What is the roleplay justification for wizard's free spells per level?

[magicalmagicman]

I get it that they learn new spells through adventuring, experience, and minor experimentation, but what about the spellbook scribing costs?

If it takes 100gp of magical ink to write down spells on a piece of paper, random tokens like rocks and wooden boards, how does the wizard scribe 2 spells for free in his spellbook for free? Where did he get the ink?

Oh and why does he require 100gp if he is etching it on some talisman or rock? How about sand? If he writes his spell on a beach with a stick, will that still cost 100gp?

If its a strictly mechanical non-roleplay balance issue I understand, but before I jump to conclusions and argue with my roleplay heavy DM that primal/savage wizards should be able to carve their spells for free on totem poles, I'd like your opinions on the matter.

1. What makes level up spells free to write down in spellbooks?
2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?
3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.

edit:
4. Copying an existing spellbook takes half the time and half the gp. WHY??? Writing a spell you prepared in your head is 100gp, so why is copying an existing spellbook 50gp? How does "easier" translate to half the gp? half the ink?
5. Boccob's Blessed Book ignores all scribing costs!

[Necroticplague]

1. What makes level up spells free to write down in spellbooks?
2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?
3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.

1. Because gameplay wise, not getting a darn thing when you level up is dissipating as heck.
2. Because even if you aren't using ink, you need similar exotic ingredient for your spell-book equivalent. Simply writing down a spell in normal ink won't work (normal ink does not cost that much). Similarly, even if you're writing in something other than a book, you still use up something. Maybe your engravings are made with a very soft alchemical metal that wears away as it carves, leaving the resulting etchings actually in color. Even if you do the Inca thing of you're writing being a series of knots tied in strings, you might need to dip your 'spellstrings' in specially-treated chemicals.

Note that an official ACF that replaces the spellbook entirely with just memorizing the spells still requires gold to learn, in the form of special incense to burn while you meditate.
3. Like I've said above, there's nothing specific about it. It's intentionally abstract. The only real requirement is that it's used up in the 'writing', it's somehow distinct from similar objects, and it's expensive. I tend to go for special alchemically-treated versions of normal writing materials, myself. But being made out of rare plants, or worked with special tools that only work once, are also equally valid. So you may have to specially anoint the knives used for the etchings after each spell, or rare ink for spell-tattoos.

[kkplx]

There's no bulletproof explanation. It's a balance decision.

Learning new spells and writing them down to expand your repertoire has a cost.
You get 2 spells/level free (except for the space they eat up in your spellbook), the rest cost you money.

How you want to fluff the nature of the cost to make it similar to the abstract GP value is up to you or the DM - probably some sort of powder for coloration, permanency of the edgings, etc.
I'd say it is reasonable to assume that you as the wizard are the one creating the specific ink/wood/whatever-mixture to add known spells to your spellbook, talisman collection etc.

[Crake]

Note that an official ACF that replaces the spellbook entirely with just memorizing the spells still requires gold to learn, in the form of special incense to burn while you meditate.

If you're referring to eidetic wizard, that's dragon magazine material, which I wouldn't exactly call official, being second party and all.

[Faily]

I usually assume it requires ink, paper, whatever magical dust or something they need to add it to their spellbook, but it's just kind of the type that they've slowly kept a steady supply of (as in keeping up the inventory of their low-cost material components) that it's not something worth tracking. Kind of like some tables I know play with "real money" and "silly money". Real Money is what you use for paying for expensive things, like expensive tools, weapons, armor, magic items, that sort, while Silly Money is the money that covers drinks and food and other less important things.


If you're referring to eidetic wizard, that's dragon magazine material, which I wouldn't exactly call official, being second party and all.

Actually, Dragon Magazine is first party. It says 100% Official Content and has the correct D&D logo.

[Necroticplague]

If you're referring to eidetic wizard, that's dragon magazine material, which I wouldn't exactly call official, being second party and all.
The fact it's second party makes it official. Third party and homebrew is unofficial, first and second party are official.

Actually, Dragon Magazine is first party. It says 100% Official Content and has the correct D&D logo.
Actually, it's second party. Published by Paizo, but given official status by WoTC.

[KillianHawkeye]

Guys, please stop. We, the consumers, are the second party. Anything not published by WotC or made for your games yourself is produced by a third party.

[johnbragg]

I get it that they learn new spells through adventuring, experience, and minor experimentation, but what about the spellbook scribing costs?

If it takes 100gp of magical ink to write down spells on a piece of paper, random tokens like rocks and wooden boards, how does the wizard scribe 2 spells for free in his spellbook for free? Where did he get the ink?

I'd rule that just as he assembled the knowledge in dibs and dabs and fits and starts over the course of gaining the level, he does the same with the ink/sacred herbs/whatever. You can't scribe a magic spell with the D&D equivalent of a Sharpie on posterboard, ya gotta have some pizzazz about it. If you are going to use a sharpie and ordinary posterboard, then you have to pay the cost in sweat--maybe instead of just drawing the words and figures, you have to create them using dots like in a pointillist painting. Arcane magic isn't easy, it's arcane and mysterious and stuff.

"Where did he get the ink?" MAybe she runs a kettle every day that she's covered in mystic runes that distill magic out of the ether, and at sunset she pours the 5 drops of concentrated Quintessence into a jar, and then mixes that with ordinary ink when she needs it.

Maybe she draws a dab of her blood every day, says a cantrip over it and blends it into a brew that she cooks down into an oil.

MAybe she collects obscure herbs and feathers.


Oh and why does he require 100gp if he is etching it on some talisman or rock? How about sand? If he writes his spell on a beach with a stick, will that still cost 100gp?

It has to be some particular rock. Either some precious type of rock, or an ordinary rock that he or she has soaked in lavender for a full moon-cycle from full to full or something. Etching on sand, it's gotta be with wand-quality wood of some kind, not just some stick you filched off a kindling pile.

If its a strictly mechanical non-roleplay balance issue I understand, but before I jump to conclusions and argue with my roleplay heavy DM that primal/savage wizards should be able to carve their spells for free on totem poles, I'd like your opinions on the matter.

1. What makes level up spells free to write down in spellbooks?
2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?
3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.[/QUOTE]

1. Because it represents the completion of the research and practice and training and experimentation you've been doing in your downtime.
2. You don't need the 100gp for your levelling-up spells. PHB page 179, "Writing a NEw Spell Into A Spellbook" para 5

Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level. She simply adds these to her spellbook as part of her ongoing research.

"Why do you need the 100gp if you're not using ink" for your non-levelling up spells? Because magic ain't easy. You can pay the costs in time and sweat and patience (2 spells per level), or you can pay in straight cash for someone else's time and sweat and patience.

3. Entirely up to your DM.

If your DM is a roleplay heavy DM, come up with some elaborate, cool system for how you want savage wizard totem pole spellbooks to work. If he's a roleplay heavy DM, he'll either go for it, revise it himself, or give you revision instructions.

