Am I going to TPK my party? Help!

[Dousedinoil]

So first off, if you are part of my gaming group (Belroar and friends), leave now! No spoilers for you ;)

Anyways, I've been DMing for a few months now and my party keeps asking to fight a dragon. The problem is, I don't think they can handle it. The party is level 11 and will be fighting an adult black dragon (from pathfinder and only CR11) but I'm thinking it will result in a TPK. I've been going over the math and It doesn't look good. I want them to become better players without killing off their characters.

My first issue is that the group refuses to back down from fights. They fought a roper at level 5 before to "teach me a lesson" about picking their battles and how you don't always have to fight your way through the world (fighting a monster that has nothing to do with the plot or their goals). Only they got lucky, thus killing it.

The second issue is that the group isn't balanced. The party has 3 damage dealers and a cleric/paladin. They are super cocky thinking they can just out damage anything they fight. The only reason they survive most encounters is because a) They have persisted lesser vigor that allows them to heal between encounters and b) they are traveling with a Druid (leadership feat) that summons tanks to front line for them (my idea to help balance the party). Only, the dragon will be maneuver away from the tanks and be able to use his dragon breath and take them all out in a single go.

Finally, the group isn't exactly stellar when it comes to tatics or building their characters. They just built damage on top of damage. Here is the situation I have played out in my head. A large black dragon covered in darkness and obscuring mist comes barreling down on the keep blasting acid at his foes. The group realizes this while on griffons and make their way to fight him. The sneak attack rogue can't do much until he makes his way into melee while the semi-support cleric buffs his party with haste. The party ranger begins to shoot arrows but with a 32 AC (from Mage Armor) and is lucky to land half his damage with the concealment. The party wizard try's using fireball (which is great it will remove the mist) but the dragons 10 reflex pretty much guarantees he takes half damage. Now it's the dragons turn. He does a dragon breath 12D6 for average of 42 damage staggering everyone in the party. He then flies in ready to do a full attack next turn, which pretty much guarantees a kill. Here is my math:

Melee bite +21 (2d6+10), 2 claws +20 (1d8+7), 2 wings +15 (1d6+3), tail +15 (1d8+10)

17+32+20+14.5=83.5

That doesn't even include the improved vital strike which would do 4D6 damage. Given that the highest AC on the team is 21 with roughly 50HP, it's pretty much an instant kill.

I don't want to roll the punches. The last time I gave them a hard encounter like this, a PC was killed off. I want them to be better players but is this too much? Is it time they put their big boy pants on? I have a backup plan of the gods bringing back the party but wasn't hoping to use it this early. Help!

[togapika]

The real question is whether or not you think they would learn anything from losing the encounter

[Darrin]

Why exactly are you trying to "teach" them to back down from fights? The D&D rules system is very heavily weighted against you here. It's designed to incentivize the exact behavior the players appear to be enjoying, and there are few (if any) rewards for running away. The CR system is designed to deliberately underpower encounters so that the worst thing that happens to them is they "lose resources".

It sounds to me like you and the players have different expectations of what you want to get out of the game. You want to run a more nuanced game with intrigue, tactical planning, and character development. They want to kill monsters and take their stuff. While neither side is necessarily "playing wrong" here, if you don't talk about this mismatch OOC, this is likely to end badly, regardless of how well-balanced your encounters are.

[ATHATH]

First off, thank you for caring about your players and asking about this.

Maybe you could kind of ease into tactical play, using monsters that have legitimate reasons for not killing the PC's after killing them (maybe someone wants to capture them so that he can bring them to something that can kill them permanently, or he might want to cast Geas (remember that Geas still makes its targets want to complete the task, and the damage that it causes when the target doesn't complete the task is just meant to keep people from restraining the target) on them to make them carry out his nefarious plot, etc.), then switching to the stuff that can seriously hurt them?

[ATHATH]

The dragon could demonstrate its power by boiling a group of guards or something. Roll the damage in front of the PC's to show them what they're dealing with, then have the dragon start to circle-strafe them. If the PC's don't run and all die, do a timeskip to twenty years or so in the future. A (possibly Good or kind) necromancer casts Animate Dread Warrior on each of them (you can let them remove the template later after they find a source of Resurrection) and tries to make the party do his bidding/save his village, allowing you to herd them towards future adventures. OOC, after the game, tell the players that the necromancer idea was a backup plan, because they might think you're trying to railroad them.

[Chronikoce]

I think what might be a good idea here is to throw a weaker dragon at them but play that dragon to the tactical extreme.

A party not specifically ready to fight a dragon can be quite challenged when ambushed by one.

So let's say you throw something CR 8 or 9 at them as a test of sorts. Assuming they win but are challenged you could then have them come across information that indicates the dragon they killed was a runt and served a more powerful dragon who is likely to come looking for their missing underling.

Hopefully this will lead to some fun roleplaying where they are worried and planning how to deal with the big dragon while also teaching them some tactics for dealing with dragons so they don't get steamrolled when the boss shows up.

[mauk2]

the highest AC on the team is 21 with roughly 50HP


How are they 11th level with AC and hit points that low?

[Kelvarius]

As a DM, have you ever wanted to do a TPK while still advancing the story and without any hard feelings from the players?

I've done this.

Now, granted, this only works in certain worlds, and it might be too late to do so in yours, too. But the gist of it is as follows:

Start out by hinting that a certain player has been having strange dreams or visions. Nothing serious. Probably something they shrug off. Maybe just seeing a random person's day unfold for a few minutes. If they tell the party, fantastic. If not, no worries there, either.

Continue to build up on these visions. Make them more focused over time. Things start to happen as they did in the dreams/visions. That weird cart they just passed on the road looks suspiciously like that weird cart in their dream. They even both toppled over as the party passed it. Or maybe the party's favorite NPC had an unfortunate accident, just like in the vision. The bottom line is you make it clear things are happening. Ideally, at this point, the player in question will have told the rest of the party. But if not, it will still work out.

Now we get to the good stuff. You probably see where this is going by now. You give them a taste of the BBEG, or a dragon in this case. You show them just how hopeless and futile it is for them to fight. They may as well be level 1 adventurers for all the good they're doing in this fight. They have a standard day that leads up to said encounter, and after they lose (And they will lose), go into very specific and gory detail over how their characters have all perished. Each death only makes you grin wider at their folly. If only they had listened to everyone that advised caution.

And then, when the final member falls to the ground, lifeless, a mangled corpse of the valiant warrior they used to be... The original character with the vision wakes up, screaming bloody murder, thus waking up the rest of the party member from the last time they rested, wherever that may have been.

