Should magic items be readily available or custom ordered?

[gogogome]

Some characters want weapons with specific enchantments on them, others want custom runestaves. It kind of feels weird to me that these items would be readily available. I don't think it's weird that the crafters are readily available since these items has to be made by someone in the city.

What are your thoughts?

[ryu]

Some characters want weapons with specific enchantments on them, others want custom runestaves. It kind of feels weird to me that these items would be readily available. I don't think it's weird that the crafters are readily available since these items has to be made by someone in the city.

What are your thoughts?

Consider for a moment that these items don't just disappear when their owner retires or dies. Also consider that specific enchantments that are useful compared to other enchantments will rise in demand. Therefore, assuming that all prices will remain static as per standard rules, the ready supply of such items for sale should increase to meet demand. Economy is a thing.

Also I wouldn't call putting a particular enchantment on a weapon custom. Enchantments are literally just interchangeable effects designed at outset to be applied to items. Calling a weapon with a given enchantment custom is like calling a sniper rifle with a scope custom. Past the lowest levels of play I balk at the idea of a piece of equipment that isn't magic in some way or another.

[gogogome]

To counter your argument though, there are like 20 different weapon enchantments, and you can stack several on a single weapon, so if you calculate the total possible number of weapons... having such an astronomical variety of different weapons in a non-metropolis city seems weird. I don't mind having single weapon enchantments readily available though party for the same reasons you said.

I'm more concerned about runestaves though.

[ryu]

To counter your argument though, there are like 20 different weapon enchantments, and you can stack several on a single weapon, so if you calculate the total possible number of weapons... having such an astronomical variety of different weapons in a non-metropolis city seems weird. I don't mind having single weapon enchantments readily available though party for the same reasons you said.

I'm more concerned about runestaves though.

Also keep in mind that there exist plenty of methods for making the crafting of weapons easier even if you aren't going infinite. Do you have any concept of just how cheaply an artificer can make something for? Let alone their ability to convert less desired items into crafting XP for better items, or the free craft reserve per level?

Also weapons don't run out of uses and they're rarely destroyed. Also also, by power of adventurers looting things most all equipment will find its way back to towns with time.

Net effect? If it's a desirable combination of traits it almost certainly exists in any society that can support it in trade on a daily basis, and still probably exists in more moderate towns if in less supply. Still probably one or two for sale though. High level adventurers can just teleport to the bigger cities after all, and the ones who can't likely also can't afford the more expensive weapons.

[Yahzi]

What are your thoughts?
Anything better than a bog standard +1 weapon or armor should require a custom order, including making friends with the caster and going on a quest to obtain some part of the materials. Heck, just buying MW weapons and armor is almost the same; this is a medieval economy, not a modern consumer one.

And pay attention to caster levels and feats. You have to be 11th lvl to make even the weakest ring.

[ryu]

Anything better than a bog standard +1 weapon or armor should require a custom order, including making friends with the caster and going on a quest to obtain some part of the materials. Heck, just buying MW weapons and armor is almost the same; this is a medieval economy, not a modern consumer one.

And pay attention to caster levels and feats. You have to be 11th lvl to make even the weakest ring.

Do we really have to go over why the economy being medieval in a world with teleporation doesn't make even a small amount of sense? By rights the economy should be leagues more advanced than what passes for ''first world'' to people in this world.

[Spore]

Do we really have to go over why the economy being medieval in a world with teleporation doesn't make even a small amount of sense? By rights the economy should be leagues more advanced than what passes for ''first world'' to people in this world.

Have you seen the numbers of people capable of casting such spells? Adventurers are 1% of the populace, wizards are but a fraction of that, and again a fraction of that is capable of casting teleportation (probably behind a paywall). If we say one out of ten adventurers is capable of learning teleport, and again one out of 10 out of those can actually cast it, then a nation such as Amn (3mil people) would have about three hundred of those wizards.

If you compare these numbers to university professors in a similarly populated land in the real world then you would want a system where any and all weapon enchantment is catalogued and pulled from the archives somewhere on any magic academy.

[Cosi]

In 3e, magic items need to be available for sale. Otherwise, Fighters suck even harder than they do already, and nobody wants that. If you're asking a fluff question (players pick it up now v after a timeskip), I don't really care. Probably just have more obscure stuff in larger cities, and some regional availability stuff. If you're trading with Drow, you can get an Amber Amulet of Vermin off the shelf, but you might have to wait if you're buying it from Halflings. Whatever.

If you're changing the system, I like the idea of tiers of magic items. Some stuff is technology you can just buy (i.e. healing potions, magically sharp swords), some stuff is art you have to commission (i.e. a cloak that turns you into a bat, a runestaff of travel), and some stuff is unique and has to be specifically begged, borrowed, or stolen (i.e. The Sword of Kas, the Eye of Vecna). Then you can mess with those dials to get what you want.


Do we really have to go over why the economy being medieval in a world with teleporation doesn't make even a small amount of sense? By rights the economy should be leagues more advanced than what passes for ''first world'' to people in this world.

Sort of. It's definitely not going to be medieval, but it's not going to look like a modern economy. There's never an industrial revolution where technological capital replaces human capital, and allows industry or agriculture to become massively more productive. Human capital simply reaches the point where the productive capacity of one Wizard is greater than that of a modern factory complex.

[Uhtred]

With my players, in their campaign world, they have an NPC Artificer/Master Alchemist that they regularly deal with, and since they send a lot of money and plunder his way he's typically willing to make them what they want. For an item with a price point of over 8k, though, he does require advanced notice (and therefore at least a session) to finish the thing (or at least hand it over to one of his Dedicated Wrights to finish.) That's an important distinction to make, too: a popular Artificer/Crafter could easily create Dedicated Wrights or similar constructs to finish multiple projects, so the thought that a single magical craftsman could finish a whole party's custom orders at once (roughly, crafting time is still a thing) isn't farfetched. An Artificer's only limitation is in gold and refilling his crafting reservoir, so if a party keeps him stocked with both they could earn some VIP treatment (as long as they aren't jerks.)

[Pinkie Pyro]

Best way to think of it: A magic item crafter makes a 99~% ish profit. (double base price, but you have to factor in crafting time, which if converted into a profession or craft check is only going to be a couple gold difference).

therefore, it stands to reason that they would invest in this. A single high level wizard could run a business where he hires a bunch of magic item crafters to constantly pump out custom orders, then teleports the goods to whoever ordered them.

at least, that's what I have in my campaigns. *Shrug*

[Uhtred]

...then teleports the goods to whoever ordered them.
at least, that's what I have in my campaigns. *Shrug*

My guy has a bunch of Amazons on hand to make his deliveries for him, since they're fast and can take care of themselves in combat. If my PC's are willing to pay extra for delivery, they can get their items the day they're finished since he sends them out with the Prime Amazon, who is a lot faster than the others.

