Eyebite or Mass Suggestion, which is better?

[Degwerks]

As my 11th level warlock choice, i've narrowed it down to these 2 spells.

Which do you think is better? I am the only full caster in the party.

What are some ideas to use as my Suggestion to any potential foes?

[SharkForce]

mass suggestion is better. eyebite is only really particularly interesting if you have quicken spell.

some good suggestions:

"you should work for me" (be prepared to pay up, if necessary)
"you should run away, you can't win this fight"
"your boss is betraying you, you should stop working for him/her"
"you have no hope of winning, surrender"

depending on the specific enemy, you may be able to pull off other tricks. for example, with forgotten realms drow it is reasonable to believe that they are all planning on betraying each other. you can do a lot with that. a group working for a powerful wizard may find it reasonable to believe that said wizard used magic to make them work for the wizard. mercenaries can be persuaded that there is no realistic prospect of getting paid, which should lead to desertion. and so on.

[Degwerks]

The only thing I can see Quicken spell for Eyebite, for me, is allowing 2 creatures being targeted on the first round.

Both spells are good, suggestion is limited on creatures being able to hear & understand me, while eyebite works on any creature but only 1 per round and takes up concentration.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Um... Mass Suggestion is one of the best spells in the game. Why would you pick anything else?

What can you do with it? Well, imagine anything you can do with Command. Now multiply that number of things by a thousand, because now you can use whole sentences. On multiple targets.

[Tanarii]

Talk to your DM first. Mass Suggestion requires the suggestion seem reasonable. With some DMs, that may make it very weak against a hostile creature, and may be completely worthless in combat.

If that's the case, you're effectively choosing between a combat spell and a non-combat spell. So it's important to know in advance.

[SharkForce]

The only thing I can see Quicken spell for Eyebite, for me, is allowing 2 creatures being targeted on the first round.

and then, the next round, you quicken a spell, and can activate eyebite, because activating eyebite is not casting a spell, and it can take the place of a cantrip in the usual "quickened spell + cantrip" combo.

thus, useful with quicken, not very useful without.

[Tanarii]

thus, useful with quicken, not very useful without.Its useful without. You gain the effect of a magical (control) attack over multiple rounds without using up more spell slots to do it.

In other words, it's useful when resources conservation is an issue. If you're all about the Novas, not so much.

That makes it especially nice for a controllery warlock.

[SharkForce]

Its useful without. You gain the effect of a magical (control) attack over multiple rounds without using up more spell slots to do it.

In other words, it's useful when resources conservation is an issue. If you're all about the Novas, not so much.

That makes it especially nice for a controllery warlock.

mass suggestion gives you all of the control in the first round, without using up your concentration or your future actions.

or, if you specifically want fear, well, there's a spell for that as well. it is level 3, and does use up your concentration, but still doesn't cost your future actions. in fact, there are a variety of spells that provide multi-targeting control that lasts multiple rounds, and most of them don't use your future actions.

having eyebite available is marginally better than not having it available, but it is very hard to come up with a likely scenario where other spells don't do a better job, unless that scenario is "I want to quicken other spells and don't want to use a cantrip".

[Tanarii]

mass suggestion gives you all of the control in the first round, without using up your concentration or your future actions.That completely depends on your DM allowing it to be used effectively as a combat spell though. I agree if that's the case, Mass Suggestion wins hands down. IMX that's an even odds toss up, but on the other hand my sample size is fairly small for Mass Suggestion in play.


or, if you specifically want fear, well, there's a spell for that as well. it is level 3, and does use up your concentration, but still doesn't cost your future actions. in fact, there are a variety of spells that provide multi-targeting control that lasts multiple rounds, and most of them don't use your future actions.Yes there are. Eyebite is a more flexible (and thus more powerful) combat control spell than most of them. The cost of that is having to use your action to make each new attack.


having eyebite available is marginally better than not having it available, but it is very hard to come up with a likely scenario where other spells don't do a better job, unless that scenario is "I want to quicken other spells and don't want to use a cantrip".Gonna have to disagree. For Warlocks, unless your DM allows effective combat Mass Suggestion, it's a fantastic choice for Mystic Arcanum.

[Degwerks]

What I am concerned about for my Mystic Arcanum choice of either Eyebite or Mass Suggestion, is taking suggestion and the creatures not understanding my language.

As I am gaining higher foes to fight, we are gaining more creatures that don't speak common or infernal. In fact we had a lot last session that were from the plane of fire.
And like mentioned the DM would determine whether the mass suggestion is reasonable or not for combat.

[JellyPooga]

The thing that interests me is why, of all the 6th lvl spells available, these are the two options.

Conjure Fey is without doubt, the most versatile spell on the list and is my go-to for characters that don't actively oppose it thematically.

