green Guardian
Guided Hand
Hellcast Stealth
Hero's Fortune
Imperial Knight
Implant Bomb
Improved Eldritch Heritage
Improved Learn Ranger Trap
Improved Monster Lore
Improved Share Spells
Indomitable Mount
Insightful Gaze
Inspirational Commander
Instant Judgement
Jinx Alchemy
Judgement Surge
Lingering Spell
Luck of Heroes
Malicious Eye
Merciful Spell
Noble Scion
Ordered Mind
Painful Anchor
Pantheistic Blessing
Parry Spell
Piercing Spell
Planar Wild Shape
Practiced Leadership
Prophetic Visionary
Quick Wild Shape
Raging Deathblow
Raging Vitality
Shade of the Woodlands
Shadow Gambit
Shaping Focus
Shared Judgement
Skeleton Summoner
Sluggish Jinx
Spell Bluff
Spell Focus
Spell Penetration
Spellsong
Split Hex
Split Major Hex
Thanatopic Spell
Threnodic Spell
Turn Undead
Umbral Spell
Uncanny Activation






Tier 2 represents feats that are starting to get too good for characters to have. They cause a lot of headaches at the game table when it comes to running a balanced game, but they don't usually break a campaign by themselves.
Cost Guideline: 15 points


Augment Summoning
Bloodmage Initiate
Bouncing Spell
Combat Casting
Command Undead
Cooperative Crafting
Cypher Script
Defensive Combat Training
Dimensional Agility [Note: This is tier 5 for monks.]
Dispel Synergy
Diviner’s Delving
Expanded Arcana
Extra Summons
Familiar Focus
Familiar Spell
Focused Overseer
Fortune Teller
Greater Spell Specialization
Improved Familiar
Improved Fiendish Sorcery
Mage's Tattoo
Major Spell Expertise
Peacemaker
Planar Preservationist
Reach Spell
Rime Spell
Sacred Summons
Shadow Dodge
Spell Mastery
Steadfast Mind
Summon Good Monster
Summon Neutral Monster
Superior Summoning
Tapestry Traveler
Tenacious Transmutation
Tenebrous Spell
Toppling Spell
Uncanny Concentration
Undead Master



Tier 1 represents feats that are simply too good and probably would end up on most ban lists from sensible GMs who aren't running a "High Op" game. There is almost no way to reconcile these feats, as they're written, with game balance and they most certainly can smash a campaign by their lonesome.
Cost Guideline: 20 points


Destructive Dispel
Energy Attunement
Focused Worker
Leadership
Minor Spell Expertise
Natural Spell
Planned Spontaneity
Persistent Spell
Preferred Spell
Quicken Spell
Spell Hex
Spell Perfection
Squire [Note: If a GM does not allow this feat to upgrade to Leadership, it is Tier 3 instead.]
Torchbearer [Note: If a GM does not allow this feat to upgrade to Leadership, it is Tier 3 instead.]





4/2/16
- Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting added to tier 4.
- Power Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting moved to tier 5; Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting added to Tier 5.
- Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Fighting moved to Tier 6. Magical Tail added to Tier 4.

4/3/16
- Weapon Finesse added to Tier 5.


Now, this time around I'm not going to be delving into the minutiae of pricing feats in the same tier against one another. There is one flat floor cost for the entire tier to be used as a guideline for pricing as the feats should roughly measure up to other feats in the same tier.


Also, I'm going to take a more reactive approach than proactive with adding to this tier list; I have a full time job now and limited free time, so I'll be taking requests for feats to be tiered into this system and will only go through and add new ones sporadically.

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 10:56 AM
Reserved Post A

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 10:57 AM
Reserved Post B

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 10:59 AM
Reserved Post C

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 11:00 AM
Reserved Post D

Jormengand
2016-04-02, 11:05 AM
I find it odd that common feats like power attack and two-weapon fighting aren't listed. What gives?