[Âmesang]

I've only ever really been a stickler for gold piece limits in city; e.g. if you're adventuring primarily in a small city who's limit is 15,000 gp, don't expect to find a +5 vorpal blade anywhere in the limits no matter how much loot you've procured. Cities that go beyond that limit due to specific reasons seem to be a touch rare (such as Thornward in WORLD OF GREYHAWK® being a major trading center between several nations/regions).

If anything it just means the party would have to be a bit clever and be ready to travel far out. When they reach high enough level to cast teleport and plane shift, why not have them travel to far-off places they've learned of due to Gather Information, Knowledge, and bardic knowledge checks? As they travel from a small city to a large city to a metropolis… or even from one Material Plane to another via shadow walk… that could open up avenues for further adventures. The quest for the armoire of invincibility!

Eventually all roads point to Sigil, no? :smalltongue: Or Union or the City of Brass. With a vast multiverse before them a party should be able to find whatever it is they're looking for; it just might take some time and a few checks.

Although finding a guy to custom order them doesn't mean it still won't take time to craft the item. I kind of hope to face a party that's greedy and, to alleviate wait time, the crafter casts some sort of epic mass temporal stasis to freeze the party, dispelling the effect when he's done… only to find that months or even years have gone by and the BBEG they were supposed to face has already won (though that could just lead into a quest for a scroll of teleport through time to give them a chance to undue their mistakes). Well, that's probably a bit cruel on my part either way.

[Ualaa]

It is going to be campaign and DM specific.
What works in one, may not be even close to what is good for another.

We have played a campaign with many of the Trailblazer rules (Bad Axe Games came out with a ruleset to 'fix' 3.x edition, at about the same time that Paizo released Pathfinder).
In Trailblazer, the creation of Potions, Scrolls and Wands is normal, but the feats for the creation of higher items (Craft Wondrous, Craft Arms & Armor, Craft Rods, Forge Ring, etc.., everything that isn't a Potion/Scroll/Wand) is lost knowledge.
With no one, world-wide having the ability to craft a Wondrous Item, you're kind of forced to adventure for them.
Lower items may be somewhat readily available in a massive trade center, such as Sigil (Planescape) or the City of Brass, but may never be for sale on a prime material world.
A merchant king, may give you 30,000gp value in gems, for that kind of an item, but you'll never be able to spend it on a non-consumable magical item.
It's also important to note, the 'big six' items don't exist in Trailblazer. No Weapons, or Armor/Shield with enhancement bonuses (although you can still have Flaming or another property, on a +0 to-hit and to-damage item), no Resistance cloaks or an item with that bonus, no Stat increase items (Belt of Dex + Whatever), no Amulet of Natural Armor and no Ring of Protection. Also no items in another slot, that give these bonuses... so no Vest of Resistance, since (of Resistance) does not exist and never has.

I've had a planar metropolis, where if it's in the book or can be 'legally' created following the pricing formula given, it can readily be found.
Given the massive supply of that setting, most purchase and selling of items was very close to 100% of the market price, instead of getting 50% of that when selling.

In another setting, the Elven Empire had permanent Teleportation circles between their cities. While they were an empire in decline, they could still muster the defenses of their fifty city-states (former members of their Empire) and have highly trained professional soldiers wherever needed. They had a few crafters, who would take orders for item creation, charge an exorbitant amount but produce things that were not otherwise available.

In the Rappan Athuk dungeon, the nearby hamlet (Zelkor's Ferry) has a very low purchase limit. Without teleport, travel to 'big city' was an ordeal, with a caravan stopping in the nearby hamlet (and presumably dozens or more other smaller places) as it wound its way to and from Bard's Gate. Once the party had access to Teleportation, they spent months of campaign time (an entire session) traveling to two cities, one with a larger market and another for an atonement by a priest of the same religion as the Paladin who had trangressed.
The larger city has a 100% chance of having items up to 1,000gp value, a 15% chance of having an item with a market value of 1,001-5,000gp value, a 5% chance of an item worth 5,001-10,000gp value, and a 1% chance of an item worth in the 10,001-20,000gp range.
There is no where, that you can simply buy an item over that threshold.
To the knowledge of the characters, that is the 'best/biggest' market for magical items in the world.
In this particular setting, if you want cool stuff, you go into the dungeons and get it; by the time you're rich enough (Pathfinder uses GP value to craft items) and high enough to make something yourself, you are already capable of finding better stuff at your character level.
That said, the better stuff is not necessarily easy to get...
Through 50 sessions of play, we have had 50 character deaths... the most aggressive player, who takes the most risks, and likely has done more damage than everyone else's characters combined is on character #20, while the 'tank' who plays defensively and is adverse to risks is on his 4th character (with kick-ass characters... Gestalt, Advanced (standard level) build your own races, Mythic...).

Depending on the setting, there is a vast difference, and none are right or wrong. They just provide a different flavor.

[Troacctid]

I usually make common items easy to find—that's stuff that's in high demand, like bags of holding or +1 weapons—and rarer or custom items can be commissioned. What's common can vary depending on the region—for example, hooked hammers might be easy to find in a gnome city, not so easy to find in a dwarf city.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think it depends on what you order and where.
If you order ordinary stats (+1 / +2) with a single common enchantment, a smaller town may have it available on stock.
But if you are aiming for a high end weapon with a specific combination of enchantments it gets more problematic. The player could look out for a well renown magic weapon merchant in a big city. He may have it on stock (1-20% depending on the rarity/complexity of the desired item) or take the order and let him wait for some time (a few days, 1-2 weeks). Or the player could look out for a well known magic item crafter and order the item directly (reducing the price and the time to wait a lil bit).
Imho, the most important thing is, where you are looking. The size of the community (village, town, city, capital..) and maybe it's affection to magic items (weapons, armor, and utility items may be handled differently, depending on culture & society).

[Jack_Simth]

Some characters want weapons with specific enchantments on them, others want custom runestaves. It kind of feels weird to me that these items would be readily available. I don't think it's weird that the crafters are readily available since these items has to be made by someone in the city.

What are your thoughts?
It's mostly a campaign-world flavour thing, either way you slice it (to an extent it's also a game balance thing, but unless there's a close-to-constant rush to the campaign with little down-time, then there's little practical distinction whether you get the item right now or in three weeks).

It is entirely possible with just the core rulebooks (no need for even custom items) to build a setup such that you could, in fact, get almost any item in very short order if you've got the cash... it just requires a level of organization that's unlikely to occur to most people that have a medieval-ish mindset. However, if it seriously occurs to even one person with the resources to set it up, it's liable to stick around for a very long time (unless that person is not particularly security-conscious, in which case it'll be looted to the point of useless in short order).

