Highest survivability classes? [3.PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

What classes would you all say have the most effective tool set for surviving most adversities that adventurers would face? The caveat being that this is discounting the use of spells or powers (maneuvers are fair game), gear or feats; it has to come completely from their class features.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, spells/powers are class features. Can't count maneuvers if you aren't counting those. But I get what you are asking; just from class features, what class has the most survivability. Hmm. Well, paladins have pretty good saves and a host of immunities, despite some of their problems.

[Thealtruistorc]

Warders are built to last, and it shows. Strong saves, lots of HP, Stalwart, and the amazing Iron Tortoise line of maneuvers all contribute to a bulky and hard-to-kill character.

For second, I would say paladin/antipaladin. A copious save bonus goes a long way towards keeping one alive, as it often allows you to escape danger or endure a great deal of punishment (look at O'Chul). Tack on a bunch of immunities and you'll remain safe from most threats.

[RoboEmperor]

Wizard, hands down.

Specialist Conjuration Wizard can teleport 10ft several times a day, dodging any attack.

Mage Armor (Hour/level) + Alter Self (10min/level) + Shield (1min/level) results in +16 AC. So your wizard has +16 ac at level 3, in addition to teleporting out of spells and attacks.

Lots of spells like false life, polymorph, mirror image, invisibility, etc. gives you temporary hp and miss chance, so stack that with AC and teleport, you can't die.

There are also lots of spells that give bonus to saving throws.

Also, reserve feats like minor shapeshift lets you regain temporary hitpoints once per round equal to your caster level, so if opponents fail to deal your caster level in hitpoints on their turn, you're practically invincible.

[Trampaige]

Which does work all well and good until you're grappled, or silenced, or grappled in a silence. Then only some of those work. They're not foolproof. Plus, you can really only count on mage armor being up, because burning spells on alter self and shield between battles is unrealistic, and action economy means it's actually pretty hard to get buffs up in a fight. If your DM lets you buff before every encounter, great, but a web or glitterdust is probably a better way to start a fight than Alter Self... I did not enjoy being a buff reliant gish tank for those reasons.

That said, anybody with access to sorcerer spells benefits greatly from Wings of Cover, the lvl2 sorcerer spell, immediate action 'neener neener, that doesn't affect me,' that even allows you to help protect adjacent party members as your caster level increases.

A dip into the Divine Oracle prestige for modified evasion, even in heavy plate, is a popular option for survivability.

[Quertus]

I'm gonna have to go with illithid savant. :smallwink:

[AvatarVecna]

Which does work all well and good until you're grappled, or silenced, or grappled in a silence. Then only some of those work. They're not foolproof. Plus, you can really only count on mage armor being up, because burning spells on alter self and shield between battles is unrealistic, and action economy means it's actually pretty hard to get buffs up in a fight. If your DM lets you buff before every encounter, great, but a web or glitterdust is probably a better way to start a fight than Alter Self... I did not enjoy being a buff reliant gish tank for those reasons.

That said, anybody with access to sorcerer spells benefits greatly from Wings of Cover, the lvl2 sorcerer spell, immediate action 'neener neener, that doesn't affect me,' that even allows you to help protect adjacent party members as your caster level increases.

A dip into the Divine Oracle prestige for modified evasion, even in heavy plate, is a popular option for survivability.

While being silenced can certainly be an issue for mages without Silent Spell, being grappled mostly stops being a problem after level 5 (when you pick up Fly and can avoid ever having to get close to melee range) and becomes a nonexistent problem after level 7 (Freedom of Movement no-sells grapplers and lasts for over an hour at the level you get it, so it's a good long-term buff for those wizards that are smart enough to try and figure out what they're about to fight before the fights starts; similarly, if the mage gets Polymorph off before getting Grappled, they likely won't be easily grappled in their new form).

Once you get to even higher levels (11-ish), you start having to deal with scry-and-die wizards who only leave their fortified wizard's tower to pick specific fights; once you get even higher (15-ish) you start dealing with wizards that can walk around with lots of all-day buffs, whether from naturally-long durations, high CL+medium durations, duration-extending metamagic, or magic items; once you get even higher (17+), you start dealing with a wizard who can literally spend all day in their unlocatable, unenterable demiplane as they toss minions/clones (possibly an armies worth) at you through the dimensions.

