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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class The yet unnamed Class Codenamed Charis...something (monger, Mancer, mator?).



GrayDeath
2016-04-02, 01:10 PM
Let me first state the aim of the Class: This is meant to be a character who truly beats others with Charisma. It is not a dedicated Supporter, Striker, or Leader (for the MMO Crowd^^), but should be able to fill all these rolls. His SLA`s are meant to provide mostly EITHER Power OR Versatility (see Rule of Halves), his native Abilities meant to rock, but be manageable if done right.
I am aiming for very high T3 or low T2 Power Level.

Everything you can find that contradicts the wanted style or that aim, I would be very pleased to ,read. in Detail. ;)

Now lets get to it, shall we?

„The Charismancer/Charismator/Charismonger/Charisma Clubber“



Sometimes, Martial prowess, arcane Might, or Faith are not the source of a powerful being.
Neither Psionics nor meldshaping allowing them to accomplish things noone else can.
No, sometimes it is only the incredible force of their Personality, their Will (and arguably often their hellishly good looks^^).
They are not leaders, although many follow them. Neither are they poets or singers, although theme of many a song or poem.
Heroes and Villains of this ilk are called many names in many lands (and planes), but for this little scientifically minded description we shall call them .... Charismancers.


Basics:

Hitdie: D10 (Charismancers are tough, even if they do not seem that way)
BAB: medium (Competent but not battle-focussed Charsimancers know how to fight)
Saves:high Fort and WIll, Low Dex. (Their incredible will and Drive makes them resilient to many ills, but they do not have the reflexes of other more nimble classes)
Weapon Profficiencies: Charismancers of Level 1 and 2 are proficient with 5 Simple Weapons of their choice. As soon as they reach level 3 they gain proficiency with their Styles Weapons as well as gaining the Styles Weapon Ability.
Secondary Styles only convey Weapon profociencies, not Weapon Special Abilities!
If a Charismancer uses a Weapon not part of their Style(s), they always suffer -2 to attack Rolls and AC.
Armor Proficiencies: All Light Armors, All Shields except Tower Shields. (Charismancers may not gain heavy Armor Proficiency, though medium can be aquired, Exception see indomitable Charismancer).
Aligments: Any but True neutral. Charismancers are driven by Emotion, Will and Style.
Generally more extreme Alignments dominate (most often Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil, followed closely by Neutral Good, Chaotic Evil and Chaotic neutral).


CThe Charismancer


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+0

+2

+0

+2
Skill Focus (any 2 Social Skills)


2nd

+1

+3

+0

+3
Choose one: Charismatic Strength or Charismatic Endurance


3rd

+2

+3

+1

+3
Choose Primary Style


4th

+3

+4

+1

+4
Charismatic Protection, Choose one SLA of L1 or 2


5th

+3

+4

+1

+4
GLaring Contempt


6th

+4

+5

+2

+5
My Perfection, your Doom, Choose a SLA of Level 1 or 2


7th

+5

+5

+2

+5
Personality Triumphant, Leadership*


8th

+6/+1

+6

+2

+6
Uplifting Presence, Choose a SLA of up to L3


9th

+6/+1

+6

+3

+6
Crushing Glare


10th

+7/+2

+7

+3

+7
Choose Secondary Style, Choose SLA up to L4


11th

+8/+3

+7

+3

+7
Aura of the Unchallenged, choose greater Glaring Contempt or Greater Crushing GLare


12th

+9/+4

+8

+4

+8
Choose one SLA up to L5


13th

+9/+4

+8

+4

+8
Nature Commanding Persona Assumption


14th

+10/+5

+9

+4

+9
Choose one SLA up to L6;


15th

+11/+6/+1

+9

+5

+9
World-Moving-Presence Assumption


16th

+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10
One SLA up to L7, Improved Leadership*


17th

+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10
Outsider-Compelling Soul


18th

+13/+8/+3

+11

+6

+11
Choose SLA up to L8


19th

+14/+9/+4

11

+6

+11
Charismatic Territory


20th

+15/+10/+5

+12

+6

+12
Choose Glare of Death OR Word of Life





SLA*s: These rules apply to any and all classgiven SLA`s the Charismancer gains.

Every Time a Charismancer can Choose a SLA, he notes the Level he chooses it at.
until he is 3 levels higher than the Level he chose it, he may use it once per Day, until he is 6 Levels higher 3 times/day, from that moment onward 1+Charisma-Mod/Day.

As soon as he would be able to choose 4th-Level-SLA`s he may instead Choose a first or second Level SLA with a total +2 of metamagic Feats. The number it is useable/day does not change.
The same applies as soon as he can choose L 6 (with Level 4 SLA`s).

All SLA`s have to come out of the following Core Spellcaster Class Lists: Wizard/Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid. The List is chosen once and for all with the exception of the School of magic listed next to the Type. Spells of these Schools are free to be chosen from the other lists as well.



Types/Styles of Charismancers:
Anyone charismatic enough can stumble upon the path to power that lies within the Charismancers way. But once stumbled, one has to choose HOW to pursue that way.
At achieving Third Level a Charismancer chooses his Style/Type. This gives him all the Special Abilities listed under that type at the Level listed next to them.
Once he reaches Level 10 he chooses a second (minor) type and gains 2 of the 3 Abilities of that type/style as well.
Opposing Styles cannot be combined.



Styles:



Each Style grants Acces to 2 Special Feats (Primary Style offers both, building on one another, Secondary only the lesser variant).
Every time you could take a feat after aquiring the Style (ergo earliest Level 4) you can choose one of these feats instead.