So... yeah, flavour. In some campaign worlds, Bloodbath and Beyond should have that +1 Flaming Vorpal / +1 Frost Vorpal Orc Double Axe in stock enough that the clerk can fetch it in under five minutes. In other campaign worlds, you're going to need to commission one from two different people - one to get you the masterwork Orc Double Axe, another to enchant it, and you're going to need to wait most of a year to actually use it.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, what the PCs want is probably relatively specific. However, there's a very good chance that they are not the first people who would want that exact thing. So if there's a sufficiently robust magic economy, there's no real reason to assume that it's not available. Maybe for incredibly specific enchantments, it might be a bit difficult, but worse result I can ever see giving a player is "not at this one". Of course, that's also why my players tend to Plane Shift to planar metropolis to do their shopping, because getting incredibly specific custom items is relatively easy when a good chunk of the population can either Wish for such items, or cooerce other creatures into doing so.

[Coidzor]

To counter your argument though, there are like 20 different weapon enchantments, and you can stack several on a single weapon, so if you calculate the total possible number of weapons... having such an astronomical variety of different weapons in a non-metropolis city seems weird. I don't mind having single weapon enchantments readily available though party for the same reasons you said.

They're not buying one of every conceivable combination of weapons and weapon properties within the GP limit of the settlement. Therefore, there doesn't have to be one of everything for them to get one of what they want. Especially since people tend to focus on a smaller subset of weapons unless motivated by a racial choice, like dwarves having more magical dwarf waraxes than longswords or battleaxes due to weapon familiarity.

Increase Downtime and add a wait time between making inquiries and acquiring or having to commission it or the upgrading of a weapon with some of the enchantments to be what they want if you really want, just don't punish the players.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Here's how I explain the abstraction that is settlement gold caps in a large city.

You can get minor magic items (as in DMG table 7-27) by going to one of a number of local guilds, unions, or confederacies or even the odd noble house, depending on what exactly it is you're looking for; e.g. the mercanary companies have surplus arms and armor, usually looted from dungeons or off of targets, to supplement funding from jobs, likewise with the thieves guild for your more larcenous tools but not the loot because they have to fence that stuff asap to actually make a profit, the exploration confederacy sells items useful for travel and exploration as well as bits and bobs from the latest expedition that they haven't traded away yet, and the wizard's tower or temple of the god of commerce or artifice will have a broad selection of a bit of everything as well as the tools of the spellcasting trade and can have initiate members craft items on request. None of them will have a standing stockpile though, only a few, mostly random items that they're more likely to trade than to sell.

A +1 weapon is worth 40 trade-bars worth of gold. Nobody except money changers, trading companies, and governments traffic in that kind of cash. The above mentioned companies and guilds will -trade- you their goods for your loot and old equipment and will accept cash if you've got it, but -none- of them will give you cash for your crap unless it's something that they'll have a serious use for. They're going to immediately sell your old stuff to one or another trading company for cash for their own use.

The trading companies don't keep anything at the local office at all and don't do trade in minor items with individuals from the general public. They facilitate the exchange of those goods between the various companies and guilds and supply the governments with items in quantity immensely faster than the governments' crafters can make them. They will, however, deal with individuals for the exchange of intermediate and major magic items as brokers.

The only shops that actually keep a stockpile of magical goods are potion brewers. They don't worry about thieves because their whole stock is labeled in code, the key to which is either stored somewhere very secure after hours or only exists in the shop owner's head. There's also the factor of potions being pretty much unsellable by anyone but the guy who makes them. This is because there's no way to know if the potion you're being sold second-hand is what the seller says it is because he almost certainly didn't make it and if he stole it he might not even know what it is. If you rob a potion maker's shop the best you're going to get is a couple scrolls of spells that aren't on the shopkeeper's list, maybe a schema of a spell for a particularly popular potion, and a crap-ton of potions that you'll have to identify and can't sell. You might also get a few alchemical items, but noone cares about that.

So while you can't just go into any shop and buy a custom weapon or runestaves on the spot, you can get them if you're willing to commision it and wait a few days.

[MisterKaws]

Well, my worlds are usually twice as technologically advanced as Tippyverse, where most of the high-level NPCs are munchkins who went for the most optimized builds possible, and the local innkeeper hunts adult dragons as a hobby, so... yeah, you can get pretty much anything you want, as long as it's an item made with some optimization in mind.

[ryu]

There are spells at almost every level which will have permanent or near permanent effects on society as a whole with every casting. For extreme examples you get teleporation circle which literally just obviates all travel between two points in the world even for non-magical peasants for basically ever. For less extreme stuff we can talk about the setups for cheap farms which require little to no supervision and are as efficient or more than ours, or health care that beats ours by several country miles. For pity's sake, death and old age are curable and even permanently preventable illnesses in D&D.

[Pex]

It's subjective to the individual DM. While it's not necessary for a player to get everything he wants, that does not equate to the player never gets what he wants. In a low magic game the item could be a special treasure from an adventure arc. In a mid magic game the PC could be acquiring the parts and ingredients necessary to make it or a reward from a Patron for accomplishing a task. In a high magic game it's a defeated BBEG treasure item, the player purchases it, or he makes it himself.

[MisterKaws]

There are spells at almost every level which will have permanent or near permanent effects on society as a whole with every casting. For extreme examples you get teleporation circle which literally just obviates all travel between two points in the world even for non-magical peasants for basically ever. For less extreme stuff we can talk about the setups for cheap farms which require little to no supervision and are as efficient or more than ours, or health care that beats ours by several country miles. For pity's sake, death and old age are curable and even permanently preventable illnesses in D&D.

Cheap farms? An unlimited food-making machine costs 27000 GP, so making farms is obsolete; just create one of those and teleport the food through some other means. For the royalty, you just put Heroes' Feast instead and get the deluxe version for 118,800 GP. Any kingdom would gladly build some of those, since they'd pay off by cutting off all expenses in food money and even free people from farming.

[Necroticplague]

Cheap farms? An unlimited food-making machine costs 27000 GP, so making farms is obsolete; just create one of those and teleport the food through some other means. For the royalty, you just put Heroes' Feast instead and get the deluxe version for 118,800 GP. Any kingdom would gladly build some of those, since they'd pay off by cutting off all expenses in food money and even free people from farming.

Why would royalty want such a thing to exist? They have power because they own the land. Owning land is important because it's what lets you make food. if you don't need to work the land to make food, land becomes worth significantly less. if the land becomes worth less, the power of the royalty drops. So no kingdom would build one, due to the vested interest of its leaders in making sure it doesn't exist.