IF he says "No it's not in a book", he's not a roleplay heavy DM. He just has "I'm a roleplay-heavy GM" confused with "I like finding reasons to say no."

[johnbragg]

Guys, please stop. We, the consumers, are the second party. Anything not published by WotC or made for your games yourself is produced by a third party.

The OGL convention is WOTC is first party. Things produced with a direct contractual relationship to WOTC (Dragon content, a couple of settings licensed out by WOTC) are second party. Professionally produced OGL content is third party. Non-professionally produced content is homebrew.

There are GMs that use that as a standard for what to allow and not allow.

(I don't use that standard. I don't think it's a good standard. But it doesn't help anybody to muddy the waters of what those terms mean in a 3.5/PF context. And no, I'm not sure what you call it if a player wants to use 3rd party PAthfinder content in a 3.5 game.)

[noob]

Well you need costly inks for writing spells fast but when you research a new spell you spent a lot of time thinking to it and the process to find a new spell is not the same as the process to write down a spell you know and is much more time consuming(he basically do that in all his downtime) but less costly in resources.

[Gildedragon]

1. What makes level up spells free to write down in spellbooks?
2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?
3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.
1:You've distributed the cost of scribing the spells over the previous level; same as making money with Craft or Profession ignores the raw materials.
2:Because it's gotta cost something and it was either XP or GP. You need strong, hard woods that won't warp or inks that won't fade; and maybe a skilled craftsman for the tattoos.
3: Complete Mage has the rules for alternative spellbooks. The precise nature of the ink is irrelevant (though iirc there are certain magical inks that do stuff). I'd say an adequate craft check reduces the cost of the ink or raw materials in half.

[RoboEmperor]

Grab craft Ink and profession Pigment Gathering. It will now take you 50gp worth of weeks to gather enough ink for 1 spell level. which is like 5 weeks because profession is horrible.

You could get away with Craft Alchemy and profession Magical Material Gathering.

I personally think the free spells were a mechanic-breaking thing for the player's benefit because not getting new spells when you level up is bad.

[magicalmagicman]

Grab craft Ink and profession Pigment Gathering. It will now take you 50gp worth of weeks to gather enough ink for 1 spell level. which is like 5 weeks because profession is horrible.

You could get away with Craft Alchemy and profession Magical Material Gathering.

I personally think the free spells were a mechanic-breaking thing for the player's benefit because not getting new spells when you level up is bad.

I think there's no harm in crafting 100gp of something per spell level. Like craft scultping 100gp worth to scribe magic missile onto a rock.

[KillianHawkeye]

The OGL convention is WOTC is first party. Things produced with a direct contractual relationship to WOTC (Dragon content, a couple of settings licensed out by WOTC) are second party. Professionally produced OGL content is third party. Non-professionally produced content is homebrew.

Really? Because the terms "first party", "second party", "third party", and "homebrew" aren't found anywhere in the OGL document, nor in the official OGL FAQ page on the Wizards of the Coast website.

[tsj]

I think the wizard and indeed all casting classes should learn spells for free but learn a lot less if them and wizards shouldn't learn more spells than those granted by level up or feats

[Darth Ultron]

1. What makes level up spells free to write down in spellbooks?
2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?
3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.

1.The character is assumed to save and spend the money.

2.You need to ''record'' the spell formula somehow. It does not need to be ''ink'', but it is something that costs the listed amount.

3.It's special and not specific.

[magicalmagicman]

Added a 4th question. I'd like to hear all your opinions on that one too!

4. Copying an existing spellbook takes half the time and half the gp. WHY??? Writing a spell you prepared in your head is 100gp, so why is copying an existing spellbook 50gp? How does "easier" translate to half the gp? half the ink?

[InvisibleBison]

Added a 4th question. I'd like to hear all your opinions on that one too!

4. Copying an existing spellbook takes half the time and half the gp. WHY??? Writing a spell you prepared in your head is 100gp, so why is copying an existing spellbook 50gp? How does "easier" translate to half the gp? half the ink?

I don't see where you're getting this from. The rules on page 179 of the Player's Handbook say that writing a spell into your spellbook from any source - be it a prepared spell, a scroll, or another spellbook - costs 100 gp per page. It also says that wizards typically charge each other 50xspell level gp to copy a spell out of their spell book, but that's in addition to the cost of scribing the spell. Am I missing something? Where did you find this existing spellbook discount?

[johnbragg]

I don't see where you're getting this from. The rules on page 179 of the Player's Handbook say that writing a spell into your spellbook from any source - be it a prepared spell, a scroll, or another spellbook - costs 100 gp per page. It also says that wizards typically charge each other 50xspell level gp to copy a spell out of their spell book, but that's in addition to the cost of scribing the spell. Am I missing something? Where did you find this existing spellbook discount?

PAge 179, "Replacing and Copying a Spellbook" para 2

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedures as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirements and cost per page are halved.

I had never noticed that before either. I can't really think of an in-game reason for the volume discount--if anything, I could see applying the magic item cost/creation rules to copying a whole spellbook as an all-or-nothing project, as if you were scribing a scroll of ALL TEH SPELLZ.

[Faily]

It's the cost of the scissors, staples and glue you use to cut out the pages you want and add them to your book? :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Added a 4th question. I'd like to hear all your opinions on that one too!

4. Copying an existing spellbook takes half the time and half the gp. WHY??? Writing a spell you prepared in your head is 100gp, so why is copying an existing spellbook 50gp? How does "easier" translate to half the gp? half the ink?

Because you have different methods for copying something than making it yourself. When you write it down, you might need to use alchemically treated inks (or one made from rare plants). If you're just copying a spellbook, you might just need some kind of alchemical carbon paper, maybe special charcoal for rubbing. These "copying materials" are cheaper than the "writing materials".


Also, side note, I just thought of a possibility relating to the "savage wizard carving for free" thing: It's possible that while the act of carving a spell into a "spell totem" doesn't cost anything but time, wood capable of being proper spell-totem material is rare and expensive (or treating wood to be able to be such takes some expensive components). So an uncarved chunk of proper totem-wood is the same as a normal wizard just having a stock of magical ink built up.

[Judge_Worm]

I always thought the wizard's spellbook already had all their free spells in it. They just couldn't cast them yet.

[johnbragg]

Because you have different methods for copying something than making it yourself. When you write it down, you might need to use alchemically treated inks (or one made from rare plants). If you're just copying a spellbook, you might just need some kind of alchemical carbon paper, maybe special charcoal for rubbing. These "copying materials" are cheaper than the "writing materials".

But that's not the discount. If you copy sleep, magic missile, charm person, burning hands and floating disc from 5 different scrolls, the copying costs 5 x 100 gp. But if you copy a spellbook with those 5 spells, the cost is halved.

[Necroticplague]

But that's not the discount. If you copy sleep, magic missile, charm person, burning hands and floating disc from 5 different scrolls, the copying costs 5 x 100 gp. But if you copy a spellbook with those 5 spells, the cost is halved.

