Megatokyo.

[Casualgamer]

One of the most popular strips around, noted for its detailed pencil work. What do you guys think about it?

Here's my opinion: Megatokyo has gone downhill. Badly. Actually, it kinda fell off a cliff. The thing with the biggest webcomic kill count is plot, and ever since Rodney Caston was blackmailed into leaving Megatokyo, it's become a crappy romantic "comedy" with way too much "plot". It's what killed PvP, and almost killed Ctrl-Alt-Del.

In the era of Caston, Largo played the crazy dude, and Piro the straight man.

Nowadays Piro is, in fact emo. It's like frickin' Megatokyo Chemical Romance. Even Largo is becoming more emotional. It's sad, really.

What do you think?

[chibibar]

totally agree.. Largo has really gone downhill... he WAS a hardcore gamer all the way....

He had changed so much I barely recognize him :(

[Athanatos]

almost killed Ctrl-Alt-Del.

Almost? You've got to be kidding, sir. Ctrl-Alt-Del is as dead as Dillinger.

[Wukei]

I agree, and say so constantly. "Largo" as much made that comic as "Piro" and now it's a shoujo manga. Don't get me wrong, I like shoujo. Heck, I write it. But it's not what it used to be.

[Brickwall]

I got into MT after it already became the kind of comic it is today. I like it, because it's a break from all the other stuff I read. Sure, it's absurd. Sure, Largo's character has totally been ruined. But I like the rest.

And anyone who tells me there aren't enough one-shot gags in PVP, I will send the archive date of EVERY SINGLE ONE-SHOT in a comprehensive list to them.

Hey, that sounds like a fun summer project, actually.

[Jibar]

I was introduced when it had become the manga, and personally, I like it.
I read a lot of gaming webcomics, and there are a lot of them out there, so it's kinda nice to have something different.
I will agree that it is very, very different from what it started off as, and I lked the beginning, but I think I prefer what it's become to what it was.

But out of interest, I've never heard much about how Caston left, what actually happened?

[Renloth]

Honestly, I don't understand this whole thing with the: "Blarg, they've ruined the comic, too much plot, not enough funny" sort of thing. I can't stand it when a comic is all about one shots and gags, since its utterly boring. Megatokyo has changed for the better in my opinion, becoming more plot-oriented, indepth, and thoughtful.

[Casualgamer]

Honestly, I don't understand this whole thing with the: "Blarg, they've ruined the comic, too much plot, not enough funny" sort of thing. I can't stand it when a comic is all about one shots and gags, since its utterly boring. Megatokyo has changed for the better in my opinion, becoming more plot-oriented, indepth, and thoughtful.

Yeah, that'd be great, if MT was release volume by volume, but in the case of the webcomic, all it serves to do is slow things down to a craaaawwwwwwllllll....

In fact, I see it happening now in the Order of the Stick, to a degree, though admittedly, Burlew has done a great job of juggling both. But he's starting to slip, and I'm not laughing as much.

One of the most popular webcomics around, Penny Arcade is still booming, and its been around since it was '98.



Almost? You've got to be kidding, sir. Ctrl-Alt-Del is as dead as Dillinger.

No, I'm not kidding. You didn't like the Earthlink gag? That was funny. And recent. Its still recovering from the whole "marriage" plot arc.

To Jibar:

Gallagher's version: While things were good at first, over time we found that we were not working well together creatively. There is no fault in this, it happens. I've never blamed Rodney for this creative 'falling out' nor do I blame myself. Not all creative relationships click, ours didn't in the long run.

Cute. NOT.

Caston's version: After this he approached me and said either I would sell him my ownership of MegaTokyo or he would simply stop doing it entirely, and we'd divide up the company's assets and end it all. This was right before the MT was to go into print form, and I really wanted to see it make it into print, rather then die on the vine.

Ah, I love the smell of the cold hard truth in the morning...

[Gunslinger47]

I read Megatokyo, and I even buy its books, but I don't believe that it is particularly good on the whole. The two outstanding qualities about Megatokyo are its art and reliability. As much as we make fun of Gallagher for his Dead Piro Days, he is one of the hardest working web comic creators on the Internet.

I wish more people were like him. Like if Icymasamune (http://icymasamune.deviantart.com/) from PoisonWind (http://poisonwindink.com/) updated a full page every MWF? I think the world would buckle under the greatness of his webcomic.

Back on the topic of Gallagher, it appears that he does want to start from scratch with a newer, better comic. Something like Warmth (http://warmth.fredart.com). However, I get the sense that he is unwilling to take the chance because abandoning the Megatokyo project means risking his own livelihood.

As for the split with Caston, it certainly changed Megatokyo, but I can't say if it has gotten any better or worse because of it.

[Truthseeker]

What do I think? I think Megatokyo never interested me at any point. In fact, I find its general existence vaguely... irritating. I don't understand what anyone sees or ever saw in it.

The guys behind Penny Arcade are good, solid, decent people, great leaders in the struggle with people like Jack Thompson, but I think their humor is popular in the same embarassing lowest-common-denominator way as professional wrestling is popular. I don't follow it. That said, my strong interest in Ctrl-Alt-Del has scarecely flickered (which, to those unfamiliar with the comics in question, is strange because CAD and PA are almost but not quite the same thing, and in all fairness, PA did it first).

I don't think Scott Kurtz is much of a gamer, but I don't seem to have any trouble checking the strip fairly often anyway. With that one the unique facility Mr. Kurtz has for inadvertently pissing people off is almost as entertaining as the strip itself, so long as I stay well clear of the firing line. ;)

The point of all of this, however, is that plot never killed a comic strip in my world, whereas I have seen one or two just get dull and stupid trying to be a little too goofy from strip to strip (pointless stupidity, thy name is Van Von Hunter).

My first webcomic was Sluggy Freelance. I don't even remember why I stopped reading it.

[Casualgamer]

What do I think? I think Megatokyo never interested me at any point. In fact, I find its general existence vaguely... irritating. I don't understand what anyone sees or ever saw in it.

The guys behind Penny Arcade are good, solid, decent people, great leaders in the struggle with people like Jack Thompson, but I think their humor is popular in the same embarassing lowest-common-denominator way as professional wrestling is popular. I don't follow it. That said, my strong interest in Ctrl-Alt-Del has scarecely flickered (which, to those unfamiliar with the comics in question, is strange because CAD and PA are almost but not quite the same thing, and in all fairness, PA did it first).

I don't think Scott Kurtz is much of a gamer, but I don't seem to have any trouble checking the strip fairly often anyway. With that one the unique facility Mr. Kurtz has for inadvertently pissing people off is almost as entertaining as the strip itself, so long as I stay well clear of the firing line. ;)

The point of all of this, however, is that plot never killed a comic strip in my world, whereas I have seen one or two just get dull and stupid trying to be a little too goofy from strip to strip (pointless stupidity, thy name is Van Von Hunter).

My first webcomic was Sluggy Freelance. I don't even remember why I stopped reading it.


What Im gettin here is, that you simply have never read a webcomic that HAD a plot, and thus simply don't know.

Ever read Exploitation Now? No Need for Bushido? Questionable Content? Slain, in the line of battle against PLOT.

On Ctrl Alt Del: You actually liked the marriage arc? I didn't think that was funny/coo/interesting/vaguely amusing at all!

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot RPG World.

[Truthseeker]

What Im gettin here is, that you simply have never read a webcomic that HAD a plot, and thus simply don't know.

Ever read Exploitation Now? No Need for Bushido? Questionable Content? Slain, in the line of battle against PLOT.

On Ctrl Alt Del: You actually liked the marriage arc? I didn't think that was funny/coo/interesting/vaguely amusing at all!

I read QC daily (well, nightly, actually, since that's when it updates). I'm not a fanatic about it and could do without it if I had to, but it amuses me. Though I zone out when they get to talking about music.

CAD.... The marriage arc wasn't exactly my favorite, but it still beats any strip that even hints at the presence of Chef Brian, in my book. Rogue XBot was funny. And just to show that I'm not totally immune to the allure of the one-shot, the ones with Player One and Player Two are a little hit'n'miss, but mostly hit.

Personally I think it's kind of odd that you can speak with me on the forums of OOTS, of all places, and claim that I've never read a comic involving a plot. Plot's a pretty integral part of what makes OOTS... OOTS, as far as I'm concerned. Anyone can go, "Ha ha, aren't D&D rules silly?" and I'm sure lots of others are doing just exactly that. But only OOTS keeps me coming back. Only OOTS got me interested in playing the game to begin with. :)

Perhaps the fact that two people so differently oriented on this whole discussion are OOTS fans speaks well of Mr. Burlew's previously-mentioned juggling act.

[Casualgamer]

Personally I think it's kind of odd that you can speak with me on the forums of OOTS, of all places, and claim that I've never read a comic involving a plot. Plot's a pretty integral part of what makes OOTS... OOTS, as far as I'm concerned. Anyone can go, "Ha ha, aren't D&D rules silly?" and I'm sure lots of others are doing just exactly that. But only OOTS keeps me coming back. Only OOTS got me interested in playing the game to begin with. :)

Ah, I revise my comment. You have never read a comic CENTERED around plot.

[Alhambra IV]

I should like to point out that plot does not necessarily make for a bad comic. Look at Alpha-Shade (http://www.alpha-shade.com/). Plot ahoy! (Offhand, anyone else 'sides me read A-S?)

Anyhow, Lord Jibar, if you want the actual info on the breakup from the horses' mouths (as it were), this would be Gallagher's 'version' (http://www.megatokyo.com/index.php?strip_id=660) [Piro's rant on bottom], and here's Caston's 'version' (http://www.rcaston.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid= 71&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=f799ccc 12006db0d0885818684e4b8e7) Happy reading!

[Yossarian]

It's what killed PvP, and almost killed Ctrl-Alt-Del.

If PvP is "dead", the only thing I can say is, "Zombie PvP FTW!" I will happily put up with the (very ocassional) several-day-long lull in the name of plot in return for awesomeness like the City of Heroes lawsuit arc or the witch's gaming store. Brief arcs like these beat the pants off of the first half-dozen years of PvP combined, and then take the removed pants and disintegrate them for good measure.

Ctrl-Alt-Del, on the other hand, was a miscarried before it was born. There was nothing there to kill. "Hey, let's take the stereotypical gaming strip, make the characters even more one-dimensional, and try to pass it off as a deeper, more story-oriented strip!"

I think Alpha-shade is a good reference, here. It's certainly a good enough comic but not necessarily all that hot as a webcomic, at least not in traditional terms. Of course, that's more a result of it being painstakingly produced large-scale art that can't be pumped out on a daily/semi-daily schedule than it is necessarily a result of its being plot-driven, but the latter doesn't help.

[Midnight Son]

I like MegaTokyo. I liked it before. I like it now. I like one shot jokes. I like plot driven storylines. I don't like SGD. If they're not gonna have a regular comic that day, they should just skip it.

[Casualgamer]

If PvP is "dead", the only thing I can say is, "Zombie PvP FTW!" I will happily put up with the (very ocassional) several-day-long lull in the name of plot in return for awesomeness like the City of Heroes lawsuit arc or the witch's gaming store. Brief arcs like these beat the pants off of the first half-dozen years of PvP combined, and then take the removed pants and disintegrate them for good measure.

Ctrl-Alt-Del, on the other hand, was a miscarried before it was born. There was nothing there to kill. "Hey, let's take the stereotypical gaming strip, make the characters even more one-dimensional, and try to pass it off as a deeper, more story-oriented strip!"