Benign: The Charismancer is a Force of helpfulness, soothing in his allencompassing auro of Benevolence.
Abilities: Master Diplomancer May reroll Diplomancy Rolls (failed or not) once for each four Levels in this Class/day.
Diplomatic(5) Can use Diplomancy on a whole Group of up to 2*ChaMod People. May spend one SLA use to: If using Diplomacy on one target has a Chance of attaining his/her eternal Admiration (requires passed Diplomacy Roll on 30 AND a followup D20 Roll+Cha-Difference between Charismancer and Target, a Roll of 15 or more means success). This only ever works on „mortal beings“ below the Charismancers level (DM`s choice)
Good Fortune Adds CharismaMod to AC.
Weapons of the Style: Unarmed Strike, Sap, Quarterstaff, Mancatcher, Bolos, Lasso, Net.
When using a Weapon that deals lethal Damage to deal nonlethal Damage, they suffer no penalty. When using a Weapon that deals nonlethal Damage or making an attack that does not deal damage at all, they increase their Attack Roll by 1 for every 5 Levels of this Class.

Opposite. Terrible

Special Feats:

Lesser: Healing Hands: May use his touch to heal ChaMod times/day. Each Use heals ChaMod*D6 Damage
Greater: Touch of Greatness: Once per day may touch an Ally and grant him +ChaMod to all Rolls for 5 Minutes (excludes Rolls of Effects the Character causes, like Spells Damage Rolls, but includes everything else)

Magic School: Divination


Indomitable: The Charismancers Will and strength of belief in his own superiority are so trong that he may ignore or resist almost anything.
Abilities: Unflinching Adds ChaMod to DR. (cannot be above Level in Charismancer)
hardened Body Adds ChaMod to all Energy Resistances (cannot be above Level +2)
Indomitable (5) Is immune to Fear of all Forms and Sources.
Weapons of the Style: : Unarmed Strike, Shields, Warmace, Heavy Mace, Naginata (or similar culturally fitting Weapon), Heavy Flail, Heavy Crossbow.
When being targetted by a Grapple or Trip attempt, Indomitable Charismancers add their Charisma-Bonus to any rolls to oppose that attempt (balance, Breaking free, etc). The Bonus cannot be higher than their Level in Charismancer/4.

Opposite: Radiant

Special Feats:
Lesser: Toughened Image: Gains medium Armor Profficiency and Heavy Armor Profficiency.
Greater: Gains ChaMod/2 Fast Healing

Magic School: Abjuration


Radiant: Many think of this style when thinking of the typical Charismancer. So strong, yes radiant, is his look, his personality, his Style, that all must stop and admire him … sometimes even unthinking forces seem stunned.
Abilities: Radiant Skin: Adds ChaMod to all Saves.
True Radiance: All Enemies within 30ft that can see him subract his ChaMod from their Initiative rolls.
Radiant Supremacy: Enemies which wish to attack him must pass a Will save vs.Charisma+(Level/5) or lose the difference to all Attack rolls. If they miss by more than 10 they cannot physically attack him at all during that battle.
Weapons of the Style: Unarmed Strike, Longsword, Scimitar, Rapier, Trident, Falchion, Longbow.
While wielding one of their Style Weapons, radiant Charismancers add the Enhancement Bonus of their weapon to their AC (counts as Deflection Bonus) if their opponents can see it AND it looks expensive/shiny/etc enough.

Opposite Type: Indomitable.

Special Feats:
Lesser: Radiant Skin: May sacrifice one Use of any of his SLA`s to boost all his saves by 2 for one Minute. Stacks with itself.
Greater: Foestopping Glare: May glare at his enemies (using up both his move and Standard Action) within a 120 degree arc (120ft long). All that can see him must pass a will save vs. 5+ChaMod+Level or suffer the following effects: Movent/2, Spell Failure Chance 35%, -5 to attack Rolls.
This effect is continuous while he does nothing but glare, but ends after 2 turns otherwise.
Every Enemy can only be affected once this way during any given battle.

Magic School: Illusion


Terrible: Terrible indeed is the Wrathful glare of this Charismancer. Pure malice and destruction are in his gaze, Terror in his every move.
Abilities: Terrible prowess: Adds ChaMod to Attack Rolls
Intimidating: May reroll 1/4th Level Intimidate Rolls/Day.
Intimidating Malice: (8) If his Intimidate Roll succeeds by more than 10, and the victom does not immedeately fall to its knees and abase itself fopr at least 5 rounds, the victim is dealt ChaMod D3 Dice of nonlethal Damage and falls unconscious for 4 turns. This Effect can only be used once upon any given target per day.
Weapons of the Style: Terrible: Unarmed Strike, Bastard Sword, Greatsword, Scythe, Greataxe, Double Bladed Sword, Throwing Spear.
When wielding one of its Style Weapons, a Terrible Charismancer adds +1 to the Damage dealt for every 4 Levels of his level in Charismancer (round up).

Opposite: Benign.

Special Feats:
Lesser: Destructive hand: While wielding one of his Style Weapons always treats it as keen and adds +1d6 Damage.
Greater: Terrorstrike: 3/Day. All Rolled Values (except for the to hit roll) of all attacks follwoing the activation (maximum one full turn) are counted as full (includes but is not limited to damage dice, Sneak Attack Dice, Crit Confirmation Rolls).

Magic School: Necromancy









Ability/Specials Descriptions:


Aura of the Unchallenged: Enemies with lower Charisma Scores suffer -3 to Attack Rolls and Initiative while within LoS and ChaMod*5 ft.
Charismancers of Level 15 or higher may spend 2 uses of any of their Spellike bilities to increase the Malus by that SLA`s Level for 5 turns.


Charismatic Endurance: Uses Charisma to determine Bonus HP (Instead of Constitution)

Charismatic Protection: Uses Charisma to determine Save Bonuses.