The character may or may not confide about these visions at this point. Either way, the rest of the party will know OOC something is up. But it seems likely (to me, anyways) that the character will explain the details. And the characters, but more importantly the players, will know without a single doubt that they can't win this fight without a serious change.

[Mystral]

Just give them a smaller dragon to fight.

Then, play that dragon smart and have him hit and run and strafe them with his breath weapon. Give them a way to escape. If they don't run, murder them.

[Dousedinoil]

The real question is whether or not you think they would learn anything from losing the encounter

The one player that died from hold person learned how important it was to have bonuses to your saving throws. I don't necessarily want them to lose the encounter, just be more focused on survivablity and less on trying to out damage the rest of the party. Most of all I want them to have fun but killing the boss in a single turn isn't challenging or fun.


Why exactly are you trying to "teach" them to back down from fights? The D&D rules system is very heavily weighted against you here. It's designed to incentivize the exact behavior the players appear to be enjoying, and there are few (if any) rewards for running away. The CR system is designed to deliberately underpower encounters so that the worst thing that happens to them is they "lose resources".

It sounds to me like you and the players have different expectations of what you want to get out of the game. You want to run a more nuanced game with intrigue, tactical planning, and character development. They want to kill monsters and take their stuff. While neither side is necessarily "playing wrong" here, if you don't talk about this mismatch OOC, this is likely to end badly, regardless of how well-balanced your encounters are.

I don't want them to run away from every battle or anything. I do however think that it's important for the PCs to be less cocky. They feel like their invincible because of the high damage output they have and it seems like they either blow through an encounter or almost die. I want them to realize that if they play poorly, they can die ... I just don't want to straight up kill a character they spent so much time playing.


First off, thank you for caring about your players and asking about this.

Maybe you could kind of ease into tactical play, using monsters that have legitimate reasons for not killing the PC's after killing them (maybe someone wants to capture them so that he can bring them to something that can kill them permanently, or he might want to cast Geas (remember that Geas still makes its targets want to complete the task, and the damage that it causes when the target doesn't complete the task is just meant to keep people from restraining the target) on them to make them carry out his nefarious plot, etc.), then switching to the stuff that can seriously hurt them?

I was thinking about doing this and so far this is my most likely route. I actually did this before but was caught off guard when the PCs kept fighting with 1HP. It was my fault for not starting with non-lethal damage but it's something I learned as a DM.


The dragon could demonstrate its power by boiling a group of guards or something. Roll the damage in front of the PC's to show them what they're dealing with, then have the dragon start to circle-strafe them. If the PC's don't run and all die, do a timeskip to twenty years or so in the future. A (possibly Good or kind) necromancer casts Animate Dread Warrior on each of them (you can let them remove the template later after they find a source of Resurrection) and tries to make the party do his bidding/save his village, allowing you to herd them towards future adventures. OOC, after the game, tell the players that the necromancer idea was a backup plan, because they might think you're trying to railroad them.

Yeah I have a backup plan in case of a TPK. It's basically a God brings the entire group back to defeat the BBEG that is trying to end civilization.


I think what might be a good idea here is to throw a weaker dragon at them but play that dragon to the tactical extreme.

A party not specifically ready to fight a dragon can be quite challenged when ambushed by one.

So let's say you throw something CR 8 or 9 at them as a test of sorts. Assuming they win but are challenged you could then have them come across information that indicates the dragon they killed was a runt and served a more powerful dragon who is likely to come looking for their missing underling.

Hopefully this will lead to some fun roleplaying where they are worried and planning how to deal with the big dragon while also teaching them some tactics for dealing with dragons so they don't get steamrolled when the boss shows up.

This is a good idea but honestly but didnt really want to give them such a low CR opponent. I want to challenge them and thought a CR11 shouldn't be THAT difficult for them. I mean it's not like it's a CR14-15.


How are they 11th level with AC and hit points that low?

Three of them are rogue (D6), ranger (D8) and wizard (D4). A wizard would have 4+1 at first level with 3.5 on average for the next 10 for a total of like 40. The rogue is 7 + 45 for like 52 hp and the ranger and cleric rolled poorly on their HD. They could all potentially be blown up by a single line of acid.


As a DM, have you ever wanted to do a TPK while still advancing the story and without any hard feelings from the players?

I've done this.

Now, granted, this only works in certain worlds, and it might be too late to do so in yours, too. But the gist of it is as follows:

Start out by hinting that a certain player has been having strange dreams or visions. Nothing serious. Probably something they shrug off. Maybe just seeing a random person's day unfold for a few minutes. If they tell the party, fantastic. If not, no worries there, either.

Continue to build up on these visions. Make them more focused over time. Things start to happen as they did in the dreams/visions. That weird cart they just passed on the road looks suspiciously like that weird cart in their dream. They even both toppled over as the party passed it. Or maybe the party's favorite NPC had an unfortunate accident, just like in the vision. The bottom line is you make it clear things are happening. Ideally, at this point, the player in question will have told the rest of the party. But if not, it will still work out.

Now we get to the good stuff. You probably see where this is going by now. You give them a taste of the BBEG, or a dragon in this case. You show them just how hopeless and futile it is for them to fight. They may as well be level 1 adventurers for all the good they're doing in this fight. They have a standard day that leads up to said encounter, and after they lose (And they will lose), go into very specific and gory detail over how their characters have all perished. Each death only makes you grin wider at their folly. If only they had listened to everyone that advised caution.

And then, when the final member falls to the ground, lifeless, a mangled corpse of the valiant warrior they used to be... The original character with the vision wakes up, screaming bloody murder, thus waking up the rest of the party member from the last time they rested, wherever that may have been.

The character may or may not confide about these visions at this point. Either way, the rest of the party will know OOC something is up. But it seems likely (to me, anyways) that the character will explain the details. And the characters, but more importantly the players, will know without a single doubt that they can't win this fight without a serious change.

I actually sort of did this earlier on. I made a vinyette where I got the party to play a group of black arrows out on patrol. They were ambushed and taken prisoner. Now the PCs are on their way to rescue those same characters. I mean, I wanted them to have fun and realize how badass their current character was. I think it worked too well lol. I think I'll do this but it would be too late to work into the storyline. Also the BBEG isn't around yet. Ironically it's at this massive battle before the dragon that gives his runewell enough souls to awake him. Good idea though.


Just give them a smaller dragon to fight.