Scrolls and spellbooks aren't the same thing. The method for copying from a spellbook doesn't work for copying from a scroll. This is indicated, at a minimum, by the fact you need to write it down in your spellbook at all if you have a scroll, and the fact scrolls are more expensive to write.

[Prime32]

I get it that they learn new spells through adventuring, experience, and minor experimentation, but what about the spellbook scribing costs?

If it takes 100gp of magical ink to write down spells on a piece of paper, random tokens like rocks and wooden boards, how does the wizard scribe 2 spells for free in his spellbook for free? Where did he get the ink?

Oh and why does he require 100gp if he is etching it on some talisman or rock? How about sand? If he writes his spell on a beach with a stick, will that still cost 100gp?

If its a strictly mechanical non-roleplay balance issue I understand, but before I jump to conclusions and argue with my roleplay heavy DM that primal/savage wizards should be able to carve their spells for free on totem poles, I'd like your opinions on the matter.

1. What makes level up spells free to write down in spellbooks?
2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?
3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.

edit:
4. Copying an existing spellbook takes half the time and half the gp. WHY??? Writing a spell you prepared in your head is 100gp, so why is copying an existing spellbook 50gp? How does "easier" translate to half the gp? half the ink?
They pull the materials out of their Spell Component Pouch.

[johnbragg]

Scrolls and spellbooks aren't the same thing. The method for copying from a spellbook doesn't work for copying from a scroll.

Um, yes it does.


This is indicated, at a minimum, by the fact you need to write it down in your spellbook at all if you have a scroll, and the fact scrolls are more expensive to write.

You also need to "write it down in your spellbook" if you're copying from someone else's spellbook.

The only condition that's different is if you're copying an entire spellbook. Which is very strange.

[Xar Zarath]

...The only condition that's different is if you're copying an entire spellbook. Which is very strange.

I'm not so sure as to the mechanics but fluff wise I think I can give at least my own 2cp on the matter.

For a scroll, you are writing down the whole spell with the trigger phrase involved to invoke the magic necessary. You need all the relevant words of power as well as the materials to bind the magic to the scroll for it to work.

Copying a spellbook is cheaper and easier because someone has already written down the words, formulae and calculations involved in the spell. All you need is the writing materials and you're good to go. You don't need to research the spell by yourself, wasting time/money/whatever, instead here is the spell, researched and written down by another for your convenience.
Therefore copying it is cheaper and easier. All you have to do is get your stuff and copy word for word/rune for rune, the spell.

[icefractal]

I ran into this question too, and the related one of spell research. My answer? Magic dust.

More academically, "unactivated thaumic volatile matter", but most people do call it "magic dust". Refined from certain rare substances, or from breaking down magic items, it's a fine, powdery substance that's extremely sensitive to magic energies, so much so that it can be ignited by going through the motions of casting, without actually using a spell slot. From the patterns the dust makes as it burns, an experienced mage can tell what the spell would have done if it had really been cast.

Now if you've done any coding, the difference this makes to spell research is obvious. Consider trying to write a new program, but you're only allowed to compile it after a 9+ hour delay, you only get to run it 3-4 times a day, and any error when running it could set your house on fire. That's what spell research without magic dust is like.

So that's spell research, but why does spell copying require magic dust? Because it's not just copying. If it were, then any method would work, including that cantrip which copies pages in seconds. A given Wizard's spells are customized to the way that mage's mind works. So copying one is more like decompile+adjust+recompile than a simple duplication, and therefore requires magic dust if you want to do it without spending weeks and maybe accidentally turning your apprentice into stone.

As a house-rule to support this, I do allow spell copying and research without any material cost - it just takes a lot longer and has a chance of hitting you with various effects (of the same magnitude as the spell) during the process. A boon for Elves and Elans, setting-wise, but wouldn't apply at char-gen any more than "I spent 1000 years as a bartender, so I have an extra 10 million gp to start with" would.

So in that context, the free spells from leveling-up are ones that you didn't need magic dust for - either because you learned them the slow way over the course of the level, or because you got a sudden flash of inspiration and figured them out on the first few tries.

[zergling.exe]

I'm not so sure as to the mechanics but fluff wise I think I can give at least my own 2cp on the matter.

For a scroll, you are writing down the whole spell with the trigger phrase involved to invoke the magic necessary. You need all the relevant words of power as well as the materials to bind the magic to the scroll for it to work.

Copying a spellbook is cheaper and easier because someone has already written down the words, formulae and calculations involved in the spell. All you need is the writing materials and you're good to go. You don't need to research the spell by yourself, wasting time/money/whatever, instead here is the spell, researched and written down by another for your convenience.
Therefore copying it is cheaper and easier. All you have to do is get your stuff and copy word for word/rune for rune, the spell.

Only copy an existing spellbook costs half. Any other method of putting spells into a spellbook is 100gp per page. Lost spellbook but have the spell prepared? 100gp per page. Have a scroll of it? 100gp per page. Borrowing another's spellbook? 100gp per page. Duplicating your spellbook? 50gp per page.

Even if it's a scroll you made, it's 100gp per page. It seems rather bizzare that one (and only one) method gives you half cost, despite it not reducing the special materials required in any way.

[shaikujin]

Just my rationale:

1. What makes level up spells free to write down in spellbooks?

The new spells aren't exactly resource free. It's just subsumed into the abstract time and resources spent while you are adventuring/gaining XP.

You've basically, by virtue of experience, squeezed out extra ink from your inkpot. (not spilling or wasting as much, reusing dried ink, less errors, don't dot your "i"s). There's of course, a limit to how much ink you can save/recycle. Normally just enough for 2 spells. Folks with special talents (read certain feats/class abilities), can scrounge up even more savings.

Terrible analogy - as a junior programmer, you write code fragments or libraries during coffee/toilet breaks while using your workstation. The time and cost you spent doing this a little bit everyday wouldn't cost the company too much time or CPU resources and is negligible. Also, this can be considered as not having an opportunity cost (it doesn't eat into your time moonlighting as a waiter and earning 100 gp)

By the time you are promoted to senior programmer (level-up), you've written enough code fragments to be compiled into a fully working program.



2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?

100 gp is taken as the standard cost. It can be 100 gp of angel tears or demon blood or magical cow dung. Any deviation from this is due to special situations, such as ability to save ink mentioned above.

Analogy - If you need to write an entire program, this is the normal time and CPU resources required. Because the character now needs to devote a chuck of consecutive hours, he cannot moonlight as a waiter.



3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.

Same type of abstract 100 gp special ink is used for "free" spells and extra spells.



edit:
4. Copying an existing spellbook takes half the time and half the gp. WHY??? Writing a spell you prepared in your head is 100gp, so why is copying an existing spellbook 50gp? How does "easier" translate to half the gp? half the ink?