Arcane Gate might not appear to be much, but can very much be a thinking mans tool in combat and an effective one at that.

If it's just between Eyebite and Mass Suggestion, though? I'd go with Mass Suggestion. Mass Suggestion is a spell that you aren't going to use on a regular basis;but it's awesome when it does come in to play. I don't think you'll get regular use out of it; the language stipulation alone can be a hurdle to cross. When you do get to use it, however, you'll feel godlike.

Eyebite, on the other hand, is just another thing to make you vaguely better in combat. It will never be all that memorable using Eyebite, just as pinging yet another Eldritch Blast at someone is never memorable. You'll use it all the time, but while it's a handy boost to your regular combat effectiveness, it's not something that will change the outcome drastically.

[Degwerks]

I thought about Arcane Gate but I'm supposed to be receiving a Helm of Teleportation in game soon. Arcane Gate looks pretty good though for the many things I could do with it, but I wanted more Control style or Big pay off with my 1/day spell choice.

I never even looked at Conjure Fey, I'll go check that out.

[SharkForce]

That completely depends on your DM allowing it to be used effectively as a combat spell though. I agree if that's the case, Mass Suggestion wins hands down. IMX that's an even odds toss up, but on the other hand my sample size is fairly small for Mass Suggestion in play.

Yes there are. Eyebite is a more flexible (and thus more powerful) combat control spell than most of them. The cost of that is having to use your action to make each new attack.

Gonna have to disagree. For Warlocks, unless your DM allows effective combat Mass Suggestion, it's a fantastic choice for Mystic Arcanum.

being able to make regular attacks also depends on your DM allowing it to be used effectively. i mean, every single enemy you meet *could* have total immunity to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage of all kinds. the DM can always screw you over, but if you have to assume the DM is going to screw you over, you should probably spend less time worrying about which spell to pick and more time worrying about where you can find a different DM. spells that don't work normally in combat say they don't. contextually, "reasonable" simply means that they're not going to agree to stab themselves in the face or otherwise cause harm to themselves. there is nothing "reasonable" about a knight giving a warhorse to a peasant (it isn't a good idea for anyone involved. giving an animal that is trained to kill people to a random person is not a good idea, and a warhorse is not trained to pull a plow or anything like that... but again, it *is* trained to kill people. might not be a wise idea to try and force a fully grown, trained warhorse to do something it doesn't like). it's about as "reasonable" as a modern soldier deciding that sure, the hum-vee they're driving has a .50 cal machine gun mounted on it, and a box of hand grenades in the back, but that isn't a reason to not just give it to some random poor person they encounter. and yet, that's the example of a suggestion. meanwhile, the "unreasonable" examples all involve directly harming themselves... so yeah, your DM could screw you over. but your DM could be (and hopefully is) a reasonable human being who does not have a life goal of powertripping at other peoples' expense. if you cannot safely assume the latter, then your first step is to change things until you can safely assume the latter.

and eyebite is not particularly more flexible. it inflicts 3 status conditions, but they all target the same saving throw, and mass suggestion can help you against all kinds of intelligent enemies directly, and can then help you indirectly (by using those intelligent enemies against other intelligent enemies).

[Degwerks]

I think i'll go with Mass Suggestion, it'll free up concentration for other spells & I have possible options of using it out of combat if need be. I had been looking at combat only, instead of the big picture.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, Mass Suggestion is far more flexible overall if you're looking at the big picture. It's a really good spell.


being able to make regular attacks also depends on your DM allowing it to be used effectively. i mean, every single enemy you meet *could* have total immunity to piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing damage of all kinds. the DM can always screw you over, but if you have to assume the DM is going to screw you over, you should probably spend less time worrying about which spell to pick and more time worrying about where you can find a different DM.
That's not remotely the same. It's not a DM screwing you over. One is a hard way the rule works, and a DM explicitly countering your character capabilities. The other somehwat ambiguous wording that can be interpreted multiple ways.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, Mass Suggestion is far more flexible overall if you're looking at the big picture. It's a really good spell.


That's not remotely the same. It's not a DM screwing you over. One is a hard way the rule works, and a DM explicitly countering your character capabilities. The other somehwat ambiguous wording that can be interpreted multiple ways.

not really. in both cases you have the DM deciding that your ability isn't going to work just because. in the case of attacks, the DM has to add immunities. in the case of the spell, the DM has to add a line of text that says the spell doesn't work in combat because reasons. there is no existing line of text that says mass suggestion can't work in combat.

it isn't the same in magnitude, certainly (generally speaking, characters that use weapons a lot have far fewer options for being effective, so it is much more painful for them if the thing they really excel at gets taken away), but in both cases you have the DM changing things so that an ability that should work, doesn't.