Then, play that dragon smart and have him hit and run and strafe them with his breath weapon. Give them a way to escape. If they don't run, murder them.

They don't run lol.

[Crake]

Why exactly are you trying to "teach" them to back down from fights? The D&D rules system is very heavily weighted against you here. It's designed to incentivize the exact behavior the players appear to be enjoying, and there are few (if any) rewards for running away. The CR system is designed to deliberately underpower encounters so that the worst thing that happens to them is they "lose resources".

I just recently finished running the forge of fury, the second module in the sunless citadel adventure path, and there's a roper in there with a sidebar about having the players learn that there are some challenges above their capabilities. It does give ways for the players to come to a peaceful resolution though, and of course, the players are always welcome to try to kill it, though my players have a bard with great knowledge skills, so she identified what it was and insisted the party not anger it.

I don't think this is what happened with the OP though, simply because both sunless citadel and forge of fury have a dragon in them, so the players wouldn't have the complaint that they do :smalltongue: But it is worth noting that what the OP did was something that had been done in official adventures. It's not so much "teaching them a lesson" in a malicious sense, it's more to remind the players that this isn't a video game where the entire world scales with them and that every obstacle is definitely overcomeable in some way shape or form.

To the OP though: Have you never had an enemy spellcaster dispel their lesser vigor before? I'm pretty sure a CR11 black dragon has spellcasting, which just makes the whole problem even worse.

[Dousedinoil]

I just recently finished running the forge of fury, the second module in the sunless citadel adventure path, and there's a roper in there with a sidebar about having the players learn that there are some challenges above their capabilities. It does give ways for the players to come to a peaceful resolution though, and of course, the players are always welcome to try to kill it, though my players have a bard with great knowledge skills, so she identified what it was and insisted the party not anger it.

I don't think this is what happened with the OP though, simply because both sunless citadel and forge of fury have a dragon in them, so the players wouldn't have the complaint that they do :smalltongue: But it is worth noting that what the OP did was something that had been done in official adventures. It's not so much "teaching them a lesson" in a malicious sense, it's more to remind the players that this isn't a video game where the entire world scales with them and that every obstacle is definitely overcomeable in some way shape or form.

To the OP though: Have you never had an enemy spellcaster dispel their lesser vigor before? I'm pretty sure a CR11 black dragon has spellcasting, which just makes the whole problem even worse.

We actually stole it from that exact module. TBH I took actually took over from the another DM that ran that part of the module but no dragon or anything. And I guess I've been stupid, all my spellcasters have been bosses so their was no reason for them to care about the vigor as it was their last fight of the day.

Like you said, I'm not trying to be malicious by "teaching them a lesson". I'm just trying to make them better players. They are only going to get so far with the "blow it up before it can attack us" routine. I mean the wizard is already starting to drop off with his fireball build. He used all his feats and money on a one trick pony. He fought a fire immune creature before and was completely useless with no backup plan. Although, he did learn to use orbs when he started fighting creatures with high spell resistance. I mean I had to sit him down and tell him all about them but that's what I'm trying to do, help.

[LooseCannoneer]

Don't use the dragon at all. Let them go up to the lair, all right. That's okay. But there's a catch: the dragon has a group of Kobolds doing the "praise the dragon!" routine. Your players will laugh at the kobolds, my tactically-minded players do, and I've done this to them.

But these are Tucker's Kobolds. Other people are right. The CR system isn't good for teaching lessons through force. Teach tactics through tactics. Players will adopt the best way of fighting that they see. They've frontally assaulted each threat because it works. Showing them Kobold Commandos hitting them lightly, then escaping will teach them the value of cunning. Then, when the party is all in single-digits and running out of spells, the Kobolds have maneuvered them to the exit.

[Crake]

We actually stole it from that exact module. TBH I took actually took over from the another DM that ran that part of the module but no dragon or anything. And I guess I've been stupid, all my spellcasters have been bosses so their was no reason for them to care about the vigor as it was their last fight of the day.

Like you said, I'm not trying to be malicious by "teaching them a lesson". I'm just trying to make them better players. They are only going to get so far with the "blow it up before it can attack us" routine. I mean the wizard is already starting to drop off with his fireball build. He used all his feats and money on a one trick pony. He fought a fire immune creature before and was completely useless with no backup plan. Although, he did learn to use orbs when he started fighting creatures with high spell resistance. I mean I had to sit him down and tell him all about them but that's what I'm trying to do, help.

well, i mean, speaking of which, did you notice the roper's 30 spell resistance? Even a party in which that fight is CR appropriate need to roll a natural 20 on their CL check to overcome it, a party of level 5s would have had 0 chance of overcoming it, unless it was entirely the melees? I just honestly don't see how the roper lost that fight.

[Kelvarius]

But these are Tucker's Kobolds

Oh man, I forgot about those. You are an evil vile man.

[LooseCannoneer]

Oh man, I forgot about those. You are an evil vile man.

RPG players learn from power. Demonstrating that power is the only way to teach them. My party learned tactical thought from Tucker's Kobolds. Was it messy? Yeah. Did they become tactical? Yes.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm evil for using Tucker's Kobolds.

[Dousedinoil]

well, i mean, speaking of which, did you notice the roper's 30 spell resistance? Even a party in which that fight is CR appropriate need to roll a natural 20 on their CL check to overcome it, a party of level 5s would have had 0 chance of overcoming it, unless it was entirely the melees? I just honestly don't see how the roper lost that fight.

It was unbelievable. First attack was the ranger doing a called shot to the eye, landing a natural 20 doing max damage. Roper starts grabbing people and doing his thing, almost killing people. The fighter and cleric each manage to hit and do a bit of damage. Next turn? Another natural 20 called shot with max damage for the ranger. It was ridiculous. Funny thing was he was rolling 1's like crazy before the roper.

[Godskook]

My opinion is don't point a Dragon at anything you're not FULLY prepared to kill. Like, hardcore coup'de'grace-the-downed-before-the-cleric-can-stop-you prepared. The reason for this is simple: A safety-padded Dragon isn't an actual Dragon. If you're safety-padding your Party_ECL=CR dragon, but not telling your PCs that, you're doing them a disservice.

[Dousedinoil]

My opinion is don't point a Dragon at anything you're not FULLY prepared to kill. Like, hardcore coup'de'grace-the-downed-before-the-cleric-can-stop-you prepared. The reason for this is simple: A safety-padded Dragon isn't an actual Dragon. If you're safety-padding your Party_ECL=CR dragon, but not telling your PCs that, you're doing them a disservice.