I think Alpha-shade is a good reference, here. It's certainly a good enough comic but not necessarily all that hot as a webcomic, at least not in traditional terms. Of course, that's more a result of it being painstakingly produced large-scale art that can't be pumped out on a daily/semi-daily schedule than it is necessarily a result of its being plot-driven, but the latter doesn't help.

I disagree, PvP pretty much died to me. The whole thing with the baby was too much, and something snapped.

CAD is funny. I don't care about character depth, so I don't see why you're bringing that up. Actually, I think that was the point of my post. I don't think CAD every tried to become more story-based, the wedding thing was pretty much scourged from memory with Buckley literally saying he didn't want plot in his webcomic.

As for alpha shade, I actually think its only a mediocre webcomic. It's story based structure lends for extrememely slow story telling, and quite honestly, if you want to read something like that, go to Barnes and Noble and pick up some manga, most is better. The art is, however, excellent, and I read a couple of pages to marvel at wondrously constructed works of pen and pixel.

[Brickwall]

So, because a comic actually involves character development, you dislike it? Well, you must be starting to get dissapointed with OoTS then.

[Yossarian]

The problem is that CAD tries to pretend its characters are real people, and it utterly fails. Contrast with Penny Arcade. There's no suggestion that Gabe and Tycho are anything more than cartoon characters; they're one step away from throwing anvils and bombs at each other to the tune of dramatic public-domain symphony music. Their lives are arbitrarily defined based on the comedic needs of each strip.

This is not the case at CAD (notwithstanding the ocassional one-shot out of "continuity"). If there was any reason to connect with the characters, the fact that they have persistent lives within the strip might have some value, but it's hard to identify with them unless you yourself happen to be made out of cardboard. You end up with a modestly entertaining gaming-and-random-stuff strip shackled to an absolutely awful sitcom about gamers.

[High-Chancellor]

I like plot. I'm generally not a fan of comics that contain no plot, but I can also like comics that contain mostly plot if they're well done enough. For instance, The Rules of Make Beleive (before it went on hiatus), File 49 and The Front, Inverloch, and some other stuff that don't update often enough that I exactly remember the name of, but I do have bookmarked.

Plot is good, plot is your friend. It just has to be a good plot, or else it wont hold itself up well. And the delivery also has to be good, that goes beyond art quality.

As for how this affects Megatokyo? Honestly I think Fred could have done it a bit better. He's distanced himself from his roots too much, it's too different contentwise now than it was before. Plot on one hand, gags on another, it doesn't necessarily matter. What matters is consistancy, call it a loyalty to the fans, and Megatokyo doesn't have that. Completely different now from what it was, he never should have got rid of Caston.

I still do read Megatokyo, sort of, I just only check back like... every month or so. Maybe more or less.

As for PA, CAD, PvP... I've never particularly cared for them. PA and CAD just aren't my style, and Kurtz is a pretentious arrogant jerk.

[Krytha]

Meh. I find that people who can ONLY abide gaming comics will find themselves sorely disappointed. I used to read Little-Gamers and stopped. Maybe its cuz I really didnt care.

PvP makes fun of office work as much as (and probably more than) gaming itself. Its not always Hi-Lar-Ious, but its entertaining and FREQUENT. Im pretty sure Kurtz beats every other webcomic out there simply because he updates every day of the week. People say Fred is hardworking, but Kurtz takes the cake here.

Webcomics that are restricted to one-line gags tend to run out of steam in the end. Even PA has little story arcs now and then and sometimes you dont understand the joke unless you're absolutely up to date on gaming news and then you'll likely have to read a huge post and then you can go "Ohhh... ha ha."

I guess my point is that plot never killed anything really. Plot makes things more engaging, attempts to make people care about the characters involved. If you hate things because they have plot and not an endless series of isolated gags, then OotS seems to be a poor choice of favourite webcomic. While it wouldnt be as funny without the constant poking at AD+D rules, it could stand on its own as a story... which I think is great.

[Casualgamer]

So, because a comic actually involves character development, you dislike it? Well, you must be starting to get dissapointed with OoTS then.

In fact, I am. (Ooooh, blashphemy). Actually, I already said that.


This is not the case at CAD (notwithstanding the ocassional one-shot out of "continuity"). If there was any reason to connect with the characters, the fact that they have persistent lives within the strip might have some value, but it's hard to identify with them unless you yourself happen to be made out of cardboard. You end up with a modestly entertaining gaming-and-random-stuff strip shackled to an absolutely awful sitcom about gamers.

Right. "Modestly entertaining". No reason to hate it if you find it entertaining. I never said it was the best webcomic in the world.


I like plot. I'm generally not a fan of comics that contain no plot, but I can also like comics that contain mostly plot if they're well done enough. For instance, The Rules of Make Beleive (before it went on hiatus), File 49 and The Front, Inverloch, and some other stuff that don't update often enough that I exactly remember the name of, but I do have bookmarked.

Plot is good, plot is your friend. It just has to be a good plot, or else it wont hold itself up well. And the delivery also has to be good, that goes beyond art quality.

I do not hate plot in general. I hate plot (as a centerpiece) in WEBCOMICS. I play D&D, that's proof enough that I care about plot, but I am a voracious reader (I consumed the current Harry Potter line up of books AND a Song of Ice and Fire in the span of 20 hours) and if there is going to be plot, I'm not going to read it a page every other day (most of the time less). Furthermore, plot is not the reason I read webcomics. As I've stated before, if you want plot, find it in your bookstore. The reason I read webcomics, is to find gags on subject matter that is rarely found on the shelves of Borders. Secondly, internet censorship is nearly nonexistant, so webcomics are often undiluted in their humor.


As for how this affects Megatokyo? Honestly I think Fred could have done it a bit better. He's distanced himself from his roots too much, it's too different contentwise now than it was before. Plot on one hand, gags on another, it doesn't necessarily matter. What matters is consistancy, call it a loyalty to the fans, and Megatokyo doesn't have that. Completely different now from what it was, he never should have got rid of Caston.

I DO agree with that.


PvP makes fun of office work as much as (and probably more than) gaming itself. Its not always Hi-Lar-Ious, but its entertaining and FREQUENT. Im pretty sure Kurtz beats every other webcomic out there simply because he updates every day of the week. People say Fred is hardworking, but Kurtz takes the cake here.

How does this counter anything I said?


Webcomics that are restricted to one-line gags tend to run out of steam in the end. Even PA has little story arcs now and then and sometimes you dont understand the joke unless you're absolutely up to date on gaming news and then you'll likely have to read a huge post and then you can go "Ohhh... ha ha."

I guess my point is that plot never killed anything really. Plot makes things more engaging, attempts to make people care about the characters involved. If you hate things because they have plot and not an endless series of isolated gags, then OotS seems to be a poor choice of favourite webcomic. While it wouldnt be as funny without the constant poking at AD+D rules, it could stand on its own as a story... which I think is great.

AGAIN, I DO... NOT... MIND... PLOT. It simply must take a backseat to humor. PA may have "story" arcs, but you never follow them to find out what happens next, only to get the joke better.

You state that plot never killed anything, and yet you fail to produce evidence. I have provide ample amounts for my own argument. Furthermore, I never said that OoTS was my favorite webcomic. Actually, I don't think I have one.

The point: Plot is engaging and interesting. Plot also must flow, or become stagnant. Only god could make a webcomic that could flow fast enough to avoid this.

[Yossarian]

Right. "Modestly entertaining". No reason to hate it if you find it entertaining. I never said it was the best webcomic in the world.


You missed the part about "shackled to an absolutely awful sitcom." On the balance, I do not find it entertaining; it sacrifices too much in the interest of maintaining the pretense that these are persistent characters with ongoing lives--and doing it poorly. If it axed all that (or at least got halfway decent character writing), it could be a decent comic.



AGAIN, I DO... NOT... MIND... PLOT. It simply must take a backseat to humor. PA may have "story" arcs, but you never follow them to find out what happens next, only to get the joke better.


Of course no one really follows PA to find out what happens in the "story" next, but that doesn't mean no one ever follows any webcomic just for the sake of finding out what happens next. Granted, most comics that try to fall back on just plot all the time do indeed end up being flaming train wrecks; I'm not going to argue that. It is the nature of things that pretty much any author who pursues plot is going to eventually overreach themselves--at best they end up with a body of work which is fine if read straight through but cannot much be enjoyed in semi-daily episodic installments, while at worst... well, flaming train wreck--but while it works plot is so infinitely valuable as to make the effort worthwhile in spite of the inevitable conclusion. When done right, plot delivered in daily chunks builds a sense of dramatic anticipation other media can only dream of matching. It can't be maintained for long, but so long as it lasts it beats the pants off of straight gag-a-day work. (Particularly when it's still delivering a gag a day alongside the plot.)

[BobGhengisKhan]

Two problems with Megatokyo:

One: Fred is getting far more attention than he deserves for doing something that's been done dozens, if not hundreds of times over by prevous artists. Now it's just an American doing it.

Two: Fred actually stated a few years back that there would be no happy endings for Piro and Largo. This is just part of a general trend I despise, because I feel that pretty soon we'll be able to truthfully label a happy ending as a "shocking twist that you'll never expect."

[AmoDman]

It's entertaining how this thread is still vaguely on the topic of Megatokyo...but since I couldn't care less about Megatokyo, on with the spam!

CAD - I think it's funny. Not as funny as PA, mind you, but funny. And, guess what? I actually liked the plot. Not as a plot in and of itself, but I thought it was interesting for the characters (who, yes, are very one dimensional...but that's the frigging point), and wa actually quite funny. That is, the plot itself added to the humour, rather than detracted from it. Don't like it? Don't read it. I think that cook **** sucks ass, and -most- of the player 1/2/etc. crap is...well, crap.

PVP - It always sucked.

[Sophistemon]

Wait, wait. Why do people hate Scott Kurtz?

[Athanatos]

CAD is funny. I don't care about character depth, so I don't see why you're bringing that up. Actually, I think that was the point of my post. I don't think CAD every tried to become more story-based, the wedding thing was pretty much scourged from memory with Buckley literally saying he didn't want plot in his webcomic.

No plot, huh? In ONLY 2006, we have Ethan's Quest for E3, Ethan's Quest for Oblivion, Marriage, Wintereenmas In Danger II. Four relatively long (except for Marriag, thanfully) story arcs, all of which relied on a single joke that wasn't funny the first time. At this point CAD has become a sitcom, where the bland and predictable story arcs are the programming and the tired one-shot gags are the commercials.

Oh, look! Player 1 and Player 2 are killing each other and making the exact same comments they've made fifty times in the past! And there's Chef Brian, acting as rascally as usual! What's this? Lucas tries to be cutting and sarcastic but goes on for a few speech balloons too many and instead comes off as a boring, long-winded poseur? And what of Ethan? Is he still being perhaps the most annoying, infantile, and overall despicable (What oh what does Lilah see in him?) character I've ever encounted in any medium? Of course he is! And there's the lovable scamp Scott, who pretty much does nothing but hide behind a blast door and say "groovy" a lot, but STILL gets a bunch of strips written about him! And who could forget Barry, who's so ridiculously bland that even I can't come up with anything overtly negative about him! And last but not least, Lucas's boss and Rob, whose gimmicks got old in the second strip they were used and have gone through the worst aging process imaginable!

And the video game strips... oh God... from the ones that give downright incorrect information without translating it into humor (rolling a 20 kills a dragon, influence in KotOR II is determined solely by doing good-evil things), to the ones where a thin and basic joke is stretched out for four panels (Battlefield: Modern Combat, Guitar Hero II), nothing good ever comes out of them.