[/B] Charismatic Strength: Uses Charisma to determine Bonus Damage (instead of Strength)

Charismatic Territory: Within ChaMod+5 ft around the Charismancer he cannot be: Flanked, Sneak Attacked, Critted, or grappled.
Attacks made outside that range are unaffected. If in Conflict, roll any one die. Evens mean he cannot, odds mean he can be Grappled, Critted, Sneak attacked, etc.

Crushing Glare: ChaMod/Day. Deals ChaMod*D6 untyped Damage to one living, intelligent Target within LoS and 30+5*ChaMod ft. Will Save (vs. 10+Chamod+Level) halves.
Chrishing Glare, Greater:Sacrifice a Use of any SLA of Level 3 or higher: The number of Damage Dealt is calculated as above, but for every 10 points dealt, the Target suffers 2 points of Strength Damage.


Glaring Contempt: ChaMod/Day: Target living, intelligent Creature must pass a Will Save vs. 5+ChaMod+Level or suffer -3 to all Rolls for Charismancer Level TurnsTurns.
Glaring Contempt, Greater: Sacrifice one Use of any SLA of Level 3 or higher: If the Creature passes the Save, the above applies, if not, it is incapable of any actions except 5ft steps for 5 turns.

My Perfection, your Doom: Adds ½ ChaMod to Crit Confirmation Rolls on Targets that can see him.

Nature Commanding Persona Assumption: All natural Creatures (DM) receive – ChaMod to any Attempts to use the following skills against him: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive.

Outsider-Compelling-Soul: So bright/dark radiates his soul, that with but a whim he can summon an outsider of his own alignment. This basically works as planar binding, and the called outsider starts of with positive outlook.
Even though his SOuls light/dark mis nigh infinite, he can only do this twice per day without ... boring his audience.

Personality Triumphant: Can be used Charismancer Level/5 times per day. Must be announced prior to rolling. Adds Charisma/2 to one save for one turn (no matter how often it is rolled this turn).
THe Chraismancer may spend 2 SLA`s Uses to make this last for 5 turns (durations stack!)


Uplifting Presence: All Allies within ChaMod+5 yards gain + ½ ChaMod to all Saves while he is alive, conscious and they can see him. Continues for 1d3 turns after that is no longer the case.

World-moving-Persona-Assumption: The Charismancer can now intimidate natural Phenomena (Floods, Earthslides, Forest Fires.....) to stop or get out of his way. (Rolls against Magnitude Level+10+Difficulty (1-10, DM decides). Requires +1 not to harm him, +6 to let him through, +11 to get out of the way or +20 to stop).



Capstone: Only one can be chosen. Terrible Charismancers have to Choose Glare of Death, Benign Charismancers Word of Life. Radiant and Indomiteables are free to choose.

Glare of Death: ChaMod/Day: Target must pass a Will Save vs 5+ChaMod+ranks in Intimidate or Die.


Word of Life: Can use True Ressurection (without the Material Cost) on a dead Ally (must have known him/her long and well) without remains (1/day).



*: if Leadership is frowned upon at your table (or even outright forbidden) you may at these levels instead choose a Figher or Rogue Bonus Feat for which you qualify.



New Feats:

Magical Charisma Enhancement: Charismancers with this feat may spend one use of any SLA to increase their Charisma by 4 points for 5 turns. Multiple uses may be expended at the same time, resulting time stacks. Charisma cannot be increased by more than half this way (claculated before adding any other bonuses!).

Intrusion-rejecting-Presence: May only be chosen at Levels 12 or higher. Requires unbossted Charisma of 20 or higher.
Charismancers with this feat are immune against any Enchantment effects and receive their Charisma Bonus agains Mind affecting effects.

GrayDeath
2016-04-03, 01:10 PM
Made some minor adjustments.

Also I would really love some feedback (especially from Yormungand and other "Hombrewpros") :)

GrayDeath
2016-04-07, 12:54 PM
No Feedback?

:confused::frown:

JeenLeen
2016-04-07, 01:41 PM
In general, your language for each level does not fit the general homebrew conventions, and that probably leads to fewer responses. That said, here are a few thoughts:

Three good saves sounds too powerful. I could see Will and Con, if you want two saves. Durable and strong-willed seems to fit this class; dexterous, not necessarily. This is especially true since they get +Cha mod to saves.

I recommend dropping the Leadership and Improved Leadership feats. Give a bonus feat instead. Leadership is frowned upon in most circles, so it as a class feature seems unwise even if it fits the flavor. If allowed at a table, they can take it as a bonus feat. Alternatively, make a list of bonus feats and put those on it.

Weapon proficiency is done oddly. Maybe simple and martial weapons, and let them take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 as a bonus feat instead of one of the Skill Focus (that is, choose two feats out of Skill Focus (social things) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency). That enables similar style without the unusual convention. If a weapon doesn't fit their style, they just don't use it. You could give Weapon Focus as a bonus feat to encourage staying with a given style.
If you do the list of feats recommended above, put all these on that list. Maybe any fighter feat as an option, too.

It seems this class should be proficient with medium armor. Or at least some styles grant it as a bonus proficiency.

Level 19 - don't add coin flipping mechanics. Make it a d20 dice roll (1-10 = one thing, 11-20 another).

GrayDeath
2016-04-07, 02:10 PM
In general, your language for each level does not fit the general homebrew conventions, and that probably leads to fewer responses. That said, here are a few thoughts:


And these are?




Three good saves sounds too powerful. I could see Will and Con, if you want two saves. Durable and strong-willed seems to fit this class; dexterous, not necessarily. This is especially true since they get +Cha mod to saves.


While I do not see it as too powerful, you are entirely correct that a high Dex Save does not fit the intended feel. Willb e amended.