This is why I don't want to send a CR8 or CR9 dragon at them. If they lose to a level appropriate monster, they should realize that they are level 11 now and monster battles are going to scale as they level. The best battles are the ones that accurately challenge the PCs. Having said that, their are lots of guards for the Dragon to focus their attention to if the PC's try and escape.

[Crake]

It was unbelievable. First attack was the ranger doing a called shot to the eye, landing a natural 20 doing max damage. Roper starts grabbing people and doing his thing, almost killing people. The fighter and cleric each manage to hit and do a bit of damage. Next turn? Another natural 20 called shot with max damage for the ranger. It was ridiculous. Funny thing was he was rolling 1's like crazy before the roper.

What called shot rules are you using? Also, are you rolling once and then tripling the result? Because that results in very swingy criticals, which is why the standard way is to roll three times instead. Also, were the crits being auto confirmed by something? Because rolling a natural 20 simply means it's a threat, ropers have pretty high AC, and with a called shot, it would have been even higher, so I can't imagine it would have been easy to confirm.

Edit: I'm probably reading into this too much to be honest, this thread isn't about the roper, it's about the dragon.

[Chronikoce]

This is why I don't want to send a CR8 or CR9 dragon at them. If they lose to a level appropriate monster, they should realize that they are level 11 now and monster battles are going to scale as they level. The best battles are the ones that accurately challenge the PCs. Having said that, their are lots of guards for the Dragon to focus their attention to if the PC's try and escape.

The thing is that a well played dragon should crush any party of equal CR in an ambush. Dragons are very intelligent and will use terrain, SLA, strafing runs, and any other advantage they can muster. They will prioritize high threat targets and ignore low damage hard to kill ones. They also will also flee if the fight goes South (unless it's a particularly arrogant dragon who can't imagine losing to humanoids) .

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are you going to TPK your party? Maybe (probably).

Should you do it? Crush 'em. If you want them to learn that they can't always win, don't let them always win. TPK's are an -occasional- part of the game. Sometimes the dice screw you, sometimes you come up with poor battle plans, sometimes the other guy is just plain better than you and you should've fled or surrendered; that's just how it goes sometimes. The only way to get this through to some people is to demonstrate it with a straight-faced, no nonsense ass whuppin'. Just do it.

If you want them to think more tactically, use tactically capable foes against them. The above suggestion of tucker's kobolds is a solid one. This is just like the situation in the previous paragraph. Sometimes people've got to learn stuff the hard way. Give it to 'em the hard way.

[Dousedinoil]

What called shot rules are you using? Also, are you rolling once and then tripling the result? Because that results in very swingy criticals, which is why the standard way is to roll three times instead. Also, were the crits being auto confirmed by something? Because rolling a natural 20 simply means it's a threat, ropers have pretty high AC, and with a called shot, it would have been even higher, so I can't imagine it would have been easy to confirm.

Edit: I'm probably reading into this too much to be honest, this thread isn't about the roper, it's about the dragon.

I took over from another DM. He wasn't the best when it came to rules and house rules. He didn't confirm his crits and had made up his own called shot system. I've fixed all that since but yeah it made it much easier for the party to kill a roper.


Are you going to TPK your party? Maybe (probably).

Should you do it? Crush 'em. If you want them to learn that they can't always win, don't let them always win. TPK's are an -occasional- part of the game. Sometimes the dice screw you, sometimes you come up with poor battle plans, sometimes the other guy is just plain better than you and you should've fled or surrendered; that's just how it goes sometimes. The only way to get this through to some people is to demonstrate it with a straight-faced, no nonsense ass whuppin'. Just do it.

If you want them to think more tactically, use tactically capable foes against them. The above suggestion of tucker's kobolds is a solid one. This is just like the situation in the previous paragraph. Sometimes people've got to learn stuff the hard way. Give it to 'em the hard way.

The thing is, I don't want them to feel railroaded and like they didn't have a chance against the enemy. Like someone said earlier, I would have to explain the whole backup plan after the fact. I might be over preparing and they could put their game faces on when they realize just how challenging the dragon is. They turn out to fight the dragon tactfully, I just wanted to see how more experienced DMs handled this type of situation with new players demanding a dragon fight.

[Jormengand]

Why exactly are you trying to "teach" them to back down from fights? The D&D rules system is very heavily weighted against you here. It's designed to incentivize the exact behavior the players appear to be enjoying, and there are few (if any) rewards for running away. The CR system is designed to deliberately underpower encounters so that the worst thing that happens to them is they "lose resources".

You must not have the same copy of the DMG as me.




15%
Very Difficult
EL 1-4 higher than party level.


5%
Overpowering
EL 5+ higher than party level.



Very Difficult: One PC may very well die. [...] the PCs should flee.
Overpowering: The PCs should run.

That is, fully one fifth of the encounters that the party faces, they should run away from.

[LooseCannoneer]

I took over from another DM. He wasn't the best when it came to rules and house rules. He didn't confirm his crits and had made up his own called shot system. I've fixed all that since but yeah it made it much easier for the party to kill a roper.



The thing is, I don't want them to feel railroaded and like they didn't have a chance against the enemy. Like someone said earlier, I would have to explain the whole backup plan after the fact. I might be over preparing and they could put their game faces on when they realize just how challenging the dragon is. They turn out to fight the dragon tactfully, I just wanted to see how more experienced DMs handled this type of situation with new players demanding a dragon fight.

When your players start compaining about how difficult Tucker's Kobolds are, flip to the page in the DMG describing encounters and say "Next time, they won't show you the door."

[Elgate]

Why not put them in an encounter they just can't win, and prove it to them?

I'm DM in a group where it's the 1st time for most of my players in pathfinder. They're level 3 and are about to meet beelzebub. Of course, I'm not planning on killing them here, but the idea is that I want to show them a really fearsome opponent, someone that could kill them with his simple presence. They are prone on casting detect evil on people. Guess their cleric is going to start crying on the ground.

They won't die, it's only a reflection of him, beelzebub was looking for another NPC, the same as my players. And since Beelzebub need time to deal with the other NPC, he will summon a minotaur to keep them busy.

you could do the same, keep the dragon in the background, and let them fight a minion or a summon of that dragon that can beat them. Have another NPC tel them to run away because he won't be able to hold the dragon for long. If they don't understand that they can't win a fight agaisnt the summoner of an almost impossible encounter, I don't know what will teach them. You may as well make the dragon summon other of the same minions that almost killed them, leaving them a single route of escape, bringing them to another dungeon. At that point, you'd have a good way to keep them moving: the dragon that control an army of creature you can't even fight fairly is coming after you.

