Frenzy Rage bonus attack

[Karnack]

Hey folks I require some outside opinions on this idea.

I have a player in a game I am running that is looking to go into Path of the Berserker at level 3 as the Totem and Battlerager options don't really appeal to him fluff wise but he is a bit worried about the exhaustion gained from Frenzy and I am inclined to agree with him that it seems a bit harsh just for one extra attack. I had thought about the exhaustion removal that some others do but I have been considering maybe instead letting just make another Attack action as a bonus action instead and keep the exhaustion cost on it.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

[NewDM]

I don't understand? You don't want your player's character to automatically die after 6 encounters? Just make sure there is a Cleric with raise dead and you are all set.

All comedy aside, I'd simply limit the Exhaustion to maybe 3 levels and say the barbarian can't use that feature past that, or allow a level of exhaustion to be removed on a short rest and all levels on a long rest.

[Tanarii]

I think you're better off making exhaustion gained from Frezy recover faster rather than powering up Frenzy.

[Dizlag]

I would combine the last two suggestions into one solution. Not allowing this ability if the barbarian has 3 exhaustion levels and allow exhaustion to recover quicker. Like allowing one exhaustion level to be recovered with a short rest and up to 3 levels after a long rest.

Dizlag

[Hairfish]

It's up to nine full-strength extra attacks (1/turn), with a two-handed weapon, at level 3, made using bonus actions that have no trigger requirement (making them the only non-monk subclass that can Dodge and attack in the same turn). Frenzy is meant to be saved for when you need it, not something you use every time you rage.

Plus, if you hold out until the party hits 9th level, healing spell classes get access to Greater Restoration, which removes exhaustion.

[Belac93]

Its totally worth it. Your exhaustion is also limited by the number of times you can rage, so its not going to be too troubling. If you are really worried, just increase the exhaustion recovery time.

[NewDM]

Its totally worth it. Your exhaustion is also limited by the number of times you can rage, so its not going to be too troubling. If you are really worried, just increase the exhaustion recovery time.

RAW you only reduce exhaustion levels 1 per long rest. This means you can use this feature once per day unless you want multiple days of exhaustion. Its really punishing.

[Tanarii]

I would combine the last two suggestions into one solution. Not allowing this ability if the barbarian has 3 exhaustion levels and allow exhaustion to recover quicker. Like allowing one exhaustion level to be recovered with a short rest and up to 3 levels after a long rest.

Personally I'd go with allowing all to be recovered on a LR, but none during a day. That keeps the mechanic on a LR schedule, ie still requires choice to exhaust yourself excessively during a given day, but doesn't affect following days.

But that's because I'm naturally leery about powering things up. ;)

[Spacehamster]

Thing that makes Frenzy so bad is that there is so many other ways to get a bonus attack so its just a useless move, either do as
others suggested having it recover on short rests aswell or make it give two bonus attacks instead of one. That way its v powerful but
at a steep price.

[SharkForce]

just to be clear, you don't *have* to frenzy. you can just do a normal rage.

that said, i tend to agree it is a bit punishing. haven't heard a completely satisfactory solution yet, though... just removing exhaustion probably makes the berserker too good. most of the other solutions involve tracking annoying things.

(and no, greater restoration at 9th level is not a solution. class features should not revolve around the assumption that someone else is obligated to be your babysitter).

[NewDM]

just to be clear, you don't *have* to frenzy. you can just do a normal rage.

that said, i tend to agree it is a bit punishing. haven't heard a completely satisfactory solution yet, though... just removing exhaustion probably makes the berserker too good. most of the other solutions involve tracking annoying things.

(and no, greater restoration at 9th level is not a solution. class features should not revolve around the assumption that someone else is obligated to be your babysitter).

You mean like Hit Points assuming a Cleric in the party? :smallsmile:

[Theodoxus]

Invest in potions of vitality. It was my go-to solution for my berserker... oh, and don't take feats that give bonus attacks - 1d10 vs 1d4 when adding 16 points of damage isn't much

[HoarsHalberd]

Once per long rest, a berserker may spend an hour honing his mastery over his own body to remove one level of exhaustion. This may be done during a short rest. - That's about the level of power required to bring Berserker in line with the other two paths.


You mean like Hit Points assuming a Cleric in the party? :smallsmile:

Actually I've played in two parties without a healer and neither of them has had any real problem so far. (It's about to hurt though, long, painful slog through zombie apocalypse level nightmare at level 5.)

[Foxhound438]

the exhaustion is the cost of the otherwise best feature available to a barbarian to make a third attack. If he doesn't like it, tell him to take polearm master for a third attack. If he doesn't like that, tell him to grab a level of fighter for two weapon fighting. If he doesn't like that, tell him to deal with it.

Oh, and it's kind of funny that you say it's a steep cost for one extra attack... Yeah, a 50% jump in damage is worth so little in this game, lol.

[Slipperychicken]

the exhaustion is the cost of the otherwise best feature available to a barbarian to make a third attack. If he doesn't like it, tell him to take polearm master for a third attack. If he doesn't like that, tell him to grab a level of fighter for two weapon fighting. If he doesn't like that, tell him to deal with it.

Oh, and it's kind of funny that you say it's a steep cost for one extra attack... Yeah, a 50% jump in damage is worth so little in this game, lol.

Yeah, that's the idea. It's a steep cost relative to the cheaper ways to get it. Those incuding polearm master, GWM, TWF, being a monk, and so on.

[HoarsHalberd]

the exhaustion is the cost of the otherwise best feature available to a barbarian to make a third attack. If he doesn't like it, tell him to take polearm master for a third attack. If he doesn't like that, tell him to grab a level of fighter for two weapon fighting. If he doesn't like that, tell him to deal with it.

Oh, and it's kind of funny that you say it's a steep cost for one extra attack... Yeah, a 50% jump in damage is worth so little in this game, lol.

Except it isn't a 50% jump in damage. An optimised damage build for barbarians is going to involve PM regardless of whether they are berserkers or not because a berserker can only afford to do it once per day. At that point it's a tiny jump in damage, traded off against resistance to all the most common damage types. A totem barbarian with PM and GWM completely outstrips a berserker barbarian with or without both of those feats.

[SharkForce]

You mean like Hit Points assuming a Cleric in the party? :smallsmile:

not really.

for starters, everyone recovers full HP at the end of the day, and has built-in ability to recover HP during short rests. furthermore, everyone has methods they can use to reduce HP loss (higher AC, better positioning, better tactics, use of crowd control, dodge action, in some cases resistances or even limited self-healing), and everyone has access to methods that can further help with HP loss (leader or healer feats, healing potions). there are almost certainly even some things that i haven't even accounted for that can further be used to mitigate hp loss, and 5th edition has been designed with the intent that no, you don't need a babysitter to heal you constantly (and a variety of groups have noted success with little or no healing available).

you don't need a cleric (or a bard, or a druid, or any other healer) in the party, although it can be helpful.

that is not much at all like the berserker, who has no way to use the ability without inflicting a level of exhaustion (and making them a bit less effective for the entire day), and who cannot afford to use the ability very often because only a single level of exhaustion goes away on a long rest (and multiple levels of exhaustion start to get really bad really fast).

[Theodoxus]

Horde breaker vs Berserker. That's all you need to know. A "free" action for the ranger, that has a tiny opportunity cost associated with it - and no levels of exhaustion - for a whole new attack that still lets him use a bonus action - vs a BS ability that uses a bonus, causes exhaustion and does marginally more damage than PAM.

Stupid mechanic is stupid. Is it any wonder that once the shiny wrapping paper is torn off the class packages, that Berserker polls lower than Hunter? A class that tends to be played the most (barbarian) vs a class that is played among the least (ranger) and their subclass is mechanically worse. Boggles the mind.

[unwise]

I sat it on a game recently where the DM said that Beserkers basically get Action Surge 1/turn while Frenzied but can only use it to attack. So after level 5, they get two extra attacks. The DM did not make it cost a bonus action, which was only OK because they were not using feats. That certainly made it very worthwhile. In a game without feats, a beserker is quiet decent to start with, so this was unnecessary, but in another game I could see it working well.

[Saeviomage]

My own personal favourite is to say that barbarians ignore exhaustion while raging (including death), and do not suffer the level 1 penalty for exhaustion (because otherwise your barbarian frenzies once and then may as well ignore all non-combat activity).

Oh, and also give options for skill-based removal of exhaustion (as long as the source of exhaustion is not currently ongoing: no healing up from starvation until you stop starving) and almost everything else that greater restoration does because as is, it's just silly.

[Yuroch Kern]

Seeing as how your player only has 2 Rages, a single level of exhaustion shouldn't matter, presuming the Frenzy has carried the previous fight. Since you can only regain Rage on a long rest, it becomes a self-correcting resource.

[NewDM]

not really.

for starters, everyone recovers full HP at the end of the day, and has built-in ability to recover HP during short rests. furthermore, everyone has methods they can use to reduce HP loss (higher AC, better positioning, better tactics, use of crowd control, dodge action, in some cases resistances or even limited self-healing), and everyone has access to methods that can further help with HP loss (leader or healer feats, healing potions). there are almost certainly even some things that i haven't even accounted for that can further be used to mitigate hp loss, and 5th edition has been designed with the intent that no, you don't need a babysitter to heal you constantly (and a variety of groups have noted success with little or no healing available).

you don't need a cleric (or a bard, or a druid, or any other healer) in the party, although it can be helpful.

that is not much at all like the berserker, who has no way to use the ability without inflicting a level of exhaustion (and making them a bit less effective for the entire day), and who cannot afford to use the ability very often because only a single level of exhaustion goes away on a long rest (and multiple levels of exhaustion start to get really bad really fast).

Yeah, I've DM'd 4 one shot adventures and play in 2 other long term games. In every one a Cleric (or other healer class) is absolutely necessary.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, I've DM'd 4 one shot adventures and play in 2 other long term games. In every one a Cleric (or other healer class) is absolutely necessary.

more likely your party is making bad decisions and expecting the cleric to pay the price instead of them. certainly, a cleric can do that. that doesn't mean you *need* a cleric to be able to do that in order for the game to function. many people have had no problems with no healers. many more have been just fine with only feat-based healing (and temp HP). if your group is experiencing problems and most other groups are not, well... it probably isn't that the other groups who have run without healers successfully are doing something wrong.

and considering that "healbot" is almost universally an undesirable party role in a co-operative game, i can only say that the game *should* function without them. so honestly, if those of us who have not been having problems without healers are "doing it wrong", then, well, i don't want to be right. i have enough memories of getting stuck being the healer in older editions of D&D, and having to take turns being the character that nobody wants to be. i've played 2nd edition with custom classes and everyone having multiple characters specifically so that nobody would get stuck with their only character being the designated healer. i've played MMOs as well, in a variety of roles, and found that the ones i like most are the ones where healers are less necessary (but helpful if available), and ideally don't need to specialize in a major way towards being a pure healer (or alternately where everyone has some self-sustain capabilities).

so yeah... 5e doesn't require a healbot. and that is a good thing. you should probably look into how you can change the dynamic of your groups so that nobody gets stuck with the job of spamming a cantrip for pathetic damage every round unless someone needs healing in which case they don't even get to spam their cantrip. that's one part of the D&D tradition i'm glad to see gone.

[NewDM]

more likely your party is making bad decisions and expecting the cleric to pay the price instead of them. certainly, a cleric can do that. that doesn't mean you *need* a cleric to be able to do that in order for the game to function. many people have had no problems with no healers. many more have been just fine with only feat-based healing (and temp HP). if your group is experiencing problems and most other groups are not, well... it probably isn't that the other groups who have run without healers successfully are doing something wrong.

and considering that "healbot" is almost universally an undesirable party role in a co-operative game, i can only say that the game *should* function without them. so honestly, if those of us who have not been having problems without healers are "doing it wrong", then, well, i don't want to be right. i have enough memories of getting stuck being the healer in older editions of D&D, and having to take turns being the character that nobody wants to be. i've played 2nd edition with custom classes and everyone having multiple characters specifically so that nobody would get stuck with their only character being the designated healer. i've played MMOs as well, in a variety of roles, and found that the ones i like most are the ones where healers are less necessary (but helpful if available), and ideally don't need to specialize in a major way towards being a pure healer (or alternately where everyone has some self-sustain capabilities).

so yeah... 5e doesn't require a healbot. and that is a good thing. you should probably look into how you can change the dynamic of your groups so that nobody gets stuck with the job of spamming a cantrip for pathetic damage every round unless someone needs healing in which case they don't even get to spam their cantrip. that's one part of the D&D tradition i'm glad to see gone.

where do you get that "most groups do not" feel the need for a healer? Did you do some kind of D&D wide survey? From what I've seen just on these forums a cleric is pretty much needed.

[smcmike]

Back on thread, has anyone actually played a frenzy barbarian? Was it fun? Sometimes a weakness can add fun tension, and it's certainly fitting with the standard beserker narrative to be truly sapped after going nuts.

[SharkForce]

where do you get that "most groups do not" feel the need for a healer? Did you do some kind of D&D wide survey? From what I've seen just on these forums a cleric is pretty much needed.

indeed? what threads do you claim as support from these forums? i can point to two posts in this thread alone where people said they did absolutely fine without healers. i've also seen a number of threads where people discussed that fact as well. i have not been having problems either.

i can't recall any threads where people said they tried without a healer and it absolutely did not work. i've seen people who wanted to make a healing-capable class because they felt their party was lacking in that area and it would help more than doubling up on some other role, but not "we tried going without a healer and it didn't work". the great majority of your healing should come from short and long rests, because otherwise you're wasting resources that can be devastatingly effective in other ways. you can have hundreds of HP of unused healing at the end of the day and have your cleric do nothing but a single melee attack or a pretty awful cantrip that deals low damage even for a cantrip, or you can have your cleric provide powerful offensive support, long-duration defensive buffs, and damage through their spell list and have everyone use their own healing resources, which every single character comes equipped with (capable of healing a total of 1.5 times their own HP per day).

does it help to have a healer of some kind? sure. you can make bad decisions and recover from them easier. and i've heard that the side that will win a war is generally the side that can afford to make the most mistakes. but since it comes at the expense of one players' fun if you do that all the time, it is a terrible idea to default to that when playing a game.

i have to suspect that the reason you generally need a healer is that you've decided that you need a healer. if you have that player instead play to impact the fight with other abilities and use healing magic as a last resort rather than a first resort, your play experience should change as well.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, I've DM'd 4 one shot adventures and play in 2 other long term games. In every one a Cleric (or other healer class) is absolutely necessary.

In my experience, you need some kind of healer to get through a non-trivial adventuring day. If you only have 1-3 fights in a day with a short rest in there, then you can get by without much healing. If your GM is running you through 6-8 fights between long rests, then you need a lot of healing, and you'll probably wish you had a serious healer on hand. [EDIT: And yes, I do mean out of combat healing, with the only in-combat healing being used to wake up someone who KO'd]

I don't know what kind of masterful plays SharkForce is making to avoid taking more than half his health in damage over a day, or how many fights his group deals with between long and short rests, but maybe casual n00bs like us need the healing more.

[Foxhound438]

I don't know what kind of masterful plays SharkForce is making to avoid taking more than half his health in damage over a day, or how many fights his group deals with between long and short rests, but maybe casual n00bs like us need the healing more.

I prefer to rely heavily on the DM rolling garbage all day lol

[SharkForce]

In my experience, you need some kind of healer to get through a non-trivial adventuring day. If you only have 1-3 fights in a day with a short rest in there, then you can get by without much healing. If your GM is running you through 6-8 fights between long rests, then you need a lot of healing, and you'll probably wish you had a serious healer on hand. [EDIT: And yes, I do mean out of combat healing, with the only in-combat healing being used to wake up someone who KO'd]

I don't know what kind of masterful plays SharkForce is making to avoid taking more than half his health in damage over a day, or how many fights his group deals with between long and short rests, but maybe casual n00bs like us need the healing more.

you can take 1.5x your total health in one day (give or take, i mean, it definitely depends on your rolls). not half.

you long rest, and get your full HP back. plus you get back half of your hit dice. if you're losing 1/2 your HP in 1/3 of an adventuring day, that means you should only need a very little bit of healing in a day beyond that, if any. you don't need to be 100% topped off after every fight, and to be totally clear, the guideline is ~6-8 fights per day, the great majority of which should be pretty easy. if you're coming out of 1 fight and you went from full to 0 HP in it, either your DM should adjust their expected adventuring day accordingly (there's a total XP budget per day as well, and it doesn't call for half a dozen quadruple-deadly fights), or you are probably making some really bad decisions.

now it is certainly beneficial to have someone who can provide additional healing in case a particular adventuring day goes very poorly, and you need a bit more help (but then, that's what healing potions are good for too). but a party member should not be an HP battery. they should be doing much the same thing as the other people in the party, and occasionally providing an emergency heal if necessary. and perhaps your DM thinks that it's "fun" to put the party into a situation where they fight too many battles of too high difficulty compared to what they should be facing, such that for your group, you need a cleric to be your personal healing slave. but again, i must stress that this is the sort of playstyle that typically leads to a poor play experience for the person who is stuck being a healbot, so why on earth would you want to change things to a point where someone needs to be a healbot for everyone else? in what world is it a good idea to change your game design to *require* someone to play a boring role?

[Karnack]

Lots of good input folks, alot of the ideas seem to involve allowing him to remove the exhaustion quicker though those ideas I would need to give to the rest of the party as well which I could be ok with.

Another idea I had was just removing the exhaustion cost but only allowing frenzy once per short rest.

Think that might be a suitable change?

[Lollerabe]

Just out of curiosity - has anyone thought about redesigning frenzy as a whole ? Looking through various threads about the feature, it seems that many people not only dislike the exhaustion mechanic but also the actual feature I.e an extra attack as a BA.

What about something like:
Starting when you chose this path 3rd level, you can go into frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of the rage you deal an additional 2d6 weapon damage when you hit with a melee weapon attack. You can this feature once per turn, and twice per turn at lvl 5. This damage increases to 2d8 (10?) at 9th lvl and 2d10(12?) at level 16.

I'm in no way sure about the numbers yet and the wording is horrible. However this would make the frenzy barb the better damage path (which seems to be the intention) and still work with the various weapon feats.
To me it just feels like the frenzy barb becomes a straight flavor choice if you aren't playing in a featless game.

Food for thought anyway

[Noldo]

In respect of Frenzy it is fairly clear that either developers overestimated the difference between 1d10/1d4(/1d10) and 1d12+1/1d12+1(/1d12+1) attack routine or the theorycraft underestimates the difference.

Still, I favor some way for Barbarian to get rid of levels of exhaustion. Preferably in a way that scales with level so that high level Barbarian would be less gimped by a single frenzy.

[Lollerabe]

Still haven't crunched the numbers on my suggestion with it I'd prolly add 'you can remove one level of exhaustion per con modifier per long rest'. Still makes it an opportunity cost when you got more than 2 rages per day. that would stay in tune with the rage feature being a long rest dependent feature.

[GlenSmash!]

How about a con save to avoid exhaustion? it could work like Relentless Rage, with and increasing DC for every time you frenzy.

From the SRD for reference:
Starting at 11th level, your rage can keep you fighting despite grievous wounds. If you drop to 0 hit points while you’re raging and don’t die outright, you can make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you succeed, you drop to 1 hit point instead. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.

So something like:
Whenever you enter (or maybe exit) a frenzy make a DC Constitution saving throw. If you fail;, take one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a long rest, the DC resets to 10.