I recommend dropping the Leadership and Improved Leadership feats. Give a bonus feat instead. Leadership is frowned upon in most circles, so it as a class feature seems unwise even if it fits the flavor. If allowed at a table, they can take it as a bonus feat. Alternatively, make a list of bonus feats and put those on it.


I know, its usually the exploiters tables that frown upon it.
I`ll leave them in but exand it with a "if leadership is prohibites/restricted at your table you may choose...." Feat List below.





Weapon proficiency is done oddly.

Intentionally so. ;)




Maybe simple and martial weapons, and let them take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 as a bonus feat instead of one of the Skill Focus (that is, choose two feats out of Skill Focus (social things) and Exotic Weapon Proficiency). That enables similar style without the unusual convention. If a weapon doesn't fit their style, they just don't use it. You could give Weapon Focus as a bonus feat to encourage staying with a given style.


Seems more hassle for the same effect.
I mean I see where you`re coming from, but is a simple (choose 7 Weapons that fit your stiyle (with your GM)§" so difficult?





It seems this class should be proficient with medium armor. Or at least some styles grant it as a bonus proficiency.


Hmmm, I intended them all to be less of a "general Martial Class", but I could see the MEdiumA rmor Prof and removal of the SLA Restriction as a point for the Indomitable Style. Maybe.
I`ll think about it.



Level 19 - don't add coin flipping mechanics. Make it a d20 dice roll (1-10 = one thing, 11-20 another).

TomAto - TomatO.

But true, coins are getting rarer and rarer these days, I`ll make it a Dice roll.


Thank you for your feedback.
But a general Question: aside from the abovementioned: Does it achieve its Goal?
Fitting Powerlevel, no obvious problems (aside from the problems anyone with Spells causes)?

Gildedragon
2016-04-07, 02:56 PM
So, a couple thoughts
First: I'd recommend you put the class on a table; make it look tidy and easily examined. The layout is a quick turnoff. Use the formatting tools to make it look like a class.

Second: It isn't clear what happens when, there are typos scattered throughout, and while understandable, they make the very minimal formatting confusing and strange.

Third: Fluff & Mechanical issues:

The feats, what are their prerequisites?
What does this even mean
Charismatic Territory: Within ChaMod+5 ft around the Charismancer he cannot be: Flanked, Sneak Attacked, Critted, or grappled who is "he", the charismancer? if so... how is one outside of oneself?
When are the abilities of styles gained? (i found it: it should be on a table, it is confusing)
what styles are opposed?
why do some feats and abilities have the same name?
the weapon proficiency thing is flat out confusing; scrap it or give each style a set of associated weapons.
The rules for the SLAs are odd... i'd look at the factotum for a good pseudo-spellcasting system.


Why is LE likelier to be this than LG or CE?

GrayDeath
2016-04-08, 01:42 PM
@Typos/Formatting: true.
I will correct them now and update to a clearer formatting asap.
Should help with clarity too.

I know how the factotum does it and wanted to avoid copying it. Could you explain what about the SLA s you find confusing?

@ opposites: radiant/indomitable and benign/terrible. While I did not write it in every types writeup I did write it....

@Le: because the most likely people to thrive through Charisma are usually extreme Individualist with a cause (LG) or Wannabe Tyrants/Powermongers (Le).
Aside from Ln and NE none of the allowed alignments is truly rare though.

As for the styles/weapons: that was my first variant but I thought it more fitting regarding the mood/Individualism to let players choose.


Regarding Charismatic territory:
It means that noone within that area can sneak attack, Crit or grapple the charismancer. I thought it pretty clear, but that's what feedback is for.
I'll write a clearer version soon.

Thanks for the feedback!

GrayDeath
2016-04-14, 09:35 AM
Reformatted and slightly modified.

Any useful feedback is very much appreciated!

GrayDeath
2016-04-15, 02:52 PM
Bump.

Or Charisma-up? ^^

Gildedragon
2016-04-15, 04:34 PM
So the weapons system is pretty borked; i know you want it to reflect the uniqueness of each individual that takes this class, but it generates more work for the DM and the Player.
My suggestion:
Proficiency with all simple weapons and three martial weapons of their choosing
and at level 1 the ability Signature weapon (Ex): At first level a [classname] selects a weapon that represents their particular fighting style, and gains proficiency with it. If they already had proficiency with it, then they gain the Weapon Focus feat for that weapon as a bonus feat.

OR

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A [classname] is proficient with all the weapons of their signature style; light armor, and shields (except tower shield)

Benign Style: unarmed strikes, goad, grasping pole, mancatcher, sap, satsumata, truncheon, whip, bolos, boomerang, laso, and net; when using a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal non-lethal damage they take no penalty for doing so.
Indomitable Style: unarmed strikes, (probably a number of two handed or double weapons here, probably shields too); when escaping from a pin or a grapple they add their charisma to the strength check...
etc etc..

SLAS: the rules are too much. KIS

At Level 1:
Pick 3 cantrips; they are each usable as SLAs 3/day plus 1/day per every 4 [class] levels

level 4 on: pick 1 of the level you have or 2 of lower levels; you can use them a total of 1/day + 1/day every 3 levels above the level you got them
you cannot pick the same spell twice.
that can probably be reworded nicer but the idea is that

GrayDeath
2016-04-16, 12:19 PM
OK, gonna redo these 2, but I will not simplify the SLa`s TOO much, its supposed tob e more individual than the Factotum.

The Weapons....I still dont see where its so complicated, but your Suggestions works well and are interesting while is still simpler, so yeah, thx. ;)

Still looking for positive/negative/any feedback about the class as such, if you like/dislike it, if it achieves its goal, etc.

