need gm-proof build

[Ethernil]

Hello fellow playgrounders, this is my second time posting abot a character build in these forums, first of all i would like to thank the people who spent time answering my questions on the last one.
Now, lets get to the point: this will be my third longterm game in dnd, in the first one i played rogue and hated it cause the dm rulled 1 sneak attack per round and under special unaware circumstances, replaced most social skills ith roleplaying(my points were wasted) and changed dcs of certain skills like riding to make them more "fun" in his own twisted mind (dc 15 for normal ride, really?). In my second game following advice i received in this forum i run a scout ranger swithunter with a bazilion acfs and it was good and fun(maybe i should have even picked wild shape but bow and finesse melee was more than enjyable).
In general, the gm has magic items rare in the early to mid game and abundant in late, although most of it is of limited usefulllnes and high price to explain why the dragon didnt have anything worth using. He had disabled attacks of oportunity to make the game simpler as he said, the other guys and i pushe him to change that cause he was constantly slaughtrring us with caster bbegs. Also he gives us only small chance of searching for specific magic items like a hat of disguise in even capital cities.


What i m searching for is a build that is not heavily gear dependant, does not use sneak attack as it is nerfed and i can use classes fromall official books except psionics and books nt meant for the player like masters of horror. The group already has a cleric and a wizard, we might get a 4th guy depending on his free time schedule, i dunno what he wants to play. I m thinking of playing something along the lines of binder, warlock, incarnate, warblade or some skillmonkey you can give me that can actually fight instead of sit back and scratch enemies with his shortbow. Online sources like factotum font of inspiration are off so are skills like iaijutsu focus and autohypnosis as the gm calls them setting specific, oh we play in faerun.

[torrasque666]

Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer. I'd say wizard but your DM seems like the kind of one that'll go after your spell book.

[AvatarVecna]

I have bad news and good news. The bad news is that there's no such thing as a DM-Proof Build: even Pun-Pun is incapable of ignoring Plot Armor, Banhammers, and DM Fiat, it's just part of the game. The good news is, what might do the trick is a build that's overpowered, but doesn't look overpowered; a DM that passes a broken build by is a DM that can't nerf the broken build; the most basic of subtly powerful builds are super-buffers.

I suggest some kind of War Weaver build; War Weaver lets you cast a single-target buff spell into your "spell weave" and have it affect the entire party. As long as you avoid the most overpowered kind of spells when doing this (like Polymorphing the entire party into Cyrohydras, which is a thing it can do), it should fly under the radar. You'll want to take a look through the War Weaver handbook if you go this route, though. Even better, because it technically loses a caster level, casual optimizers will think it's less powerful than full caster builds (it is, but only if you allow higher-op super-casters, which I doubt your DM would allow).

[Gildedragon]

an easybake wizard might be good for you (no book to be vulnerable; nothing but you and your spells)

a swordsage is very 1 attack per round but has a number of abilities on hand.

factotums can be very DM proof; though they do draw the sight quickly because they can do all sorts of things; and with skill DCs going up on a whim...

artificer can be... handy in a campaign with low magic items, but like the factotum: easy to draw the DM's eye.

Warlock: straightforward damage, some utility, and can make magic items

Binder: varied abilities, meaning that if the DM nerfs something you pick another playstyle, can do a bit of everything, works well thematically and mechanically with warlock

Totemist: system looks confusing (which may be a problem if the DM nerfs what they don't understand) but it can be pretty varied and is very damage oriented.

[Ethernil]

In the first game i played i tried playing factotum into chameleon, i was inexperienced and the crazy amount of options got me confused, not to mention i was expecting to deal damage with iaijutsu etc which i had read in some handbooks. In factotum what irked me was that he casts few spells and even worse he can't prepare the same spell twice. I put stat scores wrong which lead to a very weird and weak chameleon, i should have focused either on melee arcane or melee divine as i found generalization sucks. Two weapon fighting is a feat tax and doesn't help without a bonus damage on hit. The gm talked me out of playing with a spiked chain as he found it being a weird weapon although i wanted to play with one, kinda like agile characters in martial arts movies in my mind, maybe with a few self buffs or utility spells like grease. By the time factotum was starting to get playable i picked the prestige that set me back, then the gm offered me to reroll into a rogue without mentioning the sneak attack houserules(he calls it canon since he is influenced by 2nd eddition).

Maybe a pure factotum with a lvl of master of masks for gladiator mask would make an interesting gish skillmonkey, but it will still be weak in combat. 3 lvls of swashbuckler help with int to damage boost and free weapon finesse, also a bab and fort boost.