((At least, sticking with the incredibly selfish type of thinking that seems to be the mindset of the time. A more enlightened view would point out that while they))

[MisterKaws]

Why would royalty want such a thing to exist? They have power because they own the land. Owning land is important because it's what lets you make food. if you don't need to work the land to make food, land becomes worth significantly less. if the land becomes worth less, the power of the royalty drops. So no kingdom would build one, due to the vested interest of its leaders in making sure it doesn't exist.

((At least, sticking with the incredibly selfish type of thinking that seems to be the mindset of the time. A more enlightened view would point out that while they))

I really have to stop using the word kingdom...

Most of my countries are run by councils of casters, for obvious reasons, such as being able to create unlimited food and making royalty obsolete.

[Coidzor]

Cheap farms? An unlimited food-making machine costs 27000 GP, so making farms is obsolete; just create one of those and teleport the food through some other means. For the royalty, you just put Heroes' Feast instead and get the deluxe version for 118,800 GP. Any kingdom would gladly build some of those, since they'd pay off by cutting off all expenses in food money and even free people from farming.

Of course, then there's the question of what to do with them.


There are spells at almost every level which will have permanent or near permanent effects on society as a whole with every casting. For extreme examples you get teleporation circle which literally just obviates all travel between two points in the world even for non-magical peasants for basically ever. For less extreme stuff we can talk about the setups for cheap farms which require little to no supervision and are as efficient or more than ours, or health care that beats ours by several country miles. For pity's sake, death and old age are curable and even permanently preventable illnesses in D&D.

How? I'm familiar with plant growth, but nothing that obviates the need for farm tasks to be done or makes establishing or running a farm cheaper unless you use a lyre of building to clear land and till soil. Unless there's a way to get a horde of unseen crafters or something working on the general tasks of maintaining croplands?

[Nifft]

In one of my campaign worlds, there were a couple of magic item auction houses.

You went in, I had a computer program roll up a list of what was on auction that week, and you bid on stuff (which settled at the end of the week).

I hand-tuned some prices to reflect the current news, but otherwise price drift was rolled randomly (but the roll was a bell-shaped curve, centered at the base price).

Common items were more common, of course, but no specific item was guaranteed to be on sale any particular week.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I allow all kinds of custom items with the understanding that it is outside the norm and requires the players to wait in game time for them to be crafted. I also make sure to provide plenty of opportunity to have down time for this and one of the PCs is an Artificer.

EDIT: Oh and any commission job requires half payment up front.

[ryu]

Of course, then there's the question of what to do with them.



How? I'm familiar with plant growth, but nothing that obviates the need for farm tasks to be done or makes establishing or running a farm cheaper unless you use a lyre of building to clear land and till soil. Unless there's a way to get a horde of unseen crafters or something working on the general tasks of maintaining croplands?

Oh if you want to just do it with bodies of some sort we have ways. Cheapest would probably be low level undead creation, but we can also do various other options if you get squeamish about skeletons doing your work. For example cheap and efficient constructs that don't need combat optimization are still gonna be cheaper and require less maintenance than the mass of squishy peasants that are vulnerable to most everything and require food. We can even create subservient archons to teleport things for travel purposes.

[Quertus]

If your shop isn't using divinations to know what to make and have it ready before the customer asks for it, it's been put out of business by the shops that do.

[Thurbane]

My 2 cents? It depends entirely on the campaign.

If there's a magic mart in every town and groups of spellcasters just sitting around waiting to take item orders, then it's one kind of campaign.

If you're playing a lower magic type game, and most magic loot is found, or relics from bygone days, it's a different type of campaign.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages...


...there's also a whole lot of room in between the two different ends of the spectrum, where a lot of (most?) games end up.

[Yahzi]

Do we really have to go over why the economy being medieval in a world with teleporation doesn't make even a small amount of sense?
I love the Tippyverse; but does anyone actually play in that world? Every single published module is a faux-medieval society; I assume the vast majority of games take place in worlds like that.

I have two very simple house-rules that make it all consistent and sensible, so my world is not plagued by overwhelming magic. My world still has castles and barons and armies of swordsmen.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I love the Tippyverse; but does anyone actually play in that world? Every single published module is a faux-medieval society; I assume the vast majority of games take place in worlds like that.

I have two very simple house-rules that make it all consistent and sensible, so my world is not plagued by overwhelming magic. My world still has castles and barons and armies of swordsmen.

It only takes one decision, not even a houserule, to unravel the whole thing; if the gods are active, the Tippyverse event horizon can't occur. Tippy even outlined, when he first explained his extrapolations, that one of the presumptions of such a world is that the gods are largely inactive or absent. Take that away and the whole thing comes undone.

[Fizban]

The DMG provides gp limits on what you can buy, and also the standard levels of NPCs available. It's reasonable to assume some of the top level casters will have crafting feats for doing business and as long as you don't offend them in some way will make whatever you want, but that doesn't mean they have a copy of every one of the hundreds and thousands of individual items, let alone the lol number of potential combinations of weapon/armor enhancements. In a big enough city there's a chance you get connected with a guy who happens to have exactly what you're looking for as long as it's reasonable to exist, but the fraction of a percent that actually use and trade in those items still makes it rather unlikely. In smaller towns, even the smallest thorp gets a roll for members of each PHB and NPC class (in fact they can easily have more PC classed people than commoners, which I explain as frontier/isolated areas that don't yet have the stability to attract commoners). Wizards start with scribe scroll for free, Brew Potion/Craft Wondrous only require 3rd, and city NPCs are more likely to take crafting feats than murder hobos riding the bleeding edge of murdering.

Only the cheapest and most obvious magic items should be available "off the shelf," with the assumption that someone actually makes and keeps them around just for sale (and those sales will be so far between it's hardly worth it to save the 1 day crafting time). Wands of Cure Light, Mage Armor or Shield, and whatever the most popular 1st level blasting spell is, Healing Belts, +1 daggers/longswords/heavy shields/full plate, stuff like that. Potions and Scrolls of 1st-2nd level spells can have a bit more options but they'll still be obvious stuff.

How much stock is on the shelf? That's quite easy to determine: an appropriate amount compared to the CR/EL of the defenses. A hermit with Adept levels only has their personal gear and maybe a few consumables or a wand that might be half used. A high level wizard in a metropolis who specifically deals in magic item trade will have their personal gear, and be capable of making plenty of deathtraps and security measures to guard whatever is actually on the material plane (the important stuff is hidden behind a Secret Chest spell, which is completely un-theftable by all but the most powerful magic and can be warded further against that). If your world has a bustling magic item trade then shops can have lots of stock as long as they're appropriately guarded, or you can have there be no serious item trade and the PC have to sell their magic loot directly to a caster who'll craft what they actually want in exchange.