This gives a higher level berserker more chance to make the save due to proficiency in con saves. A berserker can further increase their chance of succeeding by investing ASIs in constitution.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, that's the idea. It's a steep cost relative to the cheaper ways to get it. Those incuding polearm master, GWM, TWF, being a monk, and so on.


Except it isn't a 50% jump in damage. An optimised damage build for barbarians is going to involve PM regardless of whether they are berserkers or not because a berserker can only afford to do it once per day. At that point it's a tiny jump in damage, traded off against resistance to all the most common damage types. A totem barbarian with PM and GWM completely outstrips a berserker barbarian with or without both of those feats.

(response to both posts:)
Yes but that's because PAM & GWM are broken, especially for a Barbarian. The reason they're so popular is they're little downside options that every Barbarian should take, Unless he's trying to pick up options for things other than damage output of course. (ie a particular build might include Observant, Dungeon Delver and Con ASIs if you're the party trap-springer for example.)

Frenzy looks more appealing when the broken alternatives are fixed or removed from the table.

[gfishfunk]

I think you're better off making exhaustion gained from Frezy recover faster rather than powering up Frenzy.

I would do this: He can lose a level of exhaustion in exchange for 1 healing surge hit dice at a short rest. (EDI: I'm listening to a 4e podcast right now....)

[Lollerabe]

So change or remove two feats that many people enjoy entirely or change one feature ? Decisions decisions.

Regarding the exhaustion level, there are many ways to address it. The problem remains that in a non featless game, the feature would still be underwhelming regardless of how you handle exhaustion. Remember this is the 3rd level archetype feature, it's suppose to be strong, as in class defining strong.

[SharkForce]

(response to both posts:)
Yes but that's because PAM & GWM are broken, especially for a Barbarian. The reason they're so popular is they're little downside options that every Barbarian should take, Unless he's trying to pick up options for things other than damage output of course. (ie a particular build might include Observant, Dungeon Delver and Con ASIs if you're the party trap-springer for example.)

Frenzy looks more appealing when the broken alternatives are fixed or removed from the table.

i would argue that the problem is more in the fact that those two feats are required. without those two feats (or the ranged equivalents), weapon-users lose a lot of power.

as far as a save to resist the effects of frenzy, not a huge fan. it either removes the cost, or keeps the current cost which is too high. we need something intermediate to put in there, not something that always guarantees an undesirable result.

[Tanarii]

So change or remove two feats that many people enjoy entirely or change one feature ? Decisions decisions. no, you change them (or just don't allow them at all, since they are optional) because they are broken. Meaning "obvious choice that you should always take because they are always more powerful." (Keep in mind were specifically talking about Barbarians here.)


i would argue that the problem is more in the fact that those two feats are required. without those two feats (or the ranged equivalents), weapon-users lose a lot of power.If you say so. I don't know that to be true. But unlike Barbarian with feats vs Barbarian I haven't looked at those numbers. I more often see inter-fighting type number crunching going on.


General comment:
Of course many (most?) people will play with PAM / GWM on the table, so Frenzy will definitely be a weaker option. I'm just commenting that putting the 'problem' on Frenzy in comparison to those feats is not a fair yardstick. They are more powerful option for Barbarians than anything else they come into comparison with, not just Frenzy.

[N810]

Removing all exhaustion levels on long rest works for my barb,
Although I would welcome loosing one level of exhaustion on a short reset as well, even if I had roll a DC check for it.

[Lollerabe]

It dosent matter if we are specifically talking about barbs, if you remove both GWM and PAM you are limiting and nerfing martial classes that can be strength based. Hell scratch that, blade locks and war domain clerics as well.

I can't for the life of me see why you would rather do that than rework the frenzy feature (which dosent work with dual wielding mind you, not all that great with shield master either).

we come back to this again for some reason: of course the two feats that work compliments heavy weapons are the best dpr option for a class that revolves solely around breing in melee, while having features that has synergy with heavy weapons (brutal crit). If they didn't that would be very strange.

Why you wanna balance from a featless game perspective is also beyond me, the fact that the PHB refer to feats as optional dosent mean anything in practice. Look at AL, look at the forum boards - people play with feats and love them.

[Tanarii]

It dosent matter if we are specifically talking about barbs, if you remove both GWM and PAM you are limiting and nerfing martial classes that can be strength based. Hell scratch that, blade locks and war domain clerics as well.Limiting is not the same as nerfing. Sometimes it's fixing overpowered options compared to all other options available. (Nerfing implies making weaker than all other options, not bringing down into line with other options.)

And it's not just Frenzy that runs into the "bonus action competes with PAM and loses" problem. Lots of things do. TWF certainly does, although it also gets screwed on Extra Attack.

[Theodoxus]

I agree, somewhat.

After playing a berserker, I would have definitely traded away both PAM and GWM for either other feats (Savage Attacker, probably) or ASIs to boost Str and Con, and just went with a great axe and using Frenzy to generate bonus attacks.

However, when you're looking at barbarian, and you have feats available, you need to look at the opportunity cost for each path. Totem gets you lots of options - and since you're not stuck with the same totem animal each level you unlock another ability, you get a lot of utility and versatility - it's even hard to argue that at any specific level, one animal's granted abilities are the obvious choice. As such, no two totem barbarians at the same table would necessarily be alike. Berserker on the otherhand, have no options. You get what you get and every berserker you encounter will be identical - and outside of feats, will play very much alike.

Now, the berserker who takes PAM and/or GWM, will find themselves using frenzy very infrequently - generally when (this is even more relevant to a GWM only build) there's a single target in range. The berserker who understands bonus actions a bit better, and grabs other feats (or ASI) that don't compete on a round by round basis for their BA, will use frenzy far more often, as they can use it like cleave, or even the clever 'shove then BA' the prone target.

I haven't been able to verify, but I suspect that the barbarian (specifically berserker path, but probably the whole class) was finalized before the feats were. I know ranger came out long past the barbarian - and the horde breaker definitely feels like power creep. Before feat support with bonus actions, Frenzy was probably really special and powerful. But, it was cast in stone and locked away when BAs become more blase. Now, exhaustion is crippling, to the point that people are constantly brewing up new ways to handle it. It's an unnecessary mechanic. So much so, that I think Frenzy, with the BA requirement, is perfectly fine without the exhaustion. It is essentially multi-attack for a player character, with the small caveat that it requires a bonus action to get that second attack in.

If it works for human thugs with no issue, it should certainly be ok for half-orc barbarians.

[Lollerabe]

That is not true. Nerfing - 'to make a feature less attractive/desirable' let's not argue semantics though, I doubt either of us are in doubt as to each others points.

TWF is just.. Dare I say it - horribly horribly designed (my personal opinion should there be any doubt) the fact that it dosent work with multiple features, AND dosent scale with extra attacks showcases this.

And yes limiting options is an indirect nerf, options = power. Less options = less power, removing options = removing power. Why are we even discussing this?

What's lots of things? Do elaborate.

You still haven't addressed my claim from earlier: a feat that compliments the most damage dealing weapons, on the most melee damaging class should add up to the highest melee dpr in the game right, I mean what else should?
Wholeheartedly agree Theo, the frenzy barb really feels like it was designed pre feats, and I have suspected this for ages too. To a certain degree I harbor the same suspicion for TWF.

Heavy weapons are obviously designed to deal a fair chunk more damage than it's counterparts, this is clearly seen from die size and feats.

The GWM 'problem ' (and I don't agree that this is a problem) is only evident on the barb, for other classes it isn't a clear cut winner. Well yeah it deals more damg than S&B but I hope we can agree that it should.

[Tanarii]

That is not true. Nerfing - 'to make feature less attractive/desirable' let's not argue semantics though, I doubt either of us are in doubt as to each others points.

And yes limiting options is an indirect nerf, options = power. Less options = less power, removing options = removing power. Why are we even discussing this?(Rearranged your first four sentences slightly so I can respond to relevant points together. ie first two parts quoted)

I do think we see each other's points quite well. I contest the term "nerf" because it implies a negative thing. I don't believe removing options & power is always a bad thing. I want to make my opinion on that clear, and contest your language implying otherwise.


TWF is just.. Dare I say it - horribly horribly designed (my personal opinion should there be any doubt) the fact that it dosent work with multiple features, AND dosent scale with extra attacks showcases this.

What's lots of things? Do elaborate.Sorry I was using short hand for "anything that uses a bonus action", so yeah, that's some hyperbole. Good calling out right there. It *does* conflict with anything that uses a bonus action, but some are more powerful (Quickened Spell), and plenty are apples and oranges (Cunning Action).


You still haven't addressed my claim from earlier: a feat that compliments the most damage dealing weapons, on the most melee damaging class should add up to the highest melee dpr in the game right, I mean what else should?It's one thing for an option to buff up something, but when it crosses the line to being required instead of an option, it's overpowered and needs to be corrected. IMO.


The GWM 'problem ' (and I don't agree that this is a problem) is only evident on the barb, for other classes it isn't a clear cut winner. Well yeah it deals more damg than S&B but I hope we can agree that it should.Oh for sure, GWM is far more balanced for classes that can't regularly get advantage. (which includes Battlemaster Fighters using Trip btw). The fix to that feat would be best directed at changing the way the -5/+10 works in conjunction with Advantage.

PAM's bonus action attack is just stupid though. It poaches all over TWF's advantages, along with things like Frenzy and even GWM's bonus attack, while retaining all the benefits of 2H weapons. It's already providing tons of polearm specific goodness even without that. (Edit: mechanically stupid. It's pretty clear to me that it got stuck in mechanically to satisfy a fluff thing for Polearms hitting with the butt end.)

[Theodoxus]

(Edit: mechanically stupid. It's pretty clear to me that it got stuck in mechanically to satisfy a fluff thing for Polearms hitting with the butt end.)

Agreed - though it should be considered an off-hand attack (preferably against an adjacent target - or at the very least, only within 5' of the user), with all the damage limitations that implies. It'd be a good tax to require either multiclassing, or a Champion to use both FS on GWS and TWS to maximize polearm mastery. It also wouldn't step so hard on Frenzy's toes.


ETA

Oh for sure, GWM is far more balanced for classes that can't regularly get advantage. (which includes Battlemaster Fighters using Trip btw). The fix to that feat would be best directed at changing the way the -5/+10 works in conjunction with Advantage.

Do you think that using GWM and SS's "power attack" negating advantage would be fair? It wouldn't impose disad, but it wouldn't take 'advantage' of advantage. Think of it as the overpowering strike its supposed to be - such that control is lost on the strike. I can justify it for myself, though it's mostly fluff... hmm... as a barbarian, would I use it? It would limit the use/value of reckless attack, but then, you get either a lot of damage, or consistent damage that's moderately less...

[Yuroch Kern]

Back on thread, has anyone actually played a frenzy barbarian? Was it fun? Sometimes a weakness can add fun tension, and it's certainly fitting with the standard beserker narrative to be truly sapped after going nuts.

Yeah, it's a nuke. Being able to use it every Rage would be severely unbalancing. As a DM facing one, having the Dragonborn in my game watch himself helps me to not up the ante. A lot of fun though, and very versatile. I'm gonna cringe a little when he gets GWM, but he's earned it.

[Tanarii]

Do you think that using GWM and SS's "power attack" negating advantage would be fair? It wouldn't impose disad, but it wouldn't take 'advantage' of advantage.
I think, for purposes of this thread, it's allowing Frenzy with an Str ASI to not be worse than PAM for Berserker Barbarians that's the relevant thing to adjust. Frenzy and GWM have synergy, just as PAM & GWM do. Frenzy and PAM don't (for damage).

Technically Frenzy is better than PAM, for straight up DPR. The problem is the DPR increase is minor and for 1-2 Rage per day before exhaustion is excessive, vs getting to use PAM all the time, plus other benefits. So there is a trade off to select PAM. OTOH you have to also consider PAM makes Totem a much more attractive choice.

Honestly, if you're going to assume PAM is an option as is, which is probably more realistic than trying to nerf it or ban it (intentional negative language), Frenzy could probably be safely buffed by allowing SR to eliminate a level of exhaustion. That'd allow 3-4 uses of Frenzy instead. Maybe gate that by level. Something like 1/day at 11 (ie 2-3 frenzy) and 2/day at 17 (3-4 frenzy).

[Skylivedk]

I think, for purposes of this thread, it's allowing Frenzy with an Str ASI to not be worse than PAM for Berserker Barbarians that's the relevant thing to adjust. Frenzy and GWM have synergy, just as PAM & GWM do. Frenzy and PAM don't (for damage).

Technically Frenzy is better than PAM, for straight up DPR. The problem is the DPR increase is minor and for 1-2 Rage per day before exhaustion is excessive, vs getting to use PAM all the time, plus other benefits. So there is a trade off to select PAM. OTOH you have to also consider PAM makes Totem a much more attractive choice.

Honestly, if you're going to assume PAM is an option as is, which is probably more realistic than trying to nerf it or ban it (intentional negative language), Frenzy could probably be safely buffed by allowing SR to eliminate a level of exhaustion. That'd allow 3-4 uses of Frenzy instead. Maybe gate that by level. Something like 1/day at 11 (ie 2-3 frenzy) and 2/day at 17 (3-4 frenzy).

While I'm in general opposed to making nerfs (not meant negatively; using dictionary definition of "making an option less attractive") to martial abilities, I am a little concerned about PAM.

I was thinking of removing the bonus attack and giving it some kind of bonus when it triggers the reaction attack instead.

Why? Simply: PAM gives more utility and CC than GWM. Hence it should (on pretty much all classes) give less damage. That isn't the case currently (based on Kryx' math).

Back to original topic:

I am highly opposed to nerfing other feats for martial classes to accommodate the Frenzy Barbarian. IMO, the Frenzy Barbarian is weak and I'd much rather give it a damage buff related to raging that isn't taking the bonus action slot. I haven't run the calculations, but some dice should do the trick.

Besides that some kind of recuperating mechanism (removing CON mod exhaustion levels pr. long rest?) would also be interesting.

[Zalabim]

Higher strength and berserker is generally doing more damage over lower strength and PAM. PAM is pretty well balanced against pure strength. The feat relies on getting as many extra reaction attacks as possible, and without both its features wouldn't be worthwhile to a barbarian, with or without the berserker path.

GWM has a much larger impact, both in being noticeably worse when you don't have advantage and being noticeably better when you do have advantage. As a barbarian, you get a lot more control over those situations.

The trade-off to take either feat is usually on the front end, by taking variant human, or on the back end by losing out on some defensive ASI or feat. The unspecialized barbarian can always jump on a horse with a lance and shield and wreck things, or throw javelins or hand axes at the start of an awkward combat, while those taking feats aren't as flexible.

Now, if your campaign rarely has downtime, there's something to be said about fixing Frenzy's exhaustion accumulation even if you think the power:cost ratio is normally fine. I'm not sure I like losing out on ability checks when you use your extra combat power1, even if you only use it sparingly, so rather than come up with ways to cure exhaustion better, I'd just replace exhaustion with a harder limit on Frenzies used. Either half of your rages per day can be frenzy, or one per short rest, or even a flat two per day. I like the theme of a berserker being able to frenzy to death, but I don't see the mechanical balance to it.

1Casters can spend spell slots on either combat or non-combat, but it's not like they lose access to non-combat cantrips when they've exhausted their spell slots.


Remember this is the 3rd level archetype feature, it's suppose to be strong, as in class defining strong.

I'm not sure that's really generally true, or even specifically true for barbarians. I would say that the level 3 feature is supposed to be class defining but not really strong. It should have a strong flavor, but is often not the most powerful feature.


I haven't been able to verify, but I suspect that the barbarian (specifically berserker path, but probably the whole class) was finalized before the feats were. I know ranger came out long past the barbarian - and the horde breaker definitely feels like power creep. Before feat support with bonus actions, Frenzy was probably really special and powerful.

My speculation is that combat feats were designed to be used mostly by fighters. Fighters were intentionally given more weapon attacks as a feature so they'd scale better with magic weapons than any other class. I could see feats intentionally using actions that fighters don't use much so that fighters also scale better with feats. They do get more ASI, and have less stat reliance, than the other classes. There has to be an expectation that fighters will use feats more, so it's no stretch to design feats to be used primarily by fighters.


But, it was cast in stone and locked away when BAs become more blase. Now, exhaustion is crippling, to the point that people are constantly brewing up new ways to handle it. It's an unnecessary mechanic. So much so, that I think Frenzy, with the BA requirement, is perfectly fine without the exhaustion. It is essentially multi-attack for a player character, with the small caveat that it requires a bonus action to get that second attack in.

Giving a ranger an extra attack on a different target, sometimes, is not the same as giving a barbarian an extra attack on any target all of the time. That's why they have different costs.

[Lollerabe]

Always true - depends on personal opinion, as a rule of thumb? Yeah the lvl 3 feature is often class defining and strong (I'm not talking about classes that chose archetype at 1st lvl fx wiz and cleric) quick rundown:

Beastmaster - lvl 3 gets a pet (the feature for the entire archetype)

Paladin - gains oath, which unlocks oath features and domain. Changes said Paladins entire playstyle.

Battlemaster - gains supp dice, every other mechanical increase uses those as their foundation.

Totembarb: unlocks the 1st totem feature, half damg from every damg source (except psy) or advantage to all melee companions near you.

I could go on, they are indeed strong and often the rest of archetypes features revolves around the one gained at 3rd lvl.
The frenzy barbs 'strong' feature however isn't strong, and as this isn't a fluff feature, it isn't all that debateable.
If you have PAM the difference between a butt end attack and a frenzy attack is 3 damg avg - for an exhaustion level.
That is mechanically speaking horrible.
As I said before even IF you removed the exhaustion cost entirely, it would still only be a decent feature, in that case it would obviously be a lot better with GWM than with PAM,but it would still be restricted by rages pr day and it's requirement of a bonus action.

So as I suggested earlier: IF you are trying to fix the feature through home brew, why just not give the feature a complete overhaul then? As I said I haven't done the math on my earlier suggestion yet, but it seems in line with other 3rd level archetype features, granted that you don't remove the exhaustion penalty entirely.

As the feature is by raw, it has horrible synergy with every single weapon style there is assuming you use feats.
So instead of nerfing/removing 2-3 feats (and also just accepting that a frenzy barb won't ever dual wield, because why would he) rework the feature. It's that simple.
Or you can play with the RAW frenzy barb and pretend the archetype isn't hot garbage, in which cause you must have expertise in both diplomacy and deception + permanent advantage on your rolls.

[Finieous]

I've played one session with my 3rd level berserker, a three-fight adventuring day. It rocked, but it was an ideal situation and just one session, so I'm not going to make too much of it. I've said before I think the path is fine and bear totem resistance to non B/P/S/Psychic is overrated in typical campaigns (still good, just overrated). HOWEVER...

I have removed -5/+10 from the bonus action attack with PAM in my campaign. I think this is a minor nerf that balances the excessive synergy between the two feats, but I've yet to see it in actual play.

[Yuroch Kern]

Well, after talking with some of my players, and re-examining GWM...yeah, I'm gonna overhaul it. It is my opinion that class features should be more unique than things everyone can get, like feats. So after a couple of test sessions, I changed the bonus action to attack or shove. Also, if you push with a shove while Frenzied, you can add 5 feet to the distance. As far as Exhaustion, it was changed to "at the end of every turn while Frenzied, your maximum hp is reduced by 1. This is a psychic effect that does not maintain a Rage/Frenzy. At 15th level, I changed Persistant Rage to Deathless Rage: In addition to Rage only ending when desired, the Barbarian is no longer subject to effects that reduce maximum hp." The point of all this was to promote more options and give a more abatable drawback that eventually goes away at a high enough level. The hp drain has worked a lot better than exhaustion so far, and the extra option for the attack has found a lot of use. Thoughts?