A lot of that stuff, particularly the 17+ stuff, is higher-op tactics, but they're legitimate ones. The 15-ish stuff will see their effectiveness vary more from wizard to wizard, depending on what particular methods they prefer (illusionists will have very different all-day buffs than abjurers or transmuters, while generalists will have some mix)

[AnonymousPepper]

If we leave tier 1 and tier 0 out of it, it's probably the Pathfinder Paladin. They have stupidly good saves all the time and naturally build a crap ton of AC and HP, and they have options for getting good touch AC as well on top of potential immunities to a lot of common CC debuffs. A wizard will usually take multiple turns to shred an equally-optimized paladin barring an unfortunate natural 1; often, in a 3.PF setting, the best bet is pure direct damage using quickened True Strike + Avasculate to chunk half his HP (unless he's immune to death effects or has SR you can't penetrate) and then Quickened True Strike + heavily metamagic'd Orb of X a few times.

[Mehangel]

Well a Nimble (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/nimble-blade) Gifted (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/gifted-blade) Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) at level 10+ has enough versatility with their floating bladeskill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/blade-skills) to ALWAYS have a tool that may assist in overcoming any encounter (which is one of the main reasons it is considered a tier 3 build).

EDIT: Also Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis), definitely Aegis.

[RoboEmperor]

Which does work all well and good until you're grappled, or silenced, or grappled in a silence. Then only some of those work. They're not foolproof. Plus, you can really only count on mage armor being up, because burning spells on alter self and shield between battles is unrealistic, and action economy means it's actually pretty hard to get buffs up in a fight. If your DM lets you buff before every encounter, great, but a web or glitterdust is probably a better way to start a fight than Alter Self... I did not enjoy being a buff reliant gish tank for those reasons.

Alter spell is 10min/level, more than long enough for several fights. Especially early game where you're basically done after 1-2 fights in a row, and if not you could always cast alter self after the BFC you mentioned too. So first they can't get to you because of web, glitterdust, or grease, then if they do get to you, you have aforementioned buffs to like 25-28ac, and you have a teleport to make sure you don't get grappled/silenced.

Throw in precocious apprentice and fiery burst and you are without a doubt not only hardest to kill, but also the most powerful character in the game for levels 1-4.

[Gildedragon]

Outside of tiers 1 and 2.
Factotums
they are hardy and versatile. A single factotum can escape a jailcell, talk the guards into giving him back his stuff, and run out the front door before they realize they've been had.

[Sayt]

Invulnerable Rager Barbarian with Superstition and Improved Stalwart Gets a nice little pile of DR and a relatively hefty save bonus.

That's excluding a Wizard with Craft Contingent Spell and an arbitrary number of abjurations, which doesn't actually interact with anything it doesn't want to, because Wizards. :smallannoyed:

[RoboEmperor]

Ah crap, missed the pathfinder part. Ignore what I said. Pathfinder wizards are quite tame I believe.

[Feint's End]

If well optimised most forms of psionic classes (IMO Psions are quite a bit tankier than wizards due to easier access to buffed hp). Vigor and Share Pain make you almost unkillable by hitpoint damage and other powers can ramp up your saves, ac etc.

[Alex12]

EDIT: Also Aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis), definitely Aegis.

This. Aegis is, broadly speaking, a slab of defenses. It's easy to have, simultaneously, all of the following defenses: Evasion, Stalwart, DR, Energy Resistance (based on your level), Spell Resistance, a Con bonus, magical full plate, and limited access to the martial disciplines of your choice (which offer a lot of cool defensive abilities)
EDIT: I forgot Fortification. Also, when I say that it's easy to get those things, I mean that you can have all of those things (aside from full plate, which only comes online at level 7- before then it's half plate) at level 4 with absolutely no build investment more than "This is what I want my armor to do today"

[Abithrios]

Ah crap, missed the pathfinder part. Ignore what I said. Pathfinder wizards are quite tame I believe.