Writing prepared spells into spellbook - analogy:
Try to memorize all the posts in this thread. Then re-write every single word from memory. Say this takes 24 hours and 100 gp. This takes into account of ink drying up during the 24 hours, wasted ink from minor mistakes that you have to write over etc

Copying from your original spellbook - analogy:
Instead of reconstructing from memory, you have this thread open on your screen. Then write out every word with the benefit of having the thread open on your screen as a reference. Definitely much easier and faster. Less time required, less dried ink, less waste on mistakes. So half the time and half the price.

Copying from a scroll - analogy:
You are given a compiled code that anyone with some skills can execute by pressing a button (or triggering the activation phrase for example). You need to re-construct the source code and write it into your spell book. Good thing you understand the compiled code, otherwise it'll take longer. But due to the extra effort required, there's no savings in time or ink wastage. You are lucky it doesn't take more time than reconstructing from memory.

Copying from a borrowed spellbook - analogy:
Gawds, that idiot wrote his sourcecode in some form of Greek. Man, this is going to take time to translate and copy. Good thing I took a class in the same field, this will take maybe just twice as long as copying from my own spellbook (which is already written in English).



That should allow you to argue why you should get the free spells without costs.

Of course, if you are looking for ways to get all your spells for free, then that's a different question. Some cheese is required. Say Spellhoarding dragon that uses 100 gp gems (created by using shapesand).

[Necroticplague]

Um, yes it does. then why are there different mechanics for each? You're making assumptions about the text, then blaming the text when thy dont match up.



You also need to "write it down in your spellbook" if you're copying from someone else's spellbook. Because no two people write their spells down in the exact same way. So even if your looking at someone else's spellbook, and writing down based on what you see, you're still writing down something vastly different from what you're reading from. That's why you can't just pick up and use someone else's spellbook right away. If you master their spellbook (I think complete arcane is the source for it), then the book is as good as your own, then copying from it has he cost reduction. Because your can simply copy it perfectly and use it, instead of having to translate into your own notation.


The only condition that's different is if you're copying an entire spellbook. Which is very strange. false. The rules or duplicating a spellbook are based off the one for replacing a spellbook. Thus, like this rules, they certainly allow you to go spell by spell.

[johnbragg]

Just my rationale:

4. Copying an existing spellbook takes half the time and half the gp. WHY??? Writing a spell you prepared in your head is 100gp, so why is copying an existing spellbook 50gp? How does "easier" translate to half the gp? half the ink?

Copying from your original spellbook - analogy:
Instead of reconstructing from memory, you have this thread open on your screen. Then write out every word with the benefit of having the thread open on your screen as a reference. Definitely much easier and faster. Less time required, less dried ink, less waste on mistakes. So half the time and half the price.

That makes a ton of sense. Copying from anyone else's spellbook or scroll, you have to spend some time and energy getting inside their head, their thought processes, writing conventions, quirks, etc. If it's you, it's a breeze. If it's one author, it's relatively easy.


Copying from a scroll - analogy:
You are given a compiled code that anyone with some skills can execute by pressing a button (or triggering the activation phrase for example). You need to re-construct the source code and write it into your spell book. Good thing you understand the compiled code, otherwise it'll take longer. But due to the extra effort required, there's no savings in time or ink wastage. You are lucky it doesn't take more time than reconstructing from memory.

Copying from a borrowed spellbook - analogy:
Gawds, that idiot wrote his sourcecode in some form of Greek. Man, this is going to take time to translate and copy. Good thing I took a class in the same field, this will take maybe just twice as long as copying from my own spellbook (which is already written in English).


Getting into the head of a different author for N different spells would be a headache.

[johnbragg]

Scrolls and spellbooks aren't the same thing. The method for copying from a spellbook doesn't work for copying from a scroll. This is indicated, at a minimum, by the fact you need to write it down in your spellbook at all if you have a scroll, and the fact scrolls are more expensive to write.

Found my PHB again. So page 179.


Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll.
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane MAgical Writings above).

Do you have any text indicating different mechanics for copying from a scroll vs copying from someone else' spellbook? (Besides the different fee, 50 gp x SL for borrowing a spellbook vs 25 gp x SL x CL for a scroll?)

As people figured out over the last couple of days, there is a technical distinction between the spellbook and the wizards' spells known, which are the complete category of spells the wizard has either gotten by levelling or made the Spellcraft check to scribe into a spellbook at some point. (Arguably, our penniless 13th level wizard doesn't have to roll the Spellcraft checks to re-scribe spells he used to have in his spellbook. If she doesn't have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book." No Spellcraft check mentioned. Not 100% clear, because it doesn't say you DON'T need to.)

[Segev]

In order to justify "I leveled up; now there are two more spells in my spellbook," I typically treat the "two free spells" as being not actually new spells written in the book, but instead are a breakthrough in your understanding, scattered throughout your personal notes on existing spells and magical research in your spellbook. If you copy them into a new spellbook, obviously you'll actually take the time to transcribe the scattered notes, cross-references, and cryptic diagrams that remind you how to pull together a comprehend languages spell from a half-dozen other spells and arcane musings, but until you do, the free spells are things only you (or somebody who cracks your spellbook with the appropriate roll) can grasp.

Still probably consumes the requisite number of pages, just in terms of how many random notes pages you've got that ultimately amount to the spells in question.

[Necroticplague]

Found my PHB again. So page 179.



Do you have any text indicating different mechanics for copying from a scroll vs copying from someone else' spellbook? (Besides the different fee, 50 gp x SL for borrowing a spellbook vs 25 gp x SL x CL for a scroll?)

Well, the SRD section has at least one difference in the relevant section.

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
So there is some minor difference.

And of course, the biggest distinction comes from copying from someone else's spellbook vs. copying from your own spellbook, the latter of which is cheaper and faster, while the former isn't, for reasons I explained in my previous post.

[johnbragg]

then why are there different mechanics for each? You're making assumptions about the text, then blaming the text when thy dont match up.

There aren't. There are different list prices (25 gp x CL x SL vs 50 GP x SL), but the mechanic is the same. Spellcraft check DC = 15 + SL, spend a full day studying the spell. Pass the check, learn and copy the spell. Fail the check, nothing happens except you can't learn that spell this level. The. Same. Mechanic.

EDIT: The same mechanic for learning new spells. Which is usually, but not in this case, identical to scribing a spell into your spellbook. Our penniless 13th level wizard friend in the other thread doesn't need to learn a bunch of spells, he has already learned them (passed the Spellcraft DC for those spells). He just needs to prepare them from somewhere, and then scribe the spell into a new spellbook.

The distinction isn't spellbook vs scroll, it's new spells vs spells the wizard has learned in the past.



Because no two people write their spells down in the exact same way. So even if your looking at someone else's spellbook, and writing down based on what you see, you're still writing down something vastly different from what you're reading from. That's why you can't just pick up and use someone else's spellbook right away. If you master their spellbook (I think complete arcane is the source for it), then the book is as good as your own, then copying from it has he cost reduction. Because your can simply copy it perfectly and use it, instead of having to translate into your own notation.