GrayDeath
2016-04-21, 08:21 AM
SLA`s simplified, Weapon Profs. modified to be more powerful but also more "style-restricted".

GrayDeath
2016-06-01, 01:18 PM
Bumped for more Feedback.

GrayDeath
2017-02-26, 04:32 PM
Bumped since I am going to see it played soonish, and the player is a little weird regarding powerful classes (either he manages to play them horribly or instinctively finds loopholes), which is why I would love some more feedback.

Thanks in advance

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-26, 05:34 PM
I have to agree that the formatting of this class makes it extremely difficult to read and review. I will try to do a level-by-level analysis, but it is entirely possible that I accidentally skip a class feature accidentally.

See another homebrew class (ex. Verdure (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510929-The-Verdure-Base-Class-PEACH)) for how to more easily organize it.
Pointers for cleaning it up:
Mention the level at which the class feature is gained in each class feature; this helps us to estimate the relative power of the feature without having to switch back and forth between the table and the feature (much less scrolling!). Organize them by the level you get them at- this is especially a problem with SLAs and the "subclass", which are listed first despite being acquired at levels 4 and 5 respectively.
Bold class feature names; this makes them pop out, making them easier to find quickly.
Also, there are typos everywhere- run over it with spellcheck.
Descriptions of class features should be full sentences, damnit!

Okay. By level, spoilering the review:



I googled "rule of halves" but I didn't find anything relevant. In any case, unless there's a extremely multiuse spell (like that skill-boosting cleric one), or if they use it on limited wish, SLAs won't add much versatility. More likely to be used for staple buffs like enlarge person, animal's stat, haste, fly, etc.

Chassis:
Hit die: d10.
BAB: medium.
Hit die implies a front-line combatant, but armor and weapon proficiencies don't. Odd.
Skills: Undefined... Surprising, given that Cha is important for the party Face.

Simple Weapon Proficiencies, plus some specific proficiencies later- do you expect the player to prepare by taking unusable weapons early, or scramble to get the right weapons later? Martial Weapon Proficiency is much simpler, especially since players may not start with the intent to use a weapon. Oh, and if you use a weapon outside your style, you take penalties, even if you don't have a style yet.
Armor proficiency: Light only... plus you can never, ever, get heavy armor proficiency, even if you multiclass into Fighter later?? Some reference to SLAs having their effectiveness reduced.

L1: You get two crappy feats. "Social skills" is undefined both in the game and in the text. Does Sense Motive count, even though it isn't Cha based? This is a ****ty level overall. I'd rather be a fighter; they get almost as many feats, and are otherwise better in every way.

L2: You get Charisma-to-hit-points now, rather than later, and +Cha to bonus damage, whatever that is. Irritatingly, this means you either had a terrible level 1 experience due to dumping Con in preparation, leaving you with poor hit points, or you put points in a stat which would be irrelevant in one level. It's at a ****ty level where it's just out of reach to be something you can start with and build for with your stat allocation, and too low to be something which you know you have to wait for. Depending on how you read it, you either replace Strength with Cha for bonus damage with attacks (but not attack rolls), or add your Cha to damage.

3rd: Now you get weapon proficiencies. You have a bunch of hit points, but no armor. You get three (three!) special abilities at this level.
Review:
Benign:
-Master Diplomancer: Useful, but needs more words to explain when you use it (after you roll, or after the DM tells you whether or not you failed?). Technically, you can't actually use it at this level.
-Diplomatic (misspelled): I have no idea what this does. I understand the "use on group" function (although it assumes you can't do that normally. Most DMs would let you, I think.), but the 'eternal admiration' part (in addition to being potentially overpowered) is unreadable.
-Good Fortune: It's important, but nothing else in this feature is good for fighting.
-Weapons: Several of these are simple weapons, so you're already proficient.
Attack roll buff is handy, but bad at low levels.

Feat options: Powerful healing at low levels, but falls off quickly. Cha mod as a multiplier for effects is something you almost never see.
Greater version: Strong buff. "effects the character(poor capitalization) would cause" is ill-defined; list the rolls affected.

Indomitable:
-Unflinching is nice DR.
-Indomitable is situational, especially since you already have good Will and will get +Cha to saves next level.
-Hardened Body is low energy resist, since energy attacks are often taken in bursts of damage.
-Weapon Prof are good. Tower Shield proficiency is nice for AC.

Feats:
-hahahahahaha this is just Armor Proficiency(Medium). Spell-like abilities already don't suffer the penalty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)!
-Fast healing is powerful to have. Defensively, you're just a big sack of hit points. Offensively, you have very little going for you.

Radiant:
- +Cha to saves? This makes something like 3x Cha to saving throws total. Good, but silly.
-Initiative Penalty is something unusual. Nice feature.
-Radiant Supremacy is stupid good, depending on how it works. It's sorta unclear.
Weapons: Options are good, includes the only good ranged attack option. Bonus to AC is strong, but undefined behavior.
Feats:
Radiant Skin: MORE saving throws? I guess...
-Foestopping thingy: Feelbads for arcane casters, feelbads for melee combatants. Only works once ever on a given person. Save DC overscales, drop it to 10 +1/2 level + Cha.

Terrible:
Prowess: Good bonus to attack rolls.
Intimidating: Sure.
Intimidating Malice: Holy geez this is incredibly overpowered. You can pump up Intimidate, and lock down targets for 5 rounds.
Weapons: The best melee options, decent damage buff.

Feats: Sure, more crits, more damage.
Greater version: Unreadable.


Level 4:
You get a spell-like ability once per day. For... reasons?
Also, Constitution is now totally irrelevant, since you also replace it for Fort saves.