Of course, this is all personal opinion and my word is by no means law, but it just seems to me like Buckley decided to take Penny Arcade, remove everything that makes it funny, and add a cliche sitcom plot. He had it working for a while, up until about a year and a half ago. But now... I only visit it to see if he's managed to break his record for All-Time Worst Strip again. And he does it so often.

[Casualgamer]

Granted, most comics that try to fall back on just plot all the time do indeed end up being flaming train wrecks; I'm not going to argue that.

OK! Then we're in agreement! That's all I was trying to say.

I can't say much to counter what you've said about CAD, except I disagree. I find it entertaining, and for me, that's enough.

[AmoDman]

No plot, huh? In ONLY 2006, we have Ethan's Quest for E3, Ethan's Quest for Oblivion, Marriage, Wintereenmas In Danger II. Four relatively long (except for Marriag, thanfully) story arcs, all of which relied on a single joke that wasn't funny the first time. At this point CAD has become a sitcom, where the bland and predictable story arcs are the programming and the tired one-shot gags are the commercials.

Oh, look! Player 1 and Player 2 are killing each other and making the exact same comments they've made fifty times in the past! And there's Chef Brian, acting as rascally as usual! What's this? Lucas tries to be cutting and sarcastic but goes on for a few speech balloons too many and instead comes off as a boring, long-winded poseur? And what of Ethan? Is he still being perhaps the most annoying, infantile, and overall despicable (What oh what does Lilah see in him?) character I've ever encounted in any medium? Of course he is! And there's the lovable scamp Scott, who pretty much does nothing but hide behind a blast door and say "groovy" a lot, but STILL gets a bunch of strips written about him! And who could forget Barry, who's so ridiculously bland that even I can't come up with anything overtly negative about him! And last but not least, Lucas's boss and Rob, whose gimmicks got old in the second strip they were used and have gone through the worst aging process imaginable!

And the video game strips... oh God... from the ones that give downright incorrect information without translating it into humor (rolling a 20 kills a dragon, influence in KotOR II is determined solely by doing good-evil things), to the ones where a thin and basic joke is stretched out for four panels (Battlefield: Modern Combat, Guitar Hero II), nothing good ever comes out of them.

Of course, this is all personal opinion and my word is by no means law, but it just seems to me like Buckley decided to take Penny Arcade, remove everything that makes it funny, and add a cliche sitcom plot. He had it working for a while, up until about a year and a half ago. But now... I only visit it to see if he's managed to break his record for All-Time Worst Strip again. And he does it so often.

Ummm...were you arguring that CAD was never funny or is no longer funny? Because the jokes and humour have, in fact, been exactly the same (theme-wise) since it started, and have actually gotten a lot better and more well-executed IMO than a lotta' the crappy first attempts. I mean, it's cool if you don't like CAD (it looks like it's type of humour just doesn't sit with you...yes the game comics were about one aspect, they were supposed to be, it wasn't a statement about the game but a small but ridiculous joke), but it's a pretty damn hard argument to make, I think, that it has, in fact, gotten worse. I've liked -almost- all the recent jokes than older ones. He's gotten better.

[Jibar]

I really can't add anything to this argument. Mostly because I love all the webcomics that we're saying suck. I'm the kind of guy who really loves something or absolutly hates it, so there's no real point trying to convince me otherwise.

Though I gotta add this, Scott isn't the only guy who updates dayly, Dominic Deegan does as well,

[McDeath]

Y'know, if I had a dollar for every person who thought they knew more about creating a webcomic than webcomickers (real word?), I'd have...four thousand, three hundred and twelve dollars and seven cents. But anyway.

Megatokyo was good at being a humurous comic. And now it is damn good at being a manga/romance comic, albeit a little too weepy recently. If it's not to your taste, don't read it.

CAD definitely ain't a deep comic, although it has been improving. But it is funny and has made some very biting comments recently.

PvP is dead? What? A sniper round to the head for the gentleman in the silly metal wings.

-McDeath

[jamesbard]

since we're all dumping our preferences here with apparently no intent to persuade or be dissuaded from them...

oots - love everything about it. i've even re-subscribed to dragon.

megatokyo - its clearly changed, but not clearly for better or worse. i miss the largo funny, but its nice that he's a character now. i still read it, buy the books, and want more megagear. since that's the point, fred has clearly succeeded in my view.

pvp - kurtz is a hack and sometimes a real jerk. the kind of jerk that most other people require illegal quantities of alchohol to attain, but which he seems to come to naturally. that said, pvp is pretty funny most of the time and i read that too.

pa - awesome funny. still, i feel like i'm slumming it.

cad - never read it. it's... eh.

also good - inverloch, shortpacked!

you'll like them, because i do! :P

[Ravens_Wing]

Well since everyone is giving their 2 cents on this subject so will I ;D

First off I Read many many differant webcomics of all differant styles.

Megatokyo has changed somewhat but i believe that the evolution that it has taken is in fact for the better. Sure it doesnt have the randomness that it once did but even back then the randomness fit into the story it was a good balance. now i can appreciate that not everyone likes the plot heavy webcomics so i can see how some people will say it is going down hill but if a comic does not ammuse you or strike your interest any more then stop reading it and enjoy it for what it was.

Webcomics are an art form in and of themselfs and there are different comics for different people. So if someone asks me if i like a comic i will tell them yes or no. and if they then ask me why i state my reasons but i find that life is too short to complain about things we dont enjoy as oppose to enjoying the things that we do.

but as i said that is just my oppinion ;)

[Casualgamer]

PvP is dead? What? A sniper round to the head for the gentleman in the silly metal wings.


I eat dragons for breakfast. I shower in automatic fire. I rinse my mouth with napalm. My avatar will eat you alive.

JK. My opinion.

[Kish]

Y'know, if I had a dollar for every person who thought they knew more about creating a webcomic than webcomickers (real word?), I'd have...four thousand, three hundred and twelve dollars and seven cents. But anyway.
Where'd the cents come from?

[Gary_Howard]

I read and enjoy Megatokyo for the plot, I'll admit. But I dislike the way it portrays Japan as a stereotypical Animeverse where all the cute girls just go mad over shy foreign boys with self-esteem issues. And while I'm sure 90% of MT readers realize that's not true, you'd be amazed at the number of Japanese language students at university who do believe it.

[Athanatos]

Ummm...were you arguring that CAD was never funny or is no longer funny? Because the jokes and humour have, in fact, been exactly the same (theme-wise) since it started, and have actually gotten a lot better and more well-executed IMO than a lotta' the crappy first attempts. I mean, it's cool if you don't like CAD (it looks like it's type of humour just doesn't sit with you...yes the game comics were about one aspect, they were supposed to be, it wasn't a statement about the game but a small but ridiculous joke), but it's a pretty damn hard argument to make, I think, that it has, in fact, gotten worse. I've liked -almost- all the recent jokes than older ones. He's gotten better.

CAD went through three stages:

1) Ripping off Penny Arcade and being bad at it.
2) Ripping off Penny Arcade and being good at it.
3) Trying to separate itself from Penny Arcade by... introducing a lot of dull story arcs and dumbing down the humor even further, I guess.

[McDeath]

The cents, lady, stem from the fact that not everyone is a whole person.

Casualgamer, my avatar is not a dragon. In reality, it exists on a plane of existence so far removed from our own that only one tiny, debased fragment can shine through into our spectrum.

[Casualgamer]

The cents, lady, stem from the fact that not everyone is a whole person.

Casualgamer, my avatar is not a dragon. In reality, it exists on a plane of existence so far removed from our own that only one tiny, debased fragment can shine through into our spectrum.


I'll still eat you and your basic avatar alive. Punk.

To support my last comment: http://www.pvponline.com/index.php3

NOT FUNNY.

[tomaO2]

I only started reading MegaTokyo about a month ago. I enjoyed the whole thing. I like how it was at the biginning and I like the changes. I will keep reading it.

The one thing I DON'T like is how the guy updates.

"One of the hardest working web comic creators on the Internet."?

I think not, He's one of... I mean he is the LEAST dependable author I read on a regular basis that does the comic as his JOB.

-8-Bit Theater, 3 days a week. If it misses a day there is a damn good reason and it's very rare.

-Schlock Mercenary- who NEVER misses a day. True, it's usally a small comic strip style while all the other's I have listed here are full page type webcomics (small strips take less work, it's not fair to compare for the most part) but his Sunday strips are large and all of them are colored and it updated EVERY day, on TIME and has for years.

-Misfile, who does 5 full manga pages a week without a single miss in the months I have read it.

-Something Positive, a comic that, for almost a full year, updated every day and when it didn't it MADE IT UP with a double or even triple update. It's not so dependable now but it's still better then MT and at least it doesn't pretend to have a fixed schedule. Besides it's not the author's job anymore, when it had an update for every day, even if it was late.

- Questionable Content, 5 days a week with no misses in the months I have read it.

- Flipside, updates 3 days a week with full manga pages PLUS if he gets enough donated he will do up to two extra pages a week. Even now, while he's publishing a book he still manages 3 times a week with NO MISSES the the months I have read his comic.

- Earthsong, reliable at twice a week and it's not the authors main job yet. She redid the entire first 3 chapters and expanded them greatly and still she managed to update better then MT did during it's recent publishing month. She got married and is on her honeymoon but still updates. When she gets back she has promised to update even more because ES will be her full time job. I belive her. She will show up MT as well.

- Inverloch, typically 3 pages twice a week. Blows MT out of the water and she has only missed one update since I started reading a few months ago.

- OotS. hmm, well, actually for a guy that does sticks Rich isn't exactly dependable and he is even cutting back to two strips a week for the summer. He has been late numerous times and has had a number of days where he didn't update. Still, he also has done double updates which makes up for quite a bit of the misses and tells us when he he late reliably Plus, he told us that he can't manage 3 strips a week and is doing two so he keeps our expectations more realistic.
*EDIT* He also made an entire book that was non internet related while keeping up the webcomic. the Giant is the only guy I know that has done that. It's something I really respect.*/EDIT*

- Goblins, he does full color pages with gorgeous art that. He only posts once a week but they are usually 3 pages long, that's the same as updates one pages on a mon, wends and fri schedule. Plus, he has done enough 4 page weeks that even the few times he has only managed two are more then made up for. He still works a job, has kids had put together a short story and has made an internet book (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=11897&affiliate_id=59 640)of his first chapter all without missing updates.

Every comic I read regularly where the author does it as their JOB (and even some that do it on their spare time) do better then MT.

ALLLLL these people work harder and are more reliable. NONE of them give me Dead Piro Day cop-outs or even worse Dom Shirt Day's. The Dom comics are just an insult to readers. I kind of like the Dead Piro days as opposed to nothing thouth but it's still a a way to cheat your readers from what you promise.

these are just the webcomics I have in my fav list and read regularly. There are plenty of other dependable authors as well, like that Alpha-Shade. MT doesn't deserve my money, he just doesn't put the work that his fanbase deserves for their loyalty.

[Krytha]

I'll still eat you and your basic avatar alive. Punk.

To support my last comment: http://www.pvponline.com/index.php3

NOT FUNNY.

In a previous post, you seemed to think that all my comments were directed solely at you. Perhaps your ego has grown to fill the vast emptiness of teh intarwebs.

So you don't find PvP funny... It doesn't suit your tastes, but linking the main page hardly supports your case at all. It may not be funny to you, but when I went there I saw Brent, a stalwart, pretentious intellectual zombified by his balls. There is some monkey in all of us.