[Segev]

3.5e dragons are a little over-strong for their CR by WotC's own standards, because the specific expectation is that parties going up against dragons will be doing so deliberately, and thus prepared for it. Spread rumors about the dragon. Let the party learn about it, and have them seek it out, rather than the other way around. Let them know it's a black dragon. Have some of the rumors mention NPCs they've encountered before who they view as "strong," and how they were defeated or slain.

Have the dragon be disdainful if the party poses no real threat. Melt away their tank-line in one round, and then leave. Give the dragon, perhaps, a goal that doesn't involve the party at all unless the party puts itself in the say of achieving it. Have the dragon be focused on the goal, and see the party as nothing but an obstacle. If it can get to its goal after melting the party's front line, while ignoring the others, have it do so.

And don't be afraid of 1-2 PC deaths at level 11. By now, raise dead is a thing. Just make sure they can recover sufficient amounts of the corpse (skeletons should suffice). Hopefully their cleric is a survivor, or they'll have to find one to raise him, first.

[Red Fel]

I'm gonna jump in at this point.


The thing is, I don't want them to feel railroaded

They're not. You're not forcing them to fight the Dragon. The party has insisted on it. They keep asking you for it. That's the exact opposite of railroading.

Railroading is forcing the PCs to do what the DM wants. You're doing the opposite of that. Nothing wrong with giving them exactly what they ask for.


and like they didn't have a chance against the enemy.

They don't. Well, more accurately, they'd have to be very lucky. But that's the point - the players are insisting on facing a difficult enemy. When you face a difficult enemy, there is a risk of death. I would strongly advise against reducing that risk. That renders the entire concept meaningless. They want to fight a dragon. They want to risk a TPK. Let them.


Like someone said earlier, I would have to explain the whole backup plan after the fact.

Don't bother. Give them their dragon fight. If they lose, they reroll their characters. If they win, lucky them, great job. Same as any fight.


I might be over preparing

You are.


and they could put their game faces on when they realize just how challenging the dragon is.

They won't, but it's adorable that you think that way.


They turn out to fight the dragon tactfully,

Nope. They gonna die.


I just wanted to see how more experienced DMs handled this type of situation with new players demanding a dragon fight.

If it's appropriate to fight the Dragon, let the players fight the dragon. Treat it like any other encounter - play the monster reasonably, let the players roll their best, don't be malicious but don't pull your punches.

Don't treat it as a teachable moment. If they learn from it, great. But never subject the PCs to an encounter to "teach them a lesson." That's bringing your OOC issues IC, and you don't do that. Give them a straight-up, honest fight.

https://i.imgflip.com/6qtrr.gif

[Kelb_Panthera]

-snip-

*applause*

That is everything I was going to say, you just beat me to it.

[Dousedinoil]

You must not have the same copy of the DMG as me.

That is, fully one fifth of the encounters that the party faces, they should run away from.

I've seen a bunch of DMs use this tactic to humble PCs in various podcasts and shows. The best part about it is, that at a much later date they can fight the same monster and defeat it. Their is nothing like that feeling of pride when you take down a monster that embarrassed you in the past.


When your players start compaining about how difficult Tucker's Kobolds are, flip to the page in the DMG describing encounters and say "Next time, they won't show you the door."

I'm still not sure I want to do this. My whole philosophy is for the PCs to have fun. They are the type of group that would hate to use an entire session without getting any xp out of the night. Especially with people being busy the past few weeks and not being able to play regularly.


Why not put them in an encounter they just can't win, and prove it to them?

I'm DM in a group where it's the 1st time for most of my players in pathfinder. They're level 3 and are about to meet beelzebub. Of course, I'm not planning on killing them here, but the idea is that I want to show them a really fearsome opponent, someone that could kill them with his simple presence. They are prone on casting detect evil on people. Guess their cleric is going to start crying on the ground.

They won't die, it's only a reflection of him, beelzebub was looking for another NPC, the same as my players. And since Beelzebub need time to deal with the other NPC, he will summon a minotaur to keep them busy.

you could do the same, keep the dragon in the background, and let them fight a minion or a summon of that dragon that can beat them. Have another NPC tel them to run away because he won't be able to hold the dragon for long. If they don't understand that they can't win a fight agaisnt the summoner of an almost impossible encounter, I don't know what will teach them. You may as well make the dragon summon other of the same minions that almost killed them, leaving them a single route of escape, bringing them to another dungeon. At that point, you'd have a good way to keep them moving: the dragon that control an army of creature you can't even fight fairly is coming after you.

I'm going to have a huge helms deep type battle for my PCs where they eventually wind up on griffons and start dropping alchemist fire onto artillery pieces. Meanwhile the keep they were defending will see the black dragon blasting away guards and taking them to the nearby gorge to drop guards to their deaths. The PCs can just run away from here but I doubt they leave the keep to fend for itself. They will choose the battle, not just be ambushed. They will face a much harder dragon at the end of the campaign, so this kind of works out.


3.5e dragons are a little over-strong for their CR by WotC's own standards, because the specific expectation is that parties going up against dragons will be doing so deliberately, and thus prepared for it. Spread rumors about the dragon. Let the party learn about it, and have them seek it out, rather than the other way around. Let them know it's a black dragon. Have some of the rumors mention NPCs they've encountered before who they view as "strong," and how they were defeated or slain.

Have the dragon be disdainful if the party poses no real threat. Melt away their tank-line in one round, and then leave. Give the dragon, perhaps, a goal that doesn't involve the party at all unless the party puts itself in the say of achieving it. Have the dragon be focused on the goal, and see the party as nothing but an obstacle. If it can get to its goal after melting the party's front line, while ignoring the others, have it do so.

And don't be afraid of 1-2 PC deaths at level 11. By now, raise dead is a thing. Just make sure they can recover sufficient amounts of the corpse (skeletons should suffice). Hopefully their cleric is a survivor, or they'll have to find one to raise him, first.

I'm going to be using pathfinders dragons. A lamia will also be controlling the dragon so it might be a bit more arrogant then normal. I mean, how often do you guys kill PCs? I've already killed two with one of them being brought back with a wish just moments later. I don't want to be "the mean ol DM who keeps killing off characters".


I'm gonna jump in at this point.

They're not. You're not forcing them to fight the Dragon. The party has insisted on it. They keep asking you for it. That's the exact opposite of railroading.