You make a case that the PHB text Duplicating an existing spellbook should read Duplicating your existing spellbook or a spellbook you have mastered or some such. You're memorizing a spell you know, (from someone else's spellbook, with or without Spellcraft check) and then scribing the prepared spell in your new spellbook. That's why it's half the cost in time and effort--you're not *learning* new spells, after all.


false. The rules or duplicating a spellbook are based off the one for replacing a spellbook. Thus, like this rules, they certainly allow you to go spell by spell.

I think you're right here, at least for RAI.

[Necroticplague]

The distinction isn't spellbook vs scroll, Other than the "copying from a spellbook leaves the spellbook intact, copying from a scroll destroys the scroll's copy" thin, I can agree. Honestly, I'm somewhat confused as to how we ended up arguing this in the first place.


it's new spells vs spells the wizard has learned in the past.
Not quiet true. Even simply copying down a spell you have memorized is 100Xlevel GP, while copying it down from a spellbook who's notation you understand is a mere 50xlevel GP.



You make a case that the PHB text Duplicating an existing spellbook should read Duplicating your existing spellbook or a spellbook you have mastered or some such. You're memorizing a spell you know, (from someone else's spellbook, with or without Spellcraft check) and then scribing the prepared spell in your new spellbook. That's why it's half the cost in time and effort--you're not *learning* new spells, after all. It's not half because you already know the spell. In fact, by definition, if you don't have it in your spell book, you don't know the spell.

A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks. For sorcerers and bards, knowing a spell means having selected it when acquiring new spells as a benefit of level advancement.
It's half because when you have a spellbook that you know, you can cut corners to make an exact duplicate. Instead of having to go through the whole process of writing things down in your own notation (after making a spellcraft check or using read magic to understand it), you use an equivalent to carbon paper or charcoal rubbings to just duplicate it at lower cost (and more quickly). Even if you have the spell in your head, writing it down from scratch is 100Xspell level GP.

Of course, you could take the effort to master their spellbook, than you could make perfect copies of that and it would be the same as if it was your own. Because at that point, it is.



I think you're right here, at least for RAI.
Fortunately, I'm also right by RAW as well.



A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.
So, replacing a spellbook refers to writing a new spell to a spellbook (which obviously mention writing one spell at a time), and notes adding a singular spell, instead of a whole book at once. The rules for copying a spellbook refer back to the rules for replacing a spellbook.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, Dragon Magazine is first party. It says 100% Official Content and has the correct D&D logo.
^ Actually entirely false. It's licensed third party. It's not deemed first party content, and is general wonky as hell to boot, like KoK.


Actually, it's second party. Published by Paizo, but given official status by WoTC.

ARGH! No! That is not what that means! You are the second party, necroticplague! The second party is you.
http://i.imgur.com/lA8E2DU.gif

[Kurald Galain]

I always thought the wizard's spellbook already had all their free spells in it. They just couldn't cast them yet.

Yeah, this.

That the player hasn't picked them yet is a matter of gameplay convenience; in-character, the wizard graduated from his mentor (or university) with a big tome of spells for his further studies.

[Necroticplague]

^ Actually entirely false. It's licensed third party. It's not deemed first party content, and is general wonky as hell to boot, like KoK.


ARGH! No! That is not what that means! You are the second party, necroticplague! The second party is you.
http://i.imgur.com/lA8E2DU.gif

In game development and literary circles, the term "second party" has different meanings. In game development, the definition I've been using, I'm not anything, because I don't develop content. If I did, it would be independent development or homebrew.

Someone else put it fairly succinctly earlier:
"Things produced with a direct contractual relationship to WOTC (Dragon content, a couple of settings licensed out by WOTC) are second party. Professionally produced OGL content is third party. Non-professionally produced content is homebrew."
So that "licensed third party" is what second party means. Not made by WOTC, but licensed to be official dnd material.

[Gallowglass]

What's the role-play justification for the new feat that a fighter gets, or the new rogue talent that a thief gets or the new bard music the bard gets?

Do you make the fighter roleplay going to some fighter school and signing up for a fighter class to pick up weapon focus?

The role-play justification is the same for all of these things, the same as picking up the base number of new spells. It is assumed that the PC is intrinsically learning new things as they go, off-screen, through default levels of research and growth of skill.

The only difference is that the wizard has a built in system to "pay money to get more new class features" or to get new class features as part of a treasure horde, whereas all the other classes don't. If you really wanted to be fair, you could have fighters be able to buy martial scrolls that they could use to add a new feat above and beyond the feats they get per level. Or the Bard could pick up a songbook off of a dead Roper (along with 3d4 copper peices) that gives him a new bard song.

Come to think of it, whey CAN'T other classes other than wizard get extra class features through money and treasure? Why do wizards only get the nice things?

[Necroticplague]

Come to think of it, whey CAN'T other classes other than wizard get extra class features through money and treasure? Why do wizards only get the nice things?

Erudites and Archivists can. Arificers pretty much do it by default (their power comes from them making crap, which costs money). Sorcerors (and maybe other spontantous casters, not sure) can buy knowstones for more spells known.
And of course, all the mythic homebrew classes do this, but that's homebrew.

[Snowbluff]

In game development and literary circles, the term "second party" has different meanings. In game development, the definition I've been using, I'm not anything, because I don't develop content. If I did, it would be independent development or homebrew.


No, it's a term made up by a bunch of people who have no clue what a party is! Nothing about what you said is valid. In a transaction, the developer is WotC, or the "First Party." The purchaser is "Second Party." Everyone who is not a party to the above transaction is the "third party."

[johnbragg]

Other than the "copying from a spellbook leaves the spellbook intact, copying from a scroll destroys the scroll's copy" thin, I can agree. Honestly, I'm somewhat confused as to how we ended up arguing this in the first place.

I thought you said


Not quiet true. Even simply copying down a spell you have memorized is 100Xlevel GP, while copying it down from a spellbook who's notation you understand is a mere 50xlevel GP.

True. What I said was logical, but unsupported by text.


It's not half because you already know the spell. In fact, by definition, if you don't have it in your spell book, you don't know the spell.

To be super technical, it is in your spell book. The problem is you don't have access to your spellbook and need a substitute.


It's half because when you have a spellbook that you know, you can cut corners to make an exact duplicate. Instead of having to go through the whole process of writing things down in your own notation (after making a spellcraft check or using read magic to understand it), you use an equivalent to carbon paper or charcoal rubbings to just duplicate it at lower cost (and more quickly). Even if you have the spell in your head, writing it down from scratch is 100Xspell level GP.

I can't think of any other explanation for the halved cost except magic carbon paper.

[Faily]

@shaikujin

I love the idea of comparing wizards to code-monkeys. I think I need to explore this more in some future wizards I play. :smallbiggrin:



^ Actually entirely false. It's licensed third party. It's not deemed first party content, and is general wonky as hell to boot, like KoK.