The title does say 3.PF, so at least some 3.5 is allowed. They say that the tier system still exists in pathfinder, but I don't think it is as strongly enforced as 3.5. I remember a thread in which someone was asking how pathfinder clerics get to tier one before level ten, and most of the spells mentioned were too small to replace actually being skilled at what you are trying to do, too high level, too short of a duration (without 3.5's persistent spell-pathfinder's version is unrelated), or 3.5. That and many of the weakest classes in 3.5 have been buffed either in the core rulebook or in more recent supplements.

If you don't want a tier one or two answer, I would go with pathfinder paladin. They are less MAD than in 3.5, so their saves are likely better. They eventually get a number of immunities. Mercies let them cure themselves of even more conditions. Lay on hands is one of the only action efficient ways of in-combat healing in all of 3.PF. Third party pathfinder material can get even better, but mix in a few levels of oracle, and you can keep your entire party healthy without using anything but swift actions in combat.

[Snowbluff]

Assuming no T1-2, aand no third party, PF paladin's Lay on Hands is pretty good. The Tiefling Alternate Favored Class bonus is +1 HP per use of Lay on Hands per level, giving an extra +20 HP per at level 20. After that, there is the Fey Foundling Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling) to add 2 HP per die rolled to LoH, or 40 over 20 levels.

After that, to finish the build you want to pickup magic disarming via Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder).

[Gnaeus]

PF paladin is good. But even without spells, I think Synthesist Summoner has to be mentioned somewhere. Bunch of bonus hp, good armor, good movement options, and a pile of resistances and immunities easily customizable to what you plan on fighting.

[SorenKnight]

Synthesist Summoner is a contestant. You can grab energy immunities as evolutions, you can get DR/magic from evolutions or DR/evil from the Aasimar favored class bonus and you have a pool of potentially regenerating temporary HP from your transformation.

[Captain Morgan]

For Pathfinder, I echo the Paladin for the reasons already mentioned, plus CHA to AC when smiting. It also has most of its benefits almost always on. Where a Superstitious Barbarian is more fragile when not raging, can die from coming out of rage, and can potentially miss out on buffs or condition healing because of forced saves. And a spellcaster can always be suprised by the DM, and not get the chance to buff.

Honorable mention goes to dwarves with steel soul, glory of old, and probably playing a monk or inquisitor. (If you multiclass those two, even better for saves.) +5 against spells, racial bonuses to key save and survival stats, and great class save progression. Plus evasion or stalwart. Use your WBL to patch your AC for health reasons and you are gonna last long.

[Necromancy]

For pure survivability, my dwarf tetori monk wins out of all my chars I've played at the table

High AC, saves, perception, movement, and CMD coupled with evasion, immunities, and spell save bonus. When all else fails, you can always run away faster than the rest of the party.

[Snowbluff]

PF paladin is good. But even without spells, I think Synthesist Summoner has to be mentioned somewhere. Bunch of bonus hp, good armor, good movement options, and a pile of resistances and immunities easily customizable to what you plan on fighting.


Synthesist Summoner is a contestant. You can grab energy immunities as evolutions, you can get DR/magic from evolutions or DR/evil from the Aasimar favored class bonus and you have a pool of potentially regenerating temporary HP from your transformation.

I guess this counts. Dunno how the OP feels about being T2, though. XD

[Gnaeus]

I guess this counts. Dunno how the OP feels about being T2, though. XD

What tier would a spell-less synthesist be? I would think 3-4.

[SorenKnight]

I guess this counts. Dunno how the OP feels about being T2, though. XD

He said no spells, he never said anything about what tier. With a Synthesist you don't have to worry about a buff routine if you don't want to, which seems to be more what the OP was worried about. You'd only risk being caught outside monster form if you're ambushed while sleeping, which is fairly rare in my experience.

Oh yeah, I forgot, but a Synthesist can grab decent Spell Resistance to go alongside the Energy Immunity, DR, and regenerating buffer of temporary HP. I honestly don't think that any other class can challenge them for durability based solely on class features.

Although, now that I think about it a Telekineticist with Expanded Element (Earth) and the Expanded Defense talent would also do pretty well, but wouldn't gain some of the durability until 7th level and wouldn't do well against nonphysical attacks.

[Alex12]

Oh yeah, I forgot, but a Synthesist can grab decent Spell Resistance to go alongside the Energy Immunity, DR, and regenerating buffer of temporary HP. I honestly don't think that any other class can challenge them for durability based solely on class features.

Dreamscarred Press, psionics. Aegis. Aegis Aegis Aegis Aegis Aegis. I cannot stress this enough. An Aegis's main class features can be summarized as "be indestructible at them until they give up" and is absolutely a superior defensive option to the spell-less Synthesist.

[SorenKnight]

Dreamscarred Press, psionics. Aegis. Aegis Aegis Aegis Aegis Aegis. I cannot stress this enough. An Aegis's main class features can be summarized as "be indestructible at them until they give up" and is absolutely a superior defensive option to the spell-less Synthesist.

Looking over both the Eidolon and the Astral Suit, I'm not actually sure that either is better than the other. The Astral Suit can get Evasion and Stalwart, but the Eidolon's Spell Resistance scales automatically and doesn't apply to spells cast by the Summoner, its Energy Immunity costs half as many points and can be taken multiple times to apply to multiple energy types, it can get fast healing by class features and it can stack its Eidolon hit points on top of its own, so for every d10 increase in Aegis hp the Synthesist is gaining a d10 and a d8.

So, ultimately which is better depends on the opponent. The Aegis has Stalwart, Evasion, better base saves, good DR without spending any points or favored class bonuses on it and can form his Suit faster in the case of an night ambush, but provided that the GM doesn't constantly ambush you at night and provides a diverse array of opponents I don't think either will be better than the other in the long run.

[Mehangel]

Looking over both the Eidolon and the Astral Suit, I'm not actually sure that either is better than the other. The Astral Suit can get Evasion and Stalwart, but the Eidolon's Spell Resistance scales automatically and doesn't apply to spells cast by the Summoner, its Energy Immunity costs half as many points and can be taken multiple times to apply to multiple energy types, it can get fast healing by class features and it can stack its Eidolon hit points on top of its own, so for every d10 increase in Aegis hp the Synthesist is gaining a d10 and a d8.

The main reason why an Aegis outclasses a Summoner (in this particular situation), is that when a summoner chooses to spend evolution points on its Eidolon, it is stuck with those choices until either A) they level up or B) they cast a specific spell, but since it was already stated that all characters in this scenario must be able to survive without spells I think it would be safe to assume that such a summoner would be stuck with one particular build of Eidolon. When comparing this to the Aegis, the aegis can build their astral suit in whatever form they want (they are not stuck with a particular suit or customization for an entire level), which improves to allow it change mid combat.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Assuming no T1-2, aand no third party, PF paladin's Lay on Hands is pretty good. The Tiefling Alternate Favored Class bonus is +1 HP per use of Lay on Hands per level, giving an extra +20 HP per at level 20. After that, there is the Fey Foundling Feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling) to add 2 HP per die rolled to LoH, or 40 over 20 levels.

If I'm not mistaken, you can't actually take that FCB until you have lay on hands at 2nd level, so only +19 from that at 20th level. Unless GM houserules it so you can take it or can retrain a FCB, which under the current system you cannot.

[Snowbluff]

If I'm not mistaken, you can't actually take that FCB until you have lay on hands at 2nd level, so only +19 from that at 20th level. Unless GM houserules it so you can take it or can retrain a FCB, which under the current system you cannot.

Well, I'll tell you right now I don't have anything to back up your argument, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Racial-Favored-Class-Benefits-Advanced-Player-s-Guide-) and nothing to say except to say that if it is true, it's a completely ridiculous rule.

Think of it like an item. Sure, I have +1 to healing myself with LoH, but it just doesn't do anything until I can LoH.

[Oroul]

Well, if survivability is the ability to terminate foes swiftly enough for them to deal significant damage, the ability to survive a round of surprise, the ability to survive other characters' spells AND the ability to circumvent dangerous hazards through skills

Invulnerable Rager w/ Supertitious:
Earlier and better DR, a lot of HP, improved movement speed, an ability that boost his damage potential and whatever he can soak (remember, there's also a good deal of DR involved), it's hard to do better than a human or half-orc barbarian with the favored class bonus on supertitious.

Paladin:
Charisma on all saves, the ability to heal oneself rather early, Immunity to some really bad effects (fear / disease), and to eliminate swiftly target designed as top priority, the only real weakness a paladin has his reliance on armor that slows him down. This means that carrying a ranged weapon and/or a shield and one-hander, in addition to his main 2-handed weapon, is a must as anyone kiting him must run out of ammunition.