Guilds and organizations can of course have items on hand suited to their members' needs, and have a whole guild of people ready to murder anyone who tries to steal from them.

Consider for a moment that these items don't just disappear when their owner retires or dies. . .
Also I wouldn't call putting a particular enchantment on a weapon custom. Enchantments are literally just interchangeable effects designed at outset to be applied to items. Calling a weapon with a given enchantment custom is like calling a sniper rifle with a scope custom. Past the lowest levels of play I balk at the idea of a piece of equipment that isn't magic in some way or another.
Ah, but consider the fact that for every party of Player characters coddled by the DM or manipulating the odds, there are dozens of off-screen parties that die in obscurity to monsters who cart off whatever items they'd managed to scrape together.

You can't compare magic item abilities to anything modern: rifle scopes (and rifles) are mass produced in factories to standard dimensions, are on the same price scale as the weapon itself, and are actually interchangeable between various makes and models. Magic weapons above +1 cost as much as a nice house and orders of magnitude more than a basic weapon (which itself must be hand-crafted barring mid-high level magic), must be hand-crafted one at a time a week at a time, and once created the enhancement is 100% non-transferable completely stuck on that weapon forever (barring special homebrew or splat material I've never heard of). There is no comparison. Augment Crystals on the other hand are the perfect example of cheap interchangeable items: if they've been around long enough they're certain to be in circulation, just like Healing Belts.

[Yahzi]

if the gods are active, the Tippyverse event horizon can't occur.
That's too heavy-handed for me. I get by with: A) the XP curve doubles at every step, B) XP is harvested from the death of sentient beings (so a baron farms XP from his peasants like they farm meat from their herds), C) XP is tangible, and D) monsters show up and try to eat any community that gets someone to 17th level.

[Grand Poobah]

What are your thoughts?

I'm coincidentally going through this exact process in my campaign as my players are just hitting the point where they'll start having disposable income to buy more than just potions and CLW wands.

I've broadly broken item availability down as follows.

Anything over the city's 10,000gp limit isn't available without significant investment in time and/or resources to find someone who can craft items of this value.

Under that 10k limit I've broken down the items into groups; potions and scrolls, wands, rods, rings, wondrous items, arms, armour. Staffs exceed the 10k limit so aren't available even to order.

Anything that isn't readily available which doesn't exceed the 10k limit can be ordered. Orders take 2-7 days plus 1 day per 1,000gp cost of item with some variables depending on any relationship between item and geographic location e.g. a dwarf hold = more armour/arms less scrolls.

Potions/scrolls are readily available in quantities up to half a dozen max. Anything beyond that can be ordered except for scrolls of 7th-9th level.

Wands, rods, rings and wondrous items described as 'minor' in the DMG are broken down into two broad groups. Items that cost under X,000gp are available in single quantities while anything between that and the 10k ceiling can be ordered. 'Medium' and 'Major' items aren't available even if under 10k gp.

Arms/armour is slightly different in that the cost of the armour/arms+special materials is separate from the cost of any special abilities. The maximum enhancement bonus available is +3, which also applies to special abilities as long as they don't exceed the 10k limit.

My reasoning for the above are twofold; a) nobody in their right mind would hold anything more than a rudimentary stock of items when any mid to high level wizard can come in a steal it all and b) it encourages the players to take some item creation feats

[ryu]

It only takes one decision, not even a houserule, to unravel the whole thing; if the gods are active, the Tippyverse event horizon can't occur. Tippy even outlined, when he first explained his extrapolations, that one of the presumptions of such a world is that the gods are largely inactive or absent. Take that away and the whole thing comes undone.

Gods being active doesn't mean tippyverse cannot occur. It simply means that as there are so many gods with so many different interests, goals, and at such a high power level beyond even wizards that you cannot form a single powerfully predictive model the way you can if they aren't active.

Active deities prevent nothing. They CAUSE chaos.

[Andezzar]

To counter your argument though, there are like 20 different weapon enchantments, and you can stack several on a single weapon, so if you calculate the total possible number of weapons... having such an astronomical variety of different weapons in a non-metropolis city seems weird. I don't mind having single weapon enchantments readily available though party for the same reasons you said.Yeah the mom and pop shop probably won't stock all of the options, but unless the DM decides that a given locale has less items than the GMG suggests, in a large enough settlement there will be at least one person that sells whatever the PC desires up to a certain value.
If the PCs have to have their stuff made on demand instead off getting it off the shelf, the acquisition date is just pushed back a bit. If they order it ahead of time, not even that. The only drawback is that upgrading magic items is less desirable.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Gods being active doesn't mean tippyverse cannot occur. It simply means that as there are so many gods with so many different interests, goals, and at such a high power level beyond even wizards that you cannot form a single powerfully predictive model the way you can if they aren't active.

Active deities prevent nothing. They CAUSE chaos.

Some of them have active interest in preventing tippyverse shennanigans from coming to pass and removing the offending items/persons when they pop up. Unless you're going with an entirely custom pantheon(s), they'll do a -fine- job of preventing it. E.G. I can't see gods of agriculture or famine being thrilled with resetting create food traps being a thing. The TP circles at the center of it all can become a thing, sure, but without the support of the other stuff that alone won't change the world all that drastically.

[ryu]

Some of them have active interest in preventing tippyverse shennanigans from coming to pass and removing the offending items/persons when they pop up. Unless you're going with an entirely custom pantheon(s), they'll do a -fine- job of preventing it. E.G. I can't see gods of agriculture or famine being thrilled with resetting create food traps being a thing. The TP circles at the center of it all can become a thing, sure, but without the support of the other stuff that alone won't change the world all that drastically.

Do you... Not understand just how big a barrier travel actually is to trade when your best non-magical travel is a horse drawn wagon, the roads are full of bandits, beasts, and who knows what other random encounters, and so on? Do you have any concept of the sheer material wealth we throw at this problem in our world to have something that ultimately pales in comparison to what a teleportation circle just is? To put this in perspective all regionalism of trade is obsolete. To put this in perspective there aren't poor towns anymore. Literally every problem solvable by teleporting between known cities is permanently solved for everyone forever. Even that one. Especially that one.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Do you... Not understand just how big a barrier travel actually is to trade when your best non-magical travel is a horse drawn wagon, the roads are full of bandits, beasts, and who knows what other random encounters, and so on? Do you have any concept of the sheer material wealth we throw at this problem in our world to have something that ultimately pales in comparison to what a teleportation circle just is? To put this in perspective all regionalism of trade is obsolete. To put this in perspective there aren't poor towns anymore. Literally every problem solvable by teleporting between known cities is permanently solved for everyone forever. Even that one. Especially that one.