ARGH! No! That is not what that means! You are the second party, necroticplague! The second party is you.


It is deemed first party content (and there's a lot of wonky stuff in other official content too, so that alone doesn't disqualify it).

Published by Paizo, yes, but it was written by WOTC writers, with content for D&D, as *the* magazine for D&D, officially recognized by WOTC for being their official magazine for all things D&D.

Dragon Magazine has 100% Official Content on its front page, with the D&D logo. So by every word of the definition OFFICIAL, it is officially D&D, according to WOTC who put the damn logo and disclaimer there. Paizo is simply their partner in the publishing of the magazine, but it was also sanctioned and stamped with the brand of OFFICIAL for being officially D&D.

[icefractal]

Come to think of it, whey CAN'T other classes other than wizard get extra class features through money and treasure? Why do wizards only get the nice things?An issue I've wanted to fix too - I thought it'd be fun to emphasize that "knowledge hunting" aspect more.

I came up with things for some characters:
Martial Maneuvers: From Bo9S, which already exist in scroll form. Most martial classes get semi-initiating (full IL, prepared is Warblade minus 1, recover is full-round to refresh all, none known to start with). Other classes are half IL.
Skills: Skill tricks can be learned from scrolls like maneuvers can.
Spells Known: Slower and more expensive than adding to a spellbook, but possible.
Feats: Can be learned through training, perhaps with a limit of 2x normal.

But I ran into a road-block with full-list casters like Clerics and Druids. They already get everything known automatically! And they're already powerful enough classes that I don't want to add much more. I'm split between:
A) Give them something fairly minor, like the crappier divine/wild feats.
B) Tell them to suck it up, they're already awesome.
C) Restrict them to less than the full list to start and let them earn it back.

[magicalmagicman]

Come to think of it, whey CAN'T other classes other than wizard get extra class features through money and treasure? Why do wizards only get the nice things?

I think it's more of a penalty than a benefit. Divine spellcasters get all spells without a spellbook or having to pay gp.

[johnbragg]

Come to think of it, whey CAN'T other classes other than wizard get extra class features through money and treasure? Why do wizards only get the nice things?

The assumption is that the Tier 1 caster has access to "all teh spellz." I'm not sure I've ever played in a campaign where the free spells when you level up has been much of a big deal. On even levels, you get the new spell level, so you can now scribe from that looted spellbook you found. Odd levels, spell access is free enough that you had what you really wanted (if there are spells the DM isn't letting you buy, he's not going to let you have them for free).

[Necroticplague]

I can't think of any other explanation for the halved cost except magic carbon paper.

Or presumably, some similar form of object that let's you make perfect copies for whatever form of spellbook you're working with. I imagine that some more physical media (like the spell-totems mentioned before, or the possible stone-etchings) might involve making molds of the 'spellbooks', coating the inside in alchemically-enhanced acids, then pressing it against the new spellbook. Still a bit of work and materials, but less then carving the thing by hand using a new set of anointed knives.

[Cirrylius]

Oh and why does he require 100gp if he is etching it on some talisman or rock? How about sand? If he writes his spell on a beach with a stick, will that still cost 100gp?
Yup. Although the more non-traditional you get, the more you can consider alternative values for "gp" and "ink". Services, trade goods, barter... if you use systems that consider social or political capital, like Kingmaker has Influence, that's fair game (and also opens up some interesting ideas for large-scale, but mundane, activities having occult significance).


Example-
An adept believes a spell he has encountered in his trials defending his village would be useful in his own hands, but understands that any such hubris as changing the nature of his own powers requires consulting the ancestors from whom his magic ultimately comes. To prepare that request, he spends some undefined downtime hunting a rare sacred white hart (carcass market value 100gp), burning the sacrifice while considering the spell, and using the ashes mixed with animal fat, ink a pictogram representing his request onto a small river stone. (If time is an issue, a more urgent, personal sacrifice, like bloodletting or tattooing, can be substituted). When the letters burst into brilliant light rather than open flame, he joyfully praises their generosity and gets to work scraping the symbol into the stone for a permanent reminder.

There are big cultural differences between all the classes, especially casters. That kind of flavor clashing can be awkward, but if everybody's willing to chip in on a little hand-waving things will generally translate.

Me personally, I put these flavor differences in magic on a kind of Money is Convenient vs. Value is Complicated sliding scale.

One end; a wizard making a magic sword sits in his lab, holding the 315gp long sword he bought outside, humming the Arms and Armor Enchanting Song under his breath, briskly polishing it with stuff from a bottle labelled Magic Sword Polish- 1000gp, for eight hours.

Other end: a wizard memorizing a new 1st spell stands on the beach during low tide, gazing at the words written in the sand before her, written with a peeled stick. She specially bought a half dozen large, blocky, gravel-quality quartz crystals from a vendor earlier today (60gp), and she shapes them for some time as she murmurs the spell over and over. When she's ready, she places the crystals in six places on the sand and cues the town's church choir to begin singing six separate harmonizing tones. They continue in shifts, for several more hours, as the wizard concentrates on the spell, and the occult harmonics created by the words, the sand, the crystals, and the voices. The spell crystalizes in her mind after six hours, she breathlessly thanks the participants, and tells them to get their compensation from her assistant (20gp). What she doesn't know is that the only reason they agreed to her creepy arcane bull in the first place is that the choir's pastor is more open minded, and was able to get them to volunteer by offering to match her pay. He fully plans on shaking that money tree later during collection to get it back, though- he supports her, but that's a lot of money (20gp later).

[Psyren]

Guys, please stop. We, the consumers, are the second party. Anything not published by WotC or made for your games yourself is produced by a third party.


^ Actually entirely false. It's licensed third party. It's not deemed first party content, and is general wonky as hell to boot, like KoK.


ARGH! No! That is not what that means! You are the second party, necroticplague! The second party is you.
http://i.imgur.com/lA8E2DU.gif

By all the gods, thank you both.


In game development and literary circles, the term "second party" has different meanings. In game development, the definition I've been using, I'm not anything, because I don't develop content. If I did, it would be independent development or homebrew.

Someone else put it fairly succinctly earlier:
"Things produced with a direct contractual relationship to WOTC (Dragon content, a couple of settings licensed out by WOTC) are second party. Professionally produced OGL content is third party. Non-professionally produced content is homebrew."
So that "licensed third party" is what second party means. Not made by WOTC, but licensed to be official dnd material.

Except it's not referring to development at all. It's referring to publishing.

[Gruftzwerg]

2. Why do you need 100gp if you're not using ink?
3. What specific ink is it? I'd like to make a savage wizard who etched all his spells as tattoos or wooden talismans and such, so i need like the tribe shaman to make his own ink to sell to my wizard.


3) I always thought that the ink is kinda "waterproof" what makes it so expensive.