Railroading is forcing the PCs to do what the DM wants. You're doing the opposite of that. Nothing wrong with giving them exactly what they ask for.



They don't. Well, more accurately, they'd have to be very lucky. But that's the point - the players are insisting on facing a difficult enemy. When you face a difficult enemy, there is a risk of death. I would strongly advise against reducing that risk. That renders the entire concept meaningless. They want to fight a dragon. They want to risk a TPK. Let them.



Don't bother. Give them their dragon fight. If they lose, they reroll their characters. If they win, lucky them, great job. Same as any fight.



You are.



They won't, but it's adorable that you think that way.



Nope. They gonna die.



If it's appropriate to fight the Dragon, let the players fight the dragon. Treat it like any other encounter - play the monster reasonably, let the players roll their best, don't be malicious but don't pull your punches.

Don't treat it as a teachable moment. If they learn from it, great. But never subject the PCs to an encounter to "teach them a lesson." That's bringing your OOC issues IC, and you don't do that. Give them a straight-up, honest fight.

https://i.imgflip.com/6qtrr.gif

Thanks for this, it's reassured me in my decision to challenge the PCs with a level appropriate dragon.


*applause*

That is everything I was going to say, you just beat me to it.

X2

Oh and a quick question about dragon tactics that I want to make sure I don't mess up. The dragon doesn't need to have the feat "snatch" to grapple a character and drop him into the nearby gorge or river does he? He can just use like 100 feet of movement, make a grapple attempt and then continuing moving at half speed? Or do I need to change some feats? I believe I need fly by attack though.

[ATHATH]

Why is it even getting close enough to snatch someone? Its turn pattern should look something like this:

Turn one: Fly up as high as possible while still being within breath range. Breathe on whoever seems to have the most potent ranged attacks.
Turn two: Fly away as far as it can.
Turn three: Fly back and over to the other side of the PC's, using Flyby Attack to breathe on them as it passes by.
Turn four and beyond: Repeat turns 2-3.

Get Rapid Recovery for your breath weapon, and check out the True Dragon Handbook (I think its called "The Truest of the True: A Guide to True Dragons").

If you really want to make this unfair, have the dragon start from 1.5 miles or so away. Have it Scry on the PC's location, then cast Fly Like An Arrow (from Dragon Magazine #308) and fly towards them. As it passes the PC's, it breathes on them using the Flyby Attack feat. Once it's a mile or so away, it repeats the process. Unless the PC's ready an action to cast a Wall of Stone or something as it flies by or hide underground, they're dead.

[Dousedinoil]

Why is it even getting close enough to snatch someone? Its turn pattern should look something like this:

Turn one: Fly up as high as possible while still being within breath range. Breathe on whoever seems to have the most potent ranged attacks.
Turn two: Fly away as far as it can.
Turn three: Fly back and over to the other side of the PC's, using Flyby Attack to breathe on them as it passes by.
Turn four and beyond: Repeat turns 2-3.

Get Rapid Recovery for your breath weapon, and check out the True Dragon Handbook (I think its called "The Truest of the True: A Guide to True Dragons").

If you really want to make this unfair, have the dragon start from 1.5 miles or so away. Have it Scry on the PC's location, then cast Fly Like An Arrow (from Dragon Magazine #308) and fly towards them. As it passes the PC's, it breathes on them using the Flyby Attack feat. Once it's a mile or so away, it repeats the process. Unless the PC's ready an action to cast a Wall of Stone or something as it flies by or hide underground, they're dead.

I just the the flavor or RP of it. After doing some breath weapon runs, the dragon toys with a PC by picking him up and dropping him into an endless gorge, probably the ranger given that he can't defend himself in melee. I'm not going to change too many feats though, an unoptimized dragon is dangerous enough.

Also it will probably only be 50 feet away given the line is only 80 feet and will probably maneuver himself on an angle to hit as many targets as possible.

[Crake]

If you allow dragonlance material, dragonlance has a strafing breath feat which requires flyby attack and flyby breath (flyby breath lets the dragon use his breath weapon as a free action while flying, providing he does nothing else other than move that turn) which lets the dragon "drag" his breath weapon along a straight line, which hugely increases the area that it can hit in one go, making the players much easier to hit, even with a top down line breath (which would normally otherwise be just a single 5ft square). Its one of my favourite feats to give to a dragon.

[Janthkin]

Unless the PC's ready an action to cast a Wall of Stone or something as it flies by or hide underground, they're dead.I like Solid Fog for this job.

[Dousedinoil]

If you allow dragonlance material, dragonlance has a strafing breath feat which requires flyby attack and flyby breath (flyby breath lets the dragon use his breath weapon as a free action while flying, providing he does nothing else other than move that turn) which lets the dragon "drag" his breath weapon along a straight line, which hugely increases the area that it can hit in one go, making the players much easier to hit, even with a top down line breath (which would normally otherwise be just a single 5ft square). Its one of my favourite feats to give to a dragon.

I don't want to make the dragon even more difficult. It's still their first dragon fight. I will however incorporate this at a later date.


I like Solid Fog for this job.

The groups is so obsessed with out damaging one another that all of their spells are offensive. They won't be able to do something like this and will learn an important lesson.

[Mister Loorg]

I look forward to reading the outcome of this.

[Kelvarius]

I look forward to reading the outcome of this.

Now that you mention it, so am I.

Please post the results of whatever you decide, Dousedinoil.

[Red Fel]

The groups is so obsessed with out damaging one another that all of their spells are offensive. They won't be able to do something like this and learn an important lesson.

You need to stop saying this. "Learn an important lesson" really shouldn't be part of your vocabulary as DM. You're not teaching a class. You're not supervising an internship. You're not gathering your gangmembers to right a perceived wrong. You're running a game.

This isn't supposed to be "you versus them." It's supposed to be fun and engaging. You can't afford to have an antagonistic mindset of "teaching someone a lesson." It's neither healthy nor helpful.

If you run encounters with "teaching a lesson" in mind, there are really only two outcomes. Outcome the first, they don't learn the lesson. Lose but ignore it, or win by dumb luck, they don't get the message. That's going to frustrate you. If your primary goal is to teach and they don't learn, you're going to feel like your time was wasted, even if the players wind up enjoying. And if they don't enjoy either, it's lose-lose.

Outcome the second, they learn the lesson, at their own cost. Do you think that most people are happy learning that way? Do you think that most people endure humiliation, frustration, or futility, and come out of it thinking, "Wow, I'm so glad I had that experience"? I won't go so far as to say everyone, but most people aren't exactly happy to learn that they were intended to suffer in order to learn. In my experience, they tend to take that badly.