Note: Combined w/ Sorcerer (draconic lineage) 1 and Dragon Disciple, you get increases in STR, CON and INT, a breathweapon, the ability to fly, natural armor bonus to AC that STACKS with an amulet of natural armor and d12 hp at the cost of a few paladin abilities and BaB. Even without spell, it's worth the trade!

Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 6 / Fighter for the rest (go vivisectionist x2 / fighter / vivisectionist x4 / fighter the rest):
This one is a bit more complex to pull off, and I definitely recommend using the trait that gives access to stealth as a class skill, if possible. Still you get: A good reason to not dump Intelligence (which means a 13 or 14 is comfortable enough to aim for), which give access to the Weapon Expertise chain of feats, Sneak Attack for 3d6 and an extra arm. The extra arm can hold a magical shield without the need for a costly enchantment and for a duration greater than 5 rounds.

Furthermore, you can still wield a 2 handed weapon, like a greatsword, pump your Strength and AC with a mutagen and deal sneak attack damage on top of that. I'd add on top of that the use of extracts, but since spells are banned, it still gives you one hell of a versatile and powerful character.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, I'll tell you right now I don't have anything to back up your argument, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Racial-Favored-Class-Benefits-Advanced-Player-s-Guide-) and nothing to say except to say that if it is true, it's a completely ridiculous rule.

Think of it like an item. Sure, I have +1 to healing myself with LoH, but it just doesn't do anything until I can LoH.

It's not an argument, it's a rule. Occult Adventures, p. 84: "If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability."

I had literally the exact same reaction to this, for the exact same FCB.

[Slithery D]

It's not an argument, it's a rule. Occult Adventures, p. 84: "If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability."

I had literally the exact same reaction to this, for the exact same FCB.

It's really atrocious with the 1/6 of a new class ability FCBs.

[SorenKnight]

The main reason why an Aegis outclasses a Summoner (in this particular situation), is that when a summoner chooses to spend evolution points on its Eidolon, it is stuck with those choices until either A) they level up or B) they cast a specific spell, but since it was already stated that all characters in this scenario must be able to survive without spells I think it would be safe to assume that such a summoner would be stuck with one particular build of Eidolon. When comparing this to the Aegis, the aegis can build their astral suit in whatever form they want (they are not stuck with a particular suit or customization for an entire level), which improves to allow it change mid combat.

That may be true, but we're talking about durability, not versatility. Even with that the Synthesist has access to valuable defensive abilities like Fast Healing and Blindsense that the Aegis simply can't get from class features and a significant portion of its durability comes from a pile of extra hit points that the Aegis has no answer to, and Fast Healing can ensure that it is at full health for every encounter.

Overall neither really outclasses because they both have powerful defensive abilities that the other doesn't. Synthesist has Fast Healing, almost twice as much HP, and the ability to detect invisible or hiding enemies. Aegis has greater adaptability, the ability to suit up in a single round without resorting to spells, and access to Evasion/Stalwart.

[Snowbluff]

Also, Synthesist can get options on the fly by casting Evolution Surge.


It's not an argument, it's a rule. Occult Adventures, p. 84: "If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can't be taken before the character has that class feature or ability."

I had literally the exact same reaction to this, for the exact same FCB.


It's really atrocious with the 1/6 of a new class ability FCBs.

Holy ****ing **** is that ****ing horrible.

I agree Slithery D (snrk), that is ****ing terrible, and it was my first though. Paladins get off easy, as opposed to classes like Magus.

God ****ing dammit Paizo. I liked racial FCB. You ****ed it up. Everything good you make, you destroy. It doesn't even make sense. In addition to the above problem, it also means that you can't have an even 20 points invested for a lot of classes, which means bunch of little skill points you have to keep track of to keep the numbers even. It's obviously wasn't intended by the designers in the concepts inception, because it's conspicuously omitted from the original rules. Did the only good dev who came up with that leave?

Ugh.

[SorenKnight]

Also, Synthesist can get options on the fly by casting Evolution Surge.