I ve been itching to try binder ever since i read the book, he seems all kind of awesome, like chameleon but better. Just a bit weak in the first few lvls where geting locked for the day with the wrong vestige will be punishing. And as you mentioned he cant nerf every aspect of the class, mostly i believe he ll veto the online vestiges and that doesn't concern me much, i don't want to be campaign breaking strong. So either into knight of the sacred shield and a power attack melee build or if i can get it to fly anima mage with warlock instead of other arcane caster.
I imagine the binder at high lvls a bit like ironman, sumoning savnok armor, then using the other vestige that grants air burst attacks from your palms :).

I m not very familiar with incarnum i just had many people urging me to try it for my previous game.

I get it the strongest thing i can play is a druid, with just plain phb he is very strong and even if the dm nerfs something he will still either have a fighter for a pet or be able to change into a beast that can handle the fight on it's own or cast spells on par with the cleric or even wizard. For some reason that i can't explain i don't like playing what most ppl play or what is considered the strongest option in pc rpgs.

I failed to mention that the game starts at lvl 1 an will prolly drag into the low epics.

[Doctor Despair]

Take bard for 20 levels, with three bloodline levels. Support someone else for a while -- take subsonics, disguise spell, lyric spell, words of creation, and then, at level 21, take Music of the Gods.

You will have utility all game, but late game you will be able to cast any arcane spell you know with the mind-affecting descriptor and have it work on things otherwise immune to it. Subsonics even lets you use bardic music on things that otherwise couldn't hear you! This means that you can, for example, use Celebration to make a deaf zombie drunk. Early and mid-game utility, late-game power house, all-game fun.

[BearonVonMu]

To bounce off of Doctor Despair's idea, possibly try a buffing sorcerer. I'm a fan of the Arcane Sage class variant.
Don't take any spells that cause direct damage, or an absolute minimum of them. Instead, fill your list with buffing spells and make your allies as powerful as possible. Take communal magic circle against evil, invisibility, maybe a few save-or-sucks to give you some attack power, like glitterdust.
This works best in a party that focuses on physical attacks, and regardless of how much power you bring to the table, you can point to the damage charts, which would show you did no damage at all.
Craft magic items for your allies: get them to buy scrolls of Cat's Grace and make them gloves. Half cost for stat ups!
It's a different spin is all: to be completely under the radar because you yourself did nothing, merely allowed you allies to be amazing.

[Flickerdart]

Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer. I'd say wizard but your DM seems like the kind of one that'll go after your spell book.

Druid relies heavily on having Monster Manual access, which is not a player book and thus questionable under the OP's terms. Druids also share a weakness with clerics - a DM that's out for blood can take away your powers for vague god-related reasons. Sorcerers, comparatively, are self-reliant and thus the safer choice.

[Segev]

High-cheese warning: Is Lords of Madness "not meant for PCs?" (I can guarantee you that the Beholder MAge, which I am suggesting a build for here, is not intended for PCs, but nothing says so, if the book's allowed...so the question is whether the book's allowed and you can get the build past your DM.)

The build is somewhat odd: you start as an Elan Psion for 5 levels. (There are cheesier entry methods than this, but this one doesn't "look" like an early entry, and doesn't rely on questionable double-casting of PAO.) Take Metamorphic Transfer as a feat. Pay a high-level wizard to polymorph any object you into a Beholder. As an Elan with intelligence above 18, this is permanent. Metamorphic Transfer gives you 3 uses each of anti-magic eye and eyebeams. Never use eyebeams, and sacrifice the anti-magic eye to qualify for Beholder Mage.

Sacrifice eye stalks into spell stalks as you level for levels 1 and 2. Switch over to Cerebremancer after level 2 so you can advance Psion as well as Beholder Mage; keep sacrificing eyestalks to spell stalks. Never use the eyestalks power so you always have it to sacrifice.



This is high cheese. It probably won't be allowed.

[Telonius]

It sounds like you enjoy mixing it up in melee more than spellcasting. I'd suggest something with high survivability: maybe a Bard/Warblade or Bard/Crusader multiclass? Crusaders in particular are famously hard to kill, and could help out the Cleric a bit with some secondary healing (freeing up spells for him to blast the enemy or buff your party). Bard4/(Warblade or Crusader)16 is usually the standard for that sort of character. Load up on White Raven maneuvers; Song of the White Raven is the obvious feat that ties it together.

[LTwerewolf]

The only completely DM-proof build is truenamer 19/monk 1 with no ranks in truename and only metamagic feats. Anything a DM does to you would make you stronger.

[ATHATH]

The only completely DM-proof build is truenamer 19/monk 1 with no ranks in truename and only metamagic feats. Anything a DM does to you would make you stronger.
Actually, I think that Aristocrat 20 is worse than that build.

EDIT: Nevermind, Aristocrat wouldn't be allowed due to being in a book that's "not for players".

[eggynack]

Druid. A DM can apply tons of direct nerfs, and alter the situation in ways they consider detrimental to the druid (urban setting, book restrictions, or, as you note, few magic items), and you'll do just fine. It’s very difficult to construct a universe where druids are bad, cause doing so takes a massive amount of bans and/or houserules. You're not DM proof, but you’re the closest thing to it. And no, ditching monster sources isn't sufficient, cause spells are still a thing.

Edit: The big problem with sorcs is that you have limited ways to adapt. Get your easily visible list nerfed, or get placed in situations where it's weak, and you have limited recourse. A druid can just swap lists. Also, the only ways to lose druid stuff are rather narrow in scope and we'll defined. You mostly just have to maintain reverence for nature, and that's really up to you rather than the DM.

[icefractal]

One thing about Druid - if the DM is being a stickler in other ways, he'll probably enforce 'familiarity' for Wildshape too, and not allow Knowledge(nature) to qualify.

That said, you can still be summon/casting focused and be plenty effective. However, Druid does raise the possibility that the DM will push a nature-based code of conduct on you, if he's inclined to such things.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Adamantine plated warforged crusader, no further options (well, pick your feats anyway). Infamously hard to kill, and you can always mix in a bit of bard, or cleric/RKV, if you want spell support (although mind the ASF on adamantine plating).

[Ethernil]

Bard crusader sounds close to what i m looking for, though it seems to suffer from mad, we roll for stats. He shut down warforged and shifter as we play in a different setting but he is ok with changeling as it is in the monster manual and isnt anything op. Generally he ll give me hell with social intractions with weird races like dragonborn. He considered ppl understood i was a rogue by my outfit and they didnt like me much for it. He is also ok with artificer but i dunno if i want to bookkeep so much. Since we have a wizard and a cleric i want to play something at least a bit durable and not to overlap with primary arcane or divine caster.

[ExLibrisMortis]

but he is ok with changeling as it is in the monster manual and isnt anything op.
If that is the problem, warforged are in MM3. But it sounds like this DM's 'no' is not subject to debate.

[MisterKaws]

Tibbit Unarmed Swordsage, slap everything with Insightful Strike.

[Ethernil]

The gm clearly has no clue of balance, his favorite class is cleric and doesnt think that cleri or wizard are op. He adds stats and abilities to monsters without increasing their cr because he thinks its ok. When enemy humanoid oponents have some powerfull items they either get destroyed or blocked by an earthuake colapsing the cave or when we get them he gives us a watered down version o makes them evil aligned. For a big part of the first campaign the enemy cleric slash lieutenant slash boss of the first chapter had a cloak that cast instant teleport witout error and he could take up to 4 allies with him robbing us of our main loot aftr we had cleared the mooks and damaged heavily their champions. Thats why i m looking into crafting(warlock, factotum artificer chameleon maybe even binder as i see can do it to some extent). About finding magic items i got my first +2 to dex item, a ring at lvl 8, at lvl 12 i got a +4 ring and at 15 a +4 gloves. He gave me an armor with +4 charisma and some abilities meant for paladins, he prolly rippped a paladin armor from somebook, made it light and change the name and he said: have you any idea how expensive this is? Well it is worse than my previous +2 that gave me +5 to hide and 2/day hide in plain sight and even if i sell it he wont let me find to buy anything really apropriate for lvl 23 or at least a half useful armor. Only really good item i ever found was a +4 manual of coonstitution from the boss that got us into epc lvls. I fear that bard crusader is gona run into gear prolems as we never got more than +2 saving through capes, never got any protection items like fear stun or mindblank protection and the only flying item we ever found was a ring ith 1 casting of 5 mins fly per day. We were a group of 2, rogue temple raider and fighter stonelord. With the swift hunter i had isssues mostly with not having utility items like belt of battle, a means to fly etc but the wizard and cleric could help there.
As someone guessed i like playing into melee, not blasting from distance so i dont want to have to turn tail when i get hit one and get to 20% hp. I dont mean i want to melee stuff like umber hulks, ther are ocasions i could use a bow or some rangec ability. But i also like having magic or supernatural abilities. I like the nature flavor, i did on the ranger but for some reason druid doesnt feel like what i want. I found fochulcan lyrist very interesting but it seems i ll be weak for the first 10 lvls and that sucks.

[LTwerewolf]

No gaming is better than bad gaming: vote with your feet and leave. A dm like that is going to ruin your day regardless of what you pick. I had a similar dm once and I decided to start item crafting. He sent people after me to prevent me from ever having the time to do it. When that didn't work, he straight took my spellcasting away.

[Crake]

Take bard for 20 levels, with three bloodline levels. Support someone else for a while -- take subsonics, disguise spell, lyric spell, words of creation, and then, at level 21, take Music of the Gods.

You will have utility all game, but late game you will be able to cast any arcane spell you know with the mind-affecting descriptor and have it work on things otherwise immune to it. Subsonics even lets you use bardic music on things that otherwise couldn't hear you! This means that you can, for example, use Celebration to make a deaf zombie drunk. Early and mid-game utility, late-game power house, all-game fun.

I think what you consider "late game" (level 21), most people call "post game".

[ChrissP]

:smallamused::smallamused: I will thinking

[Ethernil]

The thing is there are extremely few ppl who play RPGs where I live and it is hard to find a party, especially a dm

[iceman10058]

i suggest leaving that group and doing a play by post here. honestly the dm is beimg a tyrant and trying to control the game poorly, and that means no one but him will have any fun.

[Ethernil]

The fact that he uses his own npcs to save the day or hides rolls with the screen for that purpose doesn't make the game any more fun.

[ATHATH]

By the way, if you decide to be a Cleric for one reason or another, there's a practically DM-proof god in one of the Dragon Magazines called the Oversoul. His fluff is that he created the universe to learn more about himself, and he is everything and vice versa. In other words, Clerics of the Oversoul worship existence/the universe. An important thing to note about him is that he accepts Clerics and worshippers of all alignments, and views them as different aspects of himself (even Antipaladins, who he considered to be his "Chaotic side" ore something). These factors make it nearly impossible for a Cleric of the Oversoul to fall. He could slaughter everyone in one of the Oversoul's temples, defecate on the altar there, loudly proclaim to the world that you hate the Oversoul and everything he stands for, then open a bunch of planar breaches to the Far Realms or the Plane of Void, and the Oversoul would be totally cool with it. "Ah, you must represent my Defiant/Entropic side. Would you like some more spells?"

[Hal0Badger]

Suggest DM'ing a short adventure. Not so hard to learn basic combat rules. Maybe he will change his ways after seeing a better gameplay, also DM'ing is fun.

If all else fails, try roll20.net

I play there, 3 games per week and I DM one of them. Pretty neat site.

[Ethernil]

Ok when i put the "i walk away" card on the table followed by another player who was dissatisfied who said the same the dm decided to make the game more democratic and now we prety much get to vote for what to change.

I will give that online rpg site a try for sure thx for the info.

I am actually designing a campaign, i got 3 second edition modules starting with temple of elemental evil and am converting them to fit 3.5, i ve read enough of the rule books to be able to say that i now know the game much better than our current dm.

We actually got the Lone Wolf rpg books and are definitaly going to play that, i was playing the solo rpg books by that company when i was still in elementary school.

So i m still looking for a build for 3.5 with the same dm but with much better rules :)

If we didn't have a cleric i would probably go warlock into eldritch disciple, i totally dig the flavor and the class seems awesome, prety much what i wana do: a character fighting mostly in melee range with selfbuffs etc with some ranged capabilities for when needed. Warlock into eldritch theurge also wouldn't be nice thx to having a wizard who plans on going Archmage, he ll outshine me in prety much everything. Warlock into sentinel of Baarhai with maybe a binder dip and hellfire warlock ? still thats only pure blasting, no skill monkeying or utility spells.

I m still mostly sold for either a factotum, a binder, a ranger-master of many forms or some incarnate, although the last one seems really really complicated. Basically since i dunno if we ll have the 4th guy playing i need to cover skill monkeying and front-line or semi-frontline along with the cleric so the batman can do his thing from behind. I played a scout-ranger-dervish-tempest in the last game, didn't have spells but with all the defensive buffs from skirmish, dervish dance etc i could tank prety well while doing some VERY good damage and i had many skills to do stuff outside combat.

I totally forgot about beguiler, seems like a very fun skill monkey but i doubt he ll be able to frontlike past lvl 3 or so and i m gona have to make some weird gymnastics if i actually want to do any kind of damage in combat, i know illusions and enchantments can be far more powerfull ending an encounter instantly but we already have a wizard for that job. I tried to find a build with beguiler and master of masks but that thing is only going to make me weaker, only prestige class that actually adds combat prowess is shadowcraft mage, and i dont really want to play a gnome or take 3 lvls in another prestige to qualify for gnome prestige classes. The dm said be is much more accepting but i doubt the table would accept cheese like rainbow servant, i wouldn't myself.

[ATHATH]

Have you considered taking the Divine Crusader PrC?

[Sahleb]

This is fun. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471372-Weekly(-)-Optimization-Showcase-Holy-Fire-(Tempest_Stormwind))

Just burn everything to cinders. If it's fire immune, burn it anyway. Doesn't frontline well though.

Honestly, I'd just make a warblade. They're pretty good at skills, and not too reliant on magic items.

[Ethernil]

Hmm factotum 3 warblade 17 or bard 3 crusader 17 both look promising and prety close to what i m looking for. Can a bard crusader go into jade phoenix mage? Not having high lvl spells shouldnt be a heavy handicap for a gish. Although i prefer the warblade mostly because i don't like the crusader random maneuver mechanic.

3 lvls of uncanny trickster can make a binder a good trapfinder skillmonkey it seems.

[Ethernil]

Ugh so many options i can't make up my mind. In simpler words what is the most fun but still viable tank-like gish or skillmonkey gish i can make. It has to be fun throughout the characters career not suffer for the first 10 lvls and then go op.

[Amphetryon]

Ugh so many options i can't make up my mind. In simpler words what is the most fun but still viable tank-like gish or skillmonkey gish i can make. It has to be fun throughout the characters career not suffer for the first 10 lvls and then go op.

Given your parameters, I'd go slightly off normal CharOp recommendations and suggest Whisper Gnome Swordsage 2/Wu Jen 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Fortune's Friend 5. Note that this loses more Spellcasting levels than is generally advised for a Gish. This produces a reasonably tanky skillmonkey Gish with enough re-rolls to offset some BAB deficiencies and potential DM shenanigans, and the ability to substitute static damage increases (such as Knowledge Devotion and Blood In the Water stance) for the houseruled Precision Damage nerf.

[Ethernil]

Thx for all the advice, don't punch me but i decided to tone down the character's combat prowess to make him more fun to me to play, quite a bit.

I m going to play a changeling rogue 5 - warshaper 5 - cabinet trickster 5 - mindspy 5, with a potential reduction of warshaper to 4 lvls and geting a single lvl dip on warlock, or binder or whatever. Obviously i m gona alternate between prestige classes while lvling up. Skillmonkey? - check, interesting character? - check, can do something when left naked in a cold cell? -check. Our games are RP heavy so i think the gm might like me role-playing this and give me more power in terms of items if he sees me struggling.

The combat idea is to use mind spying abilities for social reasons and before combat and cabinet trickster stun as a swift action so that i can proceed to sneak attacking my target to my heart's content. Warshaper for str-con boost, imunities, reach and some natural weapons to fall back to when i m in a pinch.

[Seppo87]

Sorcerer into Shadowcraft Mage
Sorcerer means no spellbook required.
SCM means no expensive components are required.
Consider Eschew Materials, Still Spell and Silent Spell.
Go and rock everything. You're unstoppable.
Even if you were caught, bound and muffled, and your equipment was stolen, you'd still have all the power you needed to fight back.

Option B:

Sacred Fist with Vow of Poverty. Make sure to choose your domains well, to cover as many situations as possible.
Such a build is pretty much unstoppable. You'll never reach the high floors of optimization, but it will also be impossible to bring you down to irrelevance.

[Fizban]

Seems that threat of walking may have restored sanity, we'll see if it lasts though.

On the subject of Clerics that can't fall, do note that Clerics have absolutely no need for a deity, right there in the PHB (unless I missed that being a house-rule). I like the neutral/neutral Cleric of Pride and Luck domains, you do what you want because you can.

On the subject of nigh-unstoppable, there are of course psionics. All the independence of a sorcerer with no components of any sort, though both suffer from the sleep requirement.

[Ethernil]

We already got a guy deadset on going cleric(he played a fighter stonelord planar champion last game so he deserves something better anyway). Now of the other 2 possible team members 1 is going either wizard or some kind of paladin and the other i really dont know. If we wont have a wizard i am certainly going whisper gnome beguiler into shadowcraft mage with a 1lvl dip of mindbender to cover both skillmonkey and arcane caster. Now if the undecided guy goes some roguey class as he likes that stuff and we actually have a wizard i see myself as warblade crusader eternal blade snow elf with a lockdown feat build as i m pretty sure the dm will rule the ubercharger damage modifiers to apply only on the first strike of the full attack after the leap.