Kol Korran
2016-04-03, 12:32 AM
A few months ago, in an unrelated discussion on this forum, a poster (Who's name I unfortunately don't' remember) Mentioned "The 8 Aesthetics of play". He linked to a few links- The original article, the Angry DM's explanation of it (Excellent), and the shorter and mroe concise video by Extra Credits, which explains this.
"Gaming for fun"- The Angry DM's explanation. Part 1. (http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/)
And Part 2. (http://angrydm.com/2014/02/gaming-for-fun-part-2-getting-engaged/)
Extra Credits Video about The 8 Aesthetics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepAJ-rqJKA)
The original article (http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf)
I read these, learned more about these, and it go me thinking... And so I examined my own group, the gamers preferences, and the sort of game we played. And as I read threads, and talked with others, I came to see, think, and analyze some approaches, some conceptions, some gaming issues, play styles, play preferences, and conflicts within groups as originating from the different game aesthetics.
Understanding these better, I was able to analyze and finally understand the core of the conflict between two players in my group (A major issue which has been going on for YEARS) and to find a way to approach it, and perhaps diffuse it. It helped me understand better the way I DM, what my players respond to more, what they respond to less, and it gave me an interesting new way to look upon gaming.
Two of my players seem to butt head a lot during game. It started when one of them joined the game, and played the role of a sort of a bastard, though he never actually betrayed the group, and he was loyal, he did try to evoke responses, and some inner party conflict. The 2nd player was deeply irritated by this, and though they joked at first, as time went by, he grew more and more irritated at the first player, more and more antagonizing, referring to him as "traitor", and worse.
We tried many different approaches, from open talks within the group, some other player buffering, and even asking for the two to somewhat change their game style or approach, but it was difficult to pinpoint the problem, even the players couldn't quite understand. The first player thought that the second one was picking on him, for no good reason, and keep demonizing him, while the second one honestly believed the first one was undermining the group, and hurting the fun.
Yet upon reading the articles, I came to try and analyze my group's main aesthetics. First, it became clear to me that Fantasy and Challenge were the two major shared aesthetics of our group. But I also realized the core aesthetics of the two players:
Player 1: Expression, Challenge, Narrative. Approximately in that order, Expression definitely the most dominant.
Player 2: Fellowship, Challenge, Fantasy. Fellowship was quite dominant here.
Now, the first player's attempts at Expression, whether it was the heavy background, the drama, the ever developing character with twists (he usually included a sort of a "dark phase", from which the character later grew), and his attempts to interact, and also "Poke/ provoke" other characters for their expressions and interactions, have marred and infringed on the second player's sense of Fellowship. The second player felt that the feeling of camaraderie, of "everyone on the same page, working for the same goal", was being constantly tested. The first player used to discuss with me (The DM) a lot between sessions about his character's development, and we at times came up with certain scenes/ elements. The 1st player wished to have it be revealed in the sessions, for dramatic effect, yet the 2nd player saw this as keeping secrets from the team.
Yet all of this we understood only after reading the article. Yeah, I knew the first player was big on Drama (perhaps a bit too much), but I didn't quite understand what bothered the second player so much. But once we realized this, we could come up with a way to approach this, and make the two players understand each other better. Simply because they seek different things from the game, and that their sensibilities are different...
And I think it made my game a lot better...
There are various issues that keep cropping out, which can also stem (To a point) from the aesthetics. Some examples:
- Railroading vs. Sandbox: Some players, some DMs prefer various approaches here, which can stem from the Challenge, Exploration, Expression and Narrativistic aesthetics, each pulling at different directions.
- Rollplay Vs. Roleplay: Optimization, using background, and more- The aesthtics of Fantasy, Expression, Challenge, and Narrative may influence these.
- Should death be meaningful? Or should it always be risky? Challenge and Fantasy vs Narrative and expression.
- Heavy Crunch systems vs Rules light systems- Game design that uses different aesthtics, and draws different players.
---------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Psyren made an important remark below, about the need to try and focus the thread about more concrete questions and topics. So... I suggest the following questions, as starter points. Feel free to expand o nthem, or add more issues that you think are important:
1. Aesthetics as a player:
What sort of Aesthetics did you find you were attracted to? How did you find it out? What helped to enhance those aesthetics? What diminished them?
I for one, found out that my main aesthetics are:
- Expression: I mostly GM, but when I play, I find myself spending a lot of time and effort into finding a way to think and play as the character, with a lot of thought given to mannerisms, ways of speech, small important possessions, interactions, and more. And character development is very important to me. I like to make an effect on the world, though I prefer those to be subtle, small, but long lasting.