No one is trying to get you to change your point of view. So stop forcing your views on other people as a method of argument.

*heehee I beat Brickwall by 0.03 seconds*

[Brickwall]

I'll still eat you and your basic avatar alive. Punk.

To support my last comment: http://www.pvponline.com/index.php3

NOT FUNNY.

So, what you're saying is that because you don't find Brent's ability to be a perfectly reasonable and intelligent being being totally destroyed by some chick letting her hair down isn't funny, that nobody else will? How very...maybe we can get Scott to draw a comic about that. However, the maker of Shortpacked makes fun of that frame of mind very often, and many of those refer to forums. Wait while I find this one...

Right above the bottom left box on the sheet (http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060405.html)

Keep it up, I wanna see if I can get BINGO.

[Casualgamer]

So, what you're saying is that because you don't find Brent's ability to be a perfectly reasonable and intelligent being being totally destroyed by some chick letting her hair down isn't funny, that nobody else will? How very...maybe we can get Scott to draw a comic about that. However, the maker of Shortpacked makes fun of that frame of mind very often, and many of those refer to forums. Wait while I find this one...

Right above the bottom left box on the sheet (http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060405.html)

Keep it up, I wanna see if I can get BINGO.


*I* certainly didn't find if funny, and I believe a good deal of people wouldn't. I *used* to read PvP I have since stopped as it began to fail to amuse me.

I did NOT, however, overtly claim that anyone here believes what I do, HENCE the reason I'm arguing.

The exchange on avatars was a joke, chill out. I don't see what you mean when you say I seem to think that all of the comments you made were directed at me, I think I was responding to the clever one-liner only.


No one is trying to get you to change your point of view. So stop forcing your views on other people as a method of argument.

Wait, so I'm forcing my opinion on others, when you said I should be shot for my beliefs on PvP?

[SalSar_Thiran]

Casual, in reading this thread I have to agree that you visiously attack anyone who says they like plot driven webcomics. I believe that you are one of those people who claim OOTS has 'lost its magic'. I am also willing to bet that you absolutely hated the trail arc because it was nothing but plot.

I will give my opinion now. I believe to from the bottom of my heart that OOTS is BETTER now than it ever has been. At first I read for the jokes, but now, now it is the plot and story that gives the characters depth and keeps me coming back. I find gag a day strips to be too uselessly boring to have any value.

Frankly I hope Mr. Burlew moves EVEN MORE into plot and story, because it's PLOT that keeps people listening to a story. And OOTS has always had a story.

Please do not flame me, I am merely expressing my beliefs on the situation and the webcomic.

[Krytha]

Wait, so I'm forcing my opinion on others, when you said I should be shot for my beliefs on PvP?



Um yes... and you seem to have me confused with McDeath, who ordered you to have a round with a sniper. He has the "basic" avatar that you will eat for breakfast, while mine is the more colourful chimera.

Think first, review, review, review again, then delete your post, then think some more, then review some more, and then post.

[Casualgamer]

Think first, review, review, review again, then delete your post, then think some more, then review some more, and then post.

*bows* Thank you very much for pointing that out. I won't delete it, just for the record.

However, I still fail to understand how I've flamed anybody. I *am* forceful, but I don't hold grudges against any of you, or have personally attacked any of you. I also don't get how I'm forcing my opinions on anyone. I am debating, I have stated my thesis, others have attacked it, and I have defended it. If I'm forcing my opinion on others, then stating my opinion in the first place must be clear evidence of my nazistic tendencies.

Salsar, you have stated your opinion, but have failed to rebuke any of my points,. Consider your opinion noted, but I still don't believe you.

[Brickwall]

Well, here's a break down of your argument.

"Megatokyo sucks now.

Stop telling me it doesn't suck, because it does. And CAD sucks too. They're all doing things I personally dislike.

Why won't you agree with me that they suck? Here's an example of why they suck!

What? I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone!"

Now, a few things:

1. At some point very early, you stopped mentioning that this was your personal opinion. You presented it as fact.
2. Many of your facts are untrue. Most people tihnk PvP is going strong (and I personally think QC is great, but I haven't actually read the opinions on that)
3. You are contradictory. "I am dissapointed with OoTS because I am seeing lots of plot" "I do not mind plot". Need I remind you that there has probably only been one OoTS without a punchline? Most have multiple jokes. They are delivered along with the plot.

If nobody thinks I'm right with this summary, I can always re-assess.

[Alhambra IV]

Well, as I remember, as to Casual's statements, I think he said he didn't think plot belonged in webcomics. (A view I personally disagree with, but whatever.) He didn't, as far as I know, make any blanket statements about all plot in general.

[Krytha]

@Brickwall

Is the Feud in your sig... the Miko/Roy thing?

[Casualgamer]

I find it ironic that you happened to use the bingo board on me...


Well, here's a break down of your argument.

"Megatokyo sucks now.

Oooooh, aren't you the attentive one!



Now, a few things:

1. At some point very early, you stopped mentioning that this was your personal opinion. You presented it as fact.

Doesn't the fact that I SAID it mean that it's my personal opinion? I'm sorry if you misinterpreted me, maybe you should spend time thinking into the meaning of somebody's posts before you insult them unprovoked.



2. Many of your facts are untrue. Most people tihnk PvP is going strong (and I personally think QC is great, but I haven't actually read the opinions on that)

Read your own bingo board. Look above the bottom-right corner. I'll also note that you never listed any of these so called "facts".



3. You are contradictory. "I am dissapointed with OoTS because I am seeing lots of plot" "I do not mind plot". Need I remind you that there has probably only been one OoTS without a punchline? Most have multiple jokes. They are delivered along with the plot.

Again, someone seriously needs to read deeper. I said that I do not mind plot in conjunction with humor, but I HATE it as a centerpiece. What I am dissapointed in, is how the jokes are fading into the background, whilst more and more strips revolve around nothing more than advancing the plot.

I am offended deeply by your unprovoked personal attacks, and hope that you learn to ARGUE before you present what you believe to be a snappy comment then sit back and pretend that you made a point.

[Brickwall]

I find it ironic that you happened to use the bingo board on me...


Oooooh, aren't you the attentive one!
Indeed.



Doesn't the fact that I SAID it mean that it's my personal opinion?
Not, not really. I could say "Order of the Stick sucks" and that caertainly isn't my personal opinion. To answer the question you wanted to ask, no. Unless you're bothering to argue that facts are only opinions shared by most, it is easy to state a fact without stating an opinion.


I'm sorry if you misinterpreted me, maybe you should spend time thinking into the meaning of somebody's posts before you insult them unprovoked.
1. I spend time thinking into the meaning of poetry and novels, not conversation. If your sentences need to be interpreted ina a debate, it's generally not a good thing.
2. I'm attacking your argument, not you personally. Yes, there's a difference. To put it in simple terms, "Love the sinner, hate the sin".


Read your own bingo board. Look above the bottom-right corner. I'll also note that you never listed any of these so called "facts".
1. Assuming you mean just above that corner, I should correct my statement. "Most of the people who discussed PvP in this post seem to believe it is not on a downward trend". There, I have corrected my error. Moving on?
2.
Ever read Exploitation Now? No Need for Bushido? Questionable Content? Slain, in the line of battle against PLOT.. At least one of these comics is still going strong

You state that plot never killed anything, and yet you fail to produce evidence. See above

if MT was release volume by volume It is, though the releases are few and far between anyway.



Again, someone seriously needs to read deeper.
I think I read a rule somewhere about accusing people of not reading your post correctly. More to the point, I read the posts.


I said that I do not mind plot in conjunction with humor, but I HATE it as a centerpiece. What I am dissapointed in, is how the jokes are fading into the background, whilst more and more strips revolve around nothing more than advancing the plot.
Fine. That one's your opinion. That doesn't mean everything you say is bad is actually bad. Humor can take advantage of plot, and some artists do that very well. I can't tell you what webcomics you should like, but try not singling them out from other types of story/joke-telling. They are not the same, but they are not separate. A comedy book or play needs a plot, so why not a webcomic? Again, if you have an opinion on that, it's fine. I even see your point of view. Just try not to make it so...definite(really can't think of a good word there)


I am offended deeply by your unprovoked personal attacks
I addressed this before, but I'll say it again. I AM ATTACKING YOUR ARGUMENT, NOT YOU. THAT IS HOW ONE AGRUES.


and hope that you learn to ARGUE
I'm not on a debate team or anything, but I think I just presented above that I, as a human being, understand the basic concepts of arguing. And, it seems you do as well. No surprise there. And if you're saying I argue poorly, weren't you the one accusing me of making personal attacks?


before you present what you believe to be a snappy comment
Snappy is when I make a short joke out of spite. I do not spite you. I joke because it is my nature. Wether or not people laugh at it is not my concern. However, I fail to see a point before this post in which I do that. In all seriousness, I'd like you to point it out to me. Or someone else. It doesn't matter.


then sit back and pretend that you made a point.
So, you mean to imply that I ramble on about something and ignore it, believing I have a point? I'll quote myself:
If nobody thinks I'm right with this summary, I can always re-assess.
The fact that I'm making this post is proof enough against your accusational and, frankly, quite offensive statement. I pride myself in being able to argue a point until I have seen a conclusion to the argument, and I'm doing that right now. Your attack against my integrity and personal rationality is not the way to go if you want to be accusing others of attacking you. A point is a submission to an argument that changes the course in the direction the maker intended, and my post did that. So, I seem to have made a point nonetheless, whether or not you choose to see past your accusations of me being "unable to argue". Whether or not the point was good, and whether or not it has stood/ will stand is another matter.

[Krytha]

Oooooh, aren't you the attentive one!


Its strange that you claim to be non-offensive in your arguments and non-inflammatory after a line like that. Theres no need to be snide when rebutting someone else's comments...

Oots has always been guided by plot first and humour second. Rich manages to balance it so that they are almost always inseperable (which is a blessing), but there has always been story and from the looks of things, there will always be story. So do you really hate OotS so much for being plot first, punchlines second? Your forum post count indicates that either you posted a ton in the recent past, or have been enjoying the strip (and its story) up until now, or have simply been hating it from the beginning, which is the MOST bizarre thing I could think of...

[Jibar]

Ummm...guys,
You might want to chill a bit.
This thread could be heading for a locking...

[Shigeki]

Personally, what made me stop reading is the fact that Fred is absolutely NOT open to any criticism. His standard response to any suggestion is "If you don't like it, don't read it. No one is forcing you." Eventually, I realized he was right.

But hey, it was cool to see Dom on Jeopardy, right?

[Brickwall]

Oots has always been guided by plot first and humour second

I'll disagree with that on the basis that the first few comics were quite non-plot oriented. Once you get to the comic where Elan introduces the plot, it's plot-oriented. Until then, no.

[Krytha]

I'll disagree with that on the basis that the first few comics were quite non-plot oriented. Once you get to the comic where Elan introduces the plot, it's plot-oriented. Until then, no.

The first couple of comics (all 12 of them) just had them placed in a dungeon. Just because the reader was waiting for exposition (13th comic) doesn't mean that there was no reason for the characters to be there. If Rich had the intention of having a plot, a goal for the characters to achieve, then the story was plot oriented.

[Brickwall]

We'll never know if he did. Maybe the comic was originally intended to be a gaming comic as opposed to a comic that had a plot.

[Midnight Son]

Personally, what made me stop reading is the fact that Fred is absolutely NOT open to any criticism. His standard response to any suggestion is "If you don't like it, don't read it. No one is forcing you." Eventually, I realized he was right.