L5:
Glaring Contempt. It has a variable duration for some reason? And also a DC which scales linearly with level, for...reasons. Also, stat mod/day uses is very rare- usually 3+ stat or a specific number. Odd on a Benign Charismatic. Possible staple ability, if it weren't so wonky.

L6:
You add a bonus to crit confirmation rolls for reasons. Only useful for Terrible Charismatics.
Another SLA, I guess. Also 1/day...

L7: Bonus feat. Martial and Social feats are undefined. Now, add 2x Cha to saves. Never fail a saving throw again. One of your SLAs is now 3/day, making it usable more often.

8th: 3rd level SLA, once per day.
Uplifting Presence works off yards, for ... reasons. Adds yet more saving throws, but to teammates. Will other abilities help out teammates? I doubt it.
More attacks, I guess.

9th: Deals damage based on your Charisma mod. Another damaging ability. Do you attack or use this? Unclear. Overscaled DC. Oddly, both this and Glaring Contempt have GL capitalized in the table.

This is all I have the endurance for right now. I'll try to take a shot at continuing later, but I do have some comments.


Verdict:
The most unbalanced thing about this is how SAD it is, and how many class features are powered by it (and also a nasty tendency to overscale save DCs). Players can pump their Charisma to ungodly heights, becoming incredibly good, but there's little other than that. Most abilities are mechanically useful, I guess, but have little cohesion. The formatting for everything looks like a compressed summary which I would note down on a character sheet, rather than a class description. Class features are powerful, but the class has very little identity overall- charisma is something that you are, rather than something which you do, so there isn't much in the way of unique and appropriate mechanics to create.

Most class features I see are either passive abilities which you could write down and forget about except when you level up, or alpha-strike, once-per-day abilities. What are your staple options in combat, and how do you support them? SLAs? Attacking? How do you actively support them round-per-round, making interesting choices? A Barbarian supports attacking through the Rage mechanic. A Fighter does so through Power Attack and the use of feats. A Wizard or Sorcerer makes decisions about what spell to use, and where they use it/who on. This class is missing its own "staple option" to fall back on which is built at low levels, or a central mechanic or ability which later levels build off of. Glares are a later-game option, but are pretty boring "hurt that guy" powers with no support. Most unique class features either add Charisma to something, or do their own, unrelated thing (they pretty much feel like Charisma-based spells).

The class overall feels like it was built out of Charisma-related mechanics and abilities rather than an idea of who the class is and what they do round-to-round. Compare with the Verdure, which I linked earlier- it's built off a strong class theme of plant control, with mechanical themes of crowd control through laying down zones of entanglement and turret-like minions. While there are some filler abilities, (mostly spell like abilities), the class is definitely built around making use of two main class features (Plant and Entangle), and using them to their utmost.


Edit: Noticed that a number of later class features had Exalted-like names. You may wish to look at the Mythos projects:
Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457613-Mythos-Homebrew-Discussion-III-Grievous-Imbalance-Is-A-Feature)
Compendium of projects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335295-Mythos-Compendium)
They're definitely powerful, if thats what you're looking for. The Anakitos and Dinyomi have some relationship with this class, so you could consider them as alternates for your player to use.

I also have many bookmarks to dig through for classes with similar fluff, if your player is set on this kind of class.

GrayDeath
2017-03-01, 03:57 PM
Thank you for the effort, I thin I`ll be able to do a big reformatting and streamlining session soonish.

A lot of your criticism is based on that (and/or not being clear on what an ability really does), so I`ll only answer the 2 clear mechanical points you made:

Yes, it is a Class thats named Charismancer, What except its abilities being based around doing stuff with Charisma did you expect as central theme? ^^

Its extreme SADness is intentional. Some of its "wonky" weaknesses are as well, some are a mixture of oversight on my parts or not being clear enough.

Again, thanks for the feedback this far, I would love for you to do the other levels as well, once I cleared everything up.


As for the Exalted Fluff: what can I say, still love the setting to death. Pre 3rd that is. :P

aimlessPolymath
2017-03-01, 05:15 PM
The big problem I think I have with the class is that while it has a fluff theme (Charisma), it doesn't have a strong mechanical theme.

What are the tools that this class uses to address problems? How are those tools supported by the class? Wizards and Sorcerers have a single, very versatile tool: Cast Spell. If it can solve the problem at hand, they can contribute to the situation. Because Cast Spell is so applicable to so many situations, and scales so well, the classes are tier 1-2 (there's more to the tier system to that, but w/e). Fighters have a central tool of Attack, barring some niche builds. The central thing which they do in combat is that, and they get feats to help them out with it (as well as some passive stuff). However, the tool is very specialized, so they can't approach many situations with it, and it doesn't help in some combat situations, either. The rogue has two main tools (Sneak Attack and Use Skills). The first one is their "combat" tool, and it's pretty good at contributing to combat in most situations. There are a bunch of feats and stuff to help it out, too. The second one is their "noncombat" tool, and it also gets some support. Since it's so broad, it's also pretty useful if the rogue has the right skills.