2) If you take the answer to 3 as given, you can rule/roleplay any kind of other writing/etching similar. You just need special colors/alchemical substances to make it water/weatherproof/permanent. Just thin about etching. You need a (alchemical/magical?) way to make the object safe from further scratches that would make it difficult/impossible to read.
When you inscribe your spells as tattoos as example, there is no rule that you can't read them while wounded (not at full HP). So the alchemical/magical enhanced scripts are still readable.

Imho, there are enough ways to make it plausible role-play-wise.

4) It's easier to copy things, than to make them all by yourself. It seems you aren't wasting so much of your precious ink when you can just concentrate on the writing and don't need to think about the complex spell at the same time.

How does that sound?

edit: 1) the wizard gets the spell free and may inscribe it in his book. The later one he has to pay the resources (isn't wizard the "I pay to win class" here?^^ wizards have to pay for their power). Besides, I never see any Wizard not running around with some special ink and enough pages left in his spellbook.

[TheBrassDuke]

Has anyone thought to look in Complete Arcane for various alternative methods to writing spells? They have a section about tattoos/scars, and a few others. -_-

[Gildedragon]

Has anyone thought to look in Complete Arcane for various alternative methods to writing spells? They have a section about tattoos/scars, and a few others. -_-

the pricing is similar for those things. they abstract it to be "resources" or "special materials"
most cost the same as spellbooks (100gp per page) but others cost more: spells-as-architecture (x10) and tattoos (x2)

[magicalmagicman]

I can't believe we missed boccob's blessed book!

So lets get this straight.
Tattoos - 200gp
Normal Spell books - 100gp
Spellbook tokens (totem pole stuff) - 100gp
Boccob's Blessed Book - 0gp
Level Up - 0gp

Copying spellbooks takes only half as much. Let's make sense of this!

Tattoos require reagents and ink
As far as I could find, spellbooks are "Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. "

Boccob's Blessed Book - Normal Spell book = Writing The Spell - (Writing the Spell + Materials) = Materials.

I doubt you can write stuff in Boccob's Blessed Book with just your finger, so I think we can have negligible ink costs for writing, which means... The page you write in must be magically enchanted/imbued in some way for you to be able to prepare spells?

But then we have free spells on level up...

[Necroticplague]

I doubt you can write stuff in Boccob's Blessed Book with just your finger, so I think we can have negligible ink costs for writing, which means... The page you write in must be magically enchanted/imbued in some way for you to be able to prepare spells?

But then we have free spells on level up...

A Blessed Book is a magic item. It doesn't necessarily follow the same rules as doing things normally. Problem solved.

[zergling.exe]

I can't believe we missed boccob's blessed book!

So lets get this straight.
Tattoos - 200gp
Normal Spell books - 100gp
Spellbook tokens (totem pole stuff) - 100gp
Boccob's Blessed Book - 0gp
Level Up - 0gp

Copying spellbooks takes only half as much. Let's make sense of this!

Tattoos require reagents and ink
As far as I could find, spellbooks are "Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page. "

Boccob's Blessed Book - Normal Spell book = Writing The Spell - (Writing the Spell + Materials) = Materials.

I doubt you can write stuff in Boccob's Blessed Book with just your finger, so I think we can have negligible ink costs for writing, which means... The page you write in must be magically enchanted/imbued in some way for you to be able to prepare spells?

But then we have free spells on level up...

You may just be able to write what you want in a Blessed Book by drawing any object across the pages by magic. The more confusing thing is that in at least my DMG it has this line:
A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a Boccob’s blessed book with spells without paying the 25 gp per page material cost.

Neither SRD has this 25 gp per page thing though. Anyone else's hard cover have this?

[shaikujin]

You may just be able to write what you want in a Blessed Book by drawing any object across the pages by magic. The more confusing thing is that in at least my DMG it has this line:

Neither SRD has this 25 gp per page thing though. Anyone else's hard cover have this?

Yeah, it's listed as 25 gp as well in my DMG 3.5 on pg 249.
Could be a mistake from WoTC.


I dug out my 3.0 DMG suspecting that's where the 25 gp came from, but no. The 3.0 DMG does not mention the 25 gp. It just says the pages "freely accepts spells scribed upon them". Additionally, it can contain only 45 spells (but of any level).

[Psyren]

I'd say the Blessed Book lets you use anything - common ink, pencil, charcoal, lemon juice etc. - and it will turn it into the special ink that mundane spellbooks require. Thus you can scribe in it to your heart's content at no cost.

[shaikujin]

I'd say the Blessed Book lets you use anything - common ink, pencil, charcoal, lemon juice etc. - and it will turn it into the special ink that mundane spellbooks require. Thus you can scribe in it to your heart's content at no cost.

My mental image of it is that it's like a Etch A Sketch (or Magna Doodle) board. No ink required at all :D

[Segev]

Doesn't Boccob's Blessed Book also let you do one spell per page regardless of spell level?

[NichG]

If I were to try to make a setting where these results fall out naturally from the laws of the cosmos, it'd be something like this...

- What is a spell?

A spell is the manifestation of some kind of transcendental knowledge about the workings of the universe - knowledge which by possessing it, you actually locally distort the way things are to be more in tune with that knowledge. Thus, someone casting a fireball isn't per se creating fire directly with their magic, but rather they're changing the laws of the universe locally so that some motion or words spoken results in the creation of flame. However, alteration of the local laws meets resistance when it contacts the nature of other things which have existence - that is to say, things like saving throws, spell resistance, etc are a being manifesting its knowledge of its own existence (or its matter's knowledge of its own existence) over the imposed laws. As such, spells tend to be highly specific so that they don't accidentally collide with the natural functioning of unintended targets. One could craft a broader spell with more flexible effects, but the risk is that the spell would pop if anyone or any object in the nearby area happened to make a successful saving throw.

Spell slots are a representation of the gradual accumulation of excess existential energy. A caster essentially learns to support their own physical existence slightly less during waking hours and day to day life, and to store up that excess energy in tautologies - self-confirming beliefs, logical constructs, or ideas - which they can unravel at need to power their spells. The various tiers of spell slots have to do with the degree of abstraction underlying the concepts or understandings that constitute a spell. So a 9th level spell slot corresponds to an idea which must be supported by 9 layers of nested reasoning in order for the idea to become manifestly self-evident (and therefore materially manifest); it basically has built into it a hierarchical structure designed entirely to support the capstone claim, and so it requires training and effort to use that slot for a different spell (e.g. you need a feat/class ability/meta-spell/whatever). This is where the number of pages per spell level comes from - its the number of self-contained lemmas or corrolaries needed to write down the spell's 'proof'.

- What is learning a spell?

A scroll actually contains its spell, like a self-contained spell slot. To copy it to your spellbook, you must basically slowly release the tautology and study it as it dissipates, then reconstruct the reasoning behind it in your own words and write that into your spellbook. However, normally a spell dissipates quite quickly so this would be impossible for anyone to do. The special materials used in transcribing scrolls essentially capture the essence of the unraveling spell and turn it into manifestations which persist long enough for the caster to study them. That's 50% of the material cost.