But hey, it was cool to see Dom on Jeopardy, right?
Isn't that The Giant's response to most criticism as well?

[Casualgamer]

Not, not really. I could say "Order of the Stick sucks" and that caertainly isn't my personal opinion. To answer the question you wanted to ask, no. Unless you're bothering to argue that facts are only opinions shared by most, it is easy to state a fact without stating an opinion.

I like to think I respect others enough that I don't put words into the mouths of others. Furthermore, I have given no indication at all that I was being sarcastic, or making comments randomly, so its safe to say that what I say is my opinion.



1. I spend time thinking into the meaning of poetry and novels, not conversation. If your sentences need to be interpreted ina a debate, it's generally not a good thing.
2. I'm attacking your argument, not you personally. Yes, there's a difference. To put it in simple terms, "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

Attacking my argument? In what way? As far as I've seen so far, you've agree with my primary thesis. As you put it yourself, "Megatokyo sucks now". You seem to disagree with my take on plot in webcomics, but instead of actually countering anything I said, you produce a rather insulting bingo board. As you didn't counter my arguement, I naturally took that as a personal attack.

In short, I actually don't KNOW what your argument is.



1. Assuming you mean just above that corner, I should correct my statement. "Most of the people who discussed PvP in this post seem to believe it is not on a downward trend". There, I have corrected my error. Moving on?

Thank you. No need to be snappy.



. At least one of these comics is still going strong
See above
It is, though the releases are few and far between anyway.


At least where I come from, QC is quite dead. Regardless, I don't find it interesting, though I did, anymore.

However, the others are quite dead and buried, No Need for Bushido being the exception is it is still somehow limping on.



Fine. That one's your opinion. That doesn't mean everything you say is bad is actually bad. Humor can take advantage of plot, and some artists do that very well. I can't tell you what webcomics you should like, but try not singling them out from other types of story/joke-telling. They are not the same, but they are not separate. A comedy book or play needs a plot, so why not a webcomic? Again, if you have an opinion on that, it's fine. I even see your point of view. Just try not to make it so...definite(really can't think of a good word there)

Hence the reason I'm arguing. If everyone agreed with me, why am I here?

It certainly needs a plot to hold it together (although Penny Arcade has somehow done without one), but again, once it becomes plot CENTERED, things go bad, as shown by the webcomics I have listed, RPG World especially.

In the case of webcomics like MT, the general development is as follows:

-Artist wishes to express funny happenings and jokes through sequential art.

-Webcomic becomes popular, and artists decides that now that he has people reading his stuff, to incorporate a plot that he had floating around in his/her head.

-Webcomic changes drastically, majority fanbase remains loyal, others are alienated.

This would work out fine, except for one thing: most webcomics, when in the "funny stage" happen to have elements that would only make sense in a comedy. In the case of MT, ninjas, Rent-a-Zilla, etc. In RPG World, the fact that the entire thing is an FFVII parody. While the comic is still funny, people find that these random elements add to the humor, and create funny situations. When the comic enters the "plot phase" however, the artist is left with a dilemma: none of that crap actually works anymore.

MT is a romantic comedy. Thats fine, whatever. But its a romantic comedy that involves ninjas, Rent-a-Zilla, and etc. It not longer makes sense, and it detracts from the now plot-centered structure. In the case of OoTS, we see OoTS start as a stick figure comic poking fun at the d20 system and other RPG conventions. Now, as it becomes more plot centered, the funny has begun to fall away, with a story taking its place. That would be fine, but OoTS is a STICK FIGURE WEBCOMIC. Stick figures worked fine for the comedy. They do not for the story. How am I supposed to take a story, acted out by STICK FIGUREs, seriously?

See what I mean? Plot, ESPECIALLY when introduced after a "funny" stage, kills webcomics, and OoTS would be wise to heed what has happened to others.



I addressed this before, but I'll say it again. I AM ATTACKING YOUR ARGUMENT, NOT YOU. THAT IS HOW ONE AGRUES.

I'm not on a debate team or anything, but I think I just presented above that I, as a human being, understand the basic concepts of arguing. And, it seems you do as well. No surprise there. And if you're saying I argue poorly, weren't you the one accusing me of making personal attacks?

Snappy is when I make a short joke out of spite. I do not spite you. I joke because it is my nature. Wether or not people laugh at it is not my concern. However, I fail to see a point before this post in which I do that. In all seriousness, I'd like you to point it out to me. Or someone else. It doesn't matter.

So, you mean to imply that I ramble on about something and ignore it, believing I have a point? I'll quote myself:
The fact that I'm making this post is proof enough against your accusational and, frankly, quite offensive statement. I pride myself in being able to argue a point until I have seen a conclusion to the argument, and I'm doing that right now. Your attack against my integrity and personal rationality is not the way to go if you want to be accusing others of attacking you. A point is a submission to an argument that changes the course in the direction the maker intended, and my post did that. So, I seem to have made a point nonetheless, whether or not you choose to see past your accusations of me being "unable to argue". Whether or not the point was good, and whether or not it has stood/ will stand is another matter.

I have already adressed all of this.


Oots has always been guided by plot first and humour second. Rich manages to balance it so that they are almost always inseperable (which is a blessing), but there has always been story and from the looks of things, there will always be story. So do you really hate OotS so much for being plot first, punchlines second? Your forum post count indicates that either you posted a ton in the recent past, or have been enjoying the strip (and its story) up until now, or have simply been hating it from the beginning, which is the MOST bizarre thing I could think of...

No no no, little pixie, it was not. Go back, read it, think, and post again.

You have misinterpreted my comics. I believe I have explicitly said that I have only recently been dissapointed in OoTS.



I wholeheartedly apologize if I have misinterpreted any of your responses, but the way I see it, I'm making points here, and people are being overly acerbic in response.

[Brickwall]

Well, to address two audiences here, I have thought of a webcoimic format (that I may start someday when I become a good artist and writer. I'll hold off a few years)

Two related webcomics. Both have the same characters. One is all about plot. Humor is in, but takes a backseat to plot. The other is pretty much the opposite. Day-to-day humor with maybe 5-comic storylines at highest. The most serious moments will still have punchlines. Plot is, if anything, a backdrop to make humor. The comics would be intertwined into one universe, being practically but not totally independent. You could read one without the other, but it would make a lot more sense if one read both.

So, my question, CG, is: would you read both, one, or neither? Answer that, and I think your opinion will be clear enough. At least to me. Then I can shut up and be out of your hair, which I can assume will make you happy.

[Skydiving_Ninja]

I shall now use my all-powerful powers (which convieniently materialized at this very second) to end the fued between Brickwall and CasualGamer on CasualGamer's comments about not liking page-by-page webcomics that REVOLVE around plot and back on the subject of MegaTokyo.

Back then: Megatokyo was awesome. Two dudes, one being an obsessive gamer who fantazizes (most likely sp?) about his games in real life, and another is a weepy otaku fanboy. Too many DPD's cheating us out of our comic. Video game and awkward grrly moment funny ahoy.

Now: Not too many jokes. Infrequent updating (even though Fred works on the comic FULL TIME). Even more DPD's cheating us. Everyone is a love-sick emo. Even Largo (kinda...at least he still speaks in l33t and video game terms). It has now become a shojo manga, a genre I personally dislike greatly. I will admit that the art is better (although, for some reason, his females all look alot alike).

But because I need to know what happens at the end, I read it anyway...

[Casualgamer]

Well, to address two audiences here, I have thought of a webcoimic format (that I may start someday when I become a good artist and writer. I'll hold off a few years)

Two related webcomics. Both have the same characters. One is all about plot. Humor is in, but takes a backseat to plot. The other is pretty much the opposite. Day-to-day humor with maybe 5-comic storylines at highest. The most serious moments will still have punchlines. Plot is, if anything, a backdrop to make humor. The comics would be intertwined into one universe, being practically but not totally independent. You could read one without the other, but it would make a lot more sense if one read both.

So, my question, CG, is: would you read both, one, or neither? Answer that, and I think your opinion will be clear enough. At least to me. Then I can shut up and be out of your hair, which I can assume will make you happy.

A few questions: would the plot-based webcomic START plot-based, or start humorously then take a sharp, left, turn? And what of the frequency of updates?

I would gladly read both, if the plot-based one started plot-based and updated daily, but in most other circumstances, the humorous one would be a good deal more attractive.

[6079smithw]

I don't understand; wouldn't the relative quality of plot and humor-based comics depend on the quality of the plot and humor, respectively? Or is the argument just that webcomics are a poor medium for one form or the other? Because it seems to me to be kinds of silly to say that an episodic narrative just won't work because you only get to see the next bit at the rate of two or three a week; serials did fantastically well in newspapers and magazines for years, updating at once a week or month for the most part. Plot based comic strips used to predominate newspapers, too. Throwing up examples of a specific crappy comic with a plot certainly doesn't prove than none could be good; that's like saying that movies shouldn't try to be funny because of White Girls.

[Brickwall]

A few questions: would the plot-based webcomic START plot-based, or start humorously then take a sharp, left, turn? And what of the frequency of updates?

I would gladly read both, if the plot-based one started plot-based and updated daily, but in most other circumstances, the humorous one would be a good deal more attractive.

It starts plot based (I have the script for pages 1-3 done out. The first thing that happensis somebody dies). And now, I have learned everything about your argument from this new perspective of your answer. I have no further qualms, and understand every point you have made through this new insight. Thankyou.

And as for updating daily, it'd be released on a chapter-by-chapter basis only. I find that, although I can make pages independent, I prefer not to be restricted (much like OtOoPCs). Thus, I will not be pulling Piros.

Why am I saying this like I am definite on doing the comic? I don't even know if I am! But I'm done arguing nonetheless.

[Krytha]

Thank you. No need to be snappy.
-
No no no, little pixie, it was not. Go back, read it, think, and post again.
-
I wholeheartedly apologize if I have misinterpreted any of your responses, but the way I see it, I'm making points here, and people are being overly acerbic in response.

So... once again, you've outdone yourself. Order of the Stick plot officially started at comic 13. In no way was there a large history of stand alone gags. From the very first comic, I felt there was a story and lo and behold, one did begin to unfold after a whopping 12 comics. Im inclined to say that OotS always had a story behind it.

Attributing someone's personal knowledge and/or experience to their post count... all the while claiming to be fair and open-minded. Um yeah... what's that about?

Somehow, you have dragged me into your personal argument with Brickwall with misattribution, misdirection or vaudeville.

[Brickwall]

Indeed, I was quite an avid reader of OotS way before I joined the forums. My brother has been as long as I, and he isn't a forum poster at all. A pixie may truly be a giant, and the lurkers are the judges of the forums. They observe silently. They know from a different perspective. Truly, a lurker or pixie may be the best informed of all.

So, please, don't refer to someone by rank. Excpet Rich. Or maybe the mods occasionally. But it should otherwise be unimportant.

[Casualgamer]

So... once again, you've outdone yourself. Order of the Stick plot officially started at comic 13. In no way was there a large history of stand alone gags. From the very first comic, I felt there was a story and lo and behold, one did begin to unfold after a whopping 12 comics. Im inclined to say that OotS always had a story behind it.

Attributing someone's personal knowledge and/or experience to their post count... all the while claiming to be fair and open-minded. Um yeah... what's that about?

Somehow, you have dragged me into your personal argument with Brickwall with misattribution, misdirection or vaudeville.