This class has a gadjillion tools, but none of them are well supported by the class. Here are some tools the class has:
-Use Social Skill: This is supported in exactly three places. One of them is at 1st level, when they get skill focus. One of them is in the Styles, where you pick up a few rerolls on a specific skill each day, and improve that skill in a way which only increases how well it solves situations which it could already solve. One of them is at 7th/16th level, where they might get a useful feat. Overall, this tool gets a small amount which helps the class succeed in situations where it might apply, a significant amount of support in situations where you can already overwhelmingly succeed, and almost no support to help it apply broadly or be used in interesting ways (World-moving-persona-assumption is incredibly specific, somewhat DM-dependent, and incredibly variable). Overall, this means that this class best helps people who are already very good at a skill, but leaves behind people who aren't as good at it. For example, the Intimidate "beat-by-10" upgrade from Terrible are only really useful if someone optimizes for it, but isn't particularly good against a level-appropriate foe. It also isn't a particularly interactive tool, since you can't really decide to use it- you have to roll and hope your opponent rolls low.
-Attack. This is supported in three places- one of the styles, one of the SAD abilities and My Perfection, Your Doom. Not well supported- it does little to make the ability generally usable, the class has average BAB, and awful proficiencies. Some other support in feats, but not in a way which particularly expands its use.
-Use Spell-like Ability: You have a specific number of "spells known", and you never change them. What spells do you expect a player to take? No support at all.
-Use Crushing Glare: No support
-Use Glaring Contempt: No support
-Foestopping Glare (varies): No support
There's no good "default" option here, because there's a lack of a basic tool to use to solve problems. I'm plugging the Verdure again, because it had two main tools which it used to solve encounters (Plant and Entangle), a whole host of support for those options, as well as a number of tools it could use to do more than fighting (mostly from class features in the 9-13 level range, admittedly).

I would rate it as at Tier 3 to 4:

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.
Spell-like abilities can possibly bump it up to tier 2, but only in the sense that "a class which learns how to use limited wish 3/day is T2". Let me be clear that this is a good place to be! In cases where it's best tools function (Terrible, Benign "beat-by-10" and similar) it's incredibly good at solving encounters. But outside that, it's not particularly overpowering.



Yes, it is a Class thats named Charismancer, What except its abilities being based around doing stuff with Charisma did you expect as central theme? ^^
I would expect an understanding of how the class "works". Look at other charisma-based classes: Do they bend reality by their sheer power of presence (Sorcerer)? Do they manipulate others into doing their bidding (Machiavellian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?281243-A-Social-Rube-Goldberg-Machine-(3-5-base-class)))? What do they do with their charisma other than "be charismatic"?

I think that deciding on a clear use of their charisma is the first step to deciding on class abilities, rather than tossing together a bunch of charisma related abilities. I'm plugging Machiavellian as well as its precursor class for this, because they both did a good job at deciding on their use of Charisma, building a tool (Craft Social Contagion or Reprogram) which represents that use, and then making the rest of the class heavily support and assist its use. I think that the proliferation of abilities that are just "add Charisma to something" are a sign that the class isn't quite sure how it operates, or what it's central tools are supposed to be.

Here's a hypothetical Charisma power which tells you exactly what it "does":


Inspire Emotion:
By spending a minute interacting with someone or some group of people using a skill, you can inspire some emotion in them. If they fail a will save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your ranks in the relevant skill + your Charisma bonus, your emotion takes hold in their hearts. Choose one of the following effects as you interact; on a failed save, the effects apply for 1 hour per level:
-Adjust their attitude towards a particular request, group, or person by one step, to a maximum of helpful.
-Apply a +2 or -2 penalty to further checks made to convince the affected individuals personally to change their minds about a topic. The save DC against this effect is increased by 3.
-Apply a +2 or a -2 penalty to rolls the affected individuals make related to attempting to carry through one action, due to their increased or decreased resolve.

Clear usage cases: convincing someone to take some action by softening them up with the first mode, helping out with a larger effort to convince someone of a particular cause, and pumping up the militia as they assault their foes.
There's room for support, too- adjusting the time taken to convince people, broadening the skills which it can be used for (convince someone with Knowledge skills and logic!), and adding new modes or improving the existing ones.

GrayDeath
2017-03-02, 12:39 PM
Well written and specific criticism, thank you a lot, I will try to implement your suggestions/remove the main problems.

However there is an intentional part of "does things with Charisma in many ways" in the Class, that will not change.

I ill however try to get more thematically focussed, streamlined abilities in.

As for the Power/Flexibility: seems at least that part worked exactly as I intended. It was never planned as a truly flexible class, so far so good.

GrayDeath
2017-03-03, 01:41 PM
On a sidenote, if you have any specific suggestions how to improve the wholeness of the class (without getting rid of more than a little bit of the abilities I gave it^^) I`m all ears. Starting Sunday I`ll have time to get to it again, so....:)

GrayDeath
2017-03-07, 01:04 PM
OK, without doing a complete rework I added some support, removed obvious problems, cleared up unclear stuff (I hope) and overall streamlined it a bit.

I cannot at the moment see any "Main Ability usage" to build the class around as it was intended to be versatile with Charisma and any Charisma use I can think of would either be too limited and/or require a total rework.

I like the overall feel so far (admittably fluff is still sparse).

What do you think? Better?

aimlessPolymath
2017-03-07, 03:13 PM
It still needs an editing pass. I'm going to repeat my advice about formatting from my first post, because it really needs to be done:

Pointers for cleaning it up:
Mention the level at which the class feature is gained in each class feature; this helps us to estimate the relative power of the feature without having to switch back and forth between the table and the feature (much less scrolling!).
Organize them by the level you get them at- this is especially a problem with SLAs and the "subclass", which are listed first despite being acquired at levels 4 and 5 respectively.
Bold class feature names; this makes them pop out, making them easier to find quickly.
Also, there are typos everywhere- run over it with spellcheck.
Descriptions of class features should be full sentences, damnit!
The first two and the fourth one are the most important because they make it easier to easily review the class without having to jump back and forth between the table and the features.
The third and fifth ones are important because it makes the class much easier to read. You mostly got the first of the two done, but the second one is pretty important. Not having full sentences in particular is a pet peeve of mine- I'm willing to do a full review of the class, but only after I don't have to read class features formatted like