- Fantasy: I remember a very odd occurance- When one of my friends GMed, we were conducting an investigation in a small village (My "It began with a crash!" campaign log), and at one point we wanted to meet with the village's main hunter. And when we came to his hut, the GM said "He isn't there, probably out hunting. Got a job you know!" and to my surprise, I got a HUGE rush of excitement hearing this! For the world felt alive, and not just constrained to the story. Things moved outside of our story, the world went on, and it gave me a great feeling of satisfaction. Since then I felt that "feeling the world was alive" regardless of us, was quite important to my sense of "fun".
- Exploration: I love finding out new things! Give me an unexplored map and I go ecstatic! I love pouring over maps, and imagining the things unknown, or solving a mystery. In the last Shadowrun game, were conducting another investigation, with lots of clues, dead ends, and more, and I just LOVE it! Give me a mystery, a puzzle, and something which I can figure out, and I'm satisfied!:smallbiggrin:
What about you?
2. Aesthetics as GM/ DM/ Story teller or such:
What sort of elements draw you in designing your game, for yourself, and for your players? What enhances it? What hinders it?
To my surprise, I think I quite adjust my own core aesthetics as a player to more fit my players' aesthetics, than mine. At some points i tried to veer more towards my own preferences (Most time unconsciously, not having the words or terms for the 8 aesthetics). Still, the core Aesthetics my GMin style seems to include:
- Challenge: The core aesthetic of my group. My players roll all of the dice, I don't fudge or soften challenges, and I invest a great deal of time in preparing stuff that will feel hard, yet possible, with various types of outcomes, and a measurable way to gauge success. I greatly believe in "lettign the dice fall where they may", which sits great with my group. My challenges tend to be complex, be they battles, investigations and mystery, or more. One of my GMing mottoes is "Everything is possible, but not necessarily easy".
- Expression: I try to work a lot with players to help them express their characters, and consciously try to create situations, opportunities and more that the players can interact with, express their characters and develop them.
It took me awhile to realize that one of my players really isn't much interested in that (Mostly comes for Challenge, Submission and Fellowship), and for another it's important, but far less than my own tastes. I tried to adjust accordingly.
- Fantasy: I like to make the world feel real, with believable responses, cultures, and such. People have personalities, motives, history, flaws and more. Things have their... place... in the world. It does conflict with Expression at times, but my players are good enough to try and make it work within the boundaries of Fantasy, and make it work so.
- Sensory: A fairly new emerging Aesthetics for me, only in the past few years. I am making more and more use of music, and of late also pictures- of locations, of people, and more. It adds quite nicely to the game (Most times, it took a while to learn what works and what doesn't), and... it helps me GM lot! Often music or images inspire me, and take me to different places...
What about you?
3. Aesthetics in game systems:
Which systems appeal to your aesthetics, and why? Which really don't, and why? Which systems offer good mechanics for specific aesthetics? What sort of mechanisms?
I for one love FATE core's "Aspects", as they greatly facilitate Expression, Narrative, and Fantasy, in simple, central and powerful way. An Aspect says something important about the character, location, item, and more. And as it can be used to both bolster success or as a major hindrance, these aspects form a major part of the game mechanics, and thus put these mechanics to the forefront of the game.
The simplistic rules (Deceptively simplistic I might say. They are immensely simple "stat wise", but quite subtle and deep in their meanings and potential), allow for extremely fast flowing improvisation, and thus enable the story to take a lot of turns, changes, surprises and flow very organically, which also enforces Expression and to a lesser degree- Narrative and Fantasy.
4. Are they just "8" aesthetics?
The 8 core Aesthetics have been revised, expanded and re evaluated over time. Do you think there are other Aesthetics? Or subdivisions of them?
For example- In the Extra Credits video, they mention "Competition" as another Aesthetic, which may be a subset of Challenge, or may be its own aesthetic? What games in the RPG tabletop fit this aesthetic? Various "Arena battle" games seem to fit, as do Paranoia (To an extent), or even Munchkin (Though a bit far from actual TTRPGs). What sort of other aesthetics do you think are out there?
5. The 8 aesthetics as a tool to understand group dynamics and problems.
We all have different styles, and these often may come into conflict. Have you used the aesthetics to understand your group's problems better? How? What did you do then?
I have allredy discussed how it helped my group in my opening post. What about your experiences?
----------------------------------------------------
These are but a few examples...
I am in the process of thinking up/ designing a new campaign (I twill take a long time...) While now playing in a game, and seeing how the different aesthetics come to play. (A Shadowrun game, which I'll post a log of at a later date). For me it has been quite an eye opener..