Bashing Finish's bold tag is broken.

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 11:08 AM
I find it odd that common feats like power attack and two-weapon fighting aren't listed. What gives?

Don't expect you to remember from nearly two years back, but I was originally doing everything alphabetically and hadn't started the Ms for combat feats before stopping this project.

I'll take those two as the first suggestions though. :smallwink:


Bashing Finish's bold tag is broken.

Thanks.

Edit:

Power Attack: I placed this feat as tier 4, mostly because I don't know where would be proper to place this feat. It's practically a requirement for any kind of melee build, so it's not, by its nature, tier 5 material, but I do know there is a good argument that it should be just a normal part of the combat rules. As such, I could see the argument for it to be tiered lower.

Actually, I did tier Piranha Strike as tier 5, and that's the dex version of Power Attack...Hm...should I raise PS or lower PA...

Two-Weapon Fighting: As memory serves it's inferior to two-handing a weapon and I could see it argued as being a lower tier for the same reasons as Power Attack.

Jormengand
2016-04-02, 11:24 AM
Don't expect you to remember from nearly two years back, but I was originally doing everything alphabetically and hadn't started the Ms for combat feats before stopping this project.

Actually, I do. I just assumed you'd got further because of having later letters. I'd recommend tiering all of the feats that are copies or near-copies of ones in 3.5 core.

I'd lower PA; make it T5 and TWF T6, then make all of the scaling TWF feats (ITWF, GTWF... does PTWF exist in PF any more?) T6 as well. They're basically feat taxes to do something you should be able to do anyway.

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 11:30 AM
Actually, I do. I just assumed you'd got further because of having later letters. I'd recommend tiering all of the feats that are copies or near-copies of ones in 3.5 core.

The PSRD had it's feats organized weird; they separate it by the feat type and then by letter. So I had started with General Feats and got mostly through combat feats, at the time.


I'd lower PA; make it T5 and TWF T6, then make all of the scaling TWF feats (ITWF, GTWF... does PTWF exist in PF any more?) T6 as well. They're basically feat taxes to do something you should be able to do anyway.

I don't know if I agree with the TWF line being T6 though. T6 is really reserved for feats that are completely trash, make your character objectively worse/more vulnerable or are so commonly ignored/house ruled out that they might not even exist.

TWF may be kind of feat taxy, but I don't know if they belong that low.

Jormengand
2016-04-02, 11:47 AM
I would argue that any serious attempt to use the TWF feats really does make your character worse. Anyway, all the armour proficiencies are also listed as T6, and so is EWP: Spiked Chain which is one of the most powerful feats in the game (EWP bastard sword is also pretty good for one feat point if you're trying to sword-and-board or TWF). Ammo drop is listed because if you're using it, you're using a bad fighting style (it's actually practically necessary for someone who is trying to fight with a sling for some reason).

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 12:18 PM
I would argue that any serious attempt to use the TWF feats really does make your character worse. Anyway, all the armour proficiencies are also listed as T6, and so is EWP: Spiked Chain which is one of the most powerful feats in the game (EWP bastard sword is also pretty good for one feat point if you're trying to sword-and-board or TWF). Ammo drop is listed because if you're using it, you're using a bad fighting style (it's actually practically necessary for someone who is trying to fight with a sling for some reason).

I'm going to need a little more evidence that pursuing TWF does make your character worse, but I'm definitely open for the discussion.

The armor proficiency are tier 6 because:
A: An enchanted mithral Chain shirt is probably one of, if not the, best armors in the game, so expending any resources beyond light armor prof is completely asinine.
B: A single level dip in Fighter nets you all three, plus weapon proficiency and you STILL get a bonus feat, on top of all that.

I'd probably just add a colloquiary that the feat should be priced higher if taken for Spiked Chain or Bastard Sword. Exceptions don't cause the feat to be re-tiered wholesale unless they're a major exception.