[Zman]

Honestly, you can just remove the exhaustion tax. Frenzy once per day just doesn't cut it. If you want, you can add effects of one level of exhaustion i.e. Disadvantage on ability checks until you take a short rest.

[SharkForce]

you could use an attack to shove anyways, but the rest of it sounds interesting.

[Yuroch Kern]

A strict reading of the ability was 'a single melee weapon attack'. I got rid of the ambiguity so it functions kinda like Extra Attack on a bonus action.

[Giant2005]

You are all making this much more complicated than it needs to be. Simply add another option for the payment of the use of Frenzy: make Frenzy function at either the price of a level of exhaustion, or an additional expenditure of one of the Barbarian's Rage uses; player's choice at the time of activation.

[N810]

^ I rather like that idea.
Could totally work with that. :D

[Diebo]

I have to agree that exhaustion would prevent me from playing a Frenzy barbarian, and I'm too old-school to embrace a totem dwarf barbarian backstory.

I like CON check to see if you are exhausted. Maybe DC 20; hard early levels, but as you gain proficiency and more rages easier to pass. Still have risk and planning to think about.

Another idea: How about you are Winded for 1 minute after frenzy, instead of exhausted. Result: disadvantage on attack rolls for one minute. You can mitigate by reckless attack for advantage, but it would only negate the disadvantage, and you'd open yourself up to more damage.

[NewDM]

I have to agree that exhaustion would prevent me from playing a Frenzy barbarian, and I'm too old-school to embrace a totem dwarf barbarian backstory.

I like CON check to see if you are exhausted. Maybe DC 20; hard early levels, but as you gain proficiency and more rages easier to pass. Still have risk and planning to think about.

Another idea: How about you are Winded for 1 minute after frenzy, instead of exhausted. Result: disadvantage on attack rolls for one minute. You can mitigate by reckless attack for advantage, but it would only negate the disadvantage, and you'd open yourself up to more damage.

I like this one the best.

[Giant2005]

Another idea: How about you are Winded for 1 minute after frenzy, instead of exhausted. Result: disadvantage on attack rolls for one minute. You can mitigate by reckless attack for advantage, but it would only negate the disadvantage, and you'd open yourself up to more damage.

That would be a penalty that is virtually ignorable. By the time Frenzy ends the combat is very, very likely to already be over making the penalty non-existent.

[Visser3SansTheP]

Why not just make frenzy actually worth the exhaustion cost?

Choose between having it ignore resistance/immunity to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage if you attack with advantage and have each hit automatically cleave to an extra target. Bam, worth the price of admission.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Frenzy really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If they had just said "you can only use Frenzy once per long rest" than no one would have bat an eye at it but essentially that's what it is. When you are in a module or a campaign, you know when you are doing the Big Battle for that session, and you just use it then because you know you are going to do a long rest after it along with all your spellcasters that just unloaded all their spell slots in the big battle, etc.

[R.Shackleford]

Frenzy really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If they had just said "you can only use Frenzy once per long rest" than no one would have bat an eye at it but essentially that's what it is. When you are in a module or a campaign, you know when you are doing the Big Battle for that session, and you just use it then because you know you are going to do a long rest after it along with all your spellcasters that just unloaded all their spell slots in the big battle, etc.

If you could do it 1/rest then you couldn't kill yourself with it.

Not many things cause exhaustion, frenzy is a fast way to kill oneself.

About the only other ability that might kill yourself is a Wild Sorcerer's Fireball. And that is suuuuper rare.

[Rysto]

If you only do it once per rest you'll never kill yourself, though. I don't see how the option of doing it more times when you really need it is a bad thing.

[R.Shackleford]

If you only do it once per rest you'll never kill yourself, though. I don't see how the option of doing it more times when you really need it is a bad thing.

Finishing a long rest reduces your exhaustion by 1.

So for a level 3 feature you can only use it 1/day?

[Misterwhisper]

Just do not call it "exhaustion" just say that for the next (1 hour - (10X con bonus) minutes, you take disadvantage on all Str, Dex, and Con rolls, after the frenzy ends.

Done and easy.

You frenzy and have 18 Con. You have disadvantage on physical rolls for 20 mins.

[R.Shackleford]

Just do not call it "exhaustion" just say that for the next (1 hour - (10X con bonus) minutes, you take disadvantage on all Str, Dex, and Con rolls, after the frenzy ends.

Done and easy.

You frenzy and have 18 Con. You have disadvantage on physical rolls for 20 mins.

With an 18 - 24 Con I would expect exhaustion to not be as much of a factor as if someone had a 14 Con.

Not just getting over it faster but not getting exhausted in the first place.

That's like saying LeBron James and I are running suicides and we both get winded at the same time... But he stops being winded in 18 minutes and I stop being winded in 40... Why the he'll was he winded in the first place?

[DanyBallon]

Frenzy really isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. If they had just said "you can only use Frenzy once per long rest" than no one would have bat an eye at it but essentially that's what it is. When you are in a module or a campaign, you know when you are doing the Big Battle for that session, and you just use it then because you know you are going to do a long rest after it along with all your spellcasters that just unloaded all their spell slots in the big battle, etc.

I believe the reason they tied it to exhaustion instead of 1/long rest, is that if you need to go overboard, you could, but you do it at great risk for you health. It's a typical trope, but some people think that if a feature can be use as you wish, of if a feature has any drawback, then it is useless and/or bad design.

As far as I'm concern I'm totally fine with it.

[SharkForce]

the simplest fix I've heard was to simply make frenzy cost 2 uses of rage.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I believe the reason they tied it to exhaustion instead of 1/long rest, is that if you need to go overboard, you could, but you do it at great risk for you health. It's a typical trope, but some people think that if a feature can be use as you wish, of if a feature has any drawback, then it is useless and/or bad design.

As far as I'm concern I'm totally fine with it.

Agreed. It's a perfectly good ability, and if you want to do it more than one time a day you just need to have a cleric around, no biggie. The thing that makes people pissy about it as well is the fact that the Bear Spirit ability for the Totem Barbarian gives you resistance to all damage except psychic during rages, which is ridiculously OP.

To balance the two, they should have made the Bear Spirit ability for damage resistance also cost an exhaustion point, or made both of them just something you could do 1/long rest.

[DanyBallon]

the simplest fix I've heard was to simply make frenzy cost 2 uses of rage.

Do you mean, it cost you an additional rage, or 2 more? if it's the later, you won't be able to use frenzy twice until you can rage 6/day (enter rage cost 1 use + frenzy cost 2 uses = 3 uses needed in order to use frenzy).

[R.Shackleford]

I played in a one shot where the DM had the Barbarian use of HD in order to frenzy.

Each additional time you frenzy you use up a greater number of HD.

Something like...

1/ Day = 1 HD
2/ Day = 3 HD

And so on.

Seemed to work out well

[DanyBallon]

Agreed. It's a perfectly good ability, and if you want to do it more than one time a day you just need to have a cleric around, no biggie. The thing that makes people pissy about it as well is the fact that the Bear Spirit ability for the Totem Barbarian gives you resistance to all damage except psychic during rages, which is ridiculously OP.

And even without Cleric, 1st level of exhaustion is only disadvantage to ability check (I know initiative is an ability check), 2nd level halve your speed (now it get more serious), 3rd level disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws (by this point you should really consider to take a few day of rest), 4th level, half of HP max (I really don't know why you pushed yourself to this extreme as getting a bonus action for 1 min isn't useful when you have disadvantage on your attack rolls).

So most Berserker will go in frenzy and suffer from disadvantage on ability check until a good night of rest. Some time they'll need to push themselves and get their speed reduce by half, after a good night of rest they'll still have disadvantage on ability check, but honestly, you can go like this for a few days if needed (I know I could, anyway I always roll 3 on any ability checks :smallbiggrin:). Only on rare occasions, or circumstances, you will end up with a 3rd exhaustion level.

Also, even a dumb berserker will know better that get into frenzy if you are in a middle of a desert, starving and haven't had a drop of water for a day. It's as if a wizard would cast a spell in a city where magic is punishable by death, and is currently surround by a group of city guards. You can do it, but it's risky.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

And even without Cleric, 1st level of exhaustion is only disadvantage to ability check (I know initiative is an ability check), 2nd level halve your speed (now it get more serious), 3rd level disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws (by this point you should really consider to take a few day of rest), 4th level, half of HP max (I really don't know why you pushed yourself to this extreme as getting a bonus action for 1 min isn't useful when you have disadvantage on your attack rolls).

So most Berserker will go in frenzy and suffer from disadvantage on ability check until a good night of rest. Some time they'll need to push themselves and get their speed reduce by half, after a good night of rest they'll still have disadvantage on ability check, but honestly, you can go like this for a few days if needed (I know I could, anyway I always roll 3 on any ability checks :smallbiggrin:). Only on rare occasions, or circumstances, you will end up with a 3rd exhaustion level.

Also, even a dumb berserker will know better that get into frenzy if you are in a middle of a desert, starving and haven't had a drop of water for a day. It's as if a wizard would cast a spell in a city where magic is punishable by death, and is currently surround by a group of city guards. You can do it, but it's risky.

Yep, and with the amount of damage a Barbarian can put, frenzy is really strong, I can understand how the game designers wanted to limit it a bit. If you play a Berserker smart, it's not really a problem.

[R.Shackleford]

Yep, and with the amount of damage a Barbarian can put, frenzy is really strong, I can understand how the game designers wanted to limit it a bit. If you play a Berserker smart, it's not really a problem.

Meh, damage is overratted.

Everyone can do enough damage to keep up with the game. Doing extreme levels of damage only helps during combat, not in exploration and social. Combat is a big aspect but even then, you have a party to take on enemies and classes do quite well on a base level for doing damage (be it at-will, encounter, or daily).

[Slipperychicken]

Everyone can do enough damage to keep up with the game. Doing extreme levels of damage only helps during combat, not in exploration and social. Combat is a big aspect but even then, you have a party to take on enemies and classes do quite well on a base level for doing damage (be it at-will, encounter, or daily).

If you can defeat enemies faster, that means your party doesn't need to spend as many resources on fights. That frees them up for doing more exploration stuff, and also lets your party get more done between rests.

[R.Shackleford]

If you can defeat enemies faster, that means your party doesn't need to spend as many resources on fights. That frees them up for doing more exploration stuff, and also lets your party get more done between rests.

Except that if you are doing way more damage than your allies the GM will compensate for that so that you will be challenged or any other number of reasons.

Staying closer to the pack and going for more utility will keep this from happening.

One shot a boss and you won't be doing it again so you effectively wasted choices in getting more damage AND screw over the party by making the bosses have more defenses and HP.

[Foxhound438]

Meh, damage is overratted.

Everyone can do enough damage to keep up with the game. Doing extreme levels of damage only helps during combat, not in exploration and social. Combat is a big aspect but even then, you have a party to take on enemies and classes do quite well on a base level for doing damage (be it at-will, encounter, or daily).

problem there being that combat is the most common thing that will kill you. All the utility in the world won't help when you're fighting a 3x deadly encounter. Sure, you can argue that utility features could have prevented the encounter from being that hard, but if another party member decides to do something irrational or unintentional that could get You killed in combat, you'll be hurting.

[R.Shackleford]

Except that if you are doing way more damage than your allies the GM will compensate for that so that you will be challenged or any other number of reasons.

Staying closer to the pack and going for more utility will keep this from happening.

One shot a boss and you won't be doing it again so you effectively wasted choices in getting more damage AND screw over the party by making the bosses have more defenses and HP.


problem there being that combat is the most common thing that will kill you. All the utility in the world won't help when you're fighting a 3x deadly encounter. Sure, you can argue that utility features could have prevented the encounter from being that hard, but if another party member decides to do something irrational or unintentional that could get You killed in combat, you'll be hurting.

What I already said from before.

[DanyBallon]

Except that if you are doing way more damage than your allies the GM will compensate for that so that you will be challenged or any other number of reasons.

Staying closer to the pack and going for more utility will keep this from happening.

One shot a boss and you won't be doing it again so you effectively wasted choices in getting more damage AND screw over the party by making the bosses have more defenses and HP.

I don't think a DM will compensate for a feature that will be used most of the time once per day. It as if a DM would boost every encounter becaus a fighter can use Action Surge...

[R.Shackleford]

I don't think a DM will compensate for a feature that will be used most of the time once per day. It as if a DM would boost every encounter becaus a fighter can use Action Surge...

One of the type of threads I see most (not just here), from DMs, is the "help my player is taking over the game" and is about a player walking through the encounters and doing a lot of damage.

Doing big numbers scares a lot of DMs and players (who aren't doing big numbers), especially when said DMs don't know how to use dynamic encounters.

So yeah, you boost your damage too much and DMs will compensate for it, which just hurts he party as now they can't keep up as well due to not being as damage focused.

[DanyBallon]

One of the type of threads I see most (not just here), from DMs, is the "help my player is taking over the game" and is about a player walking through the encounters and doing a lot of damage.

Doing big numbers scares a lot of DMs and players (who aren't doing big numbers), especially when said DMs don't know how to use dynamic encounters.

So yeah, you boost your damage too much and DMs will compensate for it, which just hurts he party as now they can't keep up as well due to not being as damage focused.

In the case where a character is constantly doing much more damage than any one else, it can be problematic, but a berserker using Frenzy can hardly be considered doing "constantly more damage"

[kaoskonfety]

One of the type of threads I see most (not just here), from DMs, is the "help my player is taking over the game" and is about a player walking through the encounters and doing a lot of damage.

Doing big numbers scares a lot of DMs and players (who aren't doing big numbers), especially when said DMs don't know how to use dynamic encounters.

So yeah, you boost your damage too much and DMs will compensate for it, which just hurts he party as now they can't keep up as well due to not being as damage focused.

idly browsing this thread cause I'm in the "Frenzy is a fine class feature - yes you can kill yourself with it: so don't do that? You can opt to *not* do that right?" camp. But I can't help but notice we have somehow gone from "it's crap and will kill you for using it" to "the DM will have to up the average challenges to compensate for it" for why its bad. And this makes me laugh.

[Arial Black]

I would do this: He can lose a level of exhaustion in exchange for 1 hit die at a short rest.

In 5E, 'hit dice' represent your body's ability to recover from various stresses. In fact, even though a long rest restores ALL of your hit points (so that you can be in a full body cast when you go to sleep but are totally uninjured when you awake!), you do not regain all your hit dice!

Therefore, using hit dice to lessen exhaustion seems appropriate. Trouble is, you can spend more than one hit dice per short rest, and that might be too effective in lessening the penalty.

How about this: a berserker can spend a maximum of one hit dice per short rest to eliminate one level of exhaustion that has been acquired by using the Frenzy ability.

He can still only Frenzy once per short rest without accumulating penalties that will actually affect him, but he will be able to use that feature reasonably often. He can also still Frenzy himself to death if he's not careful.

Thoughts?

[DanyBallon]

In 5E, 'hit dice' represent your body's ability to recover from various stresses. In fact, even though a long rest restores ALL of your hit points (so that you can be in a full body cast when you go to sleep but are totally uninjured when you awake!), you do not regain all your hit dice!

Therefore, using hit dice to lessen exhaustion seems appropriate. Trouble is, you can spend more than one hit dice per short rest, and that might be too effective in lessening the penalty.

How about this: a berserker can spend a maximum of one hit dice per short rest to eliminate one level of exhaustion that has been acquired by using the Frenzy ability.

He can still only Frenzy once per short rest without accumulating penalties that will actually affect him, but he will be able to use that feature reasonably often. He can also still Frenzy himself to death if he's not careful.

Thoughts?

This could be a good compromise. However, I fear that if the beserker can use Frenzy more often, it will definately lead to DM uping challenges to accomodate for the higher damage output.

[JakOfAllTirades]

idly browsing this thread cause I'm in the "Frenzy is a fine class feature - yes you can kill yourself with it: so don't do that? You can opt to *not* do that right?" camp. But I can't help but notice we have somehow gone from "it's crap and will kill you for using it" to "the DM will have to up the average challenges to compensate for it" for why its bad. And this makes me laugh.

Seriously? If that's the problem, the DM will also have to make encounters more difficult due to the Paladin's Divine Smite, the Evoker's (maximized, no resistance) Fireball, and the Fighter's 3 attacks (6 on a surge) using GWF. The bonus attack from Frenzy isn't there to break the game - it's there so the Berserker can keep up with the other classes. And on a once or twice a day basis, it does so. If the exhaustion rules are "fixed" so the Berserker gets to Frenzy at will, then yes, it could be a game breaker, and the DM might have to do something about it.

TL:DR - don't fix it; it's not broken.

[LordVonDerp]

This could be a good compromise. However, I fear that if the beserker can use Frenzy more often, it will definately lead to DM uping challenges to accomodate for the higher damage output.
It's 3 extra damage per turn, not a big deal.

[DanyBallon]

It's 3 extra damage per turn, not a big deal.

I haven't done the math, but I think being able to swing a great sword or a great axe as a bonus action (+ strength mod to damage) is a bit more than 3 extra damage.

[Slipperychicken]

It's 3 extra damage per turn, not a big deal.

I think he means the frenzy bonus attack, not the rage damage bonus.

[LordVonDerp]

I think he means the frenzy bonus attack, not the rage damage bonus.
I know.
1d4 ~ 2.5 damage
1d10 ~ 5.5 damage
1d12 ~ 6.5 damage

So it's an increase of about 3 dmage per turn.

[obeseboywonder]

I always see people mentioning ways of buffing Frenzy, but no one ever suggests treating it like the Relentless Rage ability.

Frenzy: When your rage ends make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, you gain one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a long rest the DC resets to 10.

DC 10 might be too low though, maybe make it 15.

[Slipperychicken]

I know.
1d4 ~ 2.5 damage
1d10 ~ 5.5 damage
1d12 ~ 6.5 damage

So it's an increase of about 3 dmage per turn.

That would be true if the barbarian's ability modifier was +0, his weapon was a d6 or d4, and he wasn't benefiting from his rage damage bonus on the attack. When you include modifiers, it's more like his damage die plus 5 or 6 (comes out to 10 to 11 with a d10 weapon). It increases further if he happens to be using GWM or has other bonuses such as a magic weapon.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

That would be true if the barbarian's ability modifier was +0, his weapon was a d6 or d4, and he wasn't benefiting from his rage damage bonus on the attack. When you include modifiers, it's more like his damage die plus 5 or 6 (comes out to 10 to 11 with a d10 weapon). It increases further if he happens to be using GWM or has other bonuses such as a magic weapon.

THIS. With frenzy, the Barbarian is doing 50% more damage a turn (if he already has two attack actions), that's a major amount considering how much damage he's normally putting out during a rage.

[LordVonDerp]

That would be true if the barbarian's ability modifier was +0, his weapon was a d6 or d4, and he wasn't benefiting from his rage damage bonus on the attack. When you include modifiers, it's more like his damage die plus 5 or 6 (comes out to 10 to 11 with a d10 weapon). It increases further if he happens to be using GWM or has other bonuses such as a magic weapon.

Except that all of those apply with or without frenzy.

[LordVonDerp]

THIS. With frenzy, the Barbarian is doing 50% more damage a turn (if he already has two attack actions), that's a major amount considering how much damage he's normally putting out during a rage.

Barbarian with frenzy
1d12+8
1d12+8
1d12+8

Barbarian without frenzy
1d10+8
1d10+8
1d4+8

Not seeing a huge difference.