So, air-travel minus the fuel and maintenance costs only a bit faster.

You still have to get resources -to- the teleport circles. They don't move. Food has to be produced in -huge- quantities to feed a city and -that- will limit the growth of a city to a maximum size and require rural folks to raise it. Flora and Fauna are also regional concerns and the cities that control the production of high-demand goods will still have an angle over other cities that don't, take saffron as a RL example.

Then there's the issue of power groups opposed to the teleport circles in general and those that are opposed to unrestricted use of them in specific. Such groups become -really- hard to ignore when they're backed by honest-to-goodness deities; coordinate clergy, divine magical interference and, in the worst case, even direct divine intervention if the scale tips too far.

Then there's the naked tribalism of the mirrored period. People tend to instinctively reject people that are different from themselves. A simple look at RL makes this -abundantly- clear and we live in the period in which tolerance for interpersonal difference is the highest it's ever been.

As long as scarcity and ideological differences are in place, the best you're going to do is a rough mirror of pre-information age reality but with magic replacing mechanical technology. Gods ensure that -both- of these things will continue to exist because they depend on one and around half of them demand the other.

To answer your question, yes. I'm very much aware of the fact that logistics is a multibillion dollar industry. I used to work in it.

[Cosi]

Also, this is a medieval society. Ricardo hasn't written about comparative advantage and gains from trade. There's not really any compelling reason to believe Wizards would chose to improve society by making trade easier, rather than more obvious routes like "preventing the zombie apocalypse" or "killing rampaging dragons".

[Andezzar]

Also, this is a medieval society. Ricardo hasn't written about comparative advantage and gains from trade. There's not really any compelling reason to believe Wizards would chose to improve society by making trade easier, rather than more obvious routes like "preventing the zombie apocalypse" or "killing rampaging dragons".Don't you think people with INT in their 20s would come up with such ideas about trade? Even if not, resetting traps of create food and water at least would be a very stragihtforward extrapolation of the rules. They alone would vastly change medieval society.

As for the first sentence, if you postulate that the game setting is a medieval society, you already prevent any form of extrapolation. On the other hand a medieval society does not have to deal with monsters or magic, so the premise is flawed.

[ryu]

Also, this is a medieval society. Ricardo hasn't written about comparative advantage and gains from trade. There's not really any compelling reason to believe Wizards would chose to improve society by making trade easier, rather than more obvious routes like "preventing the zombie apocalypse" or "killing rampaging dragons".

Adventurer go and murder thing now is the least efficient way of dealing with the zombie apocalypse. It's a purely reactive solution. Considering the sheer number of low level people that will quickly get thrown into the grinder without some method of defense, they're at least gonna take steps as basic as destroying corpses in such a manner that they can't easily be made undead, and ideally some low mid cleric mojo for a much more permanent solution. I would also be very careful with words like apocalypse from that kinda scale. It suggests the populace is so completely incompetent as to have no survival instinct at all. It's the difference between defending a society and preventing a bunch of lemmings from killing themselves.

[Jon_Dahl]

In 3e, magic items need to be available for sale. Otherwise, Fighters suck even harder than they do already, and nobody wants that. If you're asking a fluff question (players pick it up now v after a timeskip), I don't really care. Probably just have more obscure stuff in larger cities, and some regional availability.

No. I ban magic item business completely and all the best stuff that the PCs find go perfectly with the party fighter. Try it, works great!

[ryu]

No. I ban magic item business completely and all the best stuff that the PCs find go perfectly with the party fighter. Try it, works great!

At that point the immediate logical question becomes: Why the hell are we bringing a fighter? He was bad enough when he took a loot share without pulling his weight. Now you tell me we don't even get loot? The ostensible reason most people adventure? Nope. No sale.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No. I ban magic item business completely and all the best stuff that the PCs find go perfectly with the party fighter. Try it, works great!

Dear gods please tell me this is sarcasm?

How can you possibly justify that in-game?

[Jon_Dahl]

Dear gods please tell me this is sarcasm?

How can you possibly justify that in-game?

Very easily.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Very easily.

Care to elaborate?

[Jon_Dahl]

Care to elaborate?

The clerics of the god of magic forbid everything that might trivialize magic. They have the political power to pull that off.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The clerics of the god of magic forbid everything that might trivialize magic. They have the political power to pull that off.

That's a cute idea but it doesn't work. That just puts magic item dealing on the black market and unless all your gods have some sort of non-interference agreement the gods of commerce and trade would quite readily put their own productions on said black market.

It's basic economics; there is a demand, there is a supply, -someone- is going try and make a profit by bridging the two.

Unless all your players' characters are upstanding, law-abiding types, it shouldn't be impossible to find such a black market to buy these things on, albeit at an inflated price.

[Jon_Dahl]

That's a cute idea but it doesn't work. That just puts magic item dealing on the black market and unless all your gods have some sort of non-interference agreement the gods of commerce and trade would quite readily put their own productions on said black market.

It's basic economics; there is a demand, there is a supply, -someone- is going try and make a profit by bridging the two.

Unless all your players' characters are upstanding, law-abiding types, it shouldn't be impossible to find such a black market to buy these things on, albeit at an inflated price.

There's black market, of course, but the PCs would actually have to do something in order to find the black market. They haven't done anything.

[Andezzar]

Also what's to prevent a PC from crafting whatever he or his group wants? if the Magic police comes knocking, that is more resources for the crafting.

[zergling.exe]

Also what's to prevent a PC from crafting whatever he or his group wants? if the Magic police comes knocking, that is more resources for the crafting.

If by 'Magic police' you mean 'the deity's infinite Solars' then the PC is just wished to an extraplanar courtroom for a trial before the god directly of course (with a full entourage of additional Solars prepared to deal with any hostile actions or escape attempts with additional wishes).

[Jon_Dahl]

Also what's to prevent a PC from crafting whatever he or his group wants? if the Magic police comes knocking, that is more resources for the crafting.

Nothing, especially since they are crafting things for themselves and not for selling (Right?). But let me say something first:
For instance, the material costs for a longsword +1 are about 1500 gp, right? Sorry if my memory fails me... This means an eyestalk of a 1000-year-old beholder, testicles of a Lawful Good troll with a pure heart, a large bundle of hair of a master gladiator, oil from Yhasdnsa tree that only grows in Limbo and a masterwork sword forged by the seventh daughter of a seventh son.

Even if the players have the money to buy the materials, it doesn't mean that they are available... for the next year or two. I understand how free market works, but if Donald Trump wanted to buy albino baby elephant's tusks, a page from an early Renaissance Canterbury Tales, a codpiece signed by LeBron James with his own blood... I'm not 100% sure if he could. Or could he?