Ammo Drop is tier 6 because it frankly doesn't make sense that you can't already reload as move action and because it only applies with slings, instead of all ranged weapons.

Jormengand
2016-04-02, 12:54 PM
Well, if you try to TWF with a longsword and a shortsword, then you deal on average one more damage than someone with a greatsword, you lose most of your power attack potential, and you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You also have to enchant the two weapons separately and gain no benefit whatsoever on a non-full attack, including a charge. The only real benefit is for precision damage, and even then you're usually better off wielding a two-handed weapon. If you can make TWF actually a good idea, you're doing something very odd and probably doing more than just taking the TWF-chain feats. At the moment, just making all of your offhand attacks costs you 9 points, which is almost enough to get you a feat that's actually good. Or take power attack, cleave and great cleave, all of which are way better than the TWF feats.

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-02, 04:03 PM
Well, if you try to TWF with a longsword and a shortsword, then you deal on average one more damage than someone with a greatsword, you lose most of your power attack potential, and you take a -2 penalty on attack rolls. You also have to enchant the two weapons separately and gain no benefit whatsoever on a non-full attack, including a charge. The only real benefit is for precision damage, and even then you're usually better off wielding a two-handed weapon. If you can make TWF actually a good idea, you're doing something very odd and probably doing more than just taking the TWF-chain feats. At the moment, just making all of your offhand attacks costs you 9 points, which is almost enough to get you a feat that's actually good. Or take power attack, cleave and great cleave, all of which are way better than the TWF feats.

Good points made.


Magical Tail: This feat requires heavy investment to get anything terribly good out of it, but we don't want the better SLAs to be gained too early.

noob
2016-04-02, 05:21 PM
Spell mastery is not really a great feat.
Except when your gm absolutely loves killing your spellbook.

Tanuki Tales
2016-04-03, 03:01 PM
Spell mastery is not really a great feat.
Except when your gm absolutely loves killing your spellbook.

A Wizard's spell book is one of the only real weaknesses that a Wizard logistically has. Now, spending gold is always a preferable expenditure of resources than burning a feat slot, but if they happen to have a free slot they aren't otherwise using, then always being able to prepare a large selection of their best spells is gravy.

This feat is tier 2 as, unless the GM knows how to play the Wizard at their own game, it removes one of the few stop gaps/potential targets for the Wizard's exponential power curve. It can potentially unbalance a game.

Edit:

Weapon Finesse: You should already be able to use Dex instead of Str, at least for certain weapons. This feat, while commonly taken, doesn't really give you a bonus.

Cosi
2016-04-04, 06:20 PM
A lot of the stuff in tier 1 looks largely harmless. I would not take Persist Spell without metamagic reduction, and as such it seems rather unfair to call it "broken". A lot of other stuff doesn't look super impressive to me. Minor Spell Expertise is an extra spell slot. An extra 1st level spell slot. That's committed when you take the feat. That comes after you have 4th level spells. I would have to see some very compelling cheese to be convinced it should be banned.


This feat is tier 2 as, unless the GM knows how to play the Wizard at their own game, it removes one of the few stop gaps/potential targets for the Wizard's exponential power curve. It can potentially unbalance a game.

I can honestly say that I would never take that feat, even in a DM arms race situation. I would rather just get more power and defend my spellbook with that power. Or make copies of my spellbook.

Jormengand
2016-04-05, 06:49 AM
A lot of the stuff in tier 1 looks largely harmless. I would not take Persist Spell without metamagic reduction, and as such it seems rather unfair to call it "broken". A lot of other stuff doesn't look super impressive to me. Minor Spell Expertise is an extra spell slot. An extra 1st level spell slot. That's committed when you take the feat. That comes after you have 4th level spells. I would have to see some very compelling cheese to be convinced it should be banned.