Get out of this mindset. Run a scenario with the intent to run the scenario. No win or lose, no lessons, no nothing. Just run the scenario. If they learn something, it's a fringe benefit. If they don't, no skin off your nose. But don't try to teach them a lesson this way. It's not healthy, it's not helpful, it won't end well.

[Segev]

I'm actually going to differ from Red Fel in substance, if not in advice.

People learn by experience, and they don't REALLY learn something until they've reasoned it out for themselves. They might be told something, and they might believe it, but until they integrate it into their own understanding, they haven't learned it and will, at best, apply it by rote (rather than knowing when and how to apply and adapt it).

In gaming, it is very possible to teach-by-demonstration. However, that really only works when you want to demonstrate an effective tactic to the players by way of having NPCs utilize it. "Teaching" by exploiting PC weaknesses doesn't work. "Teaching" by punishing them for not doing something doesn't tend to work.

I mean, yes, they will seek ways to mitigate frustrating elements in the future. But if it comes off as a "lesson" being "taught" because they lost for not being prepared against something, if that's your goal, Red Fel's right: you or they or both will be frustrated.

Your goal as runner-of-antagonists is to exploit weaknesses in the role of the antagonist. Use what the antagonist knows and can do to the best of his advantage. Your role as DM is not, however, to design antagonists to "teach them a lesson." It's to run an engaging game. Let them learn from experience on their own, from seeing your world and what's in it and what your bad guys do.

[Nibbens]

Now that you mention it, so am I.

Please post the results of whatever you decide, Dousedinoil.

Seconded. Or thirded as the case may be. :)

[Dousedinoil]

You need to stop saying this. "Learn an important lesson" really shouldn't be part of your vocabulary as DM. You're not teaching a class. You're not supervising an internship. You're not gathering your gangmembers to right a perceived wrong. You're running a game.

This isn't supposed to be "you versus them." It's supposed to be fun and engaging. You can't afford to have an antagonistic mindset of "teaching someone a lesson." It's neither healthy nor helpful.

If you run encounters with "teaching a lesson" in mind, there are really only two outcomes. Outcome the first, they don't learn the lesson. Lose but ignore it, or win by dumb luck, they don't get the message. That's going to frustrate you. If your primary goal is to teach and they don't learn, you're going to feel like your time was wasted, even if the players wind up enjoying. And if they don't enjoy either, it's lose-lose.

Outcome the second, they learn the lesson, at their own cost. Do you think that most people are happy learning that way? Do you think that most people endure humiliation, frustration, or futility, and come out of it thinking, "Wow, I'm so glad I had that experience"? I won't go so far as to say everyone, but most people aren't exactly happy to learn that they were intended to suffer in order to learn. In my experience, they tend to take that badly.

Get out of this mindset. Run a scenario with the intent to run the scenario. No win or lose, no lessons, no nothing. Just run the scenario. If they learn something, it's a fringe benefit. If they don't, no skin off your nose. But don't try to teach them a lesson this way. It's not healthy, it's not helpful, it won't end well.

Sorry if this looks like I'm bumping my own thread, I wasn't planning on responding until the session was over. I just wanted to reply to this because I felt like you read "teach them a lesson" and just stopped reading. Im not in the mindset of teaching my players lessons, with the intention of punishing players. I'm not actively trying to kill the PCs or have a me vs them mentality. My whole mentality as a DM is to have fun and work with each player to create an invested character that they love and want to grow with. I'm not the type of DM to railroad a party or make them do something they don't want to do. The players asked for a dragon and I want to give them an authentic experience without rolling the punches. My players respect me for this and the fact that I came on here seeking advice is a testament to giving my players the best experience possible.

I feel like you might be taking this a bit too personally. In what way is this humiliating and frustrating? I'm not embarrassing them with low level creatures like other have suggested. Im not running this campaign with the mindset of teaching them a lesson, I'm running it because that's what my players want. This is a difficult encounter that my group wants to fight but will probably lose. They will learn some lessons and become better players in the long run. Believe it or not but rolling high damage numbers all the time and killing monsters with low AC is only fun for so long. I want each and every encounter to be a unique experience and memorable. The PCs will constantly fight new monsters with different abilities and tactics. I don't see how this is any different. For example, I wanted to teach the PCs about healing belts, so I had an NPC have one first. Once they saw him it it, they wanted their own. I've had encounters where the group first comes across spell immunity. Each session is in itself a lesson, if you think of that as being negative is just beyond me.

[Renen]

Can you just have them fight a good dragon? One that will just beat them up real hard without killing them because "lol silly adventurers thought they can take me"

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can you just have them fight a good dragon? One that will just beat them up real hard without killing them because "lol silly adventurers thought they can take me"

You could probably get away with that if they attack one of the metallic ones, a brass or a copper maybe. However, that requires coming up with a reason for the party to be in conflict with one without being evil themselves.

None of the chromatics are likely to leave more than one survivor and even then only after trouncing him, stripping him, and ensuring that he will spread the tale of the woe he wrought upon them as a lesson to other foolish lesser creatures.

[Bucky]

If the goal is to "teach the party a lesson", there's no reason to fight to the death. You can have the dragon strafe them a few times, get bored and leave.

[RegalKain]

My players know me as a lethal DM, they learned this because I dont pull punches. We still have fun when we play ,drop clues to its strengths have an order of Paladin's pass them on the road at a breakneck pace, with a scout or something stopping to warn the party of a dangerous dragon in the area ahead. By the time the players catch up, they see the paladins getting strafed to death, slaughtered wholesale

Alternatively dont throw a single CR 11 dragon at them throw 2 8s as a young pair of dragons who are looking g for a new hunting ground. Easier to kill solo, but still dangerous also not as one-shot. Bursty

P.s. sorry for typos on my phone

[ATHATH]

You could probably get away with that if they attack one of the metallic ones, a brass or a copper maybe. However, that requires coming up with a reason for the party to be in conflict with one without being evil themselves.

None of the chromatics are likely to leave more than one survivor and even then only after trouncing him, stripping him, and ensuring that he will spread the tale of the woe he wrought upon them as a lesson to other foolish lesser creatures.
Isn't there a Dracorage thing that makes Dragons go beserk and rampage across the countryside? You could easily say that the Dragon's "inner goodness" was able to muster up enough willpower to keep the Dragon from killing the PC's.