This is how magic items in my game works. Feel free to ask more.

[dascarletm]

Don't you think people with INT in their 20s would come up with such ideas about trade?

Nope, I don't think they would.

[Coidzor]

Also, this is a medieval society. Ricardo hasn't written about comparative advantage and gains from trade. There's not really any compelling reason to believe Wizards would chose to improve society by making trade easier, rather than more obvious routes like "preventing the zombie apocalypse" or "killing rampaging dragons".

It's more of a pastiche that runs the gamut from what the Greeks of Antiquity thought their ancestors in Iron and Bronze Age Greece were like all the way up to the Late Renaissance/Early Modern Period.

Admittedly, Adam Smith's advancement/creation of economic theory is more likely to have either already been covered by an NPC in setting or to first get covered by a PC.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's black market, of course, but the PCs would actually have to do something in order to find the black market. They haven't done anything.

Have you ever so much as hinted that this was a possibility? or are you hoping it just won't come up? I know I'd certainly jump at the chance to purchase magical gear, no matter how unsavory the people I had to deal with, unless this happened to be the campaign I decided to roll a paladin and maybe even then in a more confiscatory, deep-cover cop kind of way.


Nothing, especially since they are crafting things for themselves and not for selling (Right?). But let me say something first:
For instance, the material costs for a longsword +1 are about 1500 gp, right? Sorry if my memory fails me... This means an eyestalk for a 1000-year-old beholder, testicles of a Lawful Good troll with a pure heart, a large bundle of hair of a master gladiator, oil from Yhasdnsa tree that only grows in Limbo and a masterwork sword forged by the seventh daughter of a seventh son.

Even if the players have the money to buy the materials, it doesn't mean that they are available... for the next year or two. I understand how free market works, but if Donald Trump wanted to buy albino baby elephant's tusks, a page from an early Renaissance Canterbury Tales, a codpiece signed by LeBron James with his own blood... I'm not 100% sure if he could. Or could he?

This is how magic items in my game works. Feel free to ask more.

A) It's only 1000gp for the supplies to make a masterwork sword into a +1.

B) Yes, Trump or anyone else in his income bracket has the resources to -find- whatever they can think of in fairly short order as long as it's something that actually exists. That goes back to the more traditional, real-life addage that money is power. Such esoteric things wouldn't have set prices, of course, and deals would have to be struck that might make -getting- those things take a while but they very much could be had.

C) Letting a player take an item crafting feat and then refusing to let him use it or making it so onerous to use that it may as well be impossible is rather unsporting. Would you let a fighter take exotic weapon proficiency for a spiked chain and then tell him that no one in the region has one for sale?

[Lycanthrope13]

An old DM of mine had an approach that I really liked. Basic enhancements up to +3 and stuff like keen, (local nuisance)-bane, and elemental resistance were fairly common. Anything granting ability bonuses, elemental damage, or spells/day was harder to come by. If you wanted a goblinbane battleaxe, no problem. If you wanted a flaming burst greatsword, it basically became a mini quest to find who had one or who was willing to make you one. I really liked the dynamic of powerful magic items being "behind the counter" items where you had to know a guy who knows a guy just to see it.

[Necroticplague]

C) Letting a player take an item crafting feat and then refusing to let him use it or making it so onerous to use that it may as well be impossible is rather unsporting. Would you let a fighter take exotic weapon proficiency for a spiked chain and then tell him that no one in the region has one for sale?

To be fair, if any crafting is gonna have me jump through this many hoops, I'm not gonna take a feat to craft. I'm gonna use the rules for crafting without feats using the rules in DMG 2 (Bonded Magic Items). Sure, they involve jumping through hoops, but it's gonna seem trivial if I already have to jump through this many.

[dascarletm]

To be fair, if any crafting is gonna have me jump through this many hoops, I'm not gonna take a feat to craft. I'm gonna use the rules for crafting without feats using the rules in DMG 2 (Bonded Magic Items). Sure, they involve jumping through hoops, but it's gonna seem trivial if I already have to jump through this many.

The answer is obviously that we'll have to add hoops to jump through for that! :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

The answer is obviously that we'll have to add hoops to jump through for that! :smalltongue:

Hope you can afford the Forge Hoop feat.

[Jon_Dahl]

C) Letting a player take an item crafting feat and then refusing to let him use it or making it so onerous to use that it may as well be impossible is rather unsporting. Would you let a fighter take exotic weapon proficiency for a spiked chain and then tell him that no one in the region has one for sale?

I see the character sheets before the characters enter the play, so I would mention how things work in my game. I'm Jon_Dahl, not Jon_****.

[The Glyphstone]

If your shop isn't using divinations to know what to make and have it ready before the customer asks for it, it's been put out of business by the shops that do.

This is honestly the first time I've ever seen this suggested, and it makes a scary amount of sense.

[ryu]

This is honestly the first time I've ever seen this suggested, and it makes a scary amount of sense.

''I want a +6 sword and I want it finished yesterday.''

''Already done sir.''

[Kelb_Panthera]

I see the character sheets before the characters enter the play, so I would mention how things work in my game. I'm Jon_Dahl, not Jon_****.

Fair enough but you see this thing done wrong too often to take it as a given.

[Jon_Dahl]

Have you ever so much as hinted that this was a possibility? or are you hoping it just won't come up? I know I'd certainly jump at the chance to purchase magical gear, no matter how unsavory the people I had to deal with, unless this happened to be the campaign I decided to roll a paladin and maybe even then in a more confiscatory, deep-cover cop kind of way.


I'm sorry, I overlooked this question by accident. No, I have not hinted, and I never will. I don't want magic marts in game, but I will tell you what I have offered:
1. The players have visited the Arabic region of the campaign world a couple of times. The magic mart business is thriving there, they even have discounts and special offers etc. The players have bought lots of stuff, but they haven't stayed in the Arab lands.
2. The PCs belong to a guild that permits limited trade of magical items. And by trading I mean that you trade an item(s) for another item(s). Some gold may be used to sweeten deals. The selection is extremely limited but the items are pretty useful but not that op. Recently the PCs were offered a chance to buy a Wand of Owl's Wisdom, and they didn't buy that one regardless of the fact that they have a cleric in the group without any enchantment bonus to the wisdom.
3. Some random NPCs, creatures and dragons show up randomly to offer deals.

[Andezzar]

1. The players have visited the Arabic region of the campaign world a couple of times. The magic mart business is thriving there, they even have discounts and special offers etc. The players have bought lots of stuff, but they haven't stayed in the Arab lands.What would you do if your players started to set up a magic item import business instead of "proper" adventuring?