Yeah, I have to agree here. Destructive Dispel makes DM and GDM - two fairly situational spells more useful, but only if you're using a specific type of dispel. Energy attunement turns polymorph into shapechange and really is broken. I have no idea how Focused Worker works or what it does so I can't comment except to say that it would be really annoying if you suddenly needed your neglected capital. Minor Spell Expertise would possibly be nice if there were any 1st-level spells with expensive material components, but I don't think there are. Natural spell is a feat tax, though I suppose I'm happy with druids taking a double-tax. Planned Spontaneity is pretty powerful, but not super-awesome-amazing. Same with preferred spell. Quicken spell isn't actually usually worth the 4-level adjustment, and persist spell definitely isn't worth the 6-level adjustment. Spell hex is an odd version of Minor Spell Expertise. Spell perfection is pretty good.

And yeah, I don't take spell mastery either.

nikkoli
2016-04-05, 11:42 AM
Inthe tear one I think that references pathfinder persistent spell not 3.5s persist spell. It's a +2 spell level metamagic and it does this

Persistent Spell (Metamagic)

You can modify a spell to become more tenacious when its targets resist its effect.

Benefit: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

Level Increase: +2 (a persistent spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.)

Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell’s effect do not benefit from this feat.


Also the only time I've ever seen spell mastery used is when I made an arcanist and at lvl 5 they got it as a free feat because of the archetype I was using and it was one of the entry requirements for the PRC i was planning to go into.

Also I think that Piranha strike, power attack and Deadly aim should be in the same tier of feat, seeing as how they have the same function just on different types of weapons.

Hamste
2016-04-05, 12:42 PM
Why is undead master rated that high? Being able to animate 16 more HD (Including desecrate) with a casting of animate dead isn't that good The only time that is good is if you are for some reason limited on time or want to animate one really big undead. Having medium sized undead tend to be better than one big one. I guess command undead duration doubled is ok but hardly worthy of tier 2.

Also why is ultimate mercy tier 4? If we are going by is it worthy to have as a class feature then the answer is yes, free raise deads are almost certainly a good class feature. There is an entire archetype dedicated to a similar ability (but not quite identical, it is one per week reincarnate on your self) the archetype isn't considered exceptional but that is mostly because of how good druid already is.

Cosi
2016-04-06, 11:11 PM
Energy attunement turns polymorph into shapechange and really is broken.

Remember, this is for PF and PF polymorph doesn't (IIRC) do anything super impressive. For 3e, that's obviously broken, but so is just abusing polymorph so I don't care about the feat.


I have no idea how Focused Worker works or what it does so I can't comment except to say that it would be really annoying if you suddenly needed your neglected capital.

From what I gathered reading that feat, all the cheese it could possibly do is less impressive than throwing guidance of the avatar onto your skill check. Maybe the system it plugs into is somehow broken, but I have difficulty imagining that being the feat's fault.


Natural spell is a feat tax, though I suppose I'm happy with druids taking a double-tax.

Natural Spell is too good relative to other feats, so every Druid takes it. It needs to either be cheap enough that Druids don't lose out on (relatively) unique abilities to take it, or expensive enough that there are other things worth the price. I personally prefer the cheap setting (it should be a bonus feat), as that encourages Druids to use Wild Shape. Obviously you would want the expensive setting if you were using the system to stealth nerf people.


Inthe tear one I think that references pathfinder persistent spell not 3.5s persist spell. It's a +2 spell level metamagic and it does this

That's good. Probably not broken, but closer than any of the other things I looked into explicitly. Also, having a spell have a larger immediate effect because it is "Persistent" is a flavor fail.


Also the only time I've ever seen spell mastery used is when I made an arcanist and at lvl 5 they got it as a free feat because of the archetype I was using and it was one of the entry requirements for the PRC i was planning to go into.

Also if you're using Uncanny Forethought (although Spontaneous Divination + Versatile Spellcaster is probably just better, outside of casting time reduction cheese).