[obeseboywonder]

Barbarian with frenzy
1d12+8
1d12+8
1d12+8

Barbarian without frenzy
1d10+8
1d10+8
1d4+8

Not seeing a huge difference.

Opportunity Cost. The PM Barb has a feat that isn't being taken into account with the Frenzy Barb. Add another +1 to hit and damage for the Frenzy attacks, and it's a more fair comparison.

[R.Shackleford]

Barbarian with frenzy
1d12+8
1d12+8
1d12+8

Barbarian without frenzy
1d10+8
1d10+8
1d4+8

Not seeing a huge difference.

There really isn't a big difference but people freak out about damage. Remember if you do all the damage then you are the most powerful awesome thing since slice bread.

[SharkForce]

Do you mean, it cost you an additional rage, or 2 more? if it's the later, you won't be able to use frenzy twice until you can rage 6/day (enter rage cost 1 use + frenzy cost 2 uses = 3 uses needed in order to use frenzy).

2 total.

it's something you won't do lightly (until level 20, but quite frankly i don't care about level 20), but not something you try to avoid unless you're absolutely certain you need it. or, in other words, use it for big fights, don't worry about it for regular fights, and now you don't need to spend a feat on polearm master and you don't have to use a halberd/glaive.

[R.Shackleford]

Now that I think about it...

Why the hell is Rage a per long rest mechanic to begin with?

I've never liked that.

[JoeJ]

Now that I think about it...

Why the hell is Rage a per long rest mechanic to begin with?

I've never liked that.

I would expect that Rage would use a lot of energy, which would be replenished by resting.

However, I do think that the basic mechanic of resting to recover abilities would be hugely improved if every rest ability just drew from a common Fatigue pool that got replenished when the character rests. Then I wouldn't have to scratch my head to try and explain how a Battlemaster/Barbarian can be too tired to use any more maneuvers, but not too tired to rage.

[R.Shackleford]

I would expect that Rage would use a lot of energy, which would be replenished by resting.

However, I do think that the basic mechanic of resting to recover abilities would be hugely improved if every rest ability just drew from a common Fatigue pool that got replenished when the character rests. Then I wouldn't have to scratch my head to try and explain how a Battlemaster/Barbarian can be too tired to use any more maneuvers, but not too tired to rage.

What you get out of rage isn't all that impressive for needing a long rest to regain.

I could see a daily limit on totem/subclass abilities but base rage... I don't see it as a daily ability.

[Slipperychicken]

Now that I think about it...

Why the hell is Rage a per long rest mechanic to begin with?

I've never liked that.

I agree. I'd prefer to have it around 1 or 2 per short rest, or just not a limited ability at all.


I feel the same way about most martial powers. It just doesn't make any sense to have them limited like that. If it's supposed to be exhaustion limiting people, then that should be a unified mechanic; everyone would get so much energy or mana or whatever to use on special powers, and you could use that to tell when people are too tired to keep using their special techniques.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Barbarian with frenzy
1d12+8
1d12+8
1d12+8

Barbarian without frenzy
1d10+8
1d10+8
1d4+8

Not seeing a huge difference.

Now I'm confused. What is the 1d4+8 attack coming from in the non-frenzy action?

[Rysto]

Now I'm confused. What is the 1d4+8 attack coming from in the non-frenzy action?

Polearm Master I presume.

[R.Shackleford]

I agree. I'd prefer to have it around 1 or 2 per short rest, or just not a limited ability at all.


I feel the same way about most martial powers. It just doesn't make any sense to have them limited like that. If it's supposed to be exhaustion limiting people, then that should be a unified mechanic; everyone would get so much energy or mana or whatever to use on special powers, and you could use that to tell when people are too tired to keep using their special techniques.

Hell, if you divorce damage from the battle master maneuvers they could be at-will (mostly, some might not work without some tinkering).

If you divorced the third level feature of the barbarian from rage, though still need rage to use it, you could make rage at-will.

Rage 1/Short Rest
+ Damage Boost
+ Advantage in Str and Con checks
+ As you level up you get more uses per short rest.

Frenzy or Totem 1/Long Rest
+ Last for 10 minutes
+ If you lose rage but then reenter rage before time is up you can keep using the feature.
+ As you level up you get more uses per long rest.

Hell, really you could make rage at-will but able to be broken. I mean, advantage on strength checks isn't as good as expertise and the bonus damage isn't anything others don't get almost at-will.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Polearm Master I presume.

Polearm Master is not for Conan. Great Weapon Master for Barbarian or GTFO.
"You want to learn how to fight? Learn with a real weapon, not some toothpick!"

[Rhaegar14]

Polearm Master is not for Conan. Great Weapon Master for Barbarian or GTFO.
"You want to learn how to fight? Learn with a real weapon, not some toothpick!"

Glaives and halberds are Heavy, Two-Handed weapons that get the full benefit of Great Weapon Master as well as Polearm Master.

[SharkForce]

What you get out of rage isn't all that impressive for needing a long rest to regain.

I could see a daily limit on totem/subclass abilities but base rage... I don't see it as a daily ability.

rage makes you twice as hard to kill. the number of times per day that you "should" be able to withstand being turned into a pincushion by archers, or smashed around by a dragon, is zero. you are literally becoming twice as tough for most purposes, and you already started off pretty danged tough to begin with.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Glaives and halberds are Heavy, Two-Handed weapons that get the full benefit of Great Weapon Master as well as Polearm Master.

That's fine but that's not my point.

[Slipperychicken]

rage makes you twice as hard to kill. the number of times per day that you "should" be able to withstand being turned into a pincushion by archers, or smashed around by a dragon, is zero. you are literally becoming twice as tough for most purposes, and you already started off pretty danged tough to begin with.

You say that as if the internet RPG community cares about anything other than short-term damage output.

[recapdrake]

Really though frenzy path is a lot better than people give it credit for. I have a guy in my playgroup who this is his first time so he comes to me for a lot of help and he's playing a frenzy barbarian. What I told him was this: "Frenzy barbarian is cool because while its okay at taking out trash mobs where it really shines is when it gets to a boss. You don't even touch the frenzy rage until you find a big bad dude that you are worried might kill you. Then you drop that and start slamming him into the ground."

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Really though frenzy path is a lot better than people give it credit for. I have a guy in my playgroup who this is his first time so he comes to me for a lot of help and he's playing a frenzy barbarian. What I told him was this: "Frenzy barbarian is cool because while its okay at taking out trash mobs where it really shines is when it gets to a boss. You don't even touch the frenzy rage until you find a big bad dude that you are worried might kill you. Then you drop that and start slamming him into the ground."

That's a good recommendation as boss battles tend to require a long rest for the party afterwards.

[Lombra]

Personally I think that we should look at the features contextualized in the class: barbarians are the toughest matial characters, they don't need to get a better extra attack from frenzy to be a good class. Frenzy is supposed to be used when needed, when the group or the life of the barbarian is in serious danger, not to mention that rage gives by itself a lot of benefits. People are mad because one ability in the berserker archetype is the one on which you have to ponder the most. I'd leave it like that.

[R.Shackleford]

rage makes you twice as hard to kill. the number of times per day that you "should" be able to withstand being turned into a pincushion by archers, or smashed around by a dragon, is zero. you are literally becoming twice as tough for most purposes, and you already started off pretty danged tough to begin with.

No.

Bear totem makes you twice as hard to kill. Rage just gives you resistance to b/p/s. And even then, bear totem has the same huge flaw that makes rage laughable as a long rest mechanic.

B/P/S is only 3 types of damage out of a ton of other types. If you are Fighting unintelligent creatures thisnisnnice but anything with half a brain cell will use acid, cold, fire, lightning, etc.. Or they will use spells like Command to cause Rage to end, not because they know rage will end but because command gets the barbarian the hell away from them.

I say you should have to rage for a specific number of rounds before it counts against your daily (or short rest) total. At first level this may be 2 rounds but at higher levels it may be at least 5 rounds.

[Skylivedk]

Polearm Master is not for Conan. Great Weapon Master for Barbarian or GTFO.
"You want to learn how to fight? Learn with a real weapon, not some toothpick!"

Unfortunately, frenzy also stacks really badly with ALL other mêlée fighting styles.

In a game with feats, it is currently really weak - not just because exhaustion levels are an expensive currency to deal in, but also because the feature doesn't synergise well with all your other bad-assery.

I suggest giving Frenzy barbarians:

a damage boost to attacks
a way of either eliminating exhaustion levels quicker, or avoiding them occasionally

[Zalabim]

Unfortunately, frenzy also stacks really badly with ALL other mêlée fighting styles.

If you're saying that frenzied, berserking, barbarians have little reason to use style in their fighting, then I'm not sure what needs to be fixed. It just looks like mechanics being used to enforce a particular theme.

[DanyBallon]

Unfortunately, frenzy also stack really badly with ALL mêlée fighting styles.


If you're saying that frenzied, berserking, barbarians have little reason to use style in their fighting, then I'm not sure what needs to be fixed. It just looks like mechanics being used to enforce a particular theme.


It when I read comments like the former that I think that sometimes Optimizing and Roleplaying are mutually exclusive, as they often dismiss typical character concept like the berserker barbarian because they are better mechanical option, but just don't feel like a typical barbarian wielding a great sword or a great axe.

Not that a barbarian wielding a polearm do not exist, due to the barbarian trope, but they shouldn't be the norm, like they seem to be if you listen only to optimizers.

[Professor Gnoll]

If you're saying that frenzied, berserking, barbarians have little reason to use style in their fighting, then I'm not sure what needs to be fixed. It just looks like mechanics being used to enforce a particular theme.
While it's a humorous observation, I think it's a little weird that you can't have a dual-wielding Berserker barbarian. Surely the idea of that hyper-fast frenzied rage lends itself to the idea of hacking away with, say, a pair of bloodied axes?
I know that I tend to associate dual-wielding with all-out attack and little heed for defence.

[R.Shackleford]

While it's a humorous observation, I think it's a little weird that you can't have a dual-wielding Berserker barbarian. Surely the idea of that hyper-fast frenzied rage lends itself to the idea of hacking away with, say, a pair of bloodied axes?
I know that I tend to associate dual-wielding with all-out attack and little heed for defence.

3e and 4e had TWF Barbarians as options. They weren't always the best of options but they were straight up awesome and fun.

I was disappointed in the 5e barbarian for multitude of reasons, one of which is no TWF support (whirling frenzy) or Charisma support (Thaneborn)

[NewDM]

Opportunity Cost. The PM Barb has a feat that isn't being taken into account with the Frenzy Barb. Add another +1 to hit and damage for the Frenzy attacks, and it's a more fair comparison.

If you are talking about GWM its quite a bit higher. If you are talking about PAM then you will lose damage if you are able to rage every time you fight.

Frenzy + GWM
1d12+18
1d12+18
1d12+18
total average 73.5

PAM + GWM
1d10+18
1d10+18
1d4+18
total average 67.5

There is a difference of 6 damage per round or 30 damage in the average 5 round encounter.


I agree. I'd prefer to have it around 1 or 2 per short rest, or just not a limited ability at all.


I feel the same way about most martial powers. It just doesn't make any sense to have them limited like that. If it's supposed to be exhaustion limiting people, then that should be a unified mechanic; everyone would get so much energy or mana or whatever to use on special powers, and you could use that to tell when people are too tired to keep using their special techniques.

I agree. In my SRD 5.0 OGL game I'm going to give everyone a pool of 'stamina' that they pull stuff from. Each character will get a maximum based on their Constitution score. Probably just use their Constitution score in points and every time they use a resource it takes a certain number of points. On a short rest they recover 1/4 of their constitution in stamina points. These points would power fighter maneuvers, barbarian rages, sorcerery points, Ki, arcane recovery and special features of wizards. Basically anything that would normally be a recovery on a short or long rest.



It when I read comments like the former that I think that sometimes Optimizing and Roleplaying are mutually exclusive, as they often dismiss typical character concept like the berserker barbarian because they are better mechanical option, but just don't feel like a typical barbarian wielding a great sword or a great axe.

Not that a barbarian wielding a polearm do not exist, due to the barbarian trope, but they shouldn't be the norm, like they seem to be if you listen only to optimizers.

If they didn't want everyone optimizing around one weapon, spell, or mechanic they should have made the others equally appealing. They didn't, so don't complain when people use the most effective option available. Even in game the characters are going to observe/hear rumors of certain weapons just being more effective than others.

[DanyBallon]

If they didn't want everyone optimizing around one weapon, spell, or mechanic they should have made the others equally appealing. They didn't, so don't complain when people use the most effective option available. Even in game the characters are going to observe/hear rumors of certain weapons just being more effective than others.

It's not because mechanically a weapon is better than an other that it make sense in the game world that this weapon is the default weapon. If its true that optimizing and roleplaying ain't mutually exclusive, then an optimizer that care fore roleplaying (and the fantasy world his character lives in) would more than often try to be the best within the typical trope parameters (i.e. trying to best optimize a berserker barbarian wielding a great axe). Unfortunately, that's not what I see on these boards, hence my rant.

[SharkForce]

No.

Bear totem makes you twice as hard to kill. Rage just gives you resistance to b/p/s. And even then, bear totem has the same huge flaw that makes rage laughable as a long rest mechanic.

B/P/S is only 3 types of damage out of a ton of other types. If you are Fighting unintelligent creatures thisnisnnice but anything with half a brain cell will use acid, cold, fire, lightning, etc.. Or they will use spells like Command to cause Rage to end, not because they know rage will end but because command gets the barbarian the hell away from them.

unless rampaging barbarians (of the class variety, not the culture variety) are a particular problem in an area, that's a load of bull.

sure, it isn't (almost) all types of damage unless you take the totem bear level 3 ability. having said that, b/p/s damage is the most common kind, and the great majority of monsters don't carry around the means to inflict every type of damage (or even alternate types of damage) with them just in case they run into barbarians. creatures that have lightning attacks will probably use them (because that's probably their default attack), but having half a brain cell does not entitle you to the magical equivalent of a taser on your person at all times. neither does having half a brain cell cause you to be able to use the command spell (or similar effects).

creatures that have access to special resources will use them. but there are many enemies that don't have batman's utility belt and are not prepared for every situation they come across. even against many enemies that could deal alternate damage types (say, fire from torches) it is rather unlikely that they'll just throw their swords to the ground because of one enemy and all start lighting torches so they can probably *still* only deal half as much damage (and not add proficiency to their attack rolls). frankly, if your barbarian being there forces every single intelligent enemy to stop using real weapons purely on the basis that they *might* encounter this barbarian and the barbarian *might* rage, well... if that's the effect of not having immunity to fire damage, then the bear totem barbarian can go suck an egg, 'cause i'd rather have the barbarian that isn't immune to fire damage in the party.

[R.Shackleford]

unless rampaging barbarians (of the class variety, not the culture variety) are a particular problem in an area, that's a load of bull.

sure, it isn't (almost) all types of damage unless you take the totem bear level 3 ability. having said that, b/p/s damage is the most common kind, and the great majority of monsters don't carry around the means to inflict every type of damage (or even alternate types of damage) with them just in case they run into barbarians. creatures that have lightning attacks will probably use them (because that's probably their default attack), but having half a brain cell does not entitle you to the magical equivalent of a taser on your person at all times. neither does having half a brain cell cause you to be able to use the command spell (or similar effects).

creatures that have access to special resources will use them. but there are many enemies that don't have batman's utility belt and are not prepared for every situation they come across. even against many enemies that could deal alternate damage types (say, fire from torches) it is rather unlikely that they'll just throw their swords to the ground because of one enemy and all start lighting torches so they can probably *still* only deal half as much damage (and not add proficiency to their attack rolls). frankly, if your barbarian being there forces every single intelligent enemy to stop using real weapons purely on the basis that they *might* encounter this barbarian and the barbarian *might* rage, well... if that's the effect of not having immunity to fire damage, then the bear totem barbarian can go suck an egg, 'cause i'd rather have the barbarian that isn't immune to fire damage in the party.

Cultist and other enemies have access to spells such as Command that will stop the barbarian from raging.

There are plenty of enemies that deal elemental damage.

It's only bull if all you throw at your players are goblins and other boring and stupid creatures from level 1 to mid teens.

[SharkForce]

Cultist and other enemies have access to spells such as Command that will stop the barbarian from raging.

There are plenty of enemies that deal elemental damage.

It's only bull if all you throw at your players are goblins and other boring and stupid creatures from level 1 to mid teens.

most enemies are not cultists. most enemies also don't deal elemental damage (certainly, there are some, but there are a lot more that don't). and even the ones that do deal elemental damage typically also deal physical damage of some form.

furthermore, the ability to deal elemental damage has absolutely nothing to do with the creature's intelligence. plenty of stupid creatures *can* deal elemental damage of some form, and plenty of intelligent creatures have no way of dealing intelligent damage. it is not remotely something you should expect to be completely countered in every situation.

[NewDM]

It's not because mechanically a weapon is better than an other that it make sense in the game world that this weapon is the default weapon. If its true that optimizing and roleplaying ain't mutually exclusive, then an optimizer that care fore roleplaying (and the fantasy world his character lives in) would more than often try to be the best within the typical trope parameters (i.e. trying to best optimize a berserker barbarian wielding a great axe). Unfortunately, that's not what I see on these boards, hence my rant.

Nope. When they aren't mutually exclusive, they are equally evaluated. For instance if PAM is just flat out a better option and there isn't something in the barbarian culture forbidding pole arm weapons, then why would they not take it (in and out of character)?

Both the player and the character are going to try to get the most effective weapon. In 5e that means pole arms with the pole arm master feat (in character "special training"). Many players don't have the great axe barbarian trope. Some of us have greatsword or handandahalf sword tropes in mind. Like say Conan the Barbarian. What about the Quarterstaff wielding "John Little" who gets angry in Robin Hood?

[Zalabim]

While it's a humorous observation, I think it's a little weird that you can't have a dual-wielding Berserker barbarian. Surely the idea of that hyper-fast frenzied rage lends itself to the idea of hacking away with, say, a pair of bloodied axes?
I know that I tend to associate dual-wielding with all-out attack and little heed for defence.

I do miss the dual-wielding-dervish berserker-barrage-barbarian, but I'd be fine with it having its own path. If there were no "insert big weapon here" barbarian path, I'd be missing that instead.

[DanyBallon]

Nope. When they aren't mutually exclusive, they are equally evaluated. For instance if PAM is just flat out a better option and there isn't something in the barbarian culture forbidding pole arm weapons, then why would they not take it (in and out of character)?
Both the player and the character are going to try to get the most effective weapon. In 5e that means pole arms with the pole arm master feat (in character "special training").

Roleplaying optimizers will find a few to be effective within the tropes parameters, pure optimizer that don't care about the world are the ones that will come out with Bear totem/PAM barbarian, for every single barbarian they will play. The later are the ones I see most on these boards and thats why sometime I doubt the RP and optimizing aren't mutually exclusive.



Many players don't have the great axe barbarian trope. Some of us have greatsword or handandahalf sword tropes in mind. Like say Conan the Barbarian. What about the Quarterstaff wielding "John Little" who gets angry in Robin Hood?

Great axe wielding barbarian was a single example, I'm well aware of Conan and other sword wielding trope as well as twf hand axe barbarian trope, but I haven't yet found a pole arm wielding barbarian trope (Sorry Little John ain't a barbarian, nothing suggest that he has somekind of rage).

I won't bother if a players come to a game with a cool halberd wielding barbarian character concept one, as in any game world such unusual character may appear, but it will bug me down if every barbarians he play are PAM/Bear totem, just because, it's what the most effective mechanically.

[smcmike]

Roleplaying optimizers will find a few to be effective within the tropes parameters, pure optimizer that don't care about the world are the ones that will come out with Bear totem/PAM barbarian, for every single barbarian they will play. The later are the ones I see most on these boards and thats why sometime I doubt the RP and optimizing aren't mutually exclusive.



Great axe wielding barbarian was a single example, I'm well aware of Conan and other sword wielding trope as well as twf hand axe barbarian trope, but I haven't yet found a pole arm wielding barbarian trope (Sorry Little John ain't a barbarian, nothing suggest that he has somekind of rage).

I won't bother if a players come to a game with a cool halberd wielding barbarian character concept one, as in any game world such unusual character may appear, but it will bug me down if every barbarians he play are PAM/Bear totem, just because, it's what the most effective mechanically.

I totally agree with you. It's even worse with the paladin shield-and-quarterstaff builds, which not only lack support on fictional tropes, but also in simulationist feel.

The funny thing is, I like pole arms. In fiction, they are actually very much underrepresented - it's just not very cool for the hero to carry a giant stick and poke people from 10 feet away. It is awfully effective, though.

The bigger problem for the frenzy barbarian is that it doesn't even really offer a compelling path for people who want to stick to tropes. The totems + great weapon master work better for a barbarian with a big sword or axe, or a barbarian with two axes, or a barbarian with a sword and shield.

[Skylivedk]

It when I read comments like the former that I think that sometimes Optimizing and Roleplaying are mutually exclusive, as they often dismiss typical character concept like the berserker barbarian because they are better mechanical option, but just don't feel like a typical barbarian wielding a great sword or a great axe.

Not that a barbarian wielding a polearm do not exist, due to the barbarian trope, but they shouldn't be the norm, like they seem to be if you listen only to optimizers.

You are disrespectful. No need to accuse me of optimising and not role-playing just because I point out that 5e has weak mechanics.

My favourite mythical figure was Stærkodder. In current 5e, his versatile S&B style would be craptastic due to how frenzy works.

That goes for ANY of the feats that enhance up-close-and-personal fighting.

If you and Zalabim like playing without feats or do not like changing rules, be my guest. Please refrain from implying anything at all about how I play, think or do unless you have solid data.

Personally, I'd instantly agree to a revamp of the Frenzy Barbarian if a player wanted to play one.

I think something along the lines of:

Double rage bonus while frenzying
Con save against exhaustion and/or being able to remove exhaustion levels at short rest - which is also kinda of a cool feature by itself that could be gained later.

I'd also allow some out of combat ability to match the rituals of the totem barbarian (expertise in athletics, perhaps? - don't really know about this part)

[DanyBallon]

You are disrespectful. No need to accuse me of optimising and not role-playing just because I point out that 5e has weak mechanics.

My favourite mythical figure was Stærkodder. In current 5e, his versatile S&B style would be craptastic due to how frenzy works.

That goes for ANY of the feats that enhance up-close-and-personal fighting.

If you and Zalabim like playing without feats or do not like changing rules, be my guest. Please refrain from implying anything at all about how I play, think or do unless you have solid data.

Personally, I'd instantly agree to a revamp of the Frenzy Barbarian if a player wanted to play one.

I think something along the lines of:

Double rage bonus while frenzying
Con save against exhaustion and/or being able to remove exhaustion levels at short rest - which is also kinda of a cool feature by itself that could be gained later.

I'd also allow some out of combat ability to match the rituals of the totem barbarian (expertise in athletics, perhaps? - don't really know about this part)

Sorry if you got the impression that I was disrespecting you, but I only used your comment and the one following to build a rant about the Stormwind phalacy and how often on these boards optimizing and roleplaying seems to be miles appart.

[Skylivedk]

Sorry if you got the impression that I was disrespecting you, but I only used your comment and the one following to build a rant about the Stormwind phalacy and how often on these boards optimizing and roleplaying seems to be miles appart.

Apology fully accepted. Pardon if I were a bit too touchy. I've had a couple of non-RP/optimiser accusations thrown at me in my last couple of discussions in these forums, and it was getting annoying ;)

[JakOfAllTirades]

<Shrug> My new Barbarian character just reached 2nd level, so I haven't chosen an archetype yet.

But I'm leaning toward Berserker, and my DM is going run it "by the book" including exhaustion. I have no problem with this, and here's why:

Level 1 exhaustion: Disadvantage on ability checks. Really? Do I care? I have exactly one skill that I'm any good at - Athletics - and I get Advantage on Strength checks when I use Rage. This is a non-issue; I'm nobody's skill-monkey and I never will be. Initiative is an ability check; I'll have Advantage on that at 7th level, so eventually I can negate that effect as well.

Level 2 exhaustion: Half Movement Speed. So what? When I Frenzy I can use the Dash Action and still attack on my Bonus Action if I need to. I'll have Extra Movement at 5th level, and I'll probably take the Mobile Feat at 4th level. Besides the +10 feet of movement, I can avoid Opportunity Attacks when I'm using the Reckless Attack feature, which is Aces.

Level 3 exhaustion: Disadvantage on Attack Rolls. Again, so what? I can negate Disadvantage with Reckless Attack at will, and yes, the Mobile Feat is looking better and better, for hitting my enemies and Dashing out of their reach unscathed.

After that the effects of exhaustion get really ugly, but IMHO the Berserker has almost everything it needs to handle the first three levels of exhaustion "built in." And the Mobility Feat is under-rated.

[Lombra]

<Shrug> My new Barbarian character just reached 2nd level, so I haven't chosen an archetype yet.

But I'm leaning toward Berserker, and my DM is going run it "by the book" including exhaustion. I have no problem with this, and here's why:

Level 1 exhaustion: Disadvantage on ability checks. Really? Do I care? I have exactly one skill that I'm any good at - Athletics - and I get Advantage on Strength checks when I use Rage. This is a non-issue; I'm nobody's skill-monkey and I never will be. Initiative is an ability check; I'll have Advantage on that at 7th level, so eventually I can negate that effect as well.

Level 2 exhaustion: Half Movement Speed. So what? When I Frenzy I can use the Dash Action and still attack on my Bonus Action if I need to. I'll have Extra Movement at 5th level, and I'll probably take the Mobile Feat at 4th level. Besides the +10 feet of movement, I can avoid Opportunity Attacks when I'm using the Reckless Attack feature, which is Aces.

Level 3 exhaustion: Disadvantage on Attack Rolls. Again, so what? I can negate Disadvantage with Reckless Attack at will, and yes, the Mobile Feat is looking better and better, for hitting my enemies and Dashing out of their reach unscathed.

After that the effects of exhaustion get really ugly, but IMHO the Berserker has almost everything it needs to handle the first three levels of exhaustion "built in." And the Mobility Feat is under-rated.

This is why it doesn't need any tweaks. Anyways if you really feel it's too much you could house rule for it to add an extra attack to the attack action: this way dual wielders and PAM will be able to get a huge benefit from it, leaving the mechanic of exhaustion as it is.

[Knaight]

You say that as if the internet RPG community cares about anything other than short-term damage output.
Even on the D&D boards here, there's plenty of appreciation for control, action economy type stuff, etc. The broader internet RPG community has lots of people who care about a great deal more than short term damage output. Just look at the various podcasts.


That's fine but that's not my point.
It addresses it. The real weapon and not a toothpick argument might make sense for certain spears with particularly small heads and particularly thin shafts. It doesn't make much sense for something like a halberd.

[R.Shackleford]

<Shrug> My new Barbarian character just reached 2nd level, so I haven't chosen an archetype yet.

But I'm leaning toward Berserker, and my DM is going run it "by the book" including exhaustion. I have no problem with this, and here's why:

Level 1 exhaustion: Disadvantage on ability checks. Really? Do I care? I have exactly one skill that I'm any good at - Athletics - and I get Advantage on Strength checks when I use Rage. This is a non-issue; I'm nobody's skill-monkey and I never will be. Initiative is an ability check; I'll have Advantage on that at 7th level, so eventually I can negate that effect as well.

Level 2 exhaustion: Half Movement Speed. So what? When I Frenzy I can use the Dash Action and still attack on my Bonus Action if I need to. I'll have Extra Movement at 5th level, and I'll probably take the Mobile Feat at 4th level. Besides the +10 feet of movement, I can avoid Opportunity Attacks when I'm using the Reckless Attack feature, which is Aces.

Level 3 exhaustion: Disadvantage on Attack Rolls. Again, so what? I can negate Disadvantage with Reckless Attack at will, and yes, the Mobile Feat is looking better and better, for hitting my enemies and Dashing out of their reach unscathed.

After that the effects of exhaustion get really ugly, but IMHO the Berserker has almost everything it needs to handle the first three levels of exhaustion "built in." And the Mobility Feat is under-rated.

You may be fine with being punished for playing a character but most people are not.

Could y'all imagine if say, using your wizard tradition, cause you to have a stacking penalty each time you used it? If you used your tradition features too much you died?

How about agonizing blast or the dragon sorcerer +cha to damage?

Or each time you used a BM dice in battle you got a penalty afterwards...

Frenzy is bad design because it punishes a player, not just for mechanics, but for choosing an option based on roleolaying and then using said option.

The bonus damage isn't even all that much of a boon.

[Tanarii]

Or how about if when a sorcerer cast a spell, there was a chance of a fireball going off around him? Can you imagine?

[R.Shackleford]

Or how about if when a sorcerer cast a spell, there was a chance of a fireball going off around him? Can you imagine?

Because that happens every single time the sorcerer cast a spell and is in no way an extremely rare event.

Read the book before you get snarky/rude, uninformed snarky/rudeness doesn't suit anyone.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Read the book before you get snarky/rude, uninformed snarky/rudeness doesn't suit anyone.

I'd suggest you take the same advice. You're comparing instantaneous powers (agonizing blast, BM maneuvers) to one that lasts for an entire combat, which is a completely dishonest comparison. This is some prime Ignore List fodder.

[Knaight]

You may be fine with being punished for playing a character but most people are not.

Having an unusually powerful ability balanced by a downside isn't being punished for playing a character. You might as well argue that having melee range abilities is being punished for playing a character, as using them tends to incur HP damage due to the game being heavy on melee attacks.



Could y'all imagine if say, using your wizard tradition, cause you to have a stacking penalty each time you used it? If you used your tradition features too much you died?

How about agonizing blast or the dragon sorcerer +cha to damage?

Or each time you used a BM dice in battle you got a penalty afterwards...
This sounds like a reasonable alternative resource limit for magic and a combat system tied to fatigue. I'd probably want to drop spell slots and the BM die limit as there's an alternative limit instead, but even without that these are reasonable tradeoffs if the benefit lines up with the penalty well.

[Tanarii]

Because that happens every single time the sorcerer cast a spell and is in no way an extremely rare event.

Read the book before you get snarky/rude, uninformed snarky/rudeness doesn't suit anyone.
That's strange, my rule book shows it as a small chance on a wild magic surge.

Clearly random Wild Magic backfires don't punish players, whereas Exhaustion on Frenzy does. Although why this is clear eludes me.

[SharkForce]

<Shrug> My new Barbarian character just reached 2nd level, so I haven't chosen an archetype yet.

But I'm leaning toward Berserker, and my DM is going run it "by the book" including exhaustion. I have no problem with this, and here's why:

Level 1 exhaustion: Disadvantage on ability checks. Really? Do I care? I have exactly one skill that I'm any good at - Athletics - and I get Advantage on Strength checks when I use Rage. This is a non-issue; I'm nobody's skill-monkey and I never will be. Initiative is an ability check; I'll have Advantage on that at 7th level, so eventually I can negate that effect as well.

Level 2 exhaustion: Half Movement Speed. So what? When I Frenzy I can use the Dash Action and still attack on my Bonus Action if I need to. I'll have Extra Movement at 5th level, and I'll probably take the Mobile Feat at 4th level. Besides the +10 feet of movement, I can avoid Opportunity Attacks when I'm using the Reckless Attack feature, which is Aces.

Level 3 exhaustion: Disadvantage on Attack Rolls. Again, so what? I can negate Disadvantage with Reckless Attack at will, and yes, the Mobile Feat is looking better and better, for hitting my enemies and Dashing out of their reach unscathed.

After that the effects of exhaustion get really ugly, but IMHO the Berserker has almost everything it needs to handle the first three levels of exhaustion "built in." And the Mobility Feat is under-rated.

if those class abilities were "you cannot suffer disadvantage on..." then yeah, up to level 3 exhaustion wouldn't be a drawback. but the simple fact is, you're trading what should be an advantage for not having an advantage.

going from being *really* good at something to just being average is a cost, and exhaustion has that effect.

and it isn't really all that powerful of an ability, even (unless you're in a featless game). it doesn't need some horrendous drawback. a bonus action attack is worth somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of a feat.

[JakOfAllTirades]

That's strange, my rule book shows it as a small chance on a wild magic surge.

Clearly random Wild Magic backfires don't punish players, whereas Exhaustion on Frenzy does. Although why this is clear eludes me.

People get "punished" for breaking the law, or doing something wrong. Why are we even using that word in this context?

It's not a crime to play a Berserker, FFS!

Some people just like to whine a lot, I guess.

[Skylivedk]

if those class abilities were "you cannot suffer disadvantage on..." then yeah, up to level 3 exhaustion wouldn't be a drawback. but the simple fact is, you're trading what should be an advantage for not having an advantage.

going from being *really* good at something to just being average is a cost, and exhaustion has that effect.

and it isn't really all that powerful of an ability, even (unless you're in a featless game). it doesn't need some horrendous drawback. a bonus action attack is worth somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of a feat.

So the third feat you save partially makes up for the drawbacks. I'm with SharkForce on this one. It strikes me as being weak which is a shame since I love the flavour

[Zalabim]

if those class abilities were "you cannot suffer disadvantage on..." then yeah, up to level 3 exhaustion wouldn't be a drawback. but the simple fact is, you're trading what should be an advantage for not having an advantage.

going from being *really* good at something to just being average is a cost, and exhaustion has that effect.

and it isn't really all that powerful of an ability, even (unless you're in a featless game). it doesn't need some horrendous drawback. a bonus action attack is worth somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 of a feat.

A better comparison would be if using a class ability made you gradually lose access to other class abilities. Like you slowly lose versatility as you expend your maximum power. That kind of mechanic certainly hasn't been used anywhere else in the game.

I'm not sure if exhaustion is a mechanically balanced trade-off for the ability, but I am sure that the ability needs some trade-off so it can't be used every time you rage.

[LordVonDerp]

Having an unusually powerful ability balanced by a downside isn't being punished for playing a character.

That is absolutely true. Unfortunately, this is a discussion about Frenzy, rather than anything particularly strong.

[DanyBallon]

That is absolutely true. Unfortunately, this is a discussion about Frenzy, rather than anything particularly strong.

Something that gives you let you make an attack without any penalties associated with twf (feat, fighting styles, requirement and weapon size limitation) as a bonus action every turn for 1 min is on the strong side.

[Tanarii]

People get "punished" for breaking the law, or doing something wrong. Why are we even using that word in this context?Yup. I'm trying to understand why it's a punishment as well.

Edit: I mean, I get it's mechanically worse than a lot of other options.

[SharkForce]

Something that gives you let you make an attack without any penalties associated with twf (feat, fighting styles, requirement and weapon size limitation) as a bonus action every turn for 1 min is on the strong side.

eh, not so much. there are at least two feats that can easily give you a bonus attack in the great majority of situations that you might even want them. there are other feats that give you abilities similar, or that give you bonus attacks or equivalent that are limited in scope. and these feats even give you other things too. they give it to you as often as you want, without applying any stacking debuffs, and without requiring further use of resources.

if frenzy needs to cause exhaustion, then the fighter's bonus ASIs need to cause exhaustion 2-3 times as much, because they give very good access to bonus action attacks as well, plus other useful abilities on top of that.

edit:


Yup. I'm trying to understand why it's a punishment as well.

Edit: I mean, I get it's mechanically worse than a lot of other options.

simply put, you're being given less mechanical strength because you chose a different flavour for your character. you are being "punished" with a less optimized character that will be able to have less of an impact than a more optimized character, purely because (in this case) you decided you wanted more of a "frothing at the mouth" barbarian than a "animal spirit" barbarian.

[Waazraath]

simply put, you're being given less mechanical strength because you chose a different flavour for your character. you are being "punished" with a less optimized character that will be able to have less of an impact than a more optimized character, purely because (in this case) you decided you wanted more of a "frothing at the mouth" barbarian than a "animal spirit" barbarian.

But doesn't this one fly for every class that has subclasses that vary in strength? A paladin sworn to the ancients is more powerful than a paladin sworn to the crown. Is the latter 'punished'? In a game like 5e, not everything can be 100% balanced. The designers did imo a great job as it is, capturing quite a good balance among a great variety of classes, with very different options, mechanics, and 'feel'. As for the frenzy barbarian, it's very balanced in a featless game, as already has been mentioned I think. There, with their ability to wield a big weapon, and make 4 attacks/round (2 normal, 1 bonus, 1 reaction), they are very competative damage dealers. In a game with feats its a bit weaker. Oh well. There are more options that are a bit weaker, I don't see a big problem with it.

[Lombra]

simply put, you're being given less mechanical strength because you chose a different flavour for your character. you are being "punished" with a less optimized character that will be able to have less of an impact than a more optimized character, purely because (in this case) you decided you wanted more of a "frothing at the mouth" barbarian than a "animal spirit" barbarian.

But why are you looking only at the damage? D&D is not about damage output, if you complain that a fighter gets more dpr than a barbarian welcome to 5e buddy.
Barbarians are meant to be durable fighters, the frenzy gives the extra boost that you need if you or the party is in trouble. Plus by itself the barbarian is simply amazing! Advantage at will and high health make for a very tanky build because let's face that: if you pick barbarian is because you want to tank (unless it's a dip, I'm talking about a barbarian played as a barbarian).
Frenzy just shouldn't be spammed, and a level of exhaustion is a fair trade off for what you get.
"Feats do it better" just pick the feat, or don't, so you save up a feat/ASI slot since you already have a bonus action to attack.

[DanyBallon]

eh, not so much. there are at least two feats that can easily give you a bonus attack in the great majority of situations that you might even want them. there are other feats that give you abilities similar, or that give you bonus attacks or equivalent that are limited in scope. and these feats even give you other things too. they give it to you as often as you want, without applying any stacking debuffs, and without requiring further use of resources.

if frenzy needs to cause exhaustion, then the fighter's bonus ASIs need to cause exhaustion 2-3 times as much, because they give very good access to bonus action attacks as well, plus other useful abilities on top of that.



Frenzy let you get a bonus attack that don't require to invest in a feat, that is not limited by weapon size or type, that let you add you ability modifier to damage without the need for a fighting style, that do more damage than a mere 1d4. That's the strength of Frenzy.
The only cost is an exhaustion level that go away at the end of the day (it's kinda like a 1/day ability, but that let you go overboard if needed as you would expect from a Berserker)

[Tanarii]

edit:



simply put, you're being given less mechanical strength because you chose a different flavour for your character. you are being "punished" with a less optimized character that will be able to have less of an impact than a more optimized character, purely because (in this case) you decided you wanted more of a "frothing at the mouth" barbarian than a "animal spirit" barbarian.sorry, I'm just not buying the argument that less optimized = punished.

Besides, I'm fairly sure that's not the context it was using it in. AFAICT he was using it to mean getting exhaustion when using the feature = punish the player for using the feature. That's not nearly as egregious a use of the term. I don't agree, but it's much more reasonable than less optimized = punished, which isn't a reasonable argument at all.