So, I think it might be worthwhile to discuss the Aesthetics, and their place in our games. So what are your experiences? Thoughts? Ideas? i invite you all for an open discussion...
"Gaming for fun"- The Angry DM's explanation. Part 1. (http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/)
And Part 2. (http://angrydm.com/2014/02/gaming-for-fun-part-2-getting-engaged/)
Extra Credits Video about The 8 Aesthetics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepAJ-rqJKA)
The original article (http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf)
I read these, learned more about these, and it go me thinking... And so I examined my own group, the gamers preferences, and the sort of game we played. And as I read threads, and talked with others, I came to see, think, and analyze some approaches, some conceptions, some gaming issues, play styles, play preferences, and conflicts within groups as originating from the different game aesthetics.
Understanding these better, I was able to analyze and finally understand the core of the conflict between two players in my group (A major issue which has been going on for YEARS) and to find a way to approach it, and perhaps diffuse it. It helped me understand better the way I DM, what my players respond to more, what they respond to less, and it gave me an interesting new way to look upon gaming.
Two of my players seem to butt head a lot during game. It started when one of them joined the game, and played the role of a sort of a bastard, though he never actually betrayed the group, and he was loyal, he did try to evoke responses, and some inner party conflict. The 2nd player was deeply irritated by this, and though they joked at first, as time went by, he grew more and more irritated at the first player, more and more antagonizing, referring to him as "traitor", and worse.
We tried many different approaches, from open talks within the group, some other player buffering, and even asking for the two to somewhat change their game style or approach, but it was difficult to pinpoint the problem, even the players couldn't quite understand. The first player thought that the second one was picking on him, for no good reason, and keep demonizing him, while the second one honestly believed the first one was undermining the group, and hurting the fun.
Yet upon reading the articles, I came to try and analyze my group's main aesthetics. First, it became clear to me that Fantasy and Challenge were the two major shared aesthetics of our group. But I also realized the core aesthetics of the two players:
Player 1: Expression, Challenge, Narrative. Approximately in that order, Expression definitely the most dominant.
Player 2: Fellowship, Challenge, Fantasy. Fellowship was quite dominant here.
Now, the first player's attempts at Expression, whether it was the heavy background, the drama, the ever developing character with twists (he usually included a sort of a "dark phase", from which the character later grew), and his attempts to interact, and also "Poke/ provoke" other characters for their expressions and interactions, have marred and infringed on the second player's sense of Fellowship. The second player felt that the feeling of camaraderie, of "everyone on the same page, working for the same goal", was being constantly tested. The first player used to discuss with me (The DM) a lot between sessions about his character's development, and we at times came up with certain scenes/ elements. The 1st player wished to have it be revealed in the sessions, for dramatic effect, yet the 2nd player saw this as keeping secrets from the team.
Yet all of this we understood only after reading the article. Yeah, I knew the first player was big on Drama (perhaps a bit too much), but I didn't quite understand what bothered the second player so much. But once we realized this, we could come up with a way to approach this, and make the two players understand each other better. Simply because they seek different things from the game, and that their sensibilities are different...
And I think it made my game a lot better...
There are various issues that keep cropping out, which can also stem (To a point) from the aesthetics. Some examples:
- Railroading vs. Sandbox: Some players, some DMs prefer various approaches here, which can stem from the Challenge, Exploration, Expression and Narrativistic aesthetics, each pulling at different directions.
- Rollplay Vs. Roleplay: Optimization, using background, and more- The aesthtics of Fantasy, Expression, Challenge, and Narrative may influence these.
- Should death be meaningful? Or should it always be risky? Challenge and Fantasy vs Narrative and expression.
- Heavy Crunch systems vs Rules light systems- Game design that uses different aesthtics, and draws different players.
---------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Psyren made an important remark below, about the need to try and focus the thread about more concrete questions and topics. So... I suggest the following questions, as starter points. Feel free to expand o nthem, or add more issues that you think are important:
1. Aesthetics as a player:
What sort of Aesthetics did you find you were attracted to? How did you find it out? What helped to enhance those aesthetics? What diminished them?
I for one, found out that my main aesthetics are:
- Expression: I mostly GM, but when I play, I find myself spending a lot of time and effort into finding a way to think and play as the character, with a lot of thought given to mannerisms, ways of speech, small important possessions, interactions, and more. And character development is very important to me. I like to make an effect on the world, though I prefer those to be subtle, small, but long lasting.
- Fantasy: I remember a very odd occurance- When one of my friends GMed, we were conducting an investigation in a small village (My "It began with a crash!" campaign log), and at one point we wanted to meet with the village's main hunter. And when we came to his hut, the GM said "He isn't there, probably out hunting. Got a job you know!" and to my surprise, I got a HUGE rush of excitement hearing this! For the world felt alive, and not just constrained to the story. Things moved outside of our story, the world went on, and it gave me a great feeling of satisfaction. Since then I felt that "feeling the world was alive" regardless of us, was quite important to my sense of "fun".
- Exploration: I love finding out new things! Give me an unexplored map and I go ecstatic! I love pouring over maps, and imagining the things unknown, or solving a mystery. In the last Shadowrun game, were conducting another investigation, with lots of clues, dead ends, and more, and I just LOVE it! Give me a mystery, a puzzle, and something which I can figure out, and I'm satisfied!:smallbiggrin:
What about you?
2. Aesthetics as GM/ DM/ Story teller or such:
What sort of elements draw you in designing your game, for yourself, and for your players? What enhances it? What hinders it?
To my surprise, I think I quite adjust my own core aesthetics as a player to more fit my players' aesthetics, than mine. At some points i tried to veer more towards my own preferences (Most time unconsciously, not having the words or terms for the 8 aesthetics). Still, the core Aesthetics my GMin style seems to include:
- Challenge: The core aesthetic of my group. My players roll all of the dice, I don't fudge or soften challenges, and I invest a great deal of time in preparing stuff that will feel hard, yet possible, with various types of outcomes, and a measurable way to gauge success. I greatly believe in "lettign the dice fall where they may", which sits great with my group. My challenges tend to be complex, be they battles, investigations and mystery, or more. One of my GMing mottoes is "Everything is possible, but not necessarily easy".
- Expression: I try to work a lot with players to help them express their characters, and consciously try to create situations, opportunities and more that the players can interact with, express their characters and develop them.
It took me awhile to realize that one of my players really isn't much interested in that (Mostly comes for Challenge, Submission and Fellowship), and for another it's important, but far less than my own tastes. I tried to adjust accordingly.
- Fantasy: I like to make the world feel real, with believable responses, cultures, and such. People have personalities, motives, history, flaws and more. Things have their... place... in the world. It does conflict with Expression at times, but my players are good enough to try and make it work within the boundaries of Fantasy, and make it work so.
- Sensory: A fairly new emerging Aesthetics for me, only in the past few years. I am making more and more use of music, and of late also pictures- of locations, of people, and more. It adds quite nicely to the game (Most times, it took a while to learn what works and what doesn't), and... it helps me GM lot! Often music or images inspire me, and take me to different places...
What about you?
3. Aesthetics in game systems:
Which systems appeal to your aesthetics, and why? Which really don't, and why? Which systems offer good mechanics for specific aesthetics? What sort of mechanisms?
I for one love FATE core's "Aspects", as they greatly facilitate Expression, Narrative, and Fantasy, in simple, central and powerful way. An Aspect says something important about the character, location, item, and more. And as it can be used to both bolster success or as a major hindrance, these aspects form a major part of the game mechanics, and thus put these mechanics to the forefront of the game.
The simplistic rules (Deceptively simplistic I might say. They are immensely simple "stat wise", but quite subtle and deep in their meanings and potential), allow for extremely fast flowing improvisation, and thus enable the story to take a lot of turns, changes, surprises and flow very organically, which also enforces Expression and to a lesser degree- Narrative and Fantasy.
4. Are they just "8" aesthetics?
The 8 core Aesthetics have been revised, expanded and re evaluated over time. Do you think there are other Aesthetics? Or subdivisions of them?
For example- In the Extra Credits video, they mention "Competition" as another Aesthetic, which may be a subset of Challenge, or may be its own aesthetic? What games in the RPG tabletop fit this aesthetic? Various "Arena battle" games seem to fit, as do Paranoia (To an extent), or even Munchkin (Though a bit far from actual TTRPGs). What sort of other aesthetics do you think are out there?
5. The 8 aesthetics as a tool to understand group dynamics and problems.
We all have different styles, and these often may come into conflict. Have you used the aesthetics to understand your group's problems better? How? What did you do then?
I have allredy discussed how it helped my group in my opening post. What about your experiences?
----------------------------------------------------
These are but a few examples...
I am in the process of thinking up/ designing a new campaign (I twill take a long time...) While now playing in a game, and seeing how the different aesthetics come to play. (A Shadowrun game, which I'll post a log of at a later date). For me it has been quite an eye opener..
So, I think it might be worthwhile to discuss the Aesthetics, and their place in our games. So what are your experiences? Thoughts? Ideas? i invite you all for an open discussion...