Ways to copy specific named creatures or objects?

[magicalmagicman]

I feel a little guilty flooding the forums with my questions, but that's what happens when a guy is trying to research ways of getting what he wants!

So lets say you have a creature, and you etch spells on him either via tattoos (organic creatures), paint or carvings (constructs). What are some ways of copying this creature so you can study the spells on it?

Methods I thought of (please verify if they work. I'm just throwing as many possibilities hoping at least few would be viable)
1. Alter self. Tattoo the spells on yourself or another humanoid. If the tattoos are gone you just cast alter self on yourself to turn yourself into a younger version of yourself or another humanoid, a version when you had the tattoos.

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form.
and a younger version of yourself is a creature of the same type as your normal form. Difference between disguise self is that polymorph line of spells copy existing creatures where as disguise self explicitly states you control everything. No reason it can't work with Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object if it works with Alter Self. By continually removing and adding tattoos, different versions of yourself have different spells!

This quote however

You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.
Suggests you can't turn yourself into a specific creature, but you may attempt to by changing your features to the best of your ability. So I guess it all comes down to, can you alter self yourself into a specific creature?

2. If alter self fails, how about polymorph and polymorph any object? Can they turn you or a target into a specific named creature?

3. Silent image of the creature. You cast silent image and study the creature until you prepared all your spells. I wonder if you could silent image a spellbook even! Arguably though you can't concentrate on a spell and study the spells on the image. If that's the case, how about persistent image? Counter argument is, just like disguise self, you create a creature from your imagination/memory, the spell doesn't automatically copy an existing creature for you.

4. Simulacrum. With some cheese (dweomerkeeper), as long as you have simulacrum prepared, you can use supernatural spell to create a simulacrum of the etched creature anytime anywhere, without components, even if the creature is deceased, or no longer has the spells etched to him (you are cloning a specific version of him). Some debate on whether you can simulacrum younger versions (I don't see why not. The material component is essentially DNA right? Snapshot of the creature at that age).

That's all I got so far. Some additional suggestions would be appreciated!

[Gildedragon]

Alter self effectively changes your race. Add a disguise check on top of that

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could use a mirror of opposition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse) to create a clone, only instead of having it look into the mirror (which would cause problems, both because it would attack the original and would disappear as soon as it's captured), stuff the creature you want to study into the sack. It'll be cloned, but since it wasn't the one who looked into the mirror, it should be immune to oppositional powers.

Items could likewise be cloned, no matter how unique they are.

[RoboEmperor]

Veil spell is just what you're looking for.


The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble. Affected creatures resume their normal appearances if slain. You must succeed on a Disguise check to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual. This spell gives you a +10 bonus on the check.

From the disguise skill page

Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions). You must succeed on a Disguise check with a +10 bonus to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual using the veil spell.

So basically, alter self and polymorph fail. They cannot duplicate the appearance of a specific individual. They may help you look like them if you're trying to impersonate them, but I think they're mainly used to help you not get noticed by guards if you're a wanted criminal. Only the veil and simulacrum spells truly copy their physical qualities without your knowledge of their appearance.

Silent image fails

This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you.

Now an argument could be made saying that veil just helps you manipulate how one looks, but the exact wording in raw emphasizes the word duplicate in veil and visualized in silent image.

It all comes down to this:
Case A: The veil spell is just paint and your mind is the paint brush. Your mind does all the work like Silent Image.
Case B: You say dragon, and the spell automatically creates an illusion of the dragon.

The disguise check, because it is YOUR skill modifier, suggests Case A.
Lack of any wording that your mind does any labor suggests Case B.

One example is, you cast veil on a person to make him look like a troll. If you never seen a troll before, you wouldn't know how it would smell, yet for certain the spell will succeed on making someone look and smell like a troll, suggesting that it's Case B.

I personally think its Case B. Especially if you look at simulacrum. You could find a piece of hair and cast simulacrum to see who it belonged to, but simulacrum still needs a disguise check.

Because there is a lack of DC and only an opposed check to fool people, I think both veil and simulacrum are perfect physically but their demeanor is what gives them away in a spot check.

Another evidence it's case B is that the level 1 spell disguise spell is case A, and this spell is level 6.

[gogogome]

The way the veil spell is written, it seems clear that the caster's ability is directly proportional to how well the illusion works, so it seems like it's case A in your post.

But then you look at simulacrum and its worded practically identically, which means it's case A as well. But then simulacrum is interesting because it makes clones of specific named creature whether or not you know how the creature looks like or not.

Because disguise is a charisma based skill, maybe the physical aspect is only one part of it, and mental aspect is another. So you could say simulacrum makes a perfect physical copy and your disguise skill determines how well it acts the part, especially since the word likeness can be attributed to demeanor too.

But then you look back at veil, a spell that only affects physical attributes and 0 mental attributes, and it says you must succeed on a disguise check to duplicate the appearance, which suggests there is no mental component involved in this, only physical. But then how about the recipient's disguise check? If the caster has 0 disguise, and the recipient has 20, is the recipient still doomed to only get a +10 to their disguise? I guess that makes sense if the recipient is better at making disguises than the caster is, which again suggests disguise is physical only, and veil requires craftmanship of its caster.

Then we remember one important piece of fact, simulacrum does not replicate equipment, and arguably, tattoo ink is equipment.

Therefore if I am DM, I will rule that veil requires the caster to know every aspect of the target creature to succeed in a disguise check, and any part he doesn't know because it was covered in clothing has to be a guess, and loses the +10 disguise bonus.

Simulacrum will create a rough base shape of the creature and it is up to the caster to fine-tune the details.

In all cases though, simulacrum and veil cannot create a past version of yourself or a creature with spells etched in, because you can't know how the spells are written as a wizard.