Since spells are insights and revelations into a way that cosmos could be which in turns changes how it is, its usually not the case that spells are mutually consistent with eachother. To comprehend and contain 'Fireball' one must believe things that would prevent one from comprehending and containing 'Magic Missile'. So even if you put a spell in your own words in your spell-book, you can't just write it as it is, you have to write it in a way that makes you able to intuit it and rediscover it by thinking about what you wrote during the trance in which you actually did understand the spell. Doing so using just a clever word or allegory would again be very difficult if not impossible and would make preparing spells for the day something like 2E D&D where you might spend a week filling up all your slots. However, if you work a minor enchantment into the book similar to what is used to transcribe spells from scrolls, you can basically have the book shove its contents into your mind when you study it, enabling you to prepare spells in minutes rather than hours. This is the other 50% of the material cost.

So this is why copying another wizard's spellbook costs only half as much - you don't need to prepare the materials to keep a spell alive while you slowly pull it apart, but you still need to make your own spellbook able to cram contradictory beliefs into your head at a glance.

Incidentally, this is why clerics and druids don't need spellbooks - they just have a fixed set of beliefs which they follow with all their heart, and its just a matter of binding up the energies of their own existence so that those beliefs can be imposed on the world quickly enough to be useful in combat. Sorcerors don't need spellbooks because their body's existence itself is minorly incompatible with the normal state of nature, so they just have to tap into that.

- What is spontaneously discovering a spell (at level-up)?

When a wizard comes into an insight for a new spell on their own, they're already thinking about it in their natural state of mind. So unlike other spells, the insights they spontaneously discover don't need to be crammed into their head awkwardly, but rather constitute a sort of 'oh, that's obvious, I get what I was thinking when I wrote that!' kind of relationship with the wizard in question. So for those flashes of insight, the wizard doesn't really need to enchant their spellbook to brainwash them in order to pick it up quickly - the spell is already something which is part of their day to day worldview. Of course this doesn't work for any other wizard who wants to learn it from them...

[shaikujin]

Doesn't Boccob's Blessed Book also let you do one spell per page regardless of spell level?

In 3.0 yes, 1 page per spell. Spell level doesn't matter.
I think it's the same in AD&D as well.

No such wording in 3.5 unfortunately.

[Psyren]

In 3.5, if you want to do that, you need to be a Geometer.

[magicalmagicman]

I got a new theory. After combing through alternative spellbooks in Complete Arcane, this is the conclusion I came upon.

1. Ink needs to be magical in order for you to be able to put the spell in your head.
2. The ink needs specific reagents in order to become magical. Arguably every spell has a unique mixture of reagents.
3. The reagents costs 100gp per spell level to magically imbue ink.
4. Half gold for copying existing spellbooks because I guess mixing reagents is easier, because you have your own notes to copy from.
5. No cost for free spells because you gathered the reagents as background activity while experimenting/researching new magic.

Why reagents you ask? By RAW, d20srd says Materials for writing into your spellbook, and Complete Arcane says magic tattoos require the finest Inks and Reagents.

Oh and
6. Spells have to be written with ink. Carved totem pole = illegal. It has to be a painted totempole that is painted with magic paint.

[Gildedragon]

@magicalmagicman
Assertion 6 is wrong
CA just says resources. The spells can be simply carved into the material, with the expensive material counting for the spell's cost. An unpainted totem pole is a-ok. It probably is an entire spellbook, considering its size.

[icefractal]

On this subject, a question I've had a harder time with - why can the Wizard's free spells for level-up not be custom-created spells?

When we're talking about creating a new spell vs copying one, it's obvious that copying would be easier. But the level-up spells aren't copied - you still get them if you spent that level out in the desert not meeting any other Wizards. If a Wizard is inspired enough to discover Fireball on reaching 5th level, despite never having met another mage who had it, then why not Iceball instead?

The only basis I can think of is "During learning to be a Wizard, the apprentice learns a certain set of basic magical principles. All printed spells arise somewhat naturally from those principles, and custom spells don't." But that's pretty shaky, especially when the custom spell is just a variant form that easily could have been printed but wasn't.

One possibility would be to say "yes, you can get custom spells that way". Assuming the custom spells were properly balanced and mutually agreed on, I don't see a problem with this approach. But I'm curious if anyone has a reason for the RAW that makes any IC sense.

[Segev]

I see no reason why they couldn't be custom spells. The OOC process for creating them would have to be followed, of course. That mainly being: get the DM's approval for the spell's existence at that level with those mechanics.

[Psyren]

One possibility would be to say "yes, you can get custom spells that way". Assuming the custom spells were properly balanced and mutually agreed on, I don't see a problem with this approach. But I'm curious if anyone has a reason for the RAW that makes any IC sense.

The easy way to handle this would be to make them a custom/improved version of a spell you already know. Say you've had Expeditious Retreat in your book for a while now, and over several sessions you've come up with a way to improve the spell (Icefractal's Immediate Ingress) such that it works on any movement mode, changes the bonus type, or perhaps diverts some of the energy from the spell to make it faster, becoming a swift action in exchange for having only half the speed boost. Now you have a totally IC justification for your custom spell.

Personally though I wouldn't allow this, as letting you research custom free spells would sidestep the research costs at a minimum.

[magicalmagicman]

@magicalmagicman
Assertion 6 is wrong
CA just says resources. The spells can be simply carved into the material, with the expensive material counting for the spell's cost. An unpainted totem pole is a-ok. It probably is an entire spellbook, considering its size.

Carving additional spells cost additional money. If the totem pole was magical, then it should only have a 1 time cost like boccob's not cost-per-spell-level like spellbooks.


The easy way to handle this would be to make them a custom/improved version of a spell you already know. Say you've had Expeditious Retreat in your book for a while now, and over several sessions you've come up with a way to improve the spell (Icefractal's Immediate Ingress) such that it works on any movement mode, changes the bonus type, or perhaps diverts some of the energy from the spell to make it faster, becoming a swift action in exchange for having only half the speed boost. Now you have a totally IC justification for your custom spell.

Personally though I wouldn't allow this, as letting you research custom free spells would sidestep the research costs at a minimum.

I disagree. 2 free spells per level are researched spells. I agree with the other gentleman that the spells need to be approved by the DM first though.

[Necroticplague]

Carving additional spells cost additional money. If the totem pole was magical, then it should only have a 1 time cost like boccob's not cost-per-spell-level like spellbooks.

I discussed this earlier. The 'ink' is special mix you have to apply to your carving tools. Or it's a special way you have to treat the wood ahead of time, so an appropriately treated totem is the same as a normal wizard having a spellbook with some blank pages and a supply of ink already at hand.

[magicalmagicman]

I discussed this earlier. The 'ink' is special mix you have to apply to your carving tools. Or it's a special way you have to treat the wood ahead of time, so an appropriately treated totem is the same as a normal wizard having a spellbook with some blank pages and a supply of ink already at hand.

Yeah, that works. I don't see why not.