In episode 13 the plot was REVEALED, but in no way did it become PLOT CENTERED (the element that I'm complaining about) even up until now.

I never made any assumptions based on your post count, did I say "you are stupid because you are a pixie"? No. I didn't.

In fact, the only reason I brought that up, was because you tried to use post count against me.

I don't understand; wouldn't the relative quality of plot and humor-based comics depend on the quality of the plot and humor, respectively? Or is the argument just that webcomics are a poor medium for one form or the other? Because it seems to me to be kinds of silly to say that an episodic narrative just won't work because you only get to see the next bit at the rate of two or three a week; serials did fantastically well in newspapers and magazines for years, updating at once a week or month for the most part. Plot based comic strips used to predominate newspapers, too. Throwing up examples of a specific crappy comic with a plot certainly doesn't prove than none could be good; that's like saying that movies shouldn't try to be funny because of White Girls.

Yes, my argument is that webcomics are, indeed a poor medium for plot based webcomics, largely because of reasons I have already listed, and you have failed to notice.

Do you wish for me to reiterate? Very well:

1. Plot based webcomics are NEVER as popular as their gag counterparts. Sluggy and PA both outrank and outclass Inverloch and Alpha Shade.This alone is indication of the sucess (or rather failure) of webcomics as a medium for plot.

2. The majority of popular plot-based webcomics were not originally that way, and elements left over from the days when it was gag-based can neither be ignored, nor erased due to a fanbase, and thus simply continue to distract from plot and character development.

3. You call it ridiculous, but imagine that you are reading a comic book. Let say, Spawn. However, you can only read a single colored page, 1-3 times a week. Then, on one of these days, instead of a comic-book page, you get some crap about the artist getting a headache. Sometimes, you don't even GET anything. Ultimately it's frustrating, and "hard" counterparts can do the same thing, but without the frustrating lag between pages.

You list plot-based comics in newspapers as evidence of your point, but tell me: what kind of comics dominate those newspapers now? I've never heard of a newspaper plot-based comic artist. But I HAVE heard of Herblock. Peanuts, Garfield, they're all famous. Plot-based comic artists have faded into obscurity.

[Midnight Son]

On the subject of plot based web comics; http://www.jungle-fire.com/

I love this comic. Very little funny. Updates about once a month.

[Krytha]

I never made any assumptions based on your post count, did I say "you are stupid because you are a pixie"? No. I didn't.

In fact, the only reason I brought that up, was because you tried to use post count against.

First of all, saying something like "no, no, no, little pixie" is condescending to the point of saying - you know nothing because you are a pixie. So no you didn't say that expressedly but you implied it. I take it you fully support the press secretaries of the white house.

My comment was based around how you got to your post count (either posting frequently recently, or over a long period of time O NOES! TEH INSULTZZ!) and it wasn't a personal attack. So go figure.

*Edit* I was going to throw out something about how Peanuts and Garfield aren't great comics, but are classics and that their status is not due to their quality, but a generational span and a shift away from that brand of so-so humour. But arguing with CG is so painfully tedious and annoying that I quit. YOU WIN CG! YOU WIN TEH INTARWEBS!

[Gary_Howard]

Personally, what made me stop reading is the fact that Fred is absolutely NOT open to any criticism. His standard response to any suggestion is "If you don't like it, don't read it. No one is forcing you." Eventually, I realized he was right.

But hey, it was cool to see Dom on Jeopardy, right?

He was on Jeopardy? Cool!

[Brickwall]

He was on Jeopardy? Cool!

Yes, yes he was. And his blog posts are WAY better than Fred's.

[viking099]

One of the most popular strips around, noted for its detailed pencil work. What do you guys think about it?

Here's my opinion: Megatokyo has gone downhill. Badly. Actually, it kinda fell off a cliff. The thing with the biggest webcomic kill count is plot, and ever since Rodney Caston was blackmailed into leaving Megatokyo, it's become a crappy romantic "comedy" with way too much "plot". It's what killed PvP, and almost killed Ctrl-Alt-Del.

In the era of Caston, Largo played the crazy dude, and Piro the straight man.

Nowadays Piro is, in fact emo. It's like frickin' Megatokyo Chemical Romance. Even Largo is becoming more emotional. It's sad, really.

What do you think?


I actually signed up for an account to address this.

Piro did not "blackmail" Largo into leaving MT. Piro essentially said, "Hey, if you don't sign everything over to me, I'm walking."
Largo could have refused, but he didn't, because he wanted MT to succeed.
Someone quoted the Wiki Article(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatokyo), and even his statement says as much. Largo had the opportunity to split MT right down the middle, but he didn't. That's not Piro's fault.
So feel free to dislike the comic for whatever reason you choose to. Try to not use fallacious reasons to validate your opinions. Blackmail is a pretty specific term, and there is no evidence Piro did anything even approaching blackmail. The only thing I can think it could be is "hard ball" which, last I checked, is not illegal, or even immoral.

[Shigeki]

He was on Jeopardy? Cool!

When Alex asked him to share something about himself, he said "Well, I speak some japanese, but all the japanese I know I learned from videogames. So I can't say good afternoon, but I know five different ways to challenge someone to a fight!"

And to adress Viking099, it may not have been blackmail, but he sure didn't have the readers in mind. In fact, I get the feeling Fred only does MT for himself, and we're just along for the ride. My main reason for leaving MT wasn't the comic, it was Fred himself. I mean, I'm sure he's a nice enough guy, but come on, think of the readers once in a while.

[Brickwall]

Randy, writer of Something Positive, did a few comics about stopping reading something because of a disagreement you have with the writer. The end result was that that was a bad idea, unless you were paying them a lot of money to read it. It was especially bad if you REALLY liked reading it, but I am not getting that vibe from around here.

[Shigeki]

Nah, I kinda fell out with the comic itself as well, but Fred was the main reason.

[Casualgamer]

I actually signed up for an account to address this.

Piro did not "blackmail" Largo into leaving MT. Piro essentially said, "Hey, if you don't sign everything over to me, I'm walking."
Largo could have refused, but he didn't, because he wanted MT to succeed.
Someone quoted the Wiki Article(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatokyo), and even his statement says as much. Largo had the opportunity to split MT right down the middle, but he didn't. That's not Piro's fault.
So feel free to dislike the comic for whatever reason you choose to. Try to not use fallacious reasons to validate your opinions. Blackmail is a pretty specific term, and there is no evidence Piro did anything even approaching blackmail. The only thing I can think it could be is "hard ball" which, last I checked, is not illegal, or even immoral.

I'd call that "blackmailing among friends". Fred threatens something Rod cares about, Rod has no choice but to back down. One way or another, it looks, smells, and feels underhanded, and I feel bad for him. Rodney that is.

[jamesbard]

When Alex asked him to share something about himself, he said "Well, I speak some japanese, but all the japanese I know I learned from videogames. So I can't say good afternoon, but I know five different ways to challenge someone to a fight!"
dom is a pretty funny guy. too bad his comics suck so much. :)

And to adress Viking099, it may not have been blackmail, but he sure didn't have the readers in mind. In fact, I get the feeling Fred only does MT for himself, and we're just along for the ride. My main reason for leaving MT wasn't the comic, it was Fred himself. I mean, I'm sure he's a nice enough guy, but come on, think of the readers once in a while.
i don't know if you're young or what, but beating your head against the wall is not something i'd do "for the readers" either. if i were getting that frustrated with a fundamental conflict between myself and a partner in the venture, i'd do what it takes to resolve it, and what the whinging readers want is not going to be my concern. at all. and if they think i owe them anything, they can right well get bent. i mean, seriously.

jeebus suffered for us so that webcomic artists don't have to.

[Falkus]

See what I mean?

As a matter of fact, no.

[Casualgamer]

As a matter of fact, no.

Why?

Give me something to argue against here!

[kendrama]

It certainly needs a plot to hold it together (although Penny Arcade has somehow done without one), but again, once it becomes plot CENTERED, things go bad, as shown by the webcomics I have listed...

I'd have to say that the two exceptions that spring to my mind first are 8-Bit Theater and A Modest Destiny (well, up until the last season of AMD, anyway...but that I think had more to do with personal issues on the part of the artist than anything else). Part of this I think comes from the fact that with a sprite comic, it doesn't seem to be quite as time-intensive for the creator as MT, so the updates are generally much more reliable. I can usually handle waiting for the next little sliver of plot if I'm pretty sure I'll get it in a timely fashion.

For 8BT, though, I think there's an even better reason: since the whole comic is following the course of the original Final Fantasy game, we already know exactly where they're headed. The funny comes from seeing how they get there, and how much random destruction they cause along the way. Plus, Brian has almost always made more of a series of short story arcs, each maybe three weeks long at the most, that all contribute to the larger plot but can be enjoyed independently of it. Even his running gags, like the real Light Warriors, are usually inserted in a way that they're still funny even if you haven't read the archives and seen them before. We're never left hanging, having to sit through two weeks of Dead Piro and Shirt Guy Dom days (although I will definitely agree that Dom's blog entries blow Fred's out of the water), with maybe a guest comic thrown in to keep the proles happy (and before anybody starts, no, I am not an artist, and no, I have no clue how much work goes into making a comic; I just know how much work I'm willing to put into reading one, and MT has just about hit that limit. Sorry if that makes me sound like a bad person).


MT is a romantic comedy. Thats fine, whatever. But its a romantic comedy that involves ninjas, Rent-a-Zilla, and etc. It not longer makes sense, and it detracts from the now plot-centered structure.

To an extent I agree with you; the new focus on plot and character have turned what used to be some very funny bits into a distraction, and they almost seem a little tired and repetitive at this point, like Fred's just throwing them in to try and make his critics happy and keep from further alienating some of the original fans. The problem is, I don't think he's as interested in the funny as he is in the plot, and it's really starting to show. I happen to think that the plot itself is very good, but I think he needs to fish or cut bait at this point. Go full-fledged shojo (which, as my huge collection of manga can attest, does not necessarily mean unfunny; Card Captor Sakura and Kare Kano both come to mind), or pull back from the deep emotional stuff to a more straight comedy. This weird middle ground is starting to get kind of annoying, especially with the glacially slow page loads and the spotty updates.


In the case of OoTS, we see OoTS start as a stick figure comic poking fun at the d20 system and other RPG conventions. Now, as it becomes more plot centered, the funny has begun to fall away, with a story taking its place. That would be fine, but OoTS is a STICK FIGURE WEBCOMIC. Stick figures worked fine for the comedy. They do not for the story. How am I supposed to take a story, acted out by STICK FIGUREs, seriously?

I guess this is a personal preference thing; I don't have a problem with it, myself. In fact, in some ways I think it's pretty brilliant, and definitely original, but then I live in a town where random citizens (and not teenagers, either; I'm talking local business owners) will sometimes go out onto the main street in the middle of the night, paint a giant stick man on the road, and scribble "Skippy Lives!" next to it. There's even a line of t-shirts in some of the gift stores around town that say "Welcome to (blank), Home of Skippy" and have a picture of a stick man with tire tracks over his head on them.

Honestly, I think it's something in the water.

[Kish]

The first couple of comics (all 12 of them) just had them placed in a dungeon. Just because the reader was waiting for exposition (13th comic) doesn't mean that there was no reason for the characters to be there. If Rich had the intention of having a plot, a goal for the characters to achieve, then the story was plot oriented.

We'll never know if he did.
Actually, yes, knowing if he did is as simple as reading what he wrote about the shift in strip 13 in Dungeon Crawling Fools.