[Skylivedk]

Frenzy let you get a bonus attack that don't require to invest in a feat, that is not limited by weapon size or type, that let you add you ability modifier to damage without the need for a fighting style, that do more damage than a mere 1d4. That's the strength of Frenzy.
The only cost is an exhaustion level that go away at the end of the day (it's kinda like a 1/day ability, but that let you go overboard if needed as you would expect from a Berserker)

DW is weak in this edition, so I'll skip these comparisons, and both PAM and GWM are strong enough to warrant considerations even for a frenzy barbarian.

Summa summarum: I think those of us who find frenzy weak are fully aware of what it does. We/I just do not believe it's worth its cost. At all. Especially not in comparison to the totem barbarian.

[DanyBallon]

DW is weak in this edition, so I'll skip these comparisons, and both PAM and GWM are strong enough to warrant considerations even for a frenzy barbarian.

Summa summarum: I think those of us who find frenzy weak are fully aware of what it does. We/I just do not believe it's worth its cost. At all. Especially not in comparison to the totem barbarian.

This bring us back to some wanting to play the most effective character even if it do not make sense in the world (one chararacter diverging from the trope once in a while is fine, every character diverging in the same way stretch the versimilitude a bit), vs those who are happy that there are good subclasses that allow to represent different fantasy tropes but are not the most optimized build.

P.S. To those that are temped to call forth the Stormwind fallacy, I've already ranted about the subject in a previous post in this thread. Please go read my argument about it before replying.

Thank you :)

[SharkForce]

But doesn't this one fly for every class that has subclasses that vary in strength? A paladin sworn to the ancients is more powerful than a paladin sworn to the crown. Is the latter 'punished'? In a game like 5e, not everything can be 100% balanced. The designers did imo a great job as it is, capturing quite a good balance among a great variety of classes, with very different options, mechanics, and 'feel'. As for the frenzy barbarian, it's very balanced in a featless game, as already has been mentioned I think. There, with their ability to wield a big weapon, and make 4 attacks/round (2 normal, 1 bonus, 1 reaction), they are very competative damage dealers. In a game with feats its a bit weaker. Oh well. There are more options that are a bit weaker, I don't see a big problem with it.

not everything can be perfect. but things can be better than "a couple of feats give you almost the same abilities as this entire subclass except you can use it as often as you want without further cost while the other options add unique and powerful abilities to you".

it is particularly distasteful that a frenzy barbarian will likely want those feats anyways, because they help in the rest of the adventuring day, rather than just in a single fight.

it isn't a bit weaker. it is a *lot* weaker in a game with feats.


But why are you looking only at the damage? D&D is not about damage output, if you complain that a fighter gets more dpr than a barbarian welcome to 5e buddy.
Barbarians are meant to be durable fighters, the frenzy gives the extra boost that you need if you or the party is in trouble. Plus by itself the barbarian is simply amazing! Advantage at will and high health make for a very tanky build because let's face that: if you pick barbarian is because you want to tank (unless it's a dip, I'm talking about a barbarian played as a barbarian).
Frenzy just shouldn't be spammed, and a level of exhaustion is a fair trade off for what you get.
"Feats do it better" just pick the feat, or don't, so you save up a feat/ASI slot since you already have a bonus action to attack.

for a barbarian, D&D *is* largely about damage output. i mean, that's the primary reason to choose barbarian. they have the highest damage in the game, bar none (and yes, that includes fighters, unless you've got a group that supports the fighter extremely well, the barbarian *will* outdo the fighter in DPR, even at level 20 when the fighter finally picks up the 4th attack... except that even in such a group, the rest of the group will be able to focus more on themselves when a barbarian is around, which should mean party DPR is higher).

and no, practically speaking, a barbarian is not a tank (at least, not by default). they could be. but by default? not really. their damage is big, it is true. but are they more disruptive asnd worthy of being focused than a wizard casting hypnotic pattern, or a druid casting entangle, or a sorcerer casting careful web? if they cannot at least make enemies perceive them that way, they are not a tank. they're tough, sure (while raging... when not raging, reckless attacks tends to make their AC effectively very low). but that's just part of the equation. if you want to be a tank, go totem barbarian and pick the party support totems that make your whole party more powerful, and become the person the enemy needs to take down if they want to have even a chance at defeating the party. *then* you can call yourself a tank.

frenzy just isn't that good. it's definitely slightly better than what the feats give. but "slightly better some of the time" is not worth a massive penalty to use it.

[Pope Scarface]

I see Mindless Rage and Retaliation as the big ticket items for the Frenzy Barbarian. Frenzy just saves them a feat so that they are more likely to hit 24 Str and 24 Con. If you put all your ASIs into it, you can have 24 Str, 24 Con, 18 Dex, and have an AC of 21 in all your skyclad glory.

[Skylivedk]

But doesn't this one fly for every class that has subclasses that vary in strength? A paladin sworn to the ancients is more powerful than a paladin sworn to the crown. Is the latter 'punished'? In a game like 5e, not everything can be 100% balanced. The designers did imo a great job as it is, capturing quite a good balance among a great variety of classes, with very different options, mechanics, and 'feel'. As for the frenzy barbarian, it's very balanced in a featless game, as already has been mentioned I think. There, with their ability to wield a big weapon, and make 4 attacks/round (2 normal, 1 bonus, 1 reaction), they are very competative damage dealers. In a game with feats its a bit weaker. Oh well. There are more options that are a bit weaker, I don't see a big problem with it.

My one playtest with Paladin of the Crown did seem to reveal it wasn't super strong. On the other hand, it has CC abilities that are not easily mimicked, and can hence fill functions that are different from those of the the OotA.

I think the main point is your second statement: you don't have a problem with options being weaker.

For the life of me, I don't understand that WotC have tried their hand at balancing essentially two systems at the same time (feats/no feats). I'd very much prefer to have a basic and anadvanced version.

Me and SharkForce both seem to find it annoying that you get penalised for flavour. Luckily, I don't mind house-ruling ;)


But why are you looking only at the damage? D&D is not about damage output, if you complain that a fighter gets more dpr than a barbarian welcome to 5e buddy.
Barbarians are meant to be durable fighters, the frenzy gives the extra boost that you need if you or the party is in trouble. Plus by itself the barbarian is simply amazing! Advantage at will and high health make for a very tanky build because let's face that: if you pick barbarian is because you want to tank (unless it's a dip, I'm talking about a barbarian played as a barbarian).
Frenzy just shouldn't be spammed, and a level of exhaustion is a fair trade off for what you get.
"Feats do it better" just pick the feat, or don't, so you save up a feat/ASI slot since you already have a bonus action to attack.

The Frenzy Barbarian seems to be pretty much about swinging big things at small and big sometimes living things, mainly with the purpose of making them less living.

I very much like the Barbarian, and especially the Frenzy version - flavour wise. In the current version, I'd change him, if a player wants to play him, just like I've changed the sorcerer (more spells known), the druid (combining the two alternative shapeshifting abilities found here) and the dualwielding (adding rend as pr. Kryx' recommendations).


I see Mindless Rage and Retaliation as the big ticket items for the Frenzy Barbarian. Frenzy just saves them a feat so that they are more likely to hit 24 Str and 24 Con. If you put all your ASIs into it, you can have 24 Str, 24 Con, 18 Dex, and have an AC of 21 in all your skyclad glory.

As far as I know, most games don't make it to level 14 - hence I try not to place too much an importance on what you can achieve with a certain class between 14-20.

Mindless rage is pretty good. Situational, but very good in those situations. For the rest... I still find it very expensive to have a core feature (I mean, Frenzy is supposed to stack up against Wolf Totem AND two Ritual Castings - I don't even think it measures up to the former.)


This bring us back to some wanting to play the most effective character even if it do not make sense in the world (one chararacter diverging from the trope once in a while is fine, every character diverging in the same way stretch the versimilitude a bit), vs those who are happy that there are good subclasses that allow to represent different fantasy tropes but are not the most optimized build.

P.S. To those that are temped to call forth the Stormwind fallacy, I've already ranted about the subject in a previous post in this thread. Please go read my argument about it before replying.

Thank you :)

I prefer the baseline classes to be very close to each other. When the classes are far from each other in terms of power, I, as a DM, will have to compensate for the inherent mechanical chasm between the classes. I don't get the point in having players feel less impactful, because they are trying to pay homage to a certain trope. In particular, the mouth-frothing Frenzy Barbarian ought to:
a) kick a lot more ass

or

b) have more out-of-combat utility

to measure up to his animal-loving-Ritual-casting-advantage-granting-or-damage-resistance-having-vegan-hippie-bro aka the Totem Barbarian.

[Lombra]

for a barbarian, D&D *is* largely about damage output. i mean, that's the primary reason to choose barbarian. they have the highest damage in the game, bar none (and yes, that includes fighters, unless you've got a group that supports the fighter extremely well, the barbarian *will* outdo the fighter in DPR, even at level 20 when the fighter finally picks up the 4th attack... except that even in such a group, the rest of the group will be able to focus more on themselves when a barbarian is around, which should mean party DPR is higher).

and no, practically speaking, a barbarian is not a tank (at least, not by default). they could be. but by default? not really. their damage is big, it is true. but are they more disruptive asnd worthy of being focused than a wizard casting hypnotic pattern, or a druid casting entangle, or a sorcerer casting careful web? if they cannot at least make enemies perceive them that way, they are not a tank. they're tough, sure (while raging... when not raging, reckless attacks tends to make their AC effectively very low). but that's just part of the equation. if you want to be a tank, go totem barbarian and pick the party support totems that make your whole party more powerful, and become the person the enemy needs to take down if they want to have even a chance at defeating the party. *then* you can call yourself a tank.

frenzy just isn't that good. it's definitely slightly better than what the feats give. but "slightly better some of the time" is not worth a massive penalty to use it.

Rather than damage I think that barbarians just want to hit, hit everything regardless of how they're hitting to gain attention from the enemy: they have the tools to do it (namely reckless attack) and frenzy gives them another chance to smack the opponent in the face for free for one minute (ten rounds!).
I mean barbarians care about tanking: they have the highest HP reachable in the game! If this doesn't scream "hit me not that guy with flaming hands" I don't really know how could you define a tank.



The Frenzy Barbarian seems to be pretty much about swinging big things at small and big sometimes living things, mainly with the purpose of making them less living.

I very much like the Barbarian, and especially the Frenzy version - flavour wise. In the current version, I'd change him, if a player wants to play him, just like I've changed the sorcerer (more spells known), the druid (combining the two alternative shapeshifting abilities found here) and the dualwielding (adding rend as pr. Kryx' recommendations).


I think it's balanced: it's a 50% increase in dpr for ten rounds, and as a barbarian you can mitigate the drawbacks of exhaustion easily.



I prefer the baseline classes to be very close to each other. When the classes are far from each other in terms of power, I, as a DM, will have to compensate for the inherent mechanical chasm between the classes. I don't get the point in having players feel less impactful, because they are trying to pay homage to a certain trope. In particular, the mouth-frothing Frenzy Barbarian ought to:
a) kick a lot more ass

or

b) have more out-of-combat utility

to measure up to his animal-loving-Ritual-casting-advantage-granting-or-damage-resistance-having-vegan-hippie-bro aka the Totem Barbarian.

Well it kicks a lot more asses, extra d12+15 (GWM, because you can't not have it) every round for ten rounds, not to mention that the barbarian has a party which helps him tanking while he helps them not getting hit.


In the end: frenzy is an ability on which you have to think before using it, one of the few abilities that are not brain-dead user free, it's not optimized, it's situational, but in those situations it's a life saver.

[DanyBallon]

For the life of me, I don't understand that WotC have tried their hand at balancing essentially two systems at the same time (feats/no feats). I'd very much prefer to have a basic and anadvanced version.

...

I prefer the baseline classes to be very close to each other. When the classes are far from each other in terms of power, I, as a DM, will have to compensate for the inherent mechanical chasm between the classes. I don't get the point in having players feel less impactful, because they are trying to pay homage to a certain trope. In particular, the mouth-frothing Frenzy Barbarian ought to:
a) kick a lot more ass

or

b) have more out-of-combat utility

to measure up to his animal-loving-Ritual-casting-advantage-granting-or-damage-resistance-having-vegan-hippie-bro aka the Totem Barbarian.

I see the problem from a different angle, the classes are relatively balanced without feats and it's when adding some very specific feats that balance goes out. Instead of seeing Berserker as weak, maybe it's PAM that is just too damn good that no optimizer can live without it. Remove that specific feat, or tone it down and suddenly not every martials needs to be armed with polearms. Without feats two weapon fighting style is much more a decent option. With feats DW fails to meet the advantage that GWM bring to the table, Etc.

So in the end, the classes are pretty balanced and allow to represent a wide variety of fantasy tropes. Feats on the other hand aren't as balanced and are the ones that need to be tweaked.

I'm not asking for you to play without feats as myself I like them for the favlor they add to character creation, but we should focus on balancing them. Because, in my opinion, if something is just to good to not take it, that's an indication that their may be a issue balance wise. Trying to fix everything else in order to bring it on par will just lead to power creep.

[Knaight]

That is absolutely true. Unfortunately, this is a discussion about Frenzy, rather than anything particularly strong.

Whether or not Frenzy is specifically strong enough to justify the exhaustion downside is besides the point when it comes to the general concept of whether or not it is bad to "punish" characters for using their class features.

[DanyBallon]

Whether or not Frenzy is specifically strong enough to justify the exhaustion downside is besides the point when it comes to the general concept of whether or not it is bad to "punish" characters for using their class features.

The problem is that some feels limitations as a punishment (level of exhaustion after Frenzy, xp cost of old, etc.), where as others see limitations for what they are, simply limitation to an ability as once per rest, or once per day are. The difference is that these later limitation are restrictive, while a frenzied berserker, can decide to take a bigger toll if needed. If used carefully it's not worst that the more restrictive 1/day, but if you abused it, your character may just end up dead.

[Tanarii]

The problem is that some feels limitations as a punishment (level of exhaustion after Frenzy, xp cost of old, etc.), where as others see limitations for what they are, simply limitation to an ability as once per rest, or once per day are.

Exactly. A balancing limitation is not punishment. It's a balance limitation.

Resource limitations might be counter-productive in the long term. They may or may not be a poorly balanced. They might be mechanically klunky. They may even be a counter-intuitive one in terms of the fluff. But they aren't punishing the player, especially when they involve player choice.

(Note that I don't think Frenzy is necessarily all of those things)

[wunderkid]

<Shrug> My new Barbarian character just reached 2nd level, so I haven't chosen an archetype yet.

But I'm leaning toward Berserker, and my DM is going run it "by the book" including exhaustion. I have no problem with this, and here's why:

Level 1 exhaustion: Disadvantage on ability checks. Really? Do I care? I have exactly one skill that I'm any good at - Athletics - and I get Advantage on Strength checks when I use Rage. This is a non-issue; I'm nobody's skill-monkey and I never will be. Initiative is an ability check; I'll have Advantage on that at 7th level, so eventually I can negate that effect as well.

Level 2 exhaustion: Half Movement Speed. So what? When I Frenzy I can use the Dash Action and still attack on my Bonus Action if I need to. I'll have Extra Movement at 5th level, and I'll probably take the Mobile Feat at 4th level. Besides the +10 feet of movement, I can avoid Opportunity Attacks when I'm using the Reckless Attack feature, which is Aces.

Level 3 exhaustion: Disadvantage on Attack Rolls. Again, so what? I can negate Disadvantage with Reckless Attack at will, and yes, the Mobile Feat is looking better and better, for hitting my enemies and Dashing out of their reach unscathed.

After that the effects of exhaustion get really ugly, but IMHO the Berserker has almost everything it needs to handle the first three levels of exhaustion "built in." And the Mobility Feat is under-rated.

The thing is that while you're fine with the drawbacks every single thing you've listed doesn't mitigate the draw backs. It stems them. The non Frenzy Barbarian keeps every single advantage. You have to keep raging just to not be completely useless.

The problem is it almost feels like exhaustion was designed to shut down every aspect of the Barbarian.

Level 1 - being able to grapple with advantage is arguably a core part of the class. Well after one Frenzy now that's not an option. I mean it is. But you are no longer great at it. You also get snuck up in, lied to, stolen from and feel generally like a waste of space outside of combat. I play a rogue/bard and I can assure you being able to do nothing out of combat for the sake of a single fight out of 8 really doesnt sound like a fun trade off.

Level 2 - unarmoured movement is again a core feature to the class. Well guess what 2nd Frenzy now drops you to being slower than the half ling. Sure you can pick up mobility to mitigate this a little but you pick up mobility. The other barb picks up PAM. (Mentioned below)

Level 3 - well now things are looking very dire. Not only do you have Disadvantage on all attacks your core feature of Reckless Attack now only grants you a normal roll. But still gives everything advantage against you.

Level 4 - those beefy d12 hit dice you get for being the manlinest class out there are now basically a wizards.

Level 5 - well you do make a very manly statue.

Level 6 - yes that's right your class feature can kill you. Which would be super awesome as a last ditch Rawr death or glory if you didn't have to stand still on half hit points with Disadvantage on everything.

The problem isn't with the class it's with exhaustion. And how long it sticks about for and how hard it is to remove.

Also yes it's a feat tax for PAM. But they get d4+X for the entire day. Frenzy barb can Rage once per day before they need mass downtime. So for one fight (out of 8) you get better damage. For the rest of the day you're basically just boring and generic and suck at all skills unless you want to burn on more frenzy.

I believe someone mentioned earlier the difference between Frenzy and PAM was d4+4 (7) vs d12+4 (10) so 3? And then mentioned over the course of a 10 rounds that adds up to 30 additional damage? Well that's for one fight. Then PAM over the next 7 fights (keeping the 10 rounds per fight, 7 damage per PAM hit) racks up 490 damage added in those 7 fights not including the 70 from the first fight.

So 30 damage for a fight. Vs 560 total damage in a day from PAM. Even if you say half miss, that's 15 vs 280.

So you take the Mobile Feat your movement is 50ft. And after your second Frenzy you now go 25. barbarian number 2 moves 40. You're now taking a dash action to go a mere 10ft faster than the other barb is strolling at. And he I'd doing 500 extra damage than you in a day. Each Frenzy you use does reduce that gap by 30 though so I guess you can close the door by killing yourself?

Just going to say now my maths has been terrible lately I'm half asleep so I apologise if I've gotten this horribly wrong

[SharkForce]

being hard to kill doesn't make you a tank. being hard to kill *and* being the most threatening makes you a tank. a squishy wizard who is disrupting the entire enemy team is not a less appealing target than the tough barbarian who is disrupting a single enemy. if your "tank" can't draw aggro, you're not a tank.

as to retaliatory strike, it is pretty nice... but a polearm barbarian also gets a reaction attack that they're fairly likely to trigger. mindless rage is pretty nice, but not so nice that it's worth the rest of the subclass being 80% replaced by a feat, especially when the subclass comes with a very painful drawback.

frenzy *is* a DPR increase over PM/GWM combined, for the record. just not by nearly enough to warrant having a huge drawback, especially since PM/GWM can be used all day every day.

I'm fine with balancing restrictions where needed. frenzy does not need nearly the drawback that it has, though.

[obeseboywonder]

I always see people mentioning ways of buffing Frenzy, but no one ever suggests treating it like the Relentless Rage ability.

Frenzy: When your rage ends make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, you gain one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a long rest the DC resets to 10.

DC 10 might be too low though, maybe make it 15.

On second thought, I actually think exhaustion is just a terrible balancing mechanic. Another idea I'm thinking of is this:


Frenzy doesn't cause exhaustion.
Can be used a number of times equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum 1).
Resets on a long rest.