[Degwerks]

While I have someone's attention. What are some honest wages that npc mercenaries & spellcasters would charge for a permanent salary to keep them on a retainer as a hireling/henchman?

[Tanarii]

PHB lists skilled hirelings (and explicitly calls that out as mercs) at a minimum of 2gp per day.

Spells are usually per cast, typically 10-50 go for a level one or two spell. Costs aren't given for higher level spells.

If you want a PC class henchman/follower, talk to your DM. There aren't specifics for that, although the DMG does provide a loyalty system. Edit: it also says they should get a full share of xp, so they'll level really fast if they adventure with you.

[Belac93]

I grabbed normal suggestion for my warlock in out of the abyss, and I love it. We were getting slaughtered by bandits, having taken down 5 of them, but still having an almost full hp captain and normal bandit alive, and I told the captain that he couldn't win the fight, and should just kneel to me, and we would let him live.

And then we ended up having a huge discussion, with I wanting to keep him alive to honour my word (LN), and the NG and CG members of the party wanting to kill him because he might follow us. I ended up leaving my imp behind for the 8 hours it took the suggestion to wear off.

But I've learned to be sparing with it, because otherwise the DM starts setting you against constructs and other un-charmable creatures.

[tieren]

I prefer mass suggestion too, ithat just seems to have more utility in and out of combat.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Yeah, Mass Suggestion is far more flexible overall if you're looking at the big picture. It's a really good spell.That's not remotely the same. It's not a DM screwing you over. One is a hard way the rule works, and a DM explicitly countering your character capabilities. The other somehwat ambiguous wording that can be interpreted multiple ways.

It's not that ambiguous, though. There is absolutely nothing in the spell that says it doesn't work in combat. Claiming you can't give any suggestions at all in those circumstances is definitely against RAW.

Now, if the DM wants to say that some suggestions are unreasonable in combat that would be reasonable outside of it, that's different, as is working to define exactly what constitutes a 'reasonable' suggestion.

[Tanarii]

It's not that ambiguous, though. There is absolutely nothing in the spell that says it doesn't work in combat. Claiming you can't give any suggestions at all in those circumstances is definitely against RAW.

Now, if the DM wants to say that some suggestions are unreasonable in combat that would be reasonable outside of it, that's different, as is working to define exactly what constitutes a 'reasonable' suggestion.Yes that's what I meant. You can always give any suggestion you want. The problem is how reasonable DMs will think suggestions such as "bow down and surrender" or "abandon your boss" or "run away" will be against a hostile group in active combat against you. Especially if they think they're winning.

Some DMs are really strict about "reasonable" against hostile creatures. Let alone ones actively engaging in combat.

What is ambiguous is what constitutes "reasonable"

[Degwerks]

I'd love to hear from you guys & gals, on what you think would be reasonable suggestions. Both in and out of combat. Or right before the targets have acted or taken damage.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'd love to hear from you guys & gals, on what you think would be reasonable suggestions. Both in and out of combat. Or right before the targets have acted or taken damage.

"Why are you still trying to fight with that awful wound? You need to run and find a cleric!"
(When the tank isn't very good at his job) "The guy in full plate is the real threat here. You should be trying to kill him first."
(When you've been pretending to be someone's ally but now want rid of them) "I suggest you jump down first and check it out. Don't worry; I know Feather Fall."
"You could really hurt yourself with that possessed glaive. Why don't you put it down and fight with a nice quarterstaff instead?"
(When you've set up floor-level traps) "I suggest you keep your eyes on the rooftops; I've heard there are lots of snipers around."
"Pull that lever, please."
"I recommend you overlook these obviously fake documents. We're on a secret quest to save the city from demons!"

[Degwerks]

Nice ones. The finding a cleric one is pretty good.

Convincing someone to go find a lake and take a bath would work well.

[Tanarii]

(When the tank isn't very good at his job) "The guy in full plate is the real threat here. You should be trying to kill him first."
Oh, I really like that one.

[Degwerks]

I wonder if you could Suggest to let you cast Fly on them, so they could have race to the clouds. Obviously when they get high enough you stop concentrating.

[tieren]

"Its getting hot in here, so take off all your clothes..." bonus points if the bard can lay down a base line while you do it.

[JoeJ]

I would note that a lot of these suggestions, while amusing, would not sound reasonable to somebody who's already in combat with you.

[tieren]

I would note that a lot of these suggestions, while amusing, would not sound reasonable to somebody who's already in combat with you.

but things that might could include things like :
"We surrender, take us to your leader" to turn a TPK into a hostage situation
or while another party member makes an illusion of a basilisk - "run there is a basilisk", your party should also run to reinforce it.