Belkar's "We have a goal?" is actually something of an in-joke; until that strip, they really were on course to merely wander around, kill some sentient green-fanged creatures, and take their stuff.

[Casualgamer]

I'd have to say that the two exceptions that spring to my mind first are 8-Bit Theater and A Modest Destiny (well, up until the last season of AMD, anyway...but that I think had more to do with personal issues on the part of the artist than anything else). Part of this I think comes from the fact that with a sprite comic, it doesn't seem to be quite as time-intensive for the creator as MT, so the updates are generally much more reliable. I can usually handle waiting for the next little sliver of plot if I'm pretty sure I'll get it in a timely fashion.


Well of course there are certain exceptions, but I'm not sure 8BT is one. The plot is pretty... um... not coherent. I've never heard of AMD.

[Shigeki]

dom is a pretty funny guy. too bad his comics suck so much. :)
i don't know if you're young or what, but beating your head against the wall is not something i'd do "for the readers" either. if i were getting that frustrated with a fundamental conflict between myself and a partner in the venture, i'd do what it takes to resolve it, and what the whinging readers want is not going to be my concern. at all. and if they think i owe them anything, they can right well get bent. i mean, seriously.

jeebus suffered for us so that webcomic artists don't have to.

...That's not what I meant. I meant that he doesn't ever seem to show concern for the readers. I'm not saying he should cater to their every whim, I'm just saying it would have been nice if he acknowledged our existence every year or so. ;D

And age-wise, I have lived to see the lifetimes of many men... or not.

[kendrama]

Well of course there are certain exceptions, but I'm not sure 8BT is one. The plot is pretty... um... not coherent. I've never heard of AMD.

I think part of the incoherence is just Brian's writing style. :) Have you ever read any of his book, Nuklear Age? Nuke makes all of the Light Warriors (even Fighter) look like sane, rational genuises. :D I'll admit the plot gets pretty muddled at times, but whenever I go back and re-read the archives it's pretty easy to pick it up again, especially once I found a copy of the game (well, the PS1 version, anyway) and played it.

As far as AMD goes, the original site was taken down after the creator, Squidi, decided to withdraw from the Internet. I discovered it literally the day he posted his final comic, so I don't claim any firsthand knowledge of the whole fight, but apparently there was some really ugly episode between him and some of the people on the Penny Arcade message boards, and it ended with Squidi pulling his entire site down and turning it into a rather unpleasant, world-hating blog (at least, to my point of view - and I'm not saying he didn't have any reason to hate at least some of the world, it just wasn't much fun to read). He's since relented, and reposted the majority of the site's original content in the archives on www.squidi.net. I think he's planning on finishing the story some day, but for the moment it's still on hiatus.

While it lasted, A Modest Destiny was one of my favorites; in fact, only 8BT could even come close. Great character development, a well-rounded plot, and some really clever jokes. The last season was pretty dark, but it was still funny, just morbid in spots. My absolute favorite character was Hechter, a living suit of armor (think Alphonse from Fullmetal Alchemist, if you're into anime) that was created by the vampire lord Fluffy. In some ways he reminds me of Garland from 8BT, but Hechter's got way more personality.

[toysailor]

It seems to me that (i.e. which is IMHO, a view that is my prerogative to maintain and not wish to debate on) Casualgamer is taking it upon himself to be Rodney Caston's online crusader.

Chill dude. Its making you sprout endless reams of rhetoric on webcomic plot/humour, how Fred Gallagher was unethical in his dealings, etc. etc. etc. This is all unecessary. A lot of posters have already given their input, about how its all a matter of opinion. Even if, somehow, you manage to convince them of your righteousness in the next uber post, its gonna make you look like a merciless, authoritative ****.

Ok, moving on to the topic.

There are lots of things to criticize about Megatokyo. How the female characters look all the same, how much of a cyber-wank it is to make most of the female characters feel attracted to Piro (the author's personna in the comic), how the irregular and slow updates are detrimental to the pacing of a plot based comic, how Caston's departure had made the narrative degenerate into a fan-boy shojo etc. etc. etc.

Eh..... that's a whole lot of stuff to whine about. Seriously, if it sucks so much, just don't read it. People go on about how "Oh we're raising our concerns [i.e. bitching] so the author will take note and can do something about it" - yea ok, thats fine. The author can rewrite it all to make you happy, at the expense of others who are enjoying the product at the moment.

Nice Job.

Last time I checked, Megatokyo has a reasonably large fan-base - ergo, enough people are supporting it for Gallagher to continue with his project. The critics are grasping at straws here if they think their opinions can improve a product that's currently enjoying a bit of popularity and success.

Last time I checked, Megatokyo is available free in webcomic form. If you aren't paying for the product, maybe that gives you less of a right to slate Gallagher's efforts. And if you are, indeed, buying Megatokyo stuff, but hate the darned thing so much, and have to come to internet forums to air your terrible grievances, you're being an idiot.

Just my 2cts. Take it with a pinch of salt - no need to strip every paragraph down into their base sentences for your "debate".

[Brickwall]

no need to strip every paragraph down into their base sentences for your "debate".

That phrase may have saved your life. Or at least a few hours of it. That is, if it is listened to.

[toysailor]

I won't count on it. He's "fueled by endless rage" - says so under his nice avatar. :-/

[Casualgamer]

It seems to me that (i.e. which is IMHO, a view that is my prerogative to maintain and not wish to debate on) Casualgamer is taking it upon himself to be Rodney Caston's online crusader.

Chill dude. Its making you sprout endless reams of rhetoric on webcomic plot/humour, how Fred Gallagher was unethical in his dealings, etc. etc. etc. This is all unecessary. A lot of posters have already given their input, about how its all a matter of opinion. Even if, somehow, you manage to convince them of your righteousness in the next uber post, its gonna make you look like a merciless, authoritative ****.

Ok, moving on to the topic.

There are lots of things to criticize about Megatokyo. How the female characters look all the same, how much of a cyber-wank it is to make most of the female characters feel attracted to Piro (the author's personna in the comic), how the irregular and slow updates are detrimental to the pacing of a plot based comic, how Caston's departure had made the narrative degenerate into a fan-boy shojo etc. etc. etc.

Eh..... that's a whole lot of stuff to whine about. Seriously, if it sucks so much, just don't read it. People go on about how "Oh we're raising our concerns [i.e. bitching] so the author will take note and can do something about it" - yea ok, thats fine. The author can rewrite it all to make you happy, at the expense of others who are enjoying the product at the moment.

Nice Job.

Last time I checked, Megatokyo has a reasonably large fan-base - ergo, enough people are supporting it for Gallagher to continue with his project. The critics are grasping at straws here if they think their opinions can improve a product that's currently enjoying a bit of popularity and success.

Last time I checked, Megatokyo is available free in webcomic form. If you aren't paying for the product, maybe that gives you less of a right to slate Gallagher's efforts. And if you are, indeed, buying Megatokyo stuff, but hate the darned thing so much, and have to come to internet forums to air your terrible grievances, you're being an idiot.

Just my 2cts. Take it with a pinch of salt - no need to strip every paragraph down into their base sentences for your "debate".

Lot to talk about here.

The first is, that the "debate" is essentially resolved, and I had no intention of posting here again, until this.

The second is, that last I looked, forums were for expressing your opinions on various topics as a form of entertainment. Last I looked, that was what I was doing.

The third is, that I already know nothing I say or do can save MT now. You could call it blowing off a good deal of cyber-steam. Or, you could call it a warning to OoTS.

The fourth is, I know I'm an authoritative ****. That's part of the pluses to arguing on the internet: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Brickwall and I have already settled our little "personal" exchange, and I'd rather not start a namecalling-fest with you.

The fifth is, I think you'd fall under a personal category of mine labeled, "backseat critic". If I didn't want to talk about the shortcomings of MT, then why the hell did I make this thread? Let's pretend that I like MT. I'd STILL talk about its shortcomings. What ELSE am I supposed to talk about? How great it is? You can go somewhere else if you don't want to read this "bitching". Apparently, I'm one of the few people around who'd rather not sit around and fellate Gallagher or whoever all day.

In short, as you said it yourself, if you don't like it, don't read it, hypocrit.

[Jibar]

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

Weeeeell...I have quite a few plans to use incase an internet ally turns against me, so, you're not completely invulnerable,

[Falkus]

Why?

Because your argument relies on the unproven assertation that plot based element cannot work with humor based elements.

[Casualgamer]

Weeeeell...I have quite a few plans to use incase an internet ally turns against me, so, you're not completely invulnerable,

"Internet ally"? I'm not going to ask ::)


Because your argument relies on the unproven assertation that plot based element cannot work with humor based elements.

You really didn't read anything I wrote did you? I never made that assertion. EVER.

[Jibar]

"Internet ally"? I'm not going to ask ::)




Everyone who does regrets it.
Very quickly.

[Casualgamer]

Everyone who does regrets it.
Very quickly.

Well then I hope I'm not on your bad side. Ever.

[Brickwall]

You really didn't read anything I wrote did you? I never made that assertion. EVER.

While I'm aware of the fact that you never made that assertion, and in fact have made assertions that would preclude it, please stop accusing people of not reading your posts. We are all literate. We are all spending time reading your quarter page-long posts. However, with the massive amount of text there is, plus the fact that other posts get blurred in, people can get some false interpretations. Humans do not respond well to massive amounts of stimuli, and the information gets piled together. Stop accusing people of being morons, and just leave it at "I never said that".

And, incidentally, I am already aware that you have never used the word 'moron' or a synonym thereof, so don't bother disputing that part.

[toysailor]

Lot to talk about here.

The first is, that the "debate" is essentially resolved, and I had no intention of posting here again, until this.

The second is, that last I looked, forums were for expressing your opinions on various topics as a form of entertainment. Last I looked, that was what I was doing.

The third is, that I already know nothing I say or do can save MT now. You could call it blowing off a good deal of cyber-steam. Or, you could call it a warning to OoTS.

The fourth is, I know I'm an authoritative ****. That's part of the pluses to arguing on the internet: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? Brickwall and I have already settled our little "personal" exchange, and I'd rather not start a namecalling-fest with you.

The fifth is, I think you'd fall under a personal category of mine labeled, "backseat critic". If I didn't want to talk about the shortcomings of MT, then why the hell did I make this thread? Let's pretend that I like MT. I'd STILL talk about its shortcomings. What ELSE am I supposed to talk about? How great it is? You can go somewhere else if you don't want to read this "bitching". Apparently, I'm one of the few people around who'd rather not sit around and fellate Gallagher or whoever all day.

In short, as you said it yourself, if you don't like it, don't read it, hypocrit.

Basically, you're taking the path of:

1. You have a right to express my opinion.
2. Forums are here for this purpose.
3. I am a hypocrite for slating you, for slating MT.

Yea ok, but when you're being hostile to basically almost everyone here with a different opinion, you are abusing your rights. I don't see how I'm being hypocritical in my first post when what I am criticizing you about has little to do with you posting your opinions, but rather the way in which you are making you making them known. I didn't state at anytime that I did not wish to read your "bitching"; but rather the overbearing way in which you are making them (re: Merciless, authoritative ****).

1. You bitch about MT. (Your right)
2. I bitch about you bitching. (My right)

How does this make me a hypocrite? To borrow your words:

"Let's pretend I like what your post. I'll STILL talk about the post's shortcomings. What ELSE am I supposed to talk about? How great the post is?"

Sure sounds stupid doesn't it?

Dude, when I said people could just lay off MegaTokyo if they hate it so much, I meant just that. Not talking about forums or freedom of speeches here since they are different avenues altogether. And on the basis of a wrong context, you had me pegged as a hypocrite.