[DanyBallon]

On second thought, I actually think exhaustion is just a terrible balancing mechanic. Another idea I'm thinking of is this:


Frenzy doesn't cause exhaustion.
Can be used a number of times equal to half your Constitution modifier (minimum 1).
Resets on a long rest.


If you want something simple that follow the intent, just say that Frenzy can be done 1/day, at 11th level 2/day, and at 18th level 3/day. No more exhaustion level after use.

This Frenzy is relevant through all the berserker career without favoring level dip. The only drawback is that you lose fluff wise. If fluff about a raging berserker going overboard and suffering effects from it is not important to you, then it's a win-win solution.

[wunderkid]

If you want something simple that follow the intent, just say that Frenzy can be done 1/day, at 11th level 2/day, and at 18th level 3/day. No more exhaustion level after use.

This Frenzy is relevant through all the berserker career without favoring level dip. The only drawback is that you lose fluff wise. If fluff about a raging berserker going overboard and suffering effects from it is not important to you, then it's a win-win solution.

Agree with this. Exhaustion is the problem. Getting rid of it makes Frenzy much better. I'm generally against homebrew but the one class I'd allow it does is the Frenzy Barbarian.

[DanyBallon]

Agree with this. Exhaustion is the problem. Getting rid of it makes Frenzy much better. I'm generally against homebrew but the one class I'd allow it does is the Frenzy Barbarian.

Don't get me wrong, exhaustion is not the problem.
The perception you get from the drawback is what is problematic to some. As far as I'm concerned, Frenzy is just fine as is, but I tried to provide a simple solution for those who don't like how Frenzy works while trying to keep in the design intent.

[wunderkid]

Don't get me wrong, exhaustion is not the problem.
The perception you get from the drawback is what is problematic to some. As far as I'm concerned, Frenzy is just fine as is, but I tried to provide a simple solution for those who don't like how Frenzy works while trying to keep in the design intent.

Sorry but exhaustion totally is the problem. It feels like it was originally designed as a long rest clear debuff. If that was the case then Frenzy wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. It's the fact it takes a day per level of exhaustion to clear. Say you are forced to Frenzy to survive 4 times in a day. You basically need a whole week of downtime just to reset. Either that or you start every single day at a huge Disadvantage.

After a long rest every single class is good to go. Except the Frenzy Barbarian. Which would be fine still if the benefits to Frenzy were actually... good.

I mean they aren't bad. For one fight a day you basically pretend you're a level 11 fighter. Or have +3 damage to your PAM. It's good but hardly groundbreaking.

Definitely not worth losing out on every skill check for the whole day and that's just the best case. Waking up with Disadvantage on all attacks, half movement speed, and Disadvantage on all skills checks and knowing you have two more days before you can Frenzy again is ridiculous considering just how average Frenzy is as a skill.

Basically if exhaustion were long rest cleared, or there was something other than a 5th level spell slot (which can also only clear one level of exhaustion) then it would be viable.

[DanyBallon]

Sorry but exhaustion totally is the problem. It feels like it was originally designed as a long rest clear debuff. If that was the case then Frenzy wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. It's the fact it takes a day per level of exhaustion to clear. Say you are forced to Frenzy to survive 4 times in a day. You basically need a whole week of downtime just to reset. Either that or you start every single day at a huge Disadvantage.

After a long rest every single class is good to go. Except the Frenzy Barbarian. Which would be fine still if the benefits to Frenzy were actually... good.

I mean they aren't bad. For one fight a day you basically pretend you're a level 11 fighter. Or have +3 damage to your PAM. It's good but hardly groundbreaking.

Definitely not worth losing out on every skill check for the whole day and that's just the best case. Waking up with Disadvantage on all attacks, half movement speed, and Disadvantage on all skills checks and knowing you have two more days before you can Frenzy again is ridiculous considering just how average Frenzy is as a skill.

Basically if exhaustion were long rest cleared, or there was something other than a 5th level spell slot (which can also only clear one level of exhaustion) then it would be viable.

Getting exhaustion level if you push yourselves to the extreme fit exacly the Berserker trope. Having to rest afterward fits as well. Polearm wielding barbarian isn't a fantasy trope. I believe that the design intent was to allow players to be able to easily simulate typical fantasy trope, while still letting you enough versatility to build out of the norm characters.

[wunderkid]

Getting exhaustion level if you push yourselves to the extreme fit exacly the Berserker trope. Having to rest afterward fits as well. Polearm wielding barbarian isn't a fantasy trope. I believe that the design intent was to allow players to be able to easily simulate typical fantasy trope, while still letting you enough versatility to build out of the norm characters.

It fits, I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the actual effects of exhaustion with it being so hard to get rid of means it's too harsh.

Plus when pushing yourself to the extreme is the same as a level 11 fighter casually swinging at a tree all day long I have trouble getting behind it. Or a tiny bit more damage (in the short term, several hundred less damage in a day) than a feat will net you.

I'd rather just refluff a weapon. Take a pole arm, ask for the stats to be identical but for it to look like whatever fantasy trope you're going for. I can't see most dms having a issue with that. You don't gain anything. You get to look how you want. And now you don't suck for using class features.

[DanyBallon]

It fits, I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the actual effects of exhaustion with it being so hard to get rid of means it's too harsh.

Plus when pushing yourself to the extreme is the same as a level 11 fighter casually swinging at a tree all day long I have trouble getting behind it. Or a tiny bit more damage (in the short term, several hundred less damage in a day) than a feat will net you.

I'd rather just refluff a weapon. Take a pole arm, ask for the stats to be identical but for it to look like whatever fantasy trope you're going for. I can't see most dms having a issue with that. You don't gain anything. You get to look how you want. And now you don't suck for using class features.

Definately, we don't have the same expectative from the game :smallbiggrin:
I guess I'll step back for a while in order not to derail the thread.

[Skylivedk]

Rather than damage I think that barbarians just want to hit, hit everything regardless of how they're hitting to gain attention from the enemy: they have the tools to do it (namely reckless attack) and frenzy gives them another chance to smack the opponent in the face for free for one minute (ten rounds!).
I mean barbarians care about tanking: they have the highest HP reachable in the game! If this doesn't scream "hit me not that guy with flaming hands" I don't really know how could you define a tank.

What about an ability that actually forced you to attack the tank instead of your target (à la Mounted Combat), forced you to stay close to the tank (Crown Pala), made your attacks against the non-tanks worse (Protection), or punished you with damage when you attacked someone else than the tank (Sentinel)?



I think it's balanced: it's a 50% increase in dpr for ten rounds, and as a barbarian you can mitigate the drawbacks of exhaustion easily.

Well it kicks a lot more asses, extra d12+15 (GWM, because you can't not have it) every round for ten rounds, not to mention that the barbarian has a party which helps him tanking while he helps them not getting hit.

a) no, you cannot easily mitigate the exhaustion drawbacks. You can easily become mediocre by using a lot of your class features.

b) it is not a 50% increase.

Just from critting the GWM Barb has a 18,5 % chance to land the extra attack. On top, downing a foe will net you quite a few extra attacks as well (especially if you play with brains). If you presume that to be around 10% of the time (extremely conservative IMO), we're looking at a 30% increase. If we assume it is 20% of the time, we're looking at 25%.



In the end: frenzy is an ability on which you have to think before using it, one of the few abilities that are not brain-dead user free, it's not optimized, it's situational, but in those situations it's a life saver.

There's plenty of life-saving abilities that require thinking. None of them comes with one of the hardest debuffs in the game though.


I see the problem from a different angle, the classes are relatively balanced without feats and it's when adding some very specific feats that balance goes out. Instead of seeing Berserker as weak, maybe it's PAM that is just too damn good that no optimizer can live without it. Remove that specific feat, or tone it down and suddenly not every martials needs to be armed with polearms. Without feats two weapon fighting style is much more a decent option. With feats DW fails to meet the advantage that GWM bring to the table, Etc.

So in the end, the classes are pretty balanced and allow to represent a wide variety of fantasy tropes. Feats on the other hand aren't as balanced and are the ones that need to be tweaked.

I'm not asking for you to play without feats as myself I like them for the favlor they add to character creation, but we should focus on balancing them. Because, in my opinion, if something is just to good to not take it, that's an indication that their may be a issue balance wise. Trying to fix everything else in order to bring it on par will just lead to power creep.

The game-testing wasn't very much about balance (according to what I've seen). A lot of math was obviously not done. And with PAM, I agree. I'd like it to be more control-oriented instead of bonus attack granting (there's a long thread on that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483757-Nerfing-PAM&highlight=Nerfing+PAM)).

I mentioned earlier that I cannot understand why they tried to balance classes after two systems at once. I still fail to grasp why that is the case.

The feats are quite core for the fighter (and most other martial classes) not to suck/be extremely boring. Especially the fighter can be very bland without feats.

[/QUOTE]


The thing is that while you're fine with the drawbacks every single thing you've listed doesn't mitigate the draw backs. It stems them. The non Frenzy Barbarian keeps every single advantage. You have to keep raging just to not be completely useless.

The problem is it almost feels like exhaustion was designed to shut down every aspect of the Barbarian.

Level 1 - being able to grapple with advantage is arguably a core part of the class. Well after one Frenzy now that's not an option. I mean it is. But you are no longer great at it. You also get snuck up in, lied to, stolen from and feel generally like a waste of space outside of combat. I play a rogue/bard and I can assure you being able to do nothing out of combat for the sake of a single fight out of 8 really doesnt sound like a fun trade off.

Level 2 - unarmoured movement is again a core feature to the class. Well guess what 2nd Frenzy now drops you to being slower than the half ling. Sure you can pick up mobility to mitigate this a little but you pick up mobility. The other barb picks up PAM. (Mentioned below)

Level 3 - well now things are looking very dire. Not only do you have Disadvantage on all attacks your core feature of Reckless Attack now only grants you a normal roll. But still gives everything advantage against you.

Level 4 - those beefy d12 hit dice you get for being the manlinest class out there are now basically a wizards.

Level 5 - well you do make a very manly statue.

Level 6 - yes that's right your class feature can kill you. Which would be super awesome as a last ditch Rawr death or glory if you didn't have to stand still on half hit points with Disadvantage on everything.

The problem isn't with the class it's with exhaustion. And how long it sticks about for and how hard it is to remove.

QFT




Also yes it's a feat tax for PAM. But they get d4+X for the entire day. Frenzy barb can Rage once per day before they need mass downtime. So for one fight (out of 8) you get better damage. For the rest of the day you're basically just boring and generic and suck at all skills unless you want to burn on more frenzy.

I believe someone mentioned earlier the difference between Frenzy and PAM was d4+4 (7) vs d12+4 (10) so 3? And then mentioned over the course of a 10 rounds that adds up to 30 additional damage? Well that's for one fight. Then PAM over the next 7 fights (keeping the 10 rounds per fight, 7 damage per PAM hit) racks up 490 damage added in those 7 fights not including the 70 from the first fight.

So 30 damage for a fight. Vs 560 total damage in a day from PAM. Even if you say half miss, that's 15 vs 280.

So you take the Mobile Feat your movement is 50ft. And after your second Frenzy you now go 25. barbarian number 2 moves 40. You're now taking a dash action to go a mere 10ft faster than the other barb is strolling at. And he I'd doing 500 extra damage than you in a day. Each Frenzy you use does reduce that gap by 30 though so I guess you can close the door by killing yourself?

Just going to say now my maths has been terrible lately I'm half asleep so I apologise if I've gotten this horribly wrong

Solid point except you forget to add how often PAM procs on earlier levels which just further brings this whole equation out of Frenzy balance.


Getting exhaustion level if you push yourselves to the extreme fit exacly the Berserker trope. Having to rest afterward fits as well. Polearm wielding barbarian isn't a fantasy trope. I believe that the design intent was to allow players to be able to easily simulate typical fantasy trope, while still letting you enough versatility to build out of the norm characters.

And swinging two axes wildly isn't part of the Frenzy barbarian trope? What about Viking berserkers with axes/swords and round shields? They play a pretty damn big role in my entire region's mythical universe. The term Berserker was originally used to describe Anglo-Saxons. They mostly fought with shield and axe/sword, where the shield was an important part of their offence, and they're getting shafted by the current mechanic.


Sorry but exhaustion totally is the problem. It feels like it was originally designed as a long rest clear debuff. If that was the case then Frenzy wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. It's the fact it takes a day per level of exhaustion to clear. Say you are forced to Frenzy to survive 4 times in a day. You basically need a whole week of downtime just to reset. Either that or you start every single day at a huge Disadvantage.

After a long rest every single class is good to go. Except the Frenzy Barbarian. Which would be fine still if the benefits to Frenzy were actually... good.

I mean they aren't bad. For one fight a day you basically pretend you're a level 11 fighter. Or have +3 damage to your PAM. It's good but hardly groundbreaking.

Definitely not worth losing out on every skill check for the whole day and that's just the best case. Waking up with Disadvantage on all attacks, half movement speed, and Disadvantage on all skills checks and knowing you have two more days before you can Frenzy again is ridiculous considering just how average Frenzy is as a skill.

Basically if exhaustion were long rest cleared, or there was something other than a 5th level spell slot (which can also only clear one level of exhaustion) then it would be viable.

Or levels were short rest cleared, or you could save against the frenzy effects, or... there's a ton of ways of doing the Frenzy trope without encroaching on bonus action economy while simultaneously giving one of the game's most potent debuffs. If you play with feats, it's hard to ignore that Frenzy is ill-designed as it is. It's not for nothing it ended up on the lowest tier, two full tiers below its Totem cousin, when GitP did a vote (seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?453283-Community-made-Tier-list/page5&highlight=tier+vote))

[Fflewddur Fflam]

If I was DMing it, I'd just say a long rest removes any and all exhaustion points. Makes no sense to me that you could sleep for 8 hours or so and still be exhausted.

[Knaight]

If I was DMing it, I'd just say a long rest removes any and all exhaustion points. Makes no sense to me that you could sleep for 8 hours or so and still be exhausted.

Clearly you haven't been sufficiently exhausted. 8 hours of sleep deals with most things, but stuff like extended forced marching while not in the best of health is not in that category.

What frenzy represents probably is, unless the combat goes on really long.

[JakOfAllTirades]

One thing about the Frenzy bonus attack which hasn't been discussed so far is its versatility. I'm not going to argue about how much damage a Berserker Barbarian can do; currently mine's at 2nd level and he's already wrecking more face in melee than the rest of our group put together.

But there's one thing about the Frenzy bonus attack which is completely different from the bonus attacks granted by Polearm Master or Two Weapon Fighting: it doesn't require the Attack Action. A Berserker can take any other standard action and still make an attack with his bonus action! What does this mean?


He can Dash; with his Extra Movement and the Mobile Feat he can move 100 feet and make an attack. Surprise!
Or Disengage; a Berserker can attack, then move away, or Disengage from one foe to strike another. Surprise, Again!
And he can Dodge; this can help mitigate the penalty for Reckless Attack.
Use the Help action; move over, Warlord! A Berserker can make a bonus attack and aid another attacker in the same round.


I'm planning to bust out every single one of those moves at some point in the campaign, just to keep my DM guessing. This is going to be fun!

[Malifice]

Hey folks I require some outside opinions on this idea.

I have a player in a game I am running that is looking to go into Path of the Berserker at level 3 as the Totem and Battlerager options don't really appeal to him fluff wise but he is a bit worried about the exhaustion gained from Frenzy and I am inclined to agree with him that it seems a bit harsh just for one extra attack. I had thought about the exhaustion removal that some others do but I have been considering maybe instead letting just make another Attack action as a bonus action instead and keep the exhaustion cost on it.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

A good houserule is to allow Frenzy to be used 1/ long rest without causing exhaustion.

[wunderkid]

Well the other point that's not even been mentioned as far as I can see is what if you DM actually uses the exhaustion rules for other things.

You have to strain yourself before a fight breaks out? Well you won't be Frenzying today.

Push yourself with a couple of frenzies to survive early and then have to strain yourself later?

So the Frenzy barb is further hurt by the fact exhaustion is still a mechanic that can be applied in other ways. And each application hurts everyone. But hurts you far far more.

[DanyBallon]

And swinging two axes wildly isn't part of the Frenzy barbarian trope? What about Viking berserkers with axes/swords and round shields? They play a pretty damn big role in my entire region's mythical universe. The term Berserker was originally used to describe Anglo-Saxons. They mostly fought with shield and axe/sword, where the shield was an important part of their offence, and they're getting shafted by the current mechanic

I agree that the twf hand axe wielding barbarian trope is harder to represent in 5e, but still it benefits from frenzy, as without frenzy (unless you multiclass) your bonus attack you get from your off hand axe deals only 1d6 plain, no str mod. While with frenzy your bonus attack deals 1d6 + str mod, its quite easy to refluff it as your off hand attack deals more damage while in frenzy.
As far a for the sword and board barbarian trope, frenzy is fully compatible. If you have the Shield Master feat, then once in a while during your frenzy, you can forgo your bonus attack for a shield bash to shove your ennemy. Sure you could be shield bashing every round, but a good mix of shield bash and attacking twice over 10 rounds makes perfect sense as well.

[Skylivedk]

I agree that the twf hand axe wielding barbarian trope is harder to represent in 5e, but still it benefits from frenzy, as without frenzy (unless you multiclass) your bonus attack you get from your off hand axe deals only 1d6 plain, no str mod. While with frenzy your bonus attack deals 1d6 + str mod, its quite easy to refluff it as your off hand attack deals more damage while in frenzy.
As far a for the sword and board barbarian trope, frenzy is fully compatible. If you have the Shield Master feat, then once in a while during your frenzy, you can forgo your bonus attack for a shield bash to shove your ennemy. Sure you could be shield bashing every round, but a good mix of shield bash and attacking twice over 10 rounds makes perfect sense as well.

Both options are pretty weak.

Let me try to paraphrase:
If you were to design frenzy, would you use the current design or something else?

[DanyBallon]

Both options are pretty weak.

Let me try to paraphrase:
If you were to design frenzy, would you use the current design or something else?

Weak compare to what? PAM? I've already said that I consider PAM being problematic.

I'd keep the design the same as I believe exactly what come to mind when you think about someone pushing himself beyond its normal limits.

[Tanarii]

A good houserule is to allow Frenzy to be used 1/ long rest without causing exhaustion.
Having thought about it more, I agree.

Another would be 1 exhaustion free frenzy per long rest. Provided that disadvantage on ability checks was a real in-game penalty in that campaign. As it should be.

[DanyBallon]

A good houserule is to allow Frenzy to be used 1/ long rest without causing exhaustion.

Don't you fear that 1/day can be limitative at higher level (11+)?

What if it worked something similar to Action surge, where you get one or more additionnal use later on?

[Skylivedk]

Weak compare to what? PAM? I've already said that I consider PAM being problematic.

I'd keep the design the same as I believe exactly what come to mind when you think about someone pushing himself beyond its normal limits.

To the totem barbarian, the fighter, the paladin and the ranger if any of them go any of the feats that are not dual-wielding

[Tanarii]

Don't you fear that 1/day can be limitative at higher level (11+)?

What if it worked something similar to Action surge, where you get one or more additionnal use later on?
If it's too limiting for you, just make the first Frenzy per Long Rest not cause Exhaustion. Each additional one after can cause exhaustion as usual. That gives the Barbarian the option to keep pushing it after the first use, but gets one use without mechanical penalties afterwards.

[JakOfAllTirades]

If it's too limiting for you, just make the first Frenzy per Long Rest not cause Exhaustion. Each additional one after can cause exhaustion as usual. That gives the Barbarian the option to keep pushing it after the first use, but gets one use without mechanical penalties afterwards.

This is the first house rule for Frenzy I've seen that isn't broke as ****. I'll see what my DM thinks about it.

[SharkForce]

One thing about the Frenzy bonus attack which hasn't been discussed so far is its versatility. I'm not going to argue about how much damage a Berserker Barbarian can do; currently mine's at 2nd level and he's already wrecking more face in melee than the rest of our group put together.

But there's one thing about the Frenzy bonus attack which is completely different from the bonus attacks granted by Polearm Master or Two Weapon Fighting: it doesn't require the Attack Action. A Berserker can take any other standard action and still make an attack with his bonus action! What does this mean?


He can Dash; with his Extra Movement and the Mobile Feat he can move 100 feet and make an attack. Surprise!
Or Disengage; a Berserker can attack, then move away, or Disengage from one foe to strike another. Surprise, Again!
And he can Dodge; this can help mitigate the penalty for Reckless Attack.
Use the Help action; move over, Warlord! A Berserker can make a bonus attack and aid another attacker in the same round.


I'm planning to bust out every single one of those moves at some point in the campaign, just to keep my DM guessing. This is going to be fun!

dashing and making a bonus action attack is a feat. it is, however, widely regarded as one of the weakest feats in the game. that should tell you something about how good the ability isn't.

disengage? you've already got mobile listed in this build. just do an attack on each person nearby, and you don't need to disengage any more. conveniently, mobile is another excellent feat to pair up with polearm master, if you can fit it in. it makes your reaction attack much more likely to happen.

dodge... ummm... you realise that if you simply didn't use reckless attacks, you'd be able to make 2-3 (depending on feats) attacks instead... so, your frenzy barbarian can attack once with advantage, but the guy who just didn't use reckless attacks can attack at least twice (attacking twice is a bit like attacking with advantage, except that if both rolls were good you do twice as much damage). and in both cases, enemies don't have advantage to hit you.

which brings us to help. that's nice and all (though i'm not sure how many things i would agree a frenzying barbarian can help on) but... that basically means you're giving up the one thing you really do well. if we're stuck with the barbarian spamming help actions in a fight, i am probably more worried about running away than i am about your ability to deal a small amount of damage while doing so. or, alternately, if the fight is so trivial that your damage isn't needed... why on earth did you even rage, never mind frenzy, in the first place?

[JakOfAllTirades]

dashing and making a bonus action attack is a feat. it is, however, widely regarded as one of the weakest feats in the game. that should tell you something about how good the ability isn't.

disengage? you've already got mobile listed in this build. just do an attack on each person nearby, and you don't need to disengage any more. conveniently, mobile is another excellent feat to pair up with polearm master, if you can fit it in. it makes your reaction attack much more likely to happen.

dodge... ummm... you realise that if you simply didn't use reckless attacks, you'd be able to make 2-3 (depending on feats) attacks instead... so, your frenzy barbarian can attack once with advantage, but the guy who just didn't use reckless attacks can attack at least twice (attacking twice is a bit like attacking with advantage, except that if both rolls were good you do twice as much damage). and in both cases, enemies don't have advantage to hit you.

which brings us to help. that's nice and all (though i'm not sure how many things i would agree a frenzying barbarian can help on) but... that basically means you're giving up the one thing you really do well. if we're stuck with the barbarian spamming help actions in a fight, i am probably more worried about running away than i am about your ability to deal a small amount of damage while doing so. or, alternately, if the fight is so trivial that your damage isn't needed... why on earth did you even rage, never mind frenzy, in the first place?

You're absolutely right; the Dash + Bonus Attack mimics the Charge Feat!

And the Disengage + Bonus Attack option really strongly resembles the Mobile Feat.

The other options are situational at best, but they're free, and don't detract from the value of the Frenzy bonus attack at all.

So basically, the Berserker gets a Bonus Attack, the use of a couple of pseudo-Feats, and a couple of other options if he wants them.

And you're still not satisfied with all this?

Whatever, pal.

[wunderkid]

You're absolutely right; the Dash + Bonus Attack mimics the Charge Feat!

And the Disengage + Bonus Attack option really strongly resembles the Mobile Feat.

The other options are situational at best, but they're free, and don't detract from the value of the Frenzy bonus attack at all.

So basically, the Berserker gets a Bonus Attack, the use of a couple of pseudo-Feats, and a couple of other options if he wants them.

And you're still not satisfied with all this?

Whatever, pal.

Oh if this was purely net gain then it would be awesome. Still not like super amazing. You're basically playing a fighter. Who can only do it once a day. From level 11 onwards the fighter laughs smugly at you.

Which is the key core issue. Once per day you can get a little buff. And it's not even once per day for free you have to suck at skills the entire day too. And if God forbid you get exhaustion from another source or Frenzy more than once then it becomes a 1/2 or 3 or 4 day ability.

It's not only not the 'best' ability. It has the highest cost to use it with the longest refresh.

It would have to be VASTLY better to warrant the cost of using it.

[LordVonDerp]

Frenzy let you get a bonus attack that don't require to invest in a feat, that is not limited by weapon size or type, that let you add you ability modifier to damage without the need for a fighting style, that do more damage than a mere 1d4. That's the strength of Frenzy.
The only cost is an exhaustion level that go away at the end of the day (it's kinda like a 1/day ability, but that let you go overboard if needed as you would expect from a Berserker)
Thats not the only cost, you also take double damage from elemental damage.

[Misterwhisper]

Thats not the only cost, you also take double damage from elemental damage.

No, you don't.

Just because a Bear totem can take half damage does not mean that non bear take double.

They would take normal damage like everyone else.

While every barbarian in 5th edition that goes totem does take bear, and do not let them lie and say they know a guy who didn't, the option of doing something besides a Bear or berserker does exist.

You could play one of the other animal totems, or the crappy grappling archtype from SCAG.

[wunderkid]

Thats not the only cost, you also take double damage from elemental damage.

That's known as an opportunity cost. It's not a real cost

[JakOfAllTirades]

Thats not the only cost, you also take double damage from elemental damage.

Haters gonna hate make up random BS.

[Skylivedk]

This is the first house rule for Frenzy I've seen that isn't broke as ****. I'll see what my DM thinks about it.

I am not sure, I follow you.. Do you feel all the exhaustion level mitigations proposals have been super broken?

Or replacing the bonus action attack with some other benefit?


You're absolutely right; the Dash + Bonus Attack mimics the Charge Feat!

And the Disengage + Bonus Attack option really strongly resembles the Mobile Feat.

The other options are situational at best, but they're free, and don't detract from the value of the Frenzy bonus attack at all.

So basically, the Berserker gets a Bonus Attack, the use of a couple of pseudo-Feats, and a couple of other options if he wants them.

And you're still not satisfied with all this?

Whatever, pal.

More options are definitely a gain - and thank you for pointing it out - I hadn't thought much about the freedom given by frenzy.

I'd still find it pretty expensive to pay with one of the strongest debuffs, and one of the few stackable ones at that, to get this ability. It also still doesn't resolve the issue of frenzy not synergising very well with that many feats - in fact, it emphasises that point, since it reduces the amount of feats where you have redundant features.


No, you don't.

Just because a Bear totem can take half damage does not mean that non bear take double.

They would take normal damage like everyone else.

While every barbarian in 5th edition that goes totem does take bear, and do not let them lie and say they know a guy who didn't, the option of doing something besides a Bear or berserker does exist.

You could play one of the other animal totems, or the crappy grappling archtype from SCAG.


That's known as an opportunity cost. It's not a real cost

Opportunity cost is the only real cost worth considering in decision making. In other words: it gets no realer than that ;)

For the current frenzy ability at level 3 you pay:

2 ritual spell castings + totem feature (half damage from elemental sources++, advantage to allies or movement speed, etc.)

I'd say the cost is even higher if you are in a melee-based party, since that wolftotem would give you an amazing amount of value with certain classes (in particular rogues, paladins, GFB'ers and BB'ers).


Haters gonna hate make up random BS.

No need to get offensive. As explained above, seen from an economic mathematical viewpoint, taking double damage from elemental damage is exactly what you do. It isn't random BS - it's the opportunity cost.

Another way to see it:
Haste, a level 3 spell, gives all the advantages of Frenzy plus a few extra goodies with none of the drawbacks.

It's a level three spell. Two levels after the Frenzy Barbarian gets his core feature, the bard/wizard/sorcerer can replicate and outdo it twice a day with no expensive drawback - and in a way that stacks way better with other weapon feats.

[wunderkid]

I am not sure, I follow you.. Do you feel all the exhaustion level mitigations proposals have been super broken?

Or replacing the bonus action attack with some other benefit?



More options are definitely a gain - and thank you for pointing it out - I hadn't thought much about the freedom given by frenzy.

I'd still find it pretty expensive to pay with one of the strongest debuffs, and one of the few stackable ones at that, to get this ability. It also still doesn't resolve the issue of frenzy not synergising very well with that many feats - in fact, it emphasises that point, since it reduces the amount of feats where you have redundant features.





Opportunity cost is the only real cost worth considering in decision making. In other words: it gets no realer than that ;)

For the current frenzy ability at level 3 you pay:

2 ritual spell castings + totem feature (half damage from elemental sources++, advantage to allies or movement speed, etc.)

I'd say the cost is even higher if you are in a melee-based party, since that wolftotem would give you an amazing amount of value with certain classes (in particular rogues, paladins, GFB'ers and BB'ers).



No need to get offensive. As explained above, seen from an economic mathematical viewpoint, taking double damage from elemental damage is exactly what you do. It isn't random BS - it's the opportunity cost.

The cost of using the ability is a level of exhaustion. The opportunity of taking the ability in the first place is losing out on other features.

Saying double damage is misleading. It's technically true you will take double the damage from a fireball that a bear Barbarian will take. But the bear is the exception not the rule. The Frenzy takes normal damage. The Berserker takes half. This is a buff for the bear not a nerf for the Frenzy.

But yeah from a comparison stand point Frenzy vs bear.

Would be close to even. If Frenzy was just a making your Rage better. But being able to use it for 1/8 of the day (and still suffer for it)

And pre level 15 you could Rage then be dropped out of it the following turn if the enemy are clever. That's potentially a whole level of exhaustion for a single attack.

Perhaps better would be you only get the level of exhaustion of your Rage lasts the full duration (or X rounds). That would take the sting out a little. Still sub par. But slightly less so

[Lombra]

Personally I'm ok with the trade-off because I love the fluff, but if you don't mind house ruling a simple rebalance would be to, instead of using the bonus action to attack, add an extra attack to the attack action while in frenzy: this way you'll have a bonus action free to either dual wield or PAM or whatever bonus action you want to take ;)

[Pope Scarface]

As much as I love the exhaustion mechanic (in general, not tied to Frenzy), I'm beginning to agree that taking a level of exhaustion for 1 minute of getting a bonus action attack that can be replicated lots of other ways is something that sucks.

My favorite suggestion so far is that the frenzy barbarian gets half his rages per day as frenzied rages (or unlimited at L20).

[Zalabim]

First off, it's been a few pages so I'll say again that I believe the Frenzy feature hits every design goal they had in mind for it. That doesn't make it perfect for everybody. If your preferences differ, it's fine to change it.

Now, for the painful part. Math. A whole bunch of people aren't thinking about what they're saying. You don't know if Frenzy is better than Wolf Totem? You can check. Let me give you an example:

Barbarian attacks at +5 for 2d6+2+3 (12 damage). With advantage from Reckless Attacks, that means an extra attack is worth 11.2125 damage. (target AC 13) Fighter attacks at +5 for 2d6+3 (11.33 damage). With advantage that means 11.5283. Without advantage, that's 8.2. (Using Champion for simplicity) So granting the Fighter advantage is worth 3.3283 damage. So Wolf Totem and Frenzy are equal if Frenzy can be used (3.3283/11.2125=.2968) 29.68% as often as the Fighter benefits from Wolf Totem. At level 3, you can rage 3 times per day. If each rage lasts 5 rounds of combat, and you do indeed have a fighter in your party with no other source of advantage who always attacks a target within 5 feet of you while you're raging, then that fighter would benefit from Wolf Totem 15-18 times that day. (action surge) So if Frenzy gave you an extra attack on 4.45-5.34 rounds that day, it would be equal to wolf totem. Simply plug in your own party composition and tactics to see if Wolf Totem is worthwhile for you. This will change quite a bit from party to party, and even level to level.

Exhaustion isn't the only thing that takes multiple downtime days to recover. You also only recover half of your maximum Hit Dice on a long rest. The penalty from Raise Dead takes several Long Rests to clear. It takes several days to restore an Animate Dead army to maximum capacity. A lot of caster things take a bit of downtime to set up. If you think you're in a group that will have to save the world every day, Frenzy definitely loses some value. I think the standard assumption is that you have a bit of downtime after an adventure that taxes you for a day or two.

Anyway, Polearm Mastery has the cost of using a weaker die for all your attacks, not just the bonus attack, and has the opportunity cost of +2 ASI. You really have to work to leverage the feat for all its worth to make it beneficial, while GWM has a much simpler benefit since you'll use the power attack feature almost all the time, thanks to Reckless Attacks.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I think it's time to put this "double damage from elemental attacks" nonsense to bed. Since everyone here loves math so much we'll do it your way.

If a Wizard hits my Berserker with a Firebolt for 10 points of damage, how many HP does he actually lose? Unless the answer is in fact 20 HP, (hint: it's not) then NO he doesn't take double damage from the attack.

Seriously, people, this isn't rocket surgery.

[Skylivedk]

I think it's time to put this "double damage from elemental attacks" nonsense to bed. Since everyone here loves math so much we'll do it your way.

If a Wizard hits my Berserker with a Firebolt for 10 points of damage, how many HP does he actually lose? Unless the answer is in fact 20 HP, (hint: it's not) then NO he doesn't take double damage from the attack.

Seriously, people, this isn't rocket surgery.

It's double compared to bear totem which I assume was the original point.


First off, it's been a few pages so I'll say again that I believe the Frenzy feature hits every design goal they had in mind for it. That doesn't make it perfect for everybody. If your preferences differ, it's fine to change it.

Now, for the painful part. Math. A whole bunch of people aren't thinking about what they're saying. You don't know if Frenzy is better than Wolf Totem? You can check. Let me give you an example:

Barbarian attacks at +5 for 2d6+2+3 (12 damage). With advantage from Reckless Attacks, that means an extra attack is worth 11.2125 damage. (target AC 13) Fighter attacks at +5 for 2d6+3 (11.33 damage). With advantage that means 11.5283. Without advantage, that's 8.2. (Using Champion for simplicity) So granting the Fighter advantage is worth 3.3283 damage. So Wolf Totem and Frenzy are equal if Frenzy can be used (3.3283/11.2125=.2968) 29.68% as often as the Fighter benefits from Wolf Totem. At level 3, you can rage 3 times per day. If each rage lasts 5 rounds of combat, and you do indeed have a fighter in your party with no other source of advantage who always attacks a target within 5 feet of you while you're raging, then that fighter would benefit from Wolf Totem 15-18 times that day. (action surge) So if Frenzy gave you an extra attack on 4.45-5.34 rounds that day, it would be equal to wolf totem. Simply plug in your own party composition and tactics to see if Wolf Totem is worthwhile for you. This will change quite a bit from party to party, and even level to level.

Exhaustion isn't the only thing that takes multiple downtime days to recover. You also only recover half of your maximum Hit Dice on a long rest. The penalty from Raise Dead takes several Long Rests to clear. It takes several days to restore an Animate Dead army to maximum capacity. A lot of caster things take a bit of downtime to set up. If you think you're in a group that will have to save the world every day, Frenzy definitely loses some value. I think the standard assumption is that you have a bit of downtime after an adventure that taxes you for a day or two.

Anyway, Polearm Mastery has the cost of using a weaker die for all your attacks, not just the bonus attack, and has the opportunity cost of +2 ASI. You really have to work to leverage the feat for all its worth to make it beneficial, while GWM has a much simpler benefit since you'll use the power attack feature almost all the time, thanks to Reckless Attacks.

Thank you for using math. I've no idea why your fighter isn't using GWM though. It's kinda the point in this setup. Without it advantage isn't worth that much (answering from my phone so pardon my lack of math).

For your two other points:

A) casters: no single spell is equal to the level 3 barb ability. Besides: raise dead trades the worst debuf, dead, for a debuff significantly easier to handle.

Animate dead doesn't debuff you from being used. On the contrary, it's a stackable buff.

B) PAM is always on and also gives you a ton of reaction uses. It's probably the easiest way of maximising your action economy early on

Play how you want to. There's no BadWrongFun :)

[JakOfAllTirades]

It's true, there's no "bad" way to play D&D as long as everyone has fun.

There are a lot of bad arguments,though.

[SharkForce]

You're absolutely right; the Dash + Bonus Attack mimics the Charge Feat!

And the Disengage + Bonus Attack option really strongly resembles the Mobile Feat.

The other options are situational at best, but they're free, and don't detract from the value of the Frenzy bonus attack at all.

So basically, the Berserker gets a Bonus Attack, the use of a couple of pseudo-Feats, and a couple of other options if he wants them.

And you're still not satisfied with all this?

Whatever, pal.

it poorly mimics feats, one of which was planned on being taken (and thus renders the worse version obsolete) and the other of which is a terrible feat in the first place that nobody wants. that said, moving at regular speed and throwing a weapon also mimics the charge feat more or less.

when all the options it gives you are unimpressive (including the primary use of just adding a bonus action attack to your attack routine), and it has a massive drawback, there's a problem.

if it just gave you all those things all the time with no drawbacks, fine, it would be a pretty good ability. but it doesn't. it has a major penalty attached to it, that just keeps getting worse every time you use it.

[Zalabim]

Thank you for using math. I've no idea why your fighter isn't using GWM though. It's kinda the point in this setup. Without it advantage isn't worth that much (answering from my phone so pardon my lack of math).

For your two other points:

A) casters: no single spell is equal to the level 3 barb ability. Besides: raise dead trades the worst debuf, dead, for a debuff significantly easier to handle.

Animate dead doesn't debuff you from being used. On the contrary, it's a stackable buff.

B) PAM is always on and also gives you a ton of reaction uses. It's probably the easiest way of maximising your action economy early on

Play how you want to. There's no BadWrongFun :)

The fighter isn't using GWM because he's level 3 and it's to show how to do the math, rather than every possible version of the math to be done. 4.54 extra attacks is more then Frenzy gives for one use if combat lasts for 5 rounds, since the bonus action is used to enter rage on the first round.

There was a claim that exhaustion is the only time a PC isn't back to full after a Long Rest. That claim was incorrect.

Maximising your action economy isn't the same as maximising your effectiveness. PAM encourages you to end your turn not threatening at least one enemy you want to enter your melee reach on its turn, necessitating strategy and positioning to ensure you get its full value. GWM encourages you to hit things with a big weapon. That's a lot easier for a barbarian to manage.

By comparison, at level 5, starting 16 or 17 Str, against AC 15 with advantage, in a 5 round melee slugout, GWM is better than PAM unless you get a reaction attack from PAM on at least 4 of 5 rounds of combat and no other reaction attacks, and never get a bonus attack from GWM by getting a killing blow, only critical hit chance is counted. If you aren't raging, PAM cannot be better. This is the case for a mountain dwarf or goliath. A V. Human may have started with one of the feats, and probably takes PAM since it's favorable at level 1. A Half-orc has bonus crit damage which the polearm benefits from slightly more, but probably doesn't change the relative results.