Why is undead master rated that high? Being able to animate 16 more HD (Including desecrate) with a casting of animate dead isn't that good The only time that is good is if you are for some reason limited on time or want to animate one really big undead.

animate dead is pretty awesome at low levels. If you're level 5 (when Clerics, at least in 3e, get animate dead), getting 16 more hit dice of undead means you can animate a CR 7 Fire Giant Skeleton, which is as personally badass as any two members of your party. The benefit falls off pretty quick, but even if you're animating Ogre skeletons (CR 2), you're getting a PC-sized bang for your buck.

Hamste
2016-04-08, 09:23 AM
You could already animate ogres though and undead master doesn't actually give you more hd of control just allows you to animate more. What actual cr appropriate challenge is there that a level 5 pc can take out that you can animate that couldn't be animated with 20 hd but could be animated with 36 (or 10 hd and 18 hd if you are going variant skeletons which you always should). Say you killed a cr 7 monster which should be difficult but isn't impossible, the mean hit dice is 9 (with a standard deviation of 1.06) and the max for that cr is 12 (using a beautiful spread sheet made by someone going by the name shoelessinsight to find this information, not sure how up to date it is but holds almost 1300 different creatures in it) that means on average you don't even need the feat even if you are punching well above your weight. Unless the GM literally hands you the perfect undead to animate by allowing you to ransack a fire giant graveyard, you have to go out and search for a specifically high hd creature and then defeat it to use the feat...even then you probably would have been better off just to kill a lower hit die cr 7 opponent.

Cosi
2016-04-10, 10:01 PM
You could already animate ogres though and undead master doesn't actually give you more hd of control just allows you to animate more.

Wait, what? Doesn't that do literally nothing? animate dead already says:


No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled.

The way animate dead works by default is that you control up to 4 * CL HD worth of undead, with preference to more recent undead. Getting to animate more without getting to control more doesn't do anything. Unless you were supposed to voltron it with desecrate to animate a pile of in excess of your limit in one go (which animate dead indicates you would still control).

Could you quote the feat text?


What actual cr appropriate challenge is there that a level 5 pc can take out that you can animate that couldn't be animated with 20 hd but could be animated with 36 (or 10 hd and 18 hd if you are going variant skeletons which you always should).

I dunno, but the feat is literally an extra 6 CR on your side. At that level, Leadership is an extra 3 and that is probably the best feat. It falls behind, obviously, but it's stupid good at 5th level.

Hamste
2016-04-10, 10:33 PM
Wait, what? Doesn't that do literally nothing? animate dead already says:



The way animate dead works by default is that you control up to 4 * CL HD worth of undead, with preference to more recent undead. Getting to animate more without getting to control more doesn't do anything. Unless you were supposed to voltron it with desecrate to animate a pile of in excess of your limit in one go (which animate dead indicates you would still control).

Could you quote the feat text?



I dunno, but the feat is literally an extra 6 CR on your side. At that level, Leadership is an extra 3 and that is probably the best feat. It falls behind, obviously, but it's stupid good at 5th level.

Here is the feat text:

When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.


Undead master does literally nothing for the command undead feat. It only helps with this part of animate dead: Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.


There is a reason undead master is rated a trap in most necromancy handbooks. The feat doesn't actually function how it is supposed to. The only use for it is variant undead (They count as twice as much for animating but don't for controlling) or if you don't have desecrate on hand. Doubling the duration of the command undead spell is nice as well.

Cosi
2016-04-11, 02:09 PM
There is a reason undead master is rated a trap in most necromancy handbooks. The feat doesn't actually function how it is supposed to. The only use is for it is variant undead (They count as twice as much for animating but don't for controlling) or if you don't have desecrate on hand. Doubling the duration of the command undead spell is nice as well.

Oh, okay. That sounds pretty bad. The doubled command undead is nice, but probably not worth a whole feat. Something around half, and even then only in a relatively low-level environment, as command undead becomes decidedly unimpressive by the time you get 6th or 7th level spells.