Baby Jesus Cries.

I signed up for this forum last year. I have, to date, about 20-30 odd posts. The fact that such a long time lurker can finally be roused to comment on your posting style does mean something.

Think about it.

[kendrama]

Yea ok, but when you're being hostile to basically everyone here with a different opinion, you are infringing on their said rights.

??? I'm pretty sure I disagreed with him, even outright contradicted him, and I got no hostility. I may be a newbie here, but I've been on enough other boards to have seen this issue before; it's just a natural consequence of message boards. I don't think you can really say he's "infringing on their rights" just by expressing his opinion more forcefully than you'd like him to; he's not stopping anyone else from expressing theirs, after all.

However, if you think the way he's stating his position is actually offensive to the point of making reasonable discussion impossible, then that might be the time to PM a mod. I don't personally think it's ever gotten to that point, but it's your call.

[toysailor]

Eh - what I meant to say was "abusing his rights" - I made the necessary amendment to avoid any controversy.

Thanks.

[kendrama]

Thanks.

For being a nosy busybody? Any time. ;D

So what's your take on this whole plot vs. comedy issue? I'm starting to feel like maybe it is a bad idea for something like a webcomic to take plot too seriously (not that I'll ever be convinced they don't need one at all, just that maybe trying to cram too much in is a mistake), whereas a comedic novel gets very, very dull after about page ten without one.

[6079smithw]

For being a nosy busybody? Any time. ;D

So what's your take on this whole plot vs. comedy issue? I'm starting to feel like maybe it is a bad idea for something like a webcomic to take plot too seriously (not that I'll ever be convinced they don't need one at all, just that maybe trying to cram too much in is a mistake), whereas a comedic novel gets very, very dull after about page ten without one.
Have you read Hitchhiker's Guide? Any PG Wodehouse?I would say there's quite a few exceptions to that.
Unless you mean no plot whatsoever, as opposed to a framework or meaningless plot.

[kendrama]

Have you read Hitchhiker's Guide?

I love Hitchhiker's Guide! ::) I would say it has a very strong plot, it's just not one that makes much sense to the rational part of the brain. ;D Have you read the Dirk Gently books (also by Douglas Adams)? Dirk is a "holistic detective," and he's always looking for the fundamental interconnectedness of all things. When you start to connect all the random bits and pieces in the Hitchhiker's Trillogy in the same way, the plot turns from silly to really amazing and insightful. (Or maybe that's just me? )

I haven't read P.G. Wodehouse, but I am a huge fan of Terry Pratchett, who has a similar semi-chaotic, hilariously funny writing style (he just uses fantasy instead of scifi). The thing is, most of his plots (and Douglas Adams', too) are completely character-driven, so the people involved are much more important than the actual events. That's actually the type of fiction I like best. ::)

[toysailor]

For being a nosy busybody? Any time. ;D

So what's your take on this whole plot vs. comedy issue? I'm starting to feel like maybe it is a bad idea for something like a webcomic to take plot too seriously (not that I'll ever be convinced they don't need one at all, just that maybe trying to cram too much in is a mistake), whereas a comedic novel gets very, very dull after about page ten without one.

lol if you're a busybody, everyone here is guilty of that sin too =p

About comedy VS plot - I would in fact *gasp* go with CasualGamer on this. Take a look at megatokyo:

http://www.megatokyo.com/

Ok - I see a strip full of pretty pictures but..... what the hell is going on? Go back a few strips and does the question resolve itself? Nope! In fact, you probably wouldn't know who's who and what's what unless you're willing to devote hours delving into the archives.

No madam - this doesn't work on the internet because of its usability - people are used to "surfing" the net, not getting bogged down with hours of looking at backlogs. Unless you're shojo manga fan, you are not likely to invest that time into MegaTokyo. And if you're a shojo manga fan... well, instead of waiting days for a few panels (i.e. agonizingly slow pace for a typical manga, which spans over hundreds of panels), you might be better off buying manga in the traditional book form.

IMHO, this is the beauty of OOTS. Although it has a distinct plot and narrative, each new strip has a joke you might understand on its own. The casual web-surfer might find it interesting, and thus look at the next strip... and before you know it - w00t! New fan of OOTS.

At the end of the day, plot is fine as long as there is something in each strip that is attention grabbing (doesn't have to be funny all the time; might be cool artwork, "awww" cutsey lovey dopey moments or whatever). Then, its all about pacing the plot with these funnies/cool art so people don't get lost for too long.

[Casualgamer]

Basically, you're taking the path of:

1. You have a right to express my opinion.
2. Forums are here for this purpose.
3. I am a hypocrite for slating you, for slating MT.

Yea ok, but when you're being hostile to basically almost everyone here with a different opinion, you are abusing your rights. I don't see how I'm being hypocritical in my first post when what I am criticizing you about has little to do with you posting your opinions, but rather the way in which you are making you making them known. I didn't state at anytime that I did not wish to read your "bitching"; but rather the overbearing way in which you are making them (re: Merciless, authoritative ****).

1. You bitch about MT. (Your right)
2. I bitch about you bitching. (My right)

How does this make me a hypocrite? To borrow your words:

"Let's pretend I like what your post. I'll STILL talk about the post's shortcomings. What ELSE am I supposed to talk about? How great the post is?"

Sure sounds stupid doesn't it?

Dude, when I said people could just lay off MegaTokyo if they hate it so much, I meant just that. Not talking about forums or freedom of speeches here since they are different avenues altogether. And on the basis of a wrong context, you had me pegged as a hypocrite.

Baby Jesus Cries.

I signed up for this forum last year. I have, to date, about 20-30 odd posts. The fact that such a long time lurker can finally be roused to comment on your posting style does mean something.

Think about it.

You call it hostility, I call it forcefulness.

I initially called you a hypocrit, because you claim that I should, in some way, lay off of MT because of the "like it or leave it" line of logic, and I'm saying that you shouldn't criticize me for similiar reasons, but I have come to understand what your complaining about.

However, if you wished to bring that up to me, I would have expected a regular to PM. You did not.

Kendra has already put it better than I ever could: I'm not stopping anyone from expressing their opinion, and as you can see from the pages long this thread is, people have done just that.

Do you come on these forums just to tell people that they're *****? No? Then don't post that sort of stuff in an entirely unrelated post.

Furthermore, I have not told you that you have no right to bitch about my bitching. I simply thought that you followed your own rules, but again, I have come to realize what you are taling about.

Finally, you have yet to answer how exactly you have the right to tell me to back off of the nonexistant little man that I appear to be raping. As I said earlier, the debate was essentially over.


EDIT: "Baby Jesus cries"? Mmmm, I love the smell of ethnocentrism in the morning. JK

[toysailor]

Eh, but you jump on their nuts for posting - and called them out on their opinions with "forcefulness" with alarming frequency. Maybe Kendra feels alright about it. Can't really blame others for "coming out to call you a ****".

I don't do PMs in such cases because it looks juvenile, writing notes to cuss people out.

And FYI I did not state (explicitly) in any post telling people to do certain things. They are but suggestions. Heck, I have not even (explicitly) called you a "****". It was implied that someone who does the stuff you did might come off as a **** to certain people.

So whatever man. I guess this is the best reconcilliatory post I can manage. You still appear to be one heck of an over-zealous freedom fighter to me.

Yea - you can quote me on that ^^^^^ if you want.

[kendrama]

Maybe Kendra feels alright about it.

Well, I can't say watching other people fight is my favorite thing, but so far it hasn't involved me personally, and I've seen much worse than this. In college I worked in the financial aid office; I've had names screamed in my face that I had to look up later, and that I know the board filters wouldn't like. This is just a bull session that got out of hand, not the end of the world. ;)


No madam - this doesn't work on the internet because of its usability - people are used to "surfing" the net, not getting bogged down with hours of looking at backlogs. Unless you're shojo manga fan, you are not likely to invest that time into MegaTokyo. And if you're a shojo manga fan... well, instead of waiting days for a few panels (i.e. agonizingly slow pace for a typical manga, which spans over hundreds of panels), you might be better off buying manga in the traditional book form.

Exactly! I do happen to be a huge shojo fan, and I did spend those hours wading through the archives, so I hear exactly what you're saying. (And speaking of an "agonizingly slow pace," waiting for each page to load took ten years off my life. :) )

Megatokyo does the shojo bits wonderfully, but I just don't know if it's something that can work in webcomic form (especially not with all of the baggage left from its days as a comedy, like Casualgamer said). We know Fred has a publisher; I wish, in my fangirlish way, that there was some way for him to publish a shojo Megatokyo-based book series through them, and change the web form back in the other direction. I'm not naive enough to think it's ever gonna happen, if only because Fred would probably drop dead of exhaustion, but I can dream!!! ::)

[Midnight Son]

I'm not a Shojo fan. I have no idea what Shojo even is. I did, however, go through the entire comic from start to finish in one weekend when I first came across MT. I agree that the author does seem to wander aimlessly from time to time. During these, it can be very hard to follow what's going on. I'll be enjoying the story line and suddenly the comic's talking about something else that seems to have come from out of the blue. He eventually explains what's going on though, so I'm not worried about it. I still enjoy the comic(except when Dom does his little stick thingies).

[Brickwall]

You call it hostility, I call it forcefulness.


So, us saying your arguments are bad is "hostile and offensive", while your constant accusations of us giving you personal insults is "forcefulness"?

We will call it what we want. Hostility. And when you intentionally put an opinion up to be debated, don't expect us all to come to agreement with you. As you said at the bottom of post #1:


What do you think?

[Casualgamer]

So, us saying your arguments are bad is "hostile and offensive", while your constant accusations of us giving you personal insults is "forcefulness"?

We will call it what we want. Hostility. And when you intentionally put an opinion up to be debated, don't expect us all to come to agreement with you. As you said at the bottom of post #1:



When did I say I ever wanted everyone to agree with me?

And again, I never asked you to call it anything, I just let you know my point of view.

[Brickwall]

Question:

If you didn't want people to agree with your point of view, why do you continually make arguments like these?

[Casualgamer]

I argue as a form of entertainment. The objective is not to convince the other side (as this is practically an impossible goal online) but to win the argument.

I win either way. I get to revel in the feeling of having crushed the opposition if I win, I gain an object of admiration and respect if I do not.

Also, as my friend's WoW guild leader put it "The more you cry, the more aroused we become". Listening to people whine is a great way to let off steam.

[Brickwall]

If you are getting aroused by this argument, it brings a WHOLE NEW LEVEL of wrongness to this forum.

[Casualgamer]

Heh, I never said sexually.

;D

And I didn't mean it literally, but I do feel GREAT when I 1)make someone lose their cool (happens unintentionally most of the time, I can't fathom why...) 2) crush someone's argument.

It's an intellectual high. Eh, not really, but you get the point.

EDIT: Why are YOU here, haven't we settled this?

[Brickwall]

Hey, I said we settled my point of contention. I don't have anything to gain from this other than the excitement of the argument.

Yes, you're not the only one here who argues for fun.

[The Giant]

The Voice of Mod: I see multiple flames and no real topic left except acknowledgements of enjoying flamebaiting people.

This thread is locked. People should expect official warnings in their PM box soon.

[dejawolf]

50% of the people in this thread is a bunch of spoiled crybabies.
face it, we've all had too much of the good stuff, and as such, have become snobbish, and gluttonous.

[Turcano]

You should know, the spell animate thread has an [evil] descriptor.