Yes, and he could counteract his need to spend 1 minute summoning his Eidolon with the spell Summon Eidolon (if he was attacked while sleeping for example), but the OP asked for a spell-less analysis and I think the Synthesist holds up even without spells.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, the 1/6 one works for magus. Take normal FCB for 2 levels, then start with the 1/6 arcana at 3rd, and you'll have an even 3 extra arcana at level 20. You might appreciate those extra two hit points or skill points at levels 1 and 2 rather than 19 and 20 anyway.

[Red Fel]

Well, the 1/6 one works for magus. Take normal FCB for 2 levels, then start with the 1/6 arcana at 3rd, and you'll have an even 3 extra arcana at level 20. You might appreciate those extra two hit points or skill points at levels 1 and 2 rather than 19 and 20 anyway.

Yeah. This actually works reasonably well for the 1/6 ones, given that 20 doesn't divide evenly by 6, but 18 does. Take, for example, the Aasimar Paladin FCB that gives +1/6 to saves from Paladin auras. Paladins get Aura of Courage at level 3, which means that if an Aasimar took this FCB at 3-20, that would be an even +3 to saves, no fractions. (But see the Ifrit Bard FCB, which comes online at level 1, and if taken at each level would result in an awkward +3 2/3.)

I mean... Unless it's a class feature you get particularly late, I don't see a major impact resulting from having to take a non-specific FCB until it comes online.

[Gnaeus]

That may be true, but we're talking about durability, not versatility. Even with that the Synthesist has access to valuable defensive abilities like Fast Healing and Blindsense that the Aegis simply can't get from class features and a significant portion of its durability comes from a pile of extra hit points that the Aegis has no answer to, and Fast Healing can ensure that it is at full health for every encounter.

Overall neither really outclasses because they both have powerful defensive abilities that the other doesn't. Synthesist has Fast Healing, almost twice as much HP, and the ability to detect invisible or hiding enemies. Aegis has greater adaptability, the ability to suit up in a single round without resorting to spells, and access to Evasion/Stalwart.

I would add that Summoner also has access to some handy immunity suites, like Fiendish/Celestial/Undead appearance, which I can't see how Aegis mimics and which could be important depending on campaign (Undead appearance in ravenloft, or any of the 3 in a snake themed campaign for example).

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'll put in another vote for Paladin, at least in Pathfinder. Having recently finished running Rise of the Runelords from beginning to end with a paladin PC, I can say with confidence that they scoff at just about any danger.

I can count the number of times the paladin felt legitimately endangered on one hand. It got to the point where the only thing he had to worry about was rolling natural 1's on his saving throws.

[Alex12]

Looking over both the Eidolon and the Astral Suit, I'm not actually sure that either is better than the other. The Astral Suit can get Evasion and Stalwart, but the Eidolon's Spell Resistance scales automatically and doesn't apply to spells cast by the Summoner, its Energy Immunity costs half as many points and can be taken multiple times to apply to multiple energy types, it can get fast healing by class features and it can stack its Eidolon hit points on top of its own, so for every d10 increase in Aegis hp the Synthesist is gaining a d10 and a d8.

So, ultimately which is better depends on the opponent. The Aegis has Stalwart, Evasion, better base saves, good DR without spending any points or favored class bonuses on it and can form his Suit faster in the case of an night ambush, but provided that the GM doesn't constantly ambush you at night and provides a diverse array of opponents I don't think either will be better than the other in the long run.

First off, for a mere 1 point (or using the Astral Armor form) you can sleep in your suit without penalty. Also, please note that as of Path of War Expanded, Aegis can get access to maneuvers and stances for a mere 2 points, and can increase it with further point expenditure. And you can change those maneuvers like you can any other customization. There's 2 different stances (one from Elemental Flux and the other from Silver Crane) that grant fast healing, and if you go for the Elemental Flux one, you still have room left over even on the basic customization in terms of prereqs to pick up 2 other maneuvers (if you go Riven Hourglass, you can grab Temporal Body Adjustment, which is basically Iron Heart Surge but achieved by rewinding time)

EDIT: that came out more antagonistic-sounding than I intended. I just really really like Aegis and it needs more respect.

[SorenKnight]

EDIT: that came out more antagonistic-sounding than I intended. I just really really like Aegis and it needs more respect.