2. The PCs belong to a guild that permits limited trade of magical items. And by trading I mean that you trade an item(s) for another item(s). Some gold may be used to sweeten deals. The selection is extremely limited but the items are pretty useful but not that op.What stock items come even close to the OPness of tier 1 casters?

Recently the PCs were offered a chance to buy a Wand of Owl's Wisdom, and they didn't buy that one regardless of the fact that they have a cleric in the group without any enchantment bonus to the wisdom.A wand with the + attribute spells is not a good investment, especially for casters. One of the main advantages of higher attributes, more spells per day, is not granted by casting the spell. I bet the cleric would have chosen differently if it were a periapt of wisdom.

[Jon_Dahl]

What would you do if your players started to set up a magic item import business instead of "proper" adventuring?

NPC cleric terrorist attacks.



A wand with the + attribute spells is not a good investment, especially for casters. One of the main advantages of higher attributes, more spells per day, is not granted by casting the spell. I bet the cleric would have chosen differently if it were a periapt of wisdom.

Yeah, but the cleric already has an amulet of health. Of course he could have taken the periapt and given the amulet of health to his comrades, buuuuut... I did it like this.

[Andezzar]

NPC cleric terrorist attacks.Which clerics? and why wouldn't the clerics in the magic mart supporting lands help the PCs?

[Jon_Dahl]

Which clerics? and why wouldn't the clerics in the magic mart supporting lands help the PCs?

The cleric of the god of magic.
The Arab clerics don't care about the crazy things that the pale guys do in some faraway land. If they want to do business, the doors of their tents are open.

[Andezzar]

So there is no trade god, no creation god? Also why would a god of magic oppose the creation of magic items?

[Jon_Dahl]

So there is no trade god, no creation god? Also why would a god of magic oppose the creation of magic items?

Trade god is weaker than the god of magic and they have a deal. Having the deal with the god of magic is better for the trade overall. Going against the god of magic would open up a new trade - the trade of magic items - but it's not worth it.

The god of magic opposes anything that might trivialize magic. Magic must always be special, the most special thing you can have. It cannot be something that you can sell and buy.

Edit: I read you wrong. He doesn't oppose the creation of magic items. He endorses it.

[Andezzar]

If the god of magic endorses the creation of magic items, why do you put additional hindrances on the creation of magic items for the PCs?

[Jon_Dahl]

If the god of magic endorses the creation of magic items, why do you put additional hindrances on the creation of magic items for the PCs?

There are no additional hindrances. Like it was said, the material cost of a longsword +1 is 1000 gp (+mw cost). I don't want to re-adjust the magic item prices for my game.

[Andezzar]

You did however say that the materials aren't as available as they should be:

For instance, the material costs for a longsword +1 are about 1500 gp, right? Sorry if my memory fails me... This means an eyestalk of a 1000-year-old beholder, testicles of a Lawful Good troll with a pure heart, a large bundle of hair of a master gladiator, oil from Yhasdnsa tree that only grows in Limbo and a masterwork sword forged by the seventh daughter of a seventh son.

Even if the players have the money to buy the materials, it doesn't mean that they are available... for the next year or two.I call that additional hindrance.

[Jon_Dahl]

You did however say that the materials aren't as available as they should be:
I call that additional hindrance.

It's not the god's fault. It's just how things work. He had no business in deciding how magic item creation works just like Gruumsh couldn't decide that orcs are 10 feet tall and have adamantine skin. If god's could've had more leverage, the world would be drastically different.

[Necroticplague]

It's not the god's fault. It's just how things work. He had no business in deciding how magic item creation works just like Gruumsh couldn't decide that orcs are 10 feet tall and have adamantine skin. If god's could've had more leverage, the world would be drastically different.
That's not relevant. It is in additional hindrance, source of the problem be darned.

And either way, it's decided by you in the first place. You just as easily could have decided that the materials to make the sword are 1000 GP of "misc." that you can buy at any sufficiently big open market, instead of ungodly annoying things to get that they are.

[Andezzar]

The gods may not have an influence but you as a DM have. PCs need raw materials worth 1k gp to upgrade a MW weapon to a magical one. Unless there is a single exotic material costing more than 800 gp in the recipe, the materials should be available in any small town. If the recipe requires many different materials of similar worth you might get them in even smaller settlements.
Even the required materials for a +10 weapon should be available in a metropolis, unless you require a single material worth more than 100k gp.

So unless you change the rules, the PCs should have the required materials available to them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The cleric of the god of magic.
The Arab clerics don't care about the crazy things that the pale guys do in some faraway land. If they want to do business, the doors of their tents are open.

I doubt your players would think of this but what happens if they deliberately spark-off a crusade? The Arab-like foes have ready access to magical equipment and the local side doesn't. They'd stand virtually no chance unless the god of magic relaxed his policy and arresting the trade of magic goods in a post-war setting would be difficult even for a powerful church.

Also, do the Arab-style people have different gods or something?

[Jon_Dahl]

I doubt your players would think of this but what happens if they deliberately spark-off a crusade? The Arab-like foes have ready access to magical equipment and the local side doesn't. They'd stand virtually no chance unless the god of magic relaxed his policy and arresting the trade of magic goods in a post-war setting would be difficult even for a powerful church.

Also, do the Arab-style people have different gods or something?

A good question. The Arab-like people are highly decentralized, essentially chaotic neutral and their numbers are few. Ironically, the most powerful mages still live in the Europe-like world and as you know, guys with the best magic items usually can't beat the best wizards. All in all, it would be a truly terrifying war with considerable chances for an apocalypse.

The Arab-like folk mostly have different gods. They share some gods but their names different and they are worshipped a bit differently so it's not obvious.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A good question. The Arab-like people are highly decentralized, essentially chaotic neutral and their numbers are few. Ironically, the most powerful mages still live in the Europe-like world and as you know, guys with the best magic items usually can't beat the best wizards. All in all, it would be a truly terrifying war with considerable chances for an apocalypse.

It's often shocking how quick such groups can come together out of necessity and while it's true that skilled mage > WBL there are -very- few mages in a world, typically. The lower population on the desert side does even things out a bit though. It strikes me as a tad odd that they're not more powerful or influential with them bandying magic items about freely, however.


The Arab-like folk mostly have different gods. They share some gods but their names different and they are worshipped a bit differently so it's not obvious.

That's enough to justify a crusade right there. Especially since the god of magic for the pseudo-european side and the god(s) of magic on the arab-like side have mutually incompatible views on how magic should be treated.

Nevermind the magic item availability thing, that just sounds like a solid direction to take a campaign for the fun of it. I do like a good war, at least in my fantasy games. Being able to loot the gear off of a people with good magic and/or raid their supply lines for goodies is just icing on the military cake.