Glaring Contempt: ChaMod/Day: Target living, intelligent Creature must pass a Will Save vs. 5+ChaMod+Level or suffer -3 to all Rolls for Charismancer Level TurnsTurns.
Glaring Contempt, Greater: Sacrifice one Use of any SLA of Level 3 or higher: If the Creature passes the Save, the above applies, if not, it is incapable of any actions except 5ft steps for 5 turns.
It would make it much easier on me if I read it as


Glaring Contempt(Su): Starting at 5th level, the Charismancer's raw contempt destroy's other's resolve, hindering their confidence. A number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier, as a standard action, the Charismancer can force a living, intelligent creature that he can see to pass a Will save (DC 5 + his Charisma modifier + his Charismancer level) or suffer a -3 penalty to all rolls for a number of rounds equal to his Charismancer level. By expending a use of a 3rd-level or higher spell-like ability as he uses this ability, the Charismancer intensifies the effect. On a failed save, the target cannot take any action at all other than a single 5-foot step each turn for the next five rounds. On a successful save, the target takes penalties as above.

It's more words, but it makes it leagues easier to R&R.
Key points:
-The first sentence always tells the reader when they get the ability, and gives them a short description of what it "does". This is in addition to alphabetizing the abilities. It can also include a short bit of fluff, explaining how the ability "works"- you don't need to do this, necessarily, though.
-If the intensified ability is not gained at a separate level and is bundled with the effect, combine them into one class feature. I had to look over the table to realize that G. Glaring Contempt was part of the same class feature.
-Full sentences. I can't stress this enough. It seems small, but having a fully readable class feature is extremely important- it shows that you've put effort into the class, and helps readers understand what it does more easily.
-Bolding the title makes it much easier to find when you're scrolling- also important when you need to repeatedly reference an ability while writing a review.

-------------------------------------------------------------

If you want the class to be versatile with Charisma, I suggest making broad class features which can do a wide variety of rolls. The "Inspire Emotion" ability I posted covers socialization, support rolls, and buffs/debuffs. Another example of a highly versatile ability using Charisma which you could use could be the ability to add your Charisma bonus to any roll, a certain number of times per day.

Furthermore, while you want the class to "do lots of things with charisma", the majority of the class features are purely combat-based.

My personal opinion on this class is that it mixes highly general abilities which could be used for a relatively uncomplicated class, with a couple incredibly specific abilities that seem to force particular "moments" and ideas of what Charisma means to the class, and that this dichotomy makes the class more difficult to design for. Your problems developing "main staple abilities" might a symptom of that- the class is trying to do everything via Charisma, which seems to prohibit focusing on more specific abilities designed to deal with problems. At the same time, it looks like some Exalted design has snuck into the class- Exalted design is all about coming up with a cool moment, and building a charm to let people do it, as far as I can tell. However, that kind of design works (I think) much better in Exalted, where people can choose from a menu of options, and choose to tailor their charm set for the situations in which they deal with more often. (Also they have a built-in training mechanic, so people (in theory) can make up for bad or overly specific choices later on).
(This last bit is partly my personal thoughts about how I would design the class, and you can feel free to ignore it.)

------------------------------------------------------------

Changes I notice you made (you might want to list them or let me know if I missed some, because I'm just skimming):
SLAs now have you pick a spell list to choose from (good) and also you get a spell school (or 2) from your Specializations, which interact in a way which will be somewhat painful to deal with if you aren't picking from Wizard spells, but you only pick at level up so that's OK.
You can expend uses of spell-like abilities to upgrade your Glares to save-or-lose (on martials and everyone, respectively). Also I just spotted Aura of the Unchallenged which lets you delete attack rolls within a large radius.
Personality Triumphant lets you succeed on a save, but you have to know whether you would pass it normally ahead of time.
Magical Charisma Enhancement is a god-feat. "Before adding any other bonuses" is not well-defined in the rules; while I think I know what you mean, you might want to add the word "temporary".

Skills are still not included in the class.

Three out of four of the Specializations now have a number next to some of the abilities. The number isn't always the same. I have no idea what it means.

Typos are mostly removed, capitalization is cleaned up. It's very nice!
Sentence fragments are still my pet peeve. Sorry.

These changes are OK. The added support overpowers the abilities significantly, which is not quite what I intended to mean. However, the addition of the ability to expend SLAs for effects does add a whole lot of powerful support for SLAs. By that, I mean that level-by-level, the effects granted by those effects are more powerful than any equivalent spell you could pick. This does mean that the class is free to grab utility and buff options, it's just that the class is overpoweringly good in combat, and has the versatility of spells on top of that.
My comments on support were more intended in the vein of "How much is this class feature a central tool of the class", and making the statement that essentially, none of them were the focus of the class.

For more specific notes on abilities, see my first post, in the spoiler, where I reviewed abilities up to 9th level pre-rewrite, before the formatting exhausted me.

DC's are still mis-scaled, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread. This is probably the single largest source of trouble for the class balance-wise.
The standard number is (10 + 1/2 a level-scaling number (such as class level or ranks in a particular skill) + an ability score). Only use skill checks for something if you're OK with optimization making the check incredibly high (see: the skill based counters of Diamond Mind, where passing one saving throw doesn't instantly win the encounter).

GrayDeath
2017-03-08, 01:56 PM
Thank you for your detailled review/Help!!

That out of the way, yes, formation, my eternal nemesis. I will clean it up some more.
The numbers next to some abilites are the level they are gained at, which is explained aboove.

I will (probalb yon the weekend) redo all descriptions with cleared up level they are gained and added fluff.

The Exalted bit is ... true. It was some of the inspiration for the class after all. Probably gonna keep it.

The SLA`s into more Power so you choose more Support was intentional, the amount of which it was "more Power" was not. Redoing some more soonish.
Thanks again!