Before this conversation I had never looked at the Aegis and you've done nothing but increase my respect for the class. In terms of defense I don't think either it or the Synthesist is outright better than the other, they both have relative strengths and weaknesses, and which is better would depend on what exact encounters you're facing.

[Necromancy]

Class cannot use spells, powers, gear, or feats.

Pretty sure monk still wins it

Seems like OP just pulled a ask-n-dash tho

[SorenKnight]

Class cannot use spells, powers, gear, or feats.

Pretty sure monk still wins it

Seems like OP just pulled a ask-n-dash tho

Monk? Monk has all good saves, Evasion, immunity to poison/disease, save bonuses vs. enchantment, SR and the movement speed to run the hell away when it is outclassed, but Synthesist can do all of that except the all good saves, but it has over twice the hit points, DR and Energy Immunity.

The ask-n-dash seems to be true, but chances are he got his question answered half a dozen posts ago. He's not really obligated to pay attention past that point.

[Necromancy]

Pretty sure synthesist can't have his eidolon under the OPs criteria

[Snowbluff]

Pretty sure synthesist can't have his eidolon under the OPs criteria

It's a (Su) Ability, not a spell (like a caster), a power (which is a psionic spell), a feat, or whatever the last one is.

[SorenKnight]

Pretty sure synthesist can't have his eidolon under the OPs criteria

Really? Because this is what the OP said. (Bolded for emphasis)


What classes would you all say have the most effective tool set for surviving most adversities that adventurers would face? The caveat being that this is discounting the use of spells or powers (maneuvers are fair game), gear or feats; it has to come completely from their class features.

No spells, powers, gear or feats, only class features. Is the Fused Eidolon a spell, psionic power, piece of equipment or feat? You could enhance or alter it with any of those things, but it itself is a class feature, and I've been debating its strengths without, say, any of the spells that buff it, or taking the extra evolution feat.


It's a (Su) Ability, not a spell (like a caster), a power (which is a psionic spell), a feat, or whatever the last one is.

More specifically its a (Su) ability that comes from class features, aka exactly the category that the OP specifically asked for.

Unfortunately, the monk has once again been outclassed.

[Necromancy]

It's a ritual actually, but trying to rules lawyer OPs question? Really? He's not even allowing bonuses from feats so I seriously doubt summoner has any wiggle room.

Outclass my monk? Let's see your puny synthesist hogtie a dragon on the first round of combat.

[Gnaeus]

It's a ritual actually, but trying to rules lawyer OPs question? Really? He's not even allowing bonuses from feats so I seriously doubt summoner has any wiggle room.

Outclass my monk? Let's see your puny synthesist hogtie a dragon on the first round of combat.

Let's see, eidolon can take grab, be large, and strength focused. Monk without feats? You probably can't hogtie even the summoner without the eidolon, assuming he has a weapon that can make AOOs.

[Sahleb]

Did the only good dev who came up with that leave?

Ugh.

As someone whose friends like to play pathfinder, I've followed their releases on d20pfsrd over the years, and can attest that this is a common and cyclic pattern with them.

I suspect that they have one team to write the books, and then another team that does balance who doesn't read the books the first team writes until they're already published.

It's the only explantion I can come up with for all the 'look at this nice thing in the new book! LOL, just kidding, have a nerf!' going on.

[Xalos]

I would say Kineticist or Paladin as they are nearly invincible for the most party.... except the fact that my DM killed both me (the Paladin) and our Kineticist off in a single night....

[SorenKnight]

It's a ritual actually, but trying to rules lawyer OPs question? Really? He's not even allowing bonuses from feats so I seriously doubt summoner has any wiggle room.

Outclass my monk? Let's see your puny synthesist hogtie a dragon on the first round of combat.

Rules lawyering? How is discussing the type of ability that the OP explicitly asked for rules lawyering? Sure it involves a ritual to use. That doesn't matter as it being a ritual doesn't make it a spell, nor make it stop being a class feature any more than a monk class features being based on martial arts makes them not class features.

And while I don't doubt your monk's ability to hogtie dragons, this thread is about defensive abilities. If you want to debate the offensive merits of the monk vs. those of a synthesist you can start a thread for that. I'll happily argue it out there, but it has no place here.