Depending on how experienced the players are, they might just attack the Dragon for "being a Dragon", not knowing that Dragons are (usually) color-coded and not always Evil.

[Dousedinoil]

If the goal is to "teach the party a lesson", there's no reason to fight to the death. You can have the dragon strafe them a few times, get bored and leave.

The goal was never to just teach them a lesson. The goal is to give the party an encounter that they wanted in a dragon. I don't want to TPK and I don't want to pull punches.


Can you just have them fight a good dragon? One that will just beat them up real hard without killing them because "lol silly adventurers thought they can take me"

I've done a pretty good job throughout my adventure to foreshadow everything. The black dragon was already hinted at and would be hard to incorporate into the story.

QUOTE=RegalKain;20643140]My players know me as a lethal DM, they learned this because I dont pull punches. We still have e fun when we play drop clues to its strengths have an order of Paladin's pass them on the road at a breakneck pace, with a scout or something stopping to warn the party of a dangerous dragon in the area ahead. By the time the players catch up, they see the paladins getting started to death, slaughtered wholesale

Alternatively dont throw a single CR 11 dragon at them throw 2 8s as a young pair of dragons who are looking g for a new hunting ground. Easier to kill solo, but still dangerous also not as one-shot. Bursty

P.s. sorry for typos on my phone[/QUOTE]

This is a good idea and one that I'm going to heavily consider.

[Merkey858]

So first off, if you are part of my gaming group (Belroar and friends), leave now! No spoilers for you ;)

Anyways, I've been DMing for a few months now and my party keeps asking to fight a dragon. The problem is, I don't think they can handle it. The party is level 11 and will be fighting an adult black dragon (from pathfinder and only CR11) but I'm thinking it will result in a TPK. I've been going over the math and It doesn't look good. I want them to become better players without killing off their characters.

My first issue is that the group refuses to back down from fights. They fought a roper at level 5 before to "teach me a lesson" about picking their battles and how you don't always have to fight your way through the world (fighting a monster that has nothing to do with the plot or their goals). Only they got lucky, thus killing it.

The second issue is that the group isn't balanced. The party has 3 damage dealers and a cleric/paladin. They are super cocky thinking they can just out damage anything they fight. The only reason they survive most encounters is because a) They have persisted lesser vigor that allows them to heal between encounters and b) they are traveling with a Druid (leadership feat) that summons tanks to front line for them (my idea to help balance the party). Only, the dragon will be maneuver away from the tanks and be able to use his dragon breath and take them all out in a single go.

Finally, the group isn't exactly stellar when it comes to tatics or building their characters. They just built damage on top of damage. Here is the situation I have played out in my head. A large black dragon covered in darkness and obscuring mist comes barreling down on the keep blasting acid at his foes. The group realizes this while on griffons and make their way to fight him. The sneak attack rogue can't do much until he makes his way into melee while the semi-support cleric buffs his party with haste. The party ranger begins to shoot arrows but with a 32 AC (from Mage Armor) and is lucky to land half his damage with the concealment. The party wizard try's using fireball (which is great it will remove the mist) but the dragons 10 reflex pretty much guarantees he takes half damage. Now it's the dragons turn. He does a dragon breath 12D6 for average of 42 damage staggering everyone in the party. He then flies in ready to do a full attack next turn, which pretty much guarantees a kill. Here is my math:

Melee bite +21 (2d6+10), 2 claws +20 (1d8+7), 2 wings +15 (1d6+3), tail +15 (1d8+10)

17+32+20+14.5=83.5

That doesn't even include the improved vital strike which would do 4D6 damage. Given that the highest AC on the team is 21 with roughly 50HP, it's pretty much an instant kill.

I don't want to roll the punches. The last time I gave them a hard encounter like this, a PC was killed off. I want them to be better players but is this too much? Is it time they put their big boy pants on? I have a backup plan of the gods bringing back the party but wasn't hoping to use it this early. Help!

I have never Dm'd 5e and am having difficulty figuring what monsters to put against a party of 6 7th lev PC's. They are pretty balanced with a monk, paladin, cleric, warlock, fighter, and rogue. I've played with the CR rules in the DMG and easy to deadly encounters. There are just certain features in monsters that might only be CR 4's but have AC 20 and immunity or resistances to numerous energies as well as advantage on all spell saving throws. For instance, the party against 2 helmed horrors. It doesn't make for a particularly difficult encounter but it seems as though the party might have a lot tougher time than the Cr matchup would suggest. A couple other encounters that I'm wondering about.

2 Cambions (CR5 - 5400 XP encounter) seems harder
1 mezzolith (CR 5 - 1800 XP encounter) cloudkill ? worried about dropping a few PC's
6 ogres (CR2 -5400 XP encounter) - 2 fireballs and they are gone (seems to easy)
4 mummies (CR 3 - 5600 XP encounter) - seems easier than that.

Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Here's how I would handle it: if the players want to face a dragon they need to find one in character. I'm not going to drop a dragon on them just because they want to test themselves in a void. Dragons don't just go around randomly attacking people. They are cunning creatures who have reasons for what they do. The players can use gather information to find out if any regions have been plagued by evil dragons. Rumors of a young adult red burning up farmland and demanding tribute from small cities, or a adult black that's taken over a marsh and driven out a Druidic circle. Maybe there's an old white that lives on top of the world's largest mountain who rules over a clan of frost giants. Whatever the case, the players have to come to it. They would have to learn the hard way that many dragons have minions in its service that are just as challenging in numbers as a single dragon on it's own. The dragon would utilize it's environment, and take every advantage it can get. If at any point the characters are looking like they might die I go for blood. I pull no punches as DM.

[Dousedinoil]

Hey everyone! So my group finally made it the black dragon! I figured I would keep my promise and post what happened.

So I definitely overthought this. My group actually handled the dragon fairly well. They didn't run in guns blazing. Rather, they retreated to a keep and fought the dragon on their own terms. They were able to catch it off guard with some help from invisibility. That's not to say they didn't struggle, the party lost one PC, their cohort from leadership and their animal companion. Another was bleeding out and they barely avoided the TPK. The only reason the rest survived was one character rolling well and being able to Dispel magic against the dragon before he was killed.

At the end of the day, I did some improvising and played off the players to give them a fair chance. That's not to say I pulled punches but I rewarded the party for being clever. They had a TON of fun and absolutely loved the entire session. Thanks everyone for the help and input!

[Segev]

Sounds like an intense fight. I hope everyone had fun! :smallsmile: