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[magicalmagicman]

edit: Troacctid killed the build. Back to the drawing build

[Gildedragon]

what level are you starting at?

since you have to solo so much... maybe something like Shadowcraft Mage to make one spell you got do multiple duty for a lot of spells

[magicalmagicman]

what level are you starting at?

since you have to solo so much... maybe something like Shadowcraft Mage to make one spell you got do multiple duty for a lot of spells

Ah you responded while I was editing that information in. We are starting at level 1.

Cannot qualify for shadowcraft mage. My character maxed out on feats, so can't afford to not be human in addition to grabbing spell focus: illusion. In addition, multiclass penalty also forces me to be human. That's why I'm sorcerer 9! Not enough feats to grab a prestige class!

[Gildedragon]

Ah you responded while I was editing that information in. We are starting at level 1.

I see.

Races of the Dragon: Dragonblood Sorcerer sub levels seem pretty good as it nets you UMD as a class skill; you might need that

if you're open to going the shadow magic route you should gun for early entry to be working with shadow beings ASAP

[Ger. Bessa]

Ancestral relic can ensure you get the runestaff you need when you need it, because it's even harder to craft a runestaff as a sorcerer (you'd need so many scrolls...). I admit it clashes with your Item creation. Then, you can put magic circle 1/day and dim lock 1/day or whatever on it...

Why wait this late for prestige classe entry ? What are the specs of your cleric dip ? Why no other prc instead of vanilla sorcerer 9 ? You could get Ruathar at lv5-7, SCM at 5-9 by retraining precocious apprentice and fiery burst, Incantatrix with Otyugh hole iron will for free meatamagic feats (and that's the feat only).

What about retraining ? Pick another Item creation feat earlier then swap later if you can. Also swap precocious and fiery burst.

What do you get from Dweomerkeeper? Why so late ? Do you think you can not pay the ally with extraordinary spell ?

And again, what do you get from cleric ? Have you thought of Southern Magician + Divine disciple to get divine spells + magic domain without loosing CL ?

[magicalmagicman]

Ancestral relic can ensure you get the runestaff you need when you need it, because it's even harder to craft a runestaff as a sorcerer (you'd need so many scrolls...). I admit it clashes with your Item creation. Then, you can put magic circle 1/day and dim lock 1/day or whatever on it...

Why wait this late for prestige classe entry ? What are the specs of your cleric dip ? Why no other prc instead of vanilla sorcerer 9 ? You could get Ruathar at lv5-7, SCM at 5-9 by retraining precocious apprentice and fiery burst, Incantatrix with Otyugh hole iron will for free meatamagic feats (and that's the feat only).

What about retraining ? Pick another Item creation feat earlier then swap later if you can. Also swap precocious and fiery burst.

What do you get from Dweomerkeeper? Why so late ? Do you think you can not pay the ally with extraordinary spell ?

And again, what do you get from cleric ? Have you thought of Southern Magician + Divine disciple to get divine spells + magic domain without loosing CL ?

My DM severely frowns upon retraining. He allows it but needs a good reason for it. He doesn't want everyone to batman wizard their feats and such. Keeping precocious apprentice isn't so bad, as I need to have it to have combust in my spells known so I don't have to learn a new fire spell for fiery burst.

My DM also severely frowns upon Forgotten realms and eberron stuff, as the setting is greyhawk. Incantatrix is Forgotten Realms. He actually hates forgotten realms with a passion, saying everything in there is overpowered as hell.

My DM also severely frowns upon regional stuff, as this setting is an original kingdom and is quite harsh. I can try to grab ruathar but only if I encounter and help elves. Southern magician is out, hence the cleric dip. Samething with Otyugh hole. My cleric level is just a regular cleric with magic and creation domain. Deityless. It truly exists solely to qualify me for dweomerkeeper, and lets me cast cure/inflict wounds to heal myself and my minions. Creation domain is fluff. I gotta be fanatical about it if I am to be deityless, and I plan on creating minions so...

I'm going dweomerkeeper solely for supernatural spells. That ability just makes me so happy, and I'm getting it late to push off the cleric dip as long as possible, as it does absolutely nothing for me except qualify me for dweomerkeeper. Supernatural Spell + Limited wish = endless possibilities, like free permanency, animate dead, access to every 6th level or lower sorcerer spell all with standard casting time, HEALING SPELLS, etc. And once I get wish or gate... hehehehehehe. Oh and simulacrum. Supernatural Spell + Simulacrum = free ultra powerful minions! Of course, I will restrain myself in order to not break the game. The one minion limit is a self-imposed restriction in order to have a fun time.

I'm sorcerer 9 because look at my feats! No room to qualify for more PrCs, except the ones you mentioned that I can't guarantee due to the fluff.

Ancestral relic is a great find! I might actually push off craft wondrous item to level 12 and sacrifice 2 Dweomerkeeper levels for it. Has to be level 9, the custom runestaff I want is 14300gp. I never planned on crafting the runestaff, I planned on buying it or commissioning an NPC to make it, if I have the gp or is in a large city at the time that is, hence "lucky".

[Kelb_Panthera]

You want to put minions to use and aren't even considering the summon monster spells? You do remember that you get to swap spells out, periodically, as you level? Pick up the summon monster spells and swap them out with the other things on your list except for the highest level one you have until you hit planar binding. Maybe even keep a summon monster at your highest level as a "just in case" option after you have your bound minion.

The summons aren't -great- as melee combatants but many of them get SLA's and that represents a significant expansion of your available magical effects and better spamming capability since some of those are at-will SLA's. The full-round casting time sucks but it is what it is since you can't squeeze rapid spell in there.

[magicalmagicman]

You want to put minions to use and aren't even considering the summon monster spells? You do remember that you get to swap spells out, periodically, as you level? Pick up the summon monster spells and swap them out with the other things on your list except for the highest level one you have until you hit planar binding. Maybe even keep a summon monster at your highest level as a "just in case" option after you have your bound minion.

The summons aren't -great- as melee combatants but many of them get SLA's and that represents a significant expansion of your available magical effects and better spamming capability since some of those are at-will SLA's. The full-round casting time sucks but it is what it is since you can't squeeze rapid spell in there.

I've truly, truly considered SMIII and SMIV, but in my past experiences, they're too weak. You have to cast them in combat, several times in combat, and they drop like flies while dealing pitiful damage, and that 1 round casting time is absolutely FATAL. I'm relying on my immediate actions for survival here like spell shield and wings of cover. Anyways, black tentacles is like a summon spell right? ;D

I MIGHT grab a summon monster spell so I can grab the summon elemental reserve feat and prepare it heightened. A lot of people don't know that you can summon a max-hd elemental of its size. XD.

I tried SMI and SMII in the past and the results were absolutely horrendous.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've truly, truly considered SMIII and SMIV, but in my past experiences, they're too weak. You have to cast them in combat, several times in combat, and they drop like flies while dealing pitiful damage, and that 1 round casting time is absolutely FATAL. I'm relying on my immediate actions for survival here like spell shield and wings of cover. Anyways, black tentacles is like a summon spell right? ;D

I MIGHT grab a summon monster spell so I can grab the summon elemental reserve feat and prepare it heightened. A lot of people don't know that you can summon a max-hd elemental of its size. XD.

I tried SMI and SMII in the past and the results were absolutely horrendous.

SM 1 and 2 are pretty weak sauce, generally, but they still serve their purpose. Every hit directed at the summoned minions is an attack not focused on you or your permanent allies.

The SM 1 options are mostly pretty trash. They're basically just mobile, ablative HP's. Instructing them to fight defensively or to use readied actions to interpose themselves between you and your enemies can make them more effective tools than to just have them charge to their death but they can still soak a hit or two.

SM 2, however, has the giant bombardier beetle. 5 rounds of a mobile cone of acid dispenser for one spell slot is not a bad option. It's only 3-6 points of damage each round but it ignores SR. There's also the option to conjure 1d3 SM 1 critters; flanking and the ability to soak multiple attacks instead of just the one.

Come SM 3, the huge centipede is actually a solid melee combatanat. So is the wolverine. There's also a few grapplers in there and a hippogriff is a fly spell with an extra set of actions. Then there's the 2-5 little nothings from SM1 option. They don't get cleared quickly and can coordinate to make them much more threatening than they might otherwise be.

SM 4 offers the mephits. End of freakin' story.

The point is that SM isn't a direct offensive option most of the time. It's a method of harrying the foe and getting him to waste actions while you and your permanent allies do the things that will -win- the fight.

It's a solid set of spells if you know how to work with it. It's just not the figurative guided missiles that some other spells might be. I can't deny that they -are- a lot better when you're not sacking an entire round to each casting though.

[Ger. Bessa]

I repost the same question because I don't understand why you wait so late for Dweomerkeeper. You say that you are feat starved, but you waste FOUR feats for that fiery burst, not counting Eschew material.

You pick Arcane preparation for getting +1d6 on your burst at level 6. That's like, lame...

Can't you pick better than creation ? There are far better domains, some of them granting metamagic feats (planning). Heighten is a metamagic feat, but its only use seems to be to power fiery burst. You really could pick what you need to enter Dweomerkeer as a sor4/cle1 and then be far more relaxed with your choices.

I don't think you can combine Versatile spellcaster with arcane preparation to "cheat" higher level 'fiery burst' (sigh...).

Lastly, do you know that Dweomerkeeper is a FR class ? It's the class for clerics of Mystra. It has been reprinted in CD sup/ but it's undoubtly FR. Or do your DM allows Red Mage (since it's printed in the DMG) ?

My advice : stay at 2d6 burst, pick a item creation at 3, cleric with magic/planning at 5 and Dweomerkeeper 6->15. Mantle of spells lets you pick then forget a spell as a sorcerer. Ancestral relic at 6 and spells known are no longer an issue (but you're 2 levels behind a wizard, bad for a "summoner").

Also, ancestral relic requires good. Hop it fits in your plans.

[magicalmagicman]

Yeah summon monster IV is very versatile. I'll make note of it on my domain wizard conjuration, but I think black tentacles would do more for my sorcerer and our party in our situation :)

Anyways I want to be a creator, hence my other threads about permanency animated objects, simulacrums, etc. Summon monster's short duration doesn't make me feel like a creator. I will most likely get craft construct and craft a greater stone golem or a max hd iron golem at higher levels. Best thing about golems is that you only need to cast their requisite spells once at the end, which is where limited wish and wish come in :).

[Bronk]

Yeah summon monster IV is very versatile. I'll make note of it on my domain wizard conjuration, but I think black tentacles would do more for my sorcerer and our party in our situation :)

Anyways I want to be a creator, hence my other threads about permanency animated objects, simulacrums, etc. Summon monster's short duration doesn't make me feel like a creator. I will most likely get craft construct and craft a greater stone golem or a max hd iron golem at higher levels. Best thing about golems is that you only need to cast their requisite spells once at the end, which is where limited wish and wish come in :).

If you're going to wait until high levels to make your golem, you might as well skip the feat and just wish one up, or at worst, wish up the body, then wish up a golem manual. Depending on what level you are, that might only take up half of your free wishes for the day.

You might want to look at the 'summon ice beast' spells from Frostburn too, they basically call up an ice construct version of the 'summon monster' spells. The bigger they are, the more bonus HP they get from being a construct, and the more HD they have, the better their cone of cold ability gets.

[ahenobarbi]

Have you considered playing a druid instead? You could start having buffable minions from level 1 instead of spending half of the game just surviving, waiting to become able to do what you want (+surviving will be easier).

[Mr Adventurer]

You don't need Arcane Preparation - just take a Fire spell of your highest level and use Versatile Spellcaster so you never run out

[Norin]

If available drop Human and go for Silverbrow Human (DrM) instead.

You keep your bonus feat and get to be dragonblooded.

This is important for your ability to use Wings of Cover on your party members as well as yourself. Improves your survivability.

Special: A dragonblooded character, or a character with the dragon type, can provide cover for one additional adjacent ally for every three caster levels.

In my opinion, as a sorcerer, you should not focus all your spells towards Planar Binding. Maybe get some scrolls for your utility when doing your binding?

[Malroth]

Charm Person + Diplomacy at Lv 1 to befriend and reform some random bandit or orc at lv 1 who you then hire at fair wages to be a bodyguard, replace as needed with knocked out survivors from enemy goons as needed.

once you can cast 2nd lv arcane spells grab command undead and go steal yourself some zombies, paying an evil cleric to create them for you if necessary

[magicalmagicman]

I repost the same question because I don't understand why you wait so late for Dweomerkeeper. You say that you are feat starved, but you waste FOUR feats for that fiery burst, not counting Eschew material.

You pick Arcane preparation for getting +1d6 on your burst at level 6. That's like, lame...
Well, I kind of have to maybe solo a few fights all the way up to level 11, so fiery burst was what I thought would be my solution to all this. Fly up in the sky, throw stinking cloud/black tentacles at casters and archers, and blast them to death with fire.




Can't you pick better than creation ? There are far better domains, some of them granting metamagic feats (planning). Heighten is a metamagic feat, but its only use seems to be to power fiery burst. You really could pick what you need to enter Dweomerkeer as a sor4/cle1 and then be far more relaxed with your choices.
Planning could work, but like I said, I need a way to kill encounters by myself especially with sorcerer's extremely limited spell knowns. If you recommend me an alternative to fiery burst then yeah, it would free up 4 feats like you said :)

Rune domain gives me Scribe Scroll, but I might have a hard time justifying it with fluff. It would still let me qualify for dweomerkeeper as sor4/cle1. I haven't given much thought on the creation domain. Chose it only as a fluff thing.

Even if you do give me an alternative to fiery burst, you raise an interesting point. The cleric dip practically does nothing for me which is why I've been pushing it to the last possible moment. That and supernatural spell doesn't benefit me until level 7+ spells. On the other hand, what I want to do is already delayed by the cleric level so taking it earlier shouldn't impact me too much.



I don't think you can combine Versatile spellcaster with arcane preparation to "cheat" higher level 'fiery burst' (sigh...).
Oh no, this is to cheat planar binding. If I get a runestaff with lesser planar binding, I can start binding minions at level 8 with versatile spellcaster! Which is actually my main reason for taking the cleric dip later, after level 8.



Lastly, do you know that Dweomerkeeper is a FR class ? It's the class for clerics of Mystra. It has been reprinted in CD sup/ but it's undoubtly FR. Or do your DM allows Red Mage (since it's printed in the DMG) ?
He allows redmage, and yes he allows dweomerkeeper because it's in CD. He probably doesn't know dweomerkeeper or red mage are a FR classes, so lets keep that hush hush XD.



My advice : stay at 2d6 burst, pick a item creation at 3, cleric with magic/planning at 5 and Dweomerkeeper 6->15. Mantle of spells lets you pick then forget a spell as a sorcerer. Ancestral relic at 6 and spells known are no longer an issue (but you're 2 levels behind a wizard, bad for a "summoner").
I haven't thought about that. Mantle of spell basically lets you get 5 additional spell knowns right? Hmm. Is 2d6 good enough for levels 6-10? I feel like I have to beef it up whenever I can in order to keep up. Maybe I should delay versatile spellcaster to 9 and get craft wondrous item at 3. Actually, if I am taking a cleric dip at level 5, then versatile spellcaster times perfectly for me at level 9, which is when I can do the trick with the runestaff. Thanks a lot! You've given me a lot to think about.


If you're going to wait until high levels to make your golem, you might as well skip the feat and just wish one up, or at worst, wish up the body, then wish up a golem manual. Depending on what level you are, that might only take up half of your free wishes for the day.
Yeah, I havent decided entirely what I'll do higher levels. If I do get craft construct it'd be for fluff reasons if anything. But then again I'll be getting wish at level 19...


You might want to look at the 'summon ice beast' spells from Frostburn too, they basically call up an ice construct version of the 'summon monster' spells. The bigger they are, the more bonus HP they get from being a construct, and the more HD they have, the better their cone of cold ability gets.
They're divine only. :(


Have you considered playing a druid instead? You could start having buffable minions from level 1 instead of spending half of the game just surviving, waiting to become able to do what you want (+surviving will be easier).
I hate animals, with a passion I might add! I hate nature!!! I mean, I like cats and dogs so I don't really hate animals, but I just find animals not as cool as colossal metal constructs.


You don't need Arcane Preparation - just take a Fire spell of your highest level and use Versatile Spellcaster so you never run out
That's the problem here. Is taking fireball better than stinking cloud? I need to be economical here, most bang for my buck because my party is undermanned. On the other hand I do only need fiery burst to last until I'm level 11, so 4d6. Hmm... along with planning domain I could free up 2 feats...


If available drop Human and go for Silverbrow Human (DrM) instead.

You keep your bonus feat and get to be dragonblooded.

This is important for your ability to use Wings of Cover on your party members as well as yourself. Improves your survivability.

Special: A dragonblooded character, or a character with the dragon type, can provide cover for one additional adjacent ally for every three caster levels.

In my opinion, as a sorcerer, you should not focus all your spells towards Planar Binding. Maybe get some scrolls for your utility when doing your binding?
Silverbrow Human is nice! Thanks! The only reason I'm going sorcerer over wizard is independence to civilization. Relying on scrolls would defeat the purpose of going the class for me.


Charm Person + Diplomacy at Lv 1 to befriend and reform some random bandit or orc at lv 1 who you then hire at fair wages to be a bodyguard, replace as needed with knocked out survivors from enemy goons as needed.

once you can cast 2nd lv arcane spells grab command undead and go steal yourself some zombies, paying an evil cleric to create them for you if necessary
I tried this before. Charm spell's rulings have a lot of controversy on how far you can control them, and the minions you get from this tactic are too fragile to rely on, both the undead and the bandits, and depending on the setting, hard to replace too.

[Gildedragon]

Alienist might be suiting for you
Or refluffing the animals to be piddly constructs.
Also, early entry shadowcraft mage, trust me on this. You build the shadows into a monster and wham! Bam! You got all your needs covered. Yeah it might need some cheese but once you're there you can retrain the heighten shenanigans into more practical things.
They won't be as hard-hitting as real constructs BUT you will have more space for buffing and utility spells; and you will need utility if soloing.
Or spellpool mage.

[magicalmagicman]

Alienist might be suiting for you
Or refluffing the animals to be piddly constructs.
Also, early entry shadowcraft mage, trust me on this. You build the shadows into a monster and wham! Bam! You got all your needs covered. Yeah it might need some cheese but once you're there you can retrain the heighten shenanigans into more practical things.
They won't be as hard-hitting as real constructs BUT you will have more space for buffing and utility spells; and you will need utility if soloing.
Or spellpool mage.

Shadowcraft Mage is really nice but the race requirement is whats stopping this train. Just like how I hate animals, I hate gnomes, haflings, dwarves, and elves as well. Also lack of feat space due to fiery burst. In my opinion (which can be wrong), BFC + Fiery burst is the most economical (power wise) way to go, especially due to party being undermanned.

I'm looking up spellpool mage and alienist.

[Gildedragon]

I am not keen on gnomes either but in the book it says it should be adaptable to other races. Talk it with your DM. If you do go the shadow magic route consider the sorcerer sphere of Shadow (DrMzine 330). It hampers your light spells and gives you a CL boost to shadow spells. There is a creation one too but it hampers your summons
Feat space is a problem. But fiery burst is not the most useful reserve feat as fire is very resistible (talk with DM about this) and incorporeal enemies exist. Force is a better backup (though it needs a higher level).

Also remember damage isn't the only way to win an encounter. Avoid getting into fights early on (when alone).

Runestaff how does it compare to a planar binding knowstone?

[magicalmagicman]

Runestaff how does it compare to a planar binding knowstone?

One is dragon magazine (not allowed by my DM) and the other is magic item compendium.

[Troacctid]

I want to point out that even though you get Fiery Burst at level 1, you can't actually use it until level 4, as you don't know any 2nd level fire spells yet. (Remember, Precocious Apprentice doesn't give you any extra spells known.) So if that's your plan, you'll have to swap some things around.

[magicalmagicman]

I want to point out that even though you get Fiery Burst at level 1, you can't actually use it until level 4, as you don't know any 2nd level fire spells yet. (Remember, Precocious Apprentice doesn't give you any extra spells known.) So if that's your plan, you'll have to swap some things around.


Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell.

I think you're wrong here...

[Troacctid]

Nowhere in the feat does it say the spell you choose is added to your spells known. In fact, as soon as you become able to cast 2nd level spells (which, assuming you're going with the interpretation that allows you to use Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Fiery Burst, would be "Immediately after you first take the feat"), you lose the previous benefit of the feat, meaning your choice is totally irrelevant anyway. All you ever get from the feat is a bonus 2nd level spell slot and +2 to Spellcraft.

[magicalmagicman]

Nowhere in the feat does it say the spell you choose is added to your spells known. In fact, as soon as you become able to cast 2nd level spells (which, assuming you're going with the interpretation that allows you to use Precocious Apprentice to qualify for Fiery Burst, would be "Immediately after you first take the feat"), you lose the previous benefit of the feat, meaning your choice is totally irrelevant anyway. All you ever get from the feat is a bonus 2nd level spell slot and +2 to Spellcraft.

If I go with your interpretation, I'll just trade shield with a lesser orb of fire and go with a 1d6 fiery burst.

But I'm certain you are wrong.

1. The feat clearly includes sorcerers. Requirements includes arcane casters with charisma and mentions spontaneous casting.
2. You have a spell slot used solely to cast a chosen spell, and you choose a spell, so here are some interpretations

My initial interpretation: I get a spell known
Your interpretation: I only get a spell slot, and must grab a knowstone or a runestaff. Counter argument is, WotC usually makes it clear as a matter of fact when they don't let you do something. I am completely sure they would've said sorcerers don't benefit from this spell and can't cast the chosen spell without the aid of runestaves if that's what they meant.
My new interpretation: My chosen spell is not added to my spell known. I cannot do any shenanigans with it, but I can still cast it. I believe this feat allows any character to forcibly cast the chosen spell ignoring all requirements, such as needing it in your spellbook or it being a spell known, because nowhere in the feat does it say you need to know the spell or prepare the spell to cast it. I believe wizards can cast their chosen spell after resting without ever touching their spellbook. By RAW, you get one 2nd level spell slot used solely to cast a chosen spell and by RAW it doesn't say you need to know the spell to cast it, only that you can cast it.


Anyways that's my new interpretation. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, I will have to swap out grease for lesser orb of fire since I will lose combust when I hit level 4. If you have any objections to my new interpretation please say so, I'd like to hear it :)


Immediately after you first take the feat")
You make it sound like fighters can't grab cleave at first level.

[daryen]

The cleric dip practically does nothing for me which is why I've been pushing it to the last possible moment. That and supernatural spell doesn't benefit me until level 7+ spells. On the other hand, what I want to do is already delayed by the cleric level so taking it earlier shouldn't impact me too much.
You might want to consider taking the cleric level *first*, rather than last. The advantages to doing so are:
1) A cleric is much more durable than a sorcerer. Doing it at first level will only help you live to second level.
2) You get more armor and proficiency at the start, rather than later. Again, helps surviving first level.
3) You get more spells to play with in your first levels.
4) It helps with your background. If your character has been focused on one thing for their entire life, then takes a wild tangent for a level just for mechanical reasons, it breaks character. But, if you have the wild tangent at the beginning, it flows much more smoothly. The cleric was what your character first wanted to do, then changed their minds and did sorcerer instead. On "reverse" in direction is easier to explain than two, especially when you end up back on your original path.

I understand 4 extra HP and a few extra weapons aren't much, but that is still doubling your first level HP and lets you do that much more incremental damage while you are trying to survive those first few levels.

[Troacctid]

Well, here's the rub.


When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would.

All that stuff about choosing a spell and being able to cast it once a day? That's part of the benefit described above this paragraph in the feat. Meaning that at any point, if you are able to cast 2nd spells, you lose that ability. No, you don't need to know or prepare the spell to cast it using that part of the feat...but since you don't have that part of the feat, it doesn't matter--you just can't use it at all.

Now, you can argue that the initial benefit of the feat doesn't really count as being able to cast 2nd level spells. And that's fine. That's how the feat was obviously intended to work, and the dysfunction vanishes completely when you take that interpretation. But, of course, that leaves you with a different problem...


Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells.

If you're not able to cast 2nd level spells, you don't qualify for Fiery Burst. So, in order for the trick to work, we have to assume the dysfunctional reading of Precocious Apprentice. You don't get the extra 2nd level "pseudo-known" spell, you just get the extra 2nd level spell slot.

Well, that's fine. You never get Combust (not even for levels 1-3), but you have Heighten Spell anyway, so you can heighten one of your 1st level spells to 2nd level using your bonus spell slot and still qualify for the feat. (We'll ignore the possible reading that you need to have 2nd level spell slots before you can get an "extra" spell slot, because it's not very watertight and we're already assuming a reasonably permissive DM.)

Okay, so you have your Lesser Orb of Fire and you meet the prerequisites for Fiery Burst. Cool. You're getting +1 to your caster level with fire spells and feeling great. But now another issue arises, thanks to the way reserve feats work on spontaneous casters.


A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher.

You can cast a 2nd level fire spell just fine by heightening your 1st level spell, but you still only know a 1st level fire spell. And because you don't have Arcane Preparation, you can't just prepare it as a 2nd level spell and power your feat that way. You need to either be a prepared caster, or somehow gain a 2nd level fire spell as a proper known spell.

But once again, this is easy enough to solve: just delay Eschew Materials and move Arcane Preparation down to 1st level.

Honestly, though, if it were me, I would just forget about all the Precocious Apprentice nonsense, take my first level as a Cleric, switch my race to Azurin, and choose Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Winter's Blast, and Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces) as my starting feats. Use Versatile Spellcaster to prepare a Heightened Ice Slick or whatever to power Winter's Blast, and get right in the enemy's face to blast them with cold damage, secure in the knowledge that their dinky little goblin daggers will bounce right off my DR 4/magic. 2d4 isn't a ton of damage, but you still deal half on a miss, and it isn't that hard to hit two guys with it. Alternately, replace Winter's Blast with Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle) for a 2d6 damage touch attack--that works too, and gives me the option of taking Share Soulmeld to share it with my familiar. (The Incarnum domain provides an extra point of essentia so I can power them both, or I could just settle for DR 2/magic, which is also fine.)

[Gruftzwerg]

Take "Color Spray " at lvl1 instead of Shield. Shield is weak early and you already picked mage armor. Color Spray is the best control tool you'll have in the early levels.
And on lvl6 when it loses it effectiveness (due to enemy HD 5+), you can still exchange it to Shield (@lvl6 you may switch 1 lvl1 spell, keep that in mind. read the rulings for sorcerer spell exchange if you don't know).

[Malroth]

Just use the charm control to get them to sit calmly and think carefully about your sales pitch and just rely on being nice to them and paying them well to handle the rest. As for them being squishy, they only have to last till lv 3.

[Bronk]

Planning could work, but like I said, I need a way to kill encounters by myself especially with sorcerer's extremely limited spell knowns. If you recommend me an alternative to fiery burst then yeah, it would free up 4 feats like you said :)

Rune domain gives me Scribe Scroll, but I might have a hard time justifying it with fluff. It would still let me qualify for dweomerkeeper as sor4/cle1. I haven't given much thought on the creation domain. Chose it only as a fluff thing.

Even if you do give me an alternative to fiery burst, you raise an interesting point. The cleric dip practically does nothing for me which is why I've been pushing it to the last possible moment. That and supernatural spell doesn't benefit me until level 7+ spells. On the other hand, what I want to do is already delayed by the cleric level so taking it earlier shouldn't impact me too much.

He allows redmage, and yes he allows dweomerkeeper because it's in CD. He probably doesn't know dweomerkeeper or red mage are a FR classes, so lets keep that hush hush XD.

Yeah, I havent decided entirely what I'll do higher levels. If I do get craft construct it'd be for fluff reasons if anything. But then again I'll be getting wish at level 19...

They're divine only. :(


Putting all of this together... have you considered going straight cleric instead, or at least straight divine?

You can be a cleric of Boccob, and in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, he's listed as having, among others, the Rune, Magic and Spell domains. That, and the 'substitute domain' spell from Complete Champion, is enough to get you Rune for the one time you need to scribe a scroll, as well as Anyspell, for your arcane spells. Then, pick up a level of Contemplative at level 11 to pick up the Envy domain for limited wish and Wish, and you could be free wishing at level 17 instead of 19.

[magicalmagicman]

@Troacctid
I lost you :(

Let me see if I understand you.
Precocious Apprentice:
1. Gives me a 2nd level spell slot that cannot be used for anything (not even arcane preparation, because the feat description clearly says you can use this spell slot ONLY for the chosen spell).
2. For easy understanding, lets say it also gives me a supernatural ability to cast combust by expending a 2nd level spell slot and passing a DC 8 spellcraft check.
3. Combust is NOT in my spell knowns.

Fiery Burst
1. Requires the ability to cast a 2nd level spell (PASSED). I can cast Combust, it's a 2nd level spell, so I pass even though I don't know it.

However in order to use Fiery Burst
1. Sorcerers must KNOW an appropriate spell in order to use it for Fiery Burst
2. Sorcerer here does NOT know Combust, so can't do a 2d6 Fiery Burst
3. If the sorcerer does know Lesser Orb of Fire at level 1, she can at least use that to power a 1d6 Fiery Burst

Am I correct?

And yeah, at this point, it really seems like retraining precocious apprentice is the best option as soon as I hit level 4, but my DM might say no because it disqualifies Fiery Burst at level 1, so he might argue if I want to retrain precocious apprentice, I have to retrain fiery burst first.

I might get cleric level 2 so i can wear full plate + tower shield and just fiery burst everything since that doesn't have ACF. Then again, my sorcerer could probably just take the armor check penalty as long as the setting doesn't require climbing, jumping, etc.

EDIT: Because the level 2 spell no longer requires to be a fire type, I'm a grab alter self! +12 ac at level 1! Yay! +16ac if I grab a tower shield and just take the armor check penalty!

[Gildedragon]

A practical way around things is to talk to your GM about your soloing concerns.

For spellpool magic: feats:
Any Metamagic, arcane preparation, Cooperative Spell
And you enter at level 6

Now if you are less than dead-set on sorcerer but still want to play a caster: eldritch theurge can give you blasting powers and spells.

Effigy Master is a construct creator type that might be beneficial. Though you do lose 1 casting level

Wizard is not a terrible choice either. There are ways to make a wizard sort of spontaneous and ways to fluff away anything you dislike of the wizard (except the more limited spell slots)

[magicalmagicman]

Putting all of this together... have you considered going straight cleric instead, or at least straight divine?

You can be a cleric of Boccob, and in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, he's listed as having, among others, the Rune, Magic and Spell domains. That, and the 'substitute domain' spell from Complete Champion, is enough to get you Rune for the one time you need to scribe a scroll, as well as Anyspell, for your arcane spells. Then, pick up a level of Contemplative at level 11 to pick up the Envy domain for limited wish and Wish, and you could be free wishing at level 17 instead of 19.

Wow, just wow. Too bad spell domain and envy domain are forgotten realms >.<, but still, wow, everything I wanted is right in there... Wish, limited wish, simulacrum, anyspell for lesser planar binding, all at the same time as my sorcerer build too.


Take "Color Spray " at lvl1 instead of Shield. Shield is weak early and you already picked mage armor. Color Spray is the best control tool you'll have in the early levels.
And on lvl6 when it loses it effectiveness (due to enemy HD 5+), you can still exchange it to Shield (@lvl6 you may switch 1 lvl1 spell, keep that in mind. read the rulings for sorcerer spell exchange if you don't know).

Had to get lesser orb of fire for Fiery Burst.

[Troacctid]

@Troacctid
I lost you :(

Let me see if I understand you.
Precocious Apprentice:
1. Gives me a 2nd level spell slot that cannot be used for anything (not even arcane preparation, because the feat description clearly says you can use this spell slot ONLY for the chosen spell).
2. For easy understanding, lets say it also gives me a supernatural ability to cast combust by expending a 2nd level spell slot and passing a DC 8 spellcraft check.
3. Combust is NOT in my spell knowns.
#1 is false. The restriction on what you can cast out of the 2nd level spell slot is lifted once you become able to cast 2nd level spells. It just becomes a normal 2nd level spell slot.

#2 is also false. It is still a spell, not a supernatural ability, so it still has its normal components, requires concentration, and so on. Also, remember, you only have the ability to cast Combust once per day with the DC 8 Spellcraft check for as long as you are unable to cast 2nd level spells. When you are able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose that benefit.

Maybe it would help clarify things to ask yourself: Am I able to cast 2nd level spells? Because there's no real middle ground--either you are or you aren't.
If yes: You lose all the benefits described in the first paragraph of Precocious Apprentice. You no longer have any access to the spell you chose, and the whole rigmarole of the Spellcraft check and whatnot is replaced by what is essentially Extra Slot (2nd level).
If no: You have all the benefits described in the first paragraph of Precocious Apprentice. You can cast your Combust once per day by succeeding on the check and blah blah blah. However, you also do not meet the "Able to cast 2nd level spells" prerequisite of Fiery Burst.
"But if I lose the ability to cast Combust, doesn't that mean I can no longer cast 2nd level spells, and therefore I regain the ability to cast Combust, which means I lose it again, and so on?" Good question. The answer is, since you have Heighten Spell, you don't lose the ability to cast 2nd level spells. The bonus 2nd level spell slot allows you to heighten a 1st level spell to meet the prerequisite, nice and tidy.

But what if you didn't have Heighten Spell? Well, then you would, in fact, lose the ability to cast 2nd level spells, yes. It wouldn't cause a loop, though, because there's no way to regain the primary benefit of Precocious Apprentice once it is lost; you lose the ability to cast Combust, and you don't regain it, and that's that.


Fiery Burst
1. Requires the ability to cast a 2nd level spell (PASSED). I can cast Combust, it's a 2nd level spell, so I pass even though I don't know it.
You can't cast Combust. You lost that benefit when you became able to cast 2nd level spells.


However in order to use Fiery Burst
1. Sorcerers must KNOW an appropriate spell in order to use it for Fiery Burst
2. Sorcerer here does NOT know Combust, so can't do a 2d6 Fiery Burst
3. If the sorcerer does know Lesser Orb of Fire at level 1, she can at least use that to power a 1d6 Fiery Burst

Am I correct?
#3 is incorrect. You have to know a spell of the appropriate level, so a 1st level spell doesn't count. There is no 1d6 Fiery Burst; 2d6 is the minimum.

Prepared casters have it easier. They can prepare a 1st level spell heightened to 2nd level and have it count. That's why Arcane Preparation fixes the problem--if you prepare spells, you can use the wizard rules instead of the sorcerer rules, so it doesn't matter what level the spell is in your spells known list, only what level it is as you've prepared it.


I might get cleric level 2 so i can wear full plate + tower shield and just fiery burst everything since that doesn't have ACF. Then again, my sorcerer could probably just take the armor check penalty as long as the setting doesn't require climbing, jumping, etc.
Note that if you're not proficient with armor, its check penalty applies to all Dexterity checks, including initiative. Full plate is fine, since clerics get heavy armor, but the tower shield will still tank your initiative to the tune of -10. So if you do this, be prepared to go last.


Wow, just wow. Too bad spell domain and envy domain are forgotten realms >.<, but still, wow, everything I wanted is right in there... Wish, limited wish, simulacrum, anyspell for lesser planar binding, all at the same time as my sorcerer build too.
Both domains are from Spell Compendium, which is setting-neutral.

[magicalmagicman]

#1 is false. The restriction on what you can cast out of the 2nd level spell slot is lifted once you become able to cast 2nd level spells. It just becomes a normal 2nd level spell slot.

#2 is also false. It is still a spell, not a supernatural ability, so it still has its normal components, requires concentration, and so on. Also, remember, you only have the ability to cast Combust once per day with the DC 8 Spellcraft check for as long as you are unable to cast 2nd level spells. When you are able to cast 2nd level spells, you lose that benefit.

-SNIP-



Um, I think we're not on the same page here. o_o

The only thing I care about is casting fiery burst starting at level 1, so i was asking only about levels 1-3. Level 4+ I don't care, I have lesser orb of fire, heighten spell, and arcane preparation.

Levels 1-3 = 1d6 fiery burst because I think we established combust won't power my fiery burst, which is why I decided to get alter self instead!
Levels 4+ = 2d6+ fiery burst with heighten spell and blah blah blah. At this level I lose alter self, but gain alter self because I'm choosing it as my first level 2 spell :D

Anyways the big question I was arguing is, can sorcerers get fiery burst at level 1 with precocious apprentice even though she doesn't have a level 2 spell known?
And I think we agree that the answer is yes.



Both domains are from Spell Compendium, which is setting-neutral.

Sweet! Awesome! My google fu must be absolutely terrible...

Anyways there are a few additional reasons why I pick sorcerer over wizard or cleric.

Main reason I don't roll a wizard (though I heavily considered it, hence the thread flooding) is they are helpless without money and equipment. It shouldn't matter in most adventures but it bothers me. Especially because I think being stuck in a post-apocalyptic world is a real threat with my DM, and a wizard without his spellbook in a post apocalyptic world is useless unless we allow eidetic spellcaster from dragon magazine, which he won't, because he hates dragon magazine.

Main reason I don't roll a cleric is honestly, forgotten realms. Even though the setting is not forgotten realms, I picture all of my characters traveling to every realm, and when a cleric enters forgotten realms, BAM! He has to start begging a deity for spells, doing its gruntwork, and I don't have free choice of domains. At least my wizard and sorcerer will have golems and constructs to save them from dead magic zones. I dunno, it just bothers me.

Which is why I go sorcerer! Weaker than both wizard and cleric, but most independent of the three.

[Gruftzwerg]

Had to get lesser orb of fire for Fiery Burst.

? Excuse me but doesn't Fiery Burst need a 2nd lvl spell? (and orb of fire is a 1st lvl one)

I would even think about ditching Mage Armor for the first 5 levels instead and go for Color Spray. Mage armor is defensive only and only one target per cast that benefits.
Color Spray can be used defensively and offensive and your party members profit from it too.

And imho, take "Burning Hands" instead of lesser Orb of Fire. Together with Color Spray you can start to be AoE control and AoE blast sorcerer right from the start at lvl1. Shall all kobold, goblins and orks fear your might :smallwink:

[Gildedragon]

Arcane Preparation feat lets you prepare the Luminous Armor spells which are amazing (despite the Str sacrifice)

[magicalmagicman]

? Excuse me but doesn't Fiery Burst need a 2nd lvl spell? (and orb of fire is a 1st lvl one)

I would even think about ditching Mage Armor for the first 5 levels instead and go for Color Spray. Mage armor is defensive only and only one target per cast that benefits.
Color Spray can be used defensively and offensive and your party members profit from it too.

And imho, take "Burning Hands" instead of lesser Orb of Fire. Together with Color Spray you can start to be AoE control and AoE blast sorcerer right from the start at lvl1. Shall all kobold, goblins and orks fear your might :smallwink:

No, you only need to be able to cast 2nd level spells.

For the past several posts, Troacctid and I have been discussing a way to get Fiery Burst at level one. There's a feat called precocious apprentice that gives 1st level arcane casters the ability to cast a 2nd level spell, thus allowing them to get one fiery burst at level 1.

We've also been arguing if we can use that 2nd level spell (combust) to power fiery burst, but the conclusion I think we reached is that we can't, which is why I got lesser orb of fire, and instead of getting combust as my bonus 2nd level spell, I decided to go with atler self.

What I'm trying to do might be a little confusing to you because of its complexity XD, but basically right now I am going to use that alter self spell + mage armor at level 1 to get an astonishing +12ac, and just kill everything with fiery burst without them even being able to lay a finger with me. Maybe even grab a tower shield even though I'm not proficient with it to be virtually untouchable at those levels. Who cares if I go last, as long as I'm unkillable ;D


Arcane Preparation feat lets you prepare the Luminous Armor spells which are amazing (despite the Str sacrifice)

Can you elaborate what you're trying to say? I know that spell is the defacto ZOMG AWESOME spell for abjurant champions, but how does it benefit my sorcerer?

[Gildedragon]

No, you only need to be able to cast 2nd level spells.

For the past several posts, Troacctid and I have been discussing a way to get Fiery Burst at level one. There's a feat called precocious apprentice that gives 1st level arcane casters the ability to cast a 2nd level spell, thus allowing them to get one fiery burst at level 1.

We've also been arguing if we can use that 2nd level spell (combust) to power fiery burst, but the conclusion I think we reached is that we can't, which is why I got lesser orb of fire, and instead of getting combust as my bonus 2nd level spell, I decided to go with atler self.

What I'm trying to do might be a little confusing to you because of its complexity XD, but basically right now I am going to use that alter self spell + mage armor at level 1 to get an astonishing +12ac, and just kill everything with fiery burst without them even being able to lay a finger with me. Maybe even grab a tower shield even though I'm not proficient with it to be virtually untouchable at those levels. Who cares if I go last, as long as I'm unkillable ;D



Can you elaborate what you're trying to say? I know that spell is the defacto ZOMG AWESOME spell for abjurant champions, but how does it benefit my sorcerer?

Buff: +5 AC
Debuff: +4 penalty on melee attacks done to hit you (for an effective +9AC v melee)
Utility: as a Daylight spell, counters all level 2 or lower [darkness] spell; but does not have a [light] descriptor; magical darkness spells don't make it stop glowing

Greater LA
as above but gives +8 AC

it takes care of 2 common often used spells (light and armor) and armors you up great if you are soloing and doing close combat damage.

[magicalmagicman]

Buff: +5 AC
Debuff: +4 penalty on melee attacks done to hit you (for an effective +9AC v melee)
Utility: as a Daylight spell, counters all level 2 or lower [darkness] spell; but does not have a [light] descriptor; magical darkness spells don't make it stop glowing

Greater LA
as above but gives +8 AC

it takes care of 2 common often used spells (light and armor) and armors you up great if you are soloing and doing close combat damage.

I don't see it listed as a sor/wiz spell, only as a spell exclusively for sanctified domain.

[Gruftzwerg]

No, you only need to be able to cast 2nd level spells.

For the past several posts, Troacctid and I have been discussing a way to get Fiery Burst at level one. There's a feat called precocious apprentice that gives 1st level arcane casters the ability to cast a 2nd level spell, thus allowing them to get one fiery burst at level 1.

We've also been arguing if we can use that 2nd level spell (combust) to power fiery burst, but the conclusion I think we reached is that we can't, which is why I got lesser orb of fire, and instead of getting combust as my bonus 2nd level spell, I decided to go with atler self.


yeah I did read it up now. getting late here, but I did get it now^^.

Still, I think that Color Spray is still the better defense for the lower lvls. The entire party benefits (+ possible coup de grace if enemies have <=2 HD) and you can render several enemies helpless at once for several rounds. But maybe that my personal preference. And on the other hand, I also played a few of the armor stacking mage gishes ^^. So go for that what will bring you more joy^^

[Gildedragon]

I don't see it listed as a sor/wiz spell, only as a spell exclusively for sanctified domain.

Sanctified isn't a domain
Any non evil spellcaster can know and (important part) prepare them, except clerics who can cast them spontaneously; but as it is a second level spell, the cleric 1 dip doesn't help

[magicalmagicman]

Sanctified isn't a domain
Any non evil spellcaster can know and (important part) prepare them, except clerics who can cast them spontaneously; but as it is a second level spell, the cleric 1 dip doesn't help

I don't know where I got domain from.

Yeah I'm gonna grab it, gonna swap one of my early spells out for it. It's also an awesome buff on my minions who only have natural armor and is always in melee!

[Troacctid]

Um, I think we're not on the same page here. o_o

The only thing I care about is casting fiery burst starting at level 1, so i was asking only about levels 1-3. Level 4+ I don't care, I have lesser orb of fire, heighten spell, and arcane preparation.
You gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells at level 1, thanks to Precocious Apprentice. That's the whole point of it, yeah? But that means you lose access to Combust at level 1, not level 4. You need Arcane Preparation at the start in order for it to work.


Levels 1-3 = 1d6 fiery burst because I think we established combust won't power my fiery burst, which is why I decided to get alter self instead!
Levels 4+ = 2d6+ fiery burst with heighten spell and blah blah blah. At this level I lose alter self, but gain alter self because I'm choosing it as my first level 2 spell :D
Or, I guess, if you choose Alter Self instead of Combust, then you lose Alter Self at level 1.

Basically, you can't say you're able to cast 2nd level spells to qualify for Fiery Burst, but then turn around and say you're not able to cast 2nd level spells to prevent you from losing your free Alter Self.


Anyways the big question I was arguing is, can sorcerers get fiery burst at level 1 with precocious apprentice even though she doesn't have a level 2 spell known?
And I think we agree that the answer is yes.
Well, yes, buuuuut only when combined with certain other feats. Again, adding Heighten Spell and Arcane Preparation is what allows it to work. A Bloodline feat would also do it, if there were one that gave you an appropriate spell. (For Fiery Burst, there isn't, but it works for some of the other reserve feats.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you are planning on cleric 1/sorcerer casting 9, I would lead with the cloistered cleric level, for a bunch of skill points. Then, I would look at early entry into Mystic Theurge, at least for levels 4-5, because of that heightening/Fiery Burst trick you're doing anyway. After that, incantatrix 4 and dweomerkeeper 10, in any order which suits you. No point getting sorcerer levels 5-9, in any case.

[magicalmagicman]

Basically, you can't say you're able to cast 2nd level spells to qualify for Fiery Burst, but then turn around and say you're not able to cast 2nd level spells to prevent you from losing your free Alter Self.

Ohhhhhh I get what you're saying. That is a great point. Also I missed this in fiery burst...


As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast,

So Gruftzwerg was right. I was wrong. Lesser orb of fire doesn't let me use fiery burst even if I have the feat.

I feel like a lawyer now. Changing defenses. Now I go back to the defense that combust allows me to qualify and cast fiery burst.

Being able to gain the 2nd level spell and lose it at level 1 is retarded. The feat will never work that way, but now I understand why you think arcane preparation lets it work.

SO LETS BE CLEAR HERE.

There are three abilities to cast 2nd level spells
1. Ability to cast 2nd level spells through precocious apprentice
2. Ability to cast 2nd level spells through high enough level.
3. Ability to cast 2nd level spells through scrolls.


Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells,
Precocious Apprentice grants #1, and requires #2 to be removed. #3 is there for my next argument, and #3 does NOT end Precocious Apprentice's benefits, as it clearly states it requires #2.

NOW LETS LOOK AT FIERY BURST
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells. PASSED BECAUSE I HAVE #1, and the prerequisite doesn't specifically state it requires #2, unlike precocious apprentice, which specifically states it does. I have the ability to cast one 2nd-level spell, so one can argue that I don't qualify because I can't cast 2 different 2nd level spells, but seeing how sorcerers can qualify for this feat at level 4, I SAY HOGWASH TO THAT! (consider a 2 wizard/4 sorcerer at level 6, this sorcerer can only cast 1 level 2 spell, but he qualifies so the plurality of the word spells doesn't matter!)

I am warning all you nay sayers. If you dare tell me that the S in that word spells matters, I will invoke the#3 saying that any character that can cast level 2 spells through scrolls has the ability to cast level 2 spells. This statement is correct by RAW.


As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast
Means Combust qualifies and powers my fiery burst! THERE IS NOTHING IN THE FEAT DESCRIPTION SAYING THAT THE SPELL NEEDS TO BE ON MY SPELL KNOWN LIST.

NOW I found the quote in complete mage you were referencing:

A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher.

But we all know how WotC doesn't include specific paragraphs of special cases, especially ones created in other books, and this quote is in the general overall introduction section. When we put all this together, it means if it is NOT IN THE FEAT DESCRIPTION, IT DOESN'T MEAN ****.

SO INCONCLUSION
1. Ruling Purely by RAW, I qualify for fiery burst at level 1 thanks to the scroll thing
2. If you say the scroll thing doesn't work because of WotC's awkward wording, I will invoke the same reason to argue my case, which means
3. No matter what, Pure RAW or interpretation, I CAN USE FIERY BURST AT LEVEL 1

QED I can throw around 2d6 fiery bursts with precocious apprentice and choosing the combust spell, and I can argue this to my DM, and I will win the argument!

The END!

@Troacctid
I'm sorry how I explained what I just explained. I am just frustrated >.<. Please don't feel insulted/aggravated and continue to argue your case. I wanna be rock solid. Level 1 fiery burst is literally the entire foundation of my character because sorcerers can't grab it at level 3, so if this fails, I will have to switch class, probably to cleric the nice gentlemen built for me.

[Troacctid]

Being able to gain the 2nd level spell and lose it at level 1 is retarded. The feat will never work that way, but now I understand why you think arcane preparation lets it work.
The way it's intended to work is for it not to count as being able to cast 2nd level spells. Meaning you can't use it for early entry or early qualification. Under that reading, there is no dysfunction, and it works pretty logically. After all, you can cast 2nd level spells out of a wand--does that mean any 1st level Wizard can take Fiery Burst, even without Precocious Apprentice? Most people would say no. That's how the feat was meant to work. So, if you want it to make sense, run it that way. Of course, that also means you can't abuse it for early entry tricks. Them's the breaks.


SO LETS BE CLEAR HERE.

There are two abilities to cast 2nd level spells
1. Ability to cast 2nd level spells through precocious apprentice
2. Ability to cast 2nd level spells through high enough level.

Precocious Apprentice grants #1, and requires #2 to be removed.

NOW LETS LOOK AT FIERY BURST
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells. PASSED BECAUSE I HAVE #1, and the prerequisite doesn't specifically state it requires #2, unlike precocious apprentice, which specifically states it does.
Woah, woah, hold up on that last bit. Where does Precocious Apprentice make this specific statement? That's not in the feat I'm reading. And why are we reading that Precocious Apprentice requires your #2, but Fiery Burst somehow doesn't? That seems inconsistent, don't you think?


Means Combust qualifies and powers my fiery burst! THERE IS NOTHING IN THE FEAT DESCRIPTION SAYING THAT THE SPELL NEEDS TO BE ON MY SPELL KNOWN LIST.
Fiery Burst requires a 2nd level spell "available to cast." So how do you define "available to cast"? Or, more relevantly, how do the rules define "available to cast"?

In fact, as it turns out, the rules do define "available to cast" (and they even call out that they're doing it, like, hey, here's the definition of "available to cast"). as having a spell of that level as a spell known and having an available spell slot of that level or higher.


and I can argue this to my DM, and I will win the argument!
I guess I can't argue with that.

[magicalmagicman]

@Troacctid

Ok you persuaded me. I can't have it both ways. Entire build is dead. Good bye.

I'm gonna go reasses everything again.

Precocious Apprentice makes it very clear that you don't have the "ability to cast 2nd level spells" by the quote

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells

[Troacctid]

I mean, you could easily replace it with Versatile Spellcaster. *shrug*

[magicalmagicman]

I mean, you could easily replace it with Versatile Spellcaster. *shrug*

I don't understand this part. Please explain. How does versatile spellcaster give me early access to fiery burst?

[Troacctid]

1. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell to cast 2nd level spells at 1st level
2. Add Arcane Preparation to make it a prepared spell so it works with reserve feats
3. Profit

It's easier if you have Cleric as your 1st level class so that you don't need Arcane Preparation. Then you could still get Eschew Materials at 1st. 'Course, Clerics don't get any 1st level Fire spells without a domain, so you'd be stuck with Winter's Bite, but it's close enough, right?

Edit: The other upside is that this also gets you 2nd level divine spells, so you can go Cleric 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Dweomerkeeper X. Slightly better casting!

[magicalmagicman]

1. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell to cast 2nd level spells at 1st level
2. Add Arcane Preparation to make it a prepared spell so it works with reserve feats
3. Profit

It's easier if you have Cleric as your 1st level class so that you don't need Arcane Preparation. Then you could still get Eschew Materials at 1st. 'Course, Clerics don't get any 1st level Fire spells without a domain, so you'd be stuck with Winter's Bite, but it's close enough, right?

Edit: The other upside is that this also gets you 2nd level divine spells, so you can go Cleric 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge 2/Dweomerkeeper X.

But there is no 2nd level spell slot to arcane preparation it. No slot = no arcane preparation no? It is my understanding by RAW you can't versatile spell your way into a 2nd level slot.

[HunterOfJello]

Pretty much everyone who reads Precocious Apprentice interprets it as giving you 1 spell known and 1 spell slot to cast it from at level 1. I think that's also the intention of the feat as it was written.

I also don't think it's an overpowered feat or an unrealistic one to have in the game via the common interpretation.

[Gildedragon]

1. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell to cast 2nd level spells at 1st level
2. Add Arcane Preparation to make it a prepared spell so it works with reserve feats
3. Profit

It doesn't work with Arcane Preparation; arcane preparation needs a spell slot, versatile spellcaster only allows you to cast, doesn't give one a slot

[Troacctid]

Eh, it's not ironclad, but at least it's ambiguous. Versatile Spellcaster doesn't change your normal spellcasting parameters aside from the ability to use two lower-level slots to cast a spell one level higher, so if you prepare spells without it, then when you use it, you'll still prepare the spells. Probably, anyway. That's how it works on Wizards, at least.

Really, the bigger concern should be whether Clerics have known spells.

[magicalmagicman]

Eh, it's not ironclad, but at least it's ambiguous. Versatile Spellcaster doesn't change your normal spellcasting parameters aside from the ability to use two lower-level slots to cast a spell one level higher, so if you prepare spells without it, then when you use it, you'll still prepare the spells. Probably, anyway. That's how it works on Wizards, at least.

Really, the bigger concern should be whether Clerics have known spells.

I'm surprised you think that way.


For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.


A prepared spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats.

That's how I know it won't work with Precocious Apprentice as well. Precocious Apprentice's spell slot cannot be used for anything other than the chosen spell, so Arcane Preparation can't use it, and Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a spell slot, it just allows a higher level to use lower level slots as fuel.

[Troacctid]

Well, Versatile Spellcaster is hard to read, RAW-wise, because it assumes you only take it if you're a single-class Sorcerer and you cast all your spells spontaneously. But if you're a Wizard with the Spontaneous Divination ability, or even just a multiclass Sorcerer/Wizard, the way it's written suddenly makes less sense, because its wording doesn't really jive with the traditional phrasing of spontaneous casting abilities like those of the Cleric and Druid.

I argue that Versatile Spellcaster allows you to change two things about how you cast spells: the number of slots used for a single spell, and the level of those slots. Nothing in there changes anything else about how you cast spells. So if you're a Spontaneous Divination Wizard, you can sacrifice two 2nd level prepared spells to spontaneously cast a 3rd level divination spell, or you can use two 2nd level spell slots to prepare a 3rd level spell that you know, but you can't sacrifice two 2nd level spells to spontaneously cast any 3rd level spell you know.

From there, if you grant that it works that way for a Wizard, I think it's reasonable to extend that to a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation, under the assumption that Arcane Preparation is basically using shorthand for the standard rules for preparing spells. Of course, if you don't assume that Arcane Preparation is using shorthand for the standard rules for preparing spells, then it's a nonbo. That's fair. But I'm betting that not assuming that normal rules for spell prep can apply to Arcane Preparation would probably break something somewhere else.

[magicalmagicman]

Actually I think that for sorcerer/wizard case I think it's either
1. A wizard can sacrifice 2 prepared spells to spontaneously cast any 1 level higher spell that he knows. ANY. So he can become a sorcerer. OR
2. Only works with spontaneous class spells, and clerics/druids don't cast as spontaneous.

I'd rule #2 actually, because by RAW its #1 because there is absolutely no mention of higher level spell slots anywhere. Sacrifice 2 to cast a spell, no new preparation or anything, just sacrifice and cast.