For want of a nail (or a lack of one)

[BlackDog918]

So, I'm wondering here, what would the DC be to pull a nail out of a wall without using a hammer? For instance, if a character is tied up and rather than burst their bindings they attempted to pull the mounting out of the wall/floor instead? I did a little digging and the closest thing I can find is the Stubborn Nail item, which calls for a DC 20 to pull out. However I would think that a nonmagical nail would be easier to remove, especially with a little leverage. Thoughts? Opinions?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It would, necessarily, depend on the nail or fastener in question. A 'typical' medieval nail can probably hold around the same weight as a good solid rope if you're pullng directly away from the center-line of the nail. Something in the low twenties shoud be about right.

If you're pulling perpendicular to the center-line of the nail, however, it's -much- sturdier. I'd put it somewhere in the upper twenties to maybe even 30.

Naturally, more nails means more strength but you'll eventually run up against the break DC for the objects being fastened at an equal or lesser value than the nails so there's that.

[BlackDog918]

Typical medieval nails are rather stout though, aren't they? About half as thick as a railroad spike and about as long?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Typical medieval nails are rather stout though, aren't they? About half as thick as a railroad spike and about as long?

Yep, but that actually gives them poorer purchase in the materials their driven into, funnily enough.

[BlackDog918]

Okay, how about this: what would give first, the nails, or the wood that they're hammered into?

[Gildedragon]

generally the nail will pop out before the wood breaks, unless the nail has bent significantly

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, how about this: what would give first, the nails, or the wood that they're hammered into?

Depends on what kind of wood, how much, and what angle you're applying the pressure.

[Gallowglass]

I would argue that all of this is part and parcel of the str based "burst bonds" check you are making to free yourself (or the escape artist check if you are so enskilled.) Whether you are freed by bursting the manacle, ripping the nail out, or shattering the housing, it seems like its all the same check, you are just fluffing the description.

Now if the standard check is, say 30, and they ask about something like you are describing, I might think "hmmm, if they did that, they'd be freed from the wall, but their wrists would still be bound so its a partial advantage" and reduce the check to 25 or something to represent the partial success they are aiming for. They are, after all, looking for a simpler challenge with a reduced outcome.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I would argue that all of this is part and parcel of the str based "burst bonds" check you are making to free yourself (or the escape artist check if you are so enskilled.) Whether you are freed by bursting the manacle, ripping the nail out, or shattering the housing, it seems like its all the same check, you are just fluffing the description.

Now if the standard check is, say 30, and they ask about something like you are describing, I might think "hmmm, if they did that, they'd be freed from the wall, but their wrists would still be bound so its a partial advantage" and reduce the check to 25 or something to represent the partial success they are aiming for. They are, after all, looking for a simpler challenge with a reduced outcome.

I get the impression that this is DM trying to figure out where to -set- burst DC's for items that aren't listed, like ripping a chair bolted to the floor out or jerking a door off